Sean Penn: "Don't underestimate the damage her poisonous ambition can do to this country."

[Zueda]

About Hillary Clinton.

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Penn_endorses_Kucinich_challenges_conventional_wisdom_1207.html

[Progress And Change]

1. the same can be said about Obama

[journalist3072]

3. Exactly! Obama isn't ambitious? He's running for President. As is John Edwards and the rest of

the lot. I'd call that ambitious. I guess some men in this country (i.e. Sean Penn) still feel threatened by a highly intelligent woman who doesn't cow down while in the presence of men.

[emilyg]

18. Amen.

[MonkeyFunk]

26. No

only Hillary is ambitious. The rest are running out of a genuine concern for the American people and to ensure the security of fluffy little bunnies, and no thoughts of power and influence have ever sullied their pure little hearts.

[Nedsdag]

34. Enough with the sexist crap!

I'm sick of it.

Sean Penn is entitled to his opinion. If you don't like it, tough shit!

[oasis]

149. Sean, the wife batterer, hates strong women. (eom)

[Captain Hilts]

129. I can't remember other Prez candidates being criticized for being "ambitious." nt

[DaLittle Kitty]

151. John Edwards General Election Speech

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6_RBXw6NSw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB4CVHTzzvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpxMHcqqxgg

[Maven]

40. Exactly. Obama acts like he's a fucking political messiah.

And his faithful followers worship accordingly.

[Nedsdag]

97. What flavor is the Hillary Kool-Aid you're drinking?

Grape, cherry, or cyanide?

[L0oniX]

125. Uhm that would be marijuana tea.Rememeber ...they don't inhale.

:sarcasm:

[journalist3072]

108. Thank you! I've been saying that all along. He acts like he's the great hope of the Black community

For example, when he was on Tom Joyner's show, he said "this is a once in a lifetime opportunity." Meaning, he believes that for the rest of our time here on earth, he'll be the only viable Black candidate for President.

That is somehow those of us in Black America don't support him...we'll never get the chance to elect a Black President again.

Rather arrogant of him.

[NMMNG]

134. Don't you know? He's the second coming of MLK.

Not to mention, Oprah loooooves him. Now get out there and vote!

[Capn Sunshine]

65. .....

[TeamJordan23]

85. But it wasn't. It was said about Clinton. nm

[LWolf]

99. That's true.

It's one reason why neither Clinton nor Obama will get my vote.

[bvