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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:38 AM
Original message
Sympathy for Dean from Unexpected Quarter.
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 11:43 AM by Tom Rinaldo
Me. Last night I went to bed angry at Dean for several reasons. This morning I mulled it over some over some coffee, and developed more sympathy for Dean. The anger, in a nutshell, is over my impression that increasingly Dean is running against the majority of the Democratic Party almost as strenuously as he is running against Bush. Intellectually I know that this is an "emotional reality", not an objective one, but many of Dean's recent statements have fed into those emotions.

Plus I had just read where a Dean spokesperson had directed a pointed and distorted attack at Clark. I read the attack in this article:
"Clark Is First to Use Bill Clinton in Ad"
By LIZ SIDOTI
Associated Press Writer
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-clark-ad,0,5158245,print.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

The article is about Clark's new short TV ad in which a few second visual shows Clinton placing the Presidential Medal of Freedom around Clark's neck for his service to America and NATO in the Kosovo war. Clark won that award, I think it is fair politics to show him receiving it from the only President we had at the time. What's so controversial about that? Spokesmen for both Kerry and Dean saw it differently though, with both choosing the occasion to assert that a visual association with Clinton can't wipe away Clark's prior support for some Republicans. OK, so that bothered me. Clark was minding his own business, promoting himself and justifiably taking pride in a high honor received. No negative attacks on any Democrat in Clark's ad. None, Zilch, and then this?

But then Dean's spokesperson went a step further, in essence he lied about Clark. Here's the quote: "Jay Carson, a Dean spokesman, said the ad "doesn't make up for a lifetime of voting Republican. We're looking forward to seeing the Nixon-Reagan-Bush-Rumsfeld-Cheney ad." Clark has been voting Democratic for at least the last 15 years. He actually voted for the guy who gave him that medal, twice. A lifetime of voting Republican? And where was Clark saying anything negative about Dean or anyone else that justified such an acid response? This attack comes on the very same week that Dean complained that Democratic candidates should be stooped from attacking him. Anyway, that's what fired up my simmering but increasing resentment about the tone and direction of Dean's recent campaigning.

So where is my sympathy, and why do I have any? I sympathize with Dean for having to constantly defend himself against the charge that he can't get elected President. How does someone come back against that type of "end of discussion" charge? "Yes I can" is the obvious reply, but it lacks power, and fails to persuade. Of course Dean would think he can win, but all of the knowledgeable people know better; that's the dynamic that gets put in play here. There is no way for Dean to prove that he is right and that the charge is wrong, not until AFTER the Election if he gets the nomination, and that will be too late to help Dean in the primaries against his critics. I am reminded in small part of the empty Shelton slur against Clark's "character and integrity". The assertion is so nebulous that nothing can be said to totally negate it. At least Dean can get some of his opponents to detail some of the reasons why they think he can't get elected, as opposed to Clark trying to confront Shelton's Sphinx, but the quandary remains. It is a charge that by nature can not be refuted.

Furthermore it is a charge that should never be leveled against any Democrat who has shown an ability to mobilize hundreds of thousands of supporters to his side, surging past recognized party leaders in the process. It is an insulting charge, both to Dean and to those who work for him. It is a self defeating charge for Democrats to slap on a man who is drawing more support than any other current Democratic candidate. It is a terrible admission of weakness to think such a candidate has no hope of prevailing in the Fall. No wonder many in Dean's camp are so incensed at "the Party Establishment".

Does that mean that I believe that the issue of relative "electibility" should be taken off the table? No, certainly not. Every candidate must present himself as the man or woman who can defeat Bush in the Fall, and Democratic voters have to decide who they think is correct about that. Sometimes I make the case for why I think it will be easier for Clark to win the Fall Election than Dean, and I think that is fair politics. It focuses the discussion on the nuts and bolts of each man's relative strengths and weaknesses with the general electorate and with the party base. It's a good debate, and a timely one. But I never say Dean can't get elected. I say I will fight for him if he gets the nomination.

What does it do when some of us frame Dean's candidacy as "suicidal" for the Party? Well, besides possibly wounding our potential nominee, it pushs Dean to argue not on the merits of his positions, not on his record as Governor, not even on the specific failings of some of his individual opponents. It forces Dean to argue that conventional wisdom is wrong, which by definition forces Dean to adapt more of an outsider anti-establishment position. It forces Dean to stress what he has going for him that no one else does, how he alone is positioned to bring victory for the Democrats in the Fall. What good does it do for Dean to defend his record on the Environment, if all he gets in return is; "It doesn't matter, you don't stand a chance against Bush"?

I am alarmed by some of Deans recent comments about "the Republican wing of the Democratic Party" and about how the movement supporting him can't be counted on to back any other Democrat in the Fall election (Quick aside: Yes that is literally true. Supporters are free agents with free will, but a candidate talking that way feeds those tendencies. Candidates for President present themselves as leaders. Leaders can actively work to influence supporters toward party loyalty, as opposed to ruminating about their primary loyalty to the candidate). However significant elements in the Party are pushing Dean down that path. If some of us claim that Dean is sure to lose the war, Dean is sure to brag about his unique "secret weapon" that will bring victory to him and him alone. We are engaged in a polarizing dynamic, and it would be better if we all stopped feeding into it.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. No sympathy here n/t
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. I can't wait to go to my Dean House Party tonight.
I'm giving another $100 and my daughter will donate for the first time ever too!

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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. Me too!
And I'll give another $100 tonight.

One thing I believe sincerely. If Dean had not started swinging at Bush from the beginning, all of the other candidates but Kucinich and Sharpton would still be trying to out-bush Bush.

All the DLC and the "other" wing of the party did in 2002 was talk about how much they agreed with this guy. Why would anyone want to vote for a artificial Republican, when they can get a real one?

I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party, and I want my country back!:mad:

The RNC talking points are "Howard Dean is unelectable." and "We can't wait to run against this guy."

Keep focusing on the issues, and the candidates story. Don't let the RNC frame the debate. Don't let the whoremedia define the candidates. Otherwise we're all losers.I admire Kucinich for letting Koppel have it a couple of weeks ago. With all of the problems facing the country, we've got more important things to concentrate on.

I work a few hours per week in our local Democratic HQ. I have Republicans calling all of the time wanting Dean buttons, and stickers. And the reason is not that they want to run against him, it's because they're horrified by this administration. They thought they were getting a "compassionate conservative

:wtf: and they got a bunch of far right wing lunatics. And this is in a fairly conservative area Florida:spank:




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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. No sympathy here either, but I will admit...
that Dean's teflon has worn off with the media. It's good to see him endure the same level of scrutiny thrusted upon Clark from minute one.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. But I thought your guy wasn't getting an media attention
Just where is this "scrutiny" coming from, DU?
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Clark deserves more scrutiny from the media
He's more of a doppleganger than a Democrat.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I find your comment oh so helpful in the context of this thread n/t
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. Watch out, Tom...
Expressing "sympathy" for Howard Dean may get you kicked out of the official Clark supporter "Anybody but Dean" club. LOL.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. Another nicely cloaked attack on Howard Dean
Do you guys EVER tire of this? I must say that you all are getting better at cloaking them, though. I like the tactic of your piece above - "Sympathy for Howard", then buried deep in your article that same line (to avoid being locked for impertinence) which ends up being a slap at Dean instead.

The bad news is, Dean's supporters like myself are well aware of this tactic. It not only doesn't work, it won't win any people away from Howard Dean; as the recent history at DU should reveal to you.


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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. explain what you mean please
Are you talking about me thinking it is easier to elect Clark than Dean? I assume you think the opposite, fine. Are you talking about my discomfort with Dean "running against" parts of the Democratic Party? What is the attack you are referring to?
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Your deceptively titled your thread.
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 12:15 PM by Scott Lee
"Sympathy" is a code word for "support" and it cast your post as something positive toward Howard Dean, when in fact you went on to script a long-winded denunciation of him.

Tom, the trick won't work, and quite frankly I'm surprised to see it coming from a bright individual such as yourself. You're above this kind of thing. Try again.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Sympathy is not the same as Support.
That really shouldn't be confusing, unless you are the type person who thinks any positive words said about someone is the same as an endorsement of him.

I appreciate all the effort you made clarifying exactly what you saw as my denuncipation of Dean.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. It was subtle....but in the words of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria..
"You fail to persuade."

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eileen from OH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Um, I'm a Dean supporter, too
And don't know if you've followed Tom's posts or not, but he is most definitely NOT one who uses his posts as some way to surreptitiously take a dig.

I may disagree with him in my choice of candidates and some of his arguments, but I think we would all do better if more people adopted the grown-up manner and civil discourse that he uses.

There are sure-as-shit others here who use the tactic you describe, but Tom ain't one.

eileen from OH
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Bush loves Jiang Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. lol...That's more my style...
Remember when I posted Lieberman's "perfect" ACLU voting record? ;-)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Very helpful.
it's nice to see a contribution that raises the level of debate.

Have a nice day, Bombtrack. :hi:
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Cancer on the Democratic Party?
buh-bye

I see you aren't planning on having a reasoned discussion.
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Thanks for the charming, helpful comment....
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 12:04 PM by edzontar
Glad to see the level of debate elevated to this level.

Nice way to tarnish the Red Sox avatar, too.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. And he even quotes "Snitchens"
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I've done plenty for the democratic party
shame on you
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. *snore*
Dean has already raised 1 million in the last 8 days. Clark has been trying to raise 1 million in the last 30 days. If anything, he'll fall flat short of his $1M goal (and he's already bound by public campaign $$ and $45 mil max, whilst Dean isn't and he's already raised almost $40M and more coming)

Hawkeye-X

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Incorrect on Clark's million dollar drive
Do facts matter around here?
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TeacherCreature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. Well didn't you say you were a Libertarian?
I think you said that about two days ago. Am I right? So that would kind of play into your feelings about the democratic party.
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eileen from OH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
11. Reasoned and reasonable as always, Tom. . .
See, this is the thing I've been saying. . .candidates can say all they want that they are MORE electable than the others and cite why. But saying that one or the other is NOT ELECTABLE AT ALL crosses the line for me into something that damages everyone running, the party as a whole, and our overall chances to win, no matter who the nominee is. And that's been the new line against Dean of late, and in some cases (Lieberman) seemingly the ONLY line.

When someone throws a dirty trick gotcha question like "Can Fill-in-the-blank-Dem-candidate-name beat Bush?" ALL the hands oughtta go up. For all of 'em.

eileen from OH





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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
13. Your sympathy is appreciated
Your expression of sympathy and your analysis is very much appreciated. It is frustrating to be a Dean supporter, seeing the candidate raise record sums of money, get amazing amounts of support and essentially do all the right things that make him the front-runner and then have the party turn their backs on him by saying 'he can't get elected.'

Who's ass do you need to kiss to be elected? What hoop hasn't Dean jumped through for fellow Democrats to say "hey, he has a chance?" This is one of the reasons why I don't mind Dean's attacks of late, if the party isn't going to stay neutral, then Dean needs to defeat the old specters as well.

I just wish it would have been different. When Koppel asked that totally inappropriate question about whether Dean could beat Bush or not, every hand should have shot up and each candidate should have said that just like in years past, we have a collection of people - any one of whom can beat Bush. That fact should never be in doubt.
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XRepublican Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
44. What Dean Has To Do To Beat Bush
I have to confess up front that I am not a Liberal, nor have I ever voted for a Democrat in my life, at least up to this point. What I am is a disenfranchised conservative that has watched the Bush Family, Shrubya in particular, thoroughly corrupt and destroy the Republican Party. To be honest, the only thing I have in common with the majority of you democrats here is that I really want to see George Bush go down to defeat just like his Daddy did in 1992, albeit for different reasons than you do and obviously only the democratic nominee can do this.<p>

The purpose of my visit here is to advance what I think is a very important message to Howard Dean and the other democrats running for presidency on how to Beat Bush in 2004. You may not like my message but I guarantee you that it will be VERY effective in capturing millions of votes from both independents and republicans. I guess it all comes down to how badly you Democrats want to beat George Bush.<p>

Here is the Deal. I know for a fact that there is great dissatisfaction and dismay in the conservative wing of the Republican Party with Bush. To the point, MANY conservatives are unhappy with Bush's positions on two key Grassroots Issues that carry tremendous weight with many voters across the nation (particularly in the South and Midwest). These issues are Illegal Immigration and Unfair Trade Deals. Now I realize most democrats favor our government’s Open Borders policies and don't seem to be particularly upset with trade polices that are causing millions of job losses--with the possible exception of Dick Gephart on the latter. Heck, if I was a democrat, I'd probably favor these policies too because they work in favor of your natural constituencies.<p>

However, what you have to understand is that there is ZERO chance for Dean or any other Democrat beating Bush UNLESS the Democratic Candidate comes out STRONGLY AGAINST Illegal Immigration, Amnesties for Illegals and our Job Destroying Trade deals. Though I am most certainly biased, I can say with absolute certainty that there are millions of votes out there to be tapped IF the Democrat Contender seizes the initiative on this. IMO it is enough to provide the margin of victory over Bush. Just go over to Free Republic and Liberty Post sometime and look at all the angry republicans there that are steaming about Bush's coming Amnesty for Illegal Aliens and his Trade Polices that put Foreign Interests (and his Family Interests) before the interests of hard working American Citizens. The anger out there on this is building and many, such as myself, are going on record as voting for a 3rd party candidate or just leaving the vote for president blank.<p>

Again, you all may disagree with this, but in poll after poll, most Americans want illegal immigration stopped cold and so far there is NO Candidate in this election that is speaking to this issue (crisis). Ditto on Trade. All we conservatives have got so far from Rove and Company is utter contempt and the tired old “you have no where else to go”. Truth is Nothing would make us traditional conservatives happier than to see this highhanded strategy blow up in Rove's face.<p>

I sincerely hope that I won't get banned here for this message. I believe very strongly that I am right on the money on this. I understand the republican party well, know how the rank and file feels about Bush and have what I think are exceptional insights as what will sell to the electorate in this election.<p>

I ask Again: “How Badly Do You Democrats Want To Beat Bush?” You may not like the message but it will most certainly sell to most American Voters and give the Democrat Candidate a shot at beating the Inarticulate One.<p>

If it is at all possible, came someone here forward this message to the Dean Campaign for review or otherwise circulate it around.<p>

P.S. My intention here is not to disrupt. I'll avoid all discussions regarding the various policy positions of your party and only weigh in now and then on how to best position your candidate on how to beat Bush. Let me tell you: It is possible.<p>

Best Wishes.<p>

Sincerely,<p>

XRepublican




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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
20. just taking the last sentence
"We are engaged in a polarizing dynamic, and it would be better if we all stopped feeding into it."

Dean's spokespeople are just showing us all what sort of campaign he intends to run against W. Look at the NYTimes article on bush strategery -

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/1203/26bushstrategy.html

specifically:

-- snip --
Told of Bush's strategy, Dean's campaign manager, Joe Trippi, said he was skeptical that it would work.

"That's the only shot they have, to depolarize the race," Trippi said. "If the race is a referendum on Bush, that's going to be very polarizing."
-- snip --

Their intent is to polarize the race as much as possible - whether against dems or pubs. Make this about hating the other guy more than your own. Some might consider this sort of thing 'taking it to the opponent' - i consider it slime, an example of why people hate politics in this country, and destructive to the democratic process. How is this a 'positive' development for the democratic party?

Then i read the comments from some supporters responding to your post... and i see the same divisive polarizing dynamic.

I sincerely hope that the we democrats dont demonstrate that we are a party driven by hate rather than substance. It would be the worst of mistakes.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Clark and Dean clearly have different strategies in mind...
...to win the Fall campaign, though many of their positions on the issues are similar. There is a heated debate on their relative success strategies, as well there should be. Two differing visions on how to win. I back Clark on that, but I can understand the logic of Dean's approach. Through most of the campaign Dean sought to differentiate himself from other Democratic candidates more by example, by being the guy most willing to take it to Bush. Then he began contrasting himself with other Democrats, saying they had shown, by being too passive in the past, that this couldn't be the year for them to motivate and carry the angry Democratic base into battle against Bush. Now the distinctions are increasingly becoming bitter.

That game plan doesn't totally do it for me, but I understand it. I also fear it will be harder for Dean to govern effectively, if he is elected, if that is how he wins. But I can see the case he is making regarding pitting the Democratic base head on against the Republican base. My concern now though, is that polarization is increasingly infecting the ranks of Democrats in a destrucitve manner. We all play a role in this, I seee no point in arguing about relative degree of blame until we each are doing what we can to prevent this.
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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. its interesting
if you combine that sentiment with what Will Pitt just posted in another thread, you get a pretty good snapshot. If the Dean Campaign is both a reaction to the perceived lack of backbone in our current party leadership, and one of the primary sources of anger, then it makes for a good wakeup call - but not necessarily a good presidential candidate.

To me, it just strikes me like sugar - all empty calories that may get us energy but wont make us healthier. Dont get me wrong - what the Dean campaign is doing may well work - in terms of the 'be careful what you wish for' vein we see from so many pubsfordean defense posts. The pubs do, in my opinion, vastly underestimate the degree of anger out in the electorate - and the Dean campaign will feed it. Of course, if it fails - it really fails.

Arnold ran a campaign of bread and circuses, happy thoughts and balloons, and the people loved him for it. The American people are so unhappy - i just wonder if this sort of approach is a good thing.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. As you already know
I am one of those who believe that the Democratic Party is extrordinarily lucky right now to have Weslely Clark available as a candidate for President. Like Dean, he wasn't sitting in Congress for the last three years while Bush's radical right coup consolidated power. Like Dean, he speaks with passion against the arrogance of the Bush regiem as it singlehandedly and recklessly attempts to bend the world to their neocom will. Like Dean, Clark has direct grassroots appeal and a volunteer movement backing him.

Clark and Dean really are the only two men postioned to potentially win the nomination. The rest, to use that death row phrase, are "walking dead men" in the current political climate.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. Somebody needs to point out that the emperor is naked.
There is a time and a place for blunt honesty.

Now is the time and the United States in the place.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
38. Certainly the type of strategy
should also be weighed which you point out. I think we around here all get pumped up by the anti-bush rhetoric, I am concerned about how well that will work during a time of "war" against an incumbent. We have all seen the polls right?

We do need a positive message, and when we attack, it has to be done with class, so as not to be taken as an insult, against Bush or folks on the fence, in the GE.
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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. in my opinion
for what its worth
attacking puts energy into the pub base that isnt currently there. RedneckSocialist and I had a nice discussion over in P/C a couple weeks back on a sort of political conservation of energy. I still firmly believe that we're in an advantageous position right now.

Many pubs are turned off by Bush, whether it's because of his spending increases, the increases to the size of government, his lack of support for really really scary stuff. The pubs control the government - the revolution came - and they didnt achieve nirvana.

They're a little disaffected.

Now is the time for a reasonable alternative, someone who will have broad positive appeal - and the reason for that is that all the people who are going to vote against Bush because they hate his sorry ass have already got their marching shoes on. Hatred isnt going to stir up any more votes than we already have - we hate Bush so much we'd vote for anyone. But letting that anger overwhelm us cedes the tactical advantage we gain by running an even tempered dem. It will stir up the enemy and bring him to the polls.

Every dollar we spend assaulting Bush is a dollar Bush doesnt have to spend rallying his base. We should be talking about healthcare, and education, and Americorps, and helping people in need. Frame the economy in terms of the 9.8% of the people who WANT to work but cant find it. Clinton won because he was hopeful. We need that sort of positive vision because not only will it appeal to those of us that see hope being bulldozed in DC by the pubs who are already mobilized, but by those not committed to the camps.

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Nice post "Obiwan"
I'm impressed with your grasp of the situation TexasPatriot.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
21. Wow. Great insight.
The moral of this story: If Dean assumes the role of defacto party leader, he needs to begin acting like one.

The time for unity is three weeks ago, and both sides are to blame for the lack of it.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
22. perhaps we should analyze the timeline
when did Dean first start labeling his opponents bush-lite?

when did Dean's opponents first start calling Dean unelectable?

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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. I used to "attack" or question Dean way back in the spring.
Edited on Tue Dec-30-03 12:35 PM by jonnyblitz
He wasn't leftwing enough and I had read an article which basically stated he was in the back pocket of AIPAC and that didn't sit well at all with me. I later realized that I was never going to find a candidate in the DEM party pure enough for my liking so I decided not to fight it. I refuse to get virulently "anti" towards any of the candidates and am really disturbed not at others who prefer somebody different but at the DEGREE of venom towards Dean. I find myself drawn towards him even more just because of all the attacks from other DEMS when otherwise I would be indifferent to him and just vote for him against Bush when the time came.

Good post. :hi:
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. johnny, you and me both.
I am a New Socialist (IWW member too), and I damn well knew early on that my perfect candidate would never come close to taking a major US presidential election. We scrutinize them and see how close they come to our priorities, right? I can tell you that there are comrades of mine who virulently disagree with me on this, and stick to voting for the ghost of Gus Hall everytime an election comes around.

You and I have travelled a similar road, I see.


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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. "wobblies for dean"
who woulda thunk! My "non-capitalist" friends are mortified that I would vote for any DEM. I believe there IS a difference between Bush and ANY of the candidates. The revolution isn't going to happen anytime soon so in the meantime.... :hi:
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
42. Gus Hall?
I knew Gus Hall when I was a kid. His son Arlo and I went to school together. Nice man.

I knew he was the head of the Godless Communist Conspiracy in this country but I couldn't match up the evil spawn of Satan I read about with the somewhat mild and distracted man I met at his home.

Of course, that was the first time my name appeared in an FBI file, though likely not the last ;^)
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
30. It does seem unfair.
I totally sympathize with Dean supporters. When I first saw Dean out there swinging on Bush, I was very impressed. I still am. If this were 2000 and Dean were running against Gore, I probably would have chosen Dean (and I was a strong Gore supporter and contributor).

Asking Dean supporters to just forget Dean seems very callous. They have come so far. Their movement has been so successful. Dean has been an intelligent leader and has harnessed the Internet (a breakthrough).

I think Dean would be a great president. It is sad for me thinking that we have such a great guy in Dean but at the same time thinking that he is not the best candidate for the Dems or the country as a whole in 2004. If you have a Dean bumpersticker on your car, I can imagine it being a much much bigger bummer to reach that conclusion.

Dean folks (the real ones, not the "agents provocateurs" I think I see from time to time) have my respect. I would be on Dean's side in the primary if Clark were not in the race.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Thank you for those words!
I greatly admire General Clark, and believe him to be an individual of superior ability, intelligence and character; I will support him in every manner possible, should he gain the nomination, as will the vast majority of Dean supporters!

May the best candidate win, because we will ALL win, if that happens! :hi:
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Same to you.
May the best candidate win. :toast:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Indeed!
"We must hang together, for most assuredly we shall hang separately."

---Benjamin Franklin.

:toast:
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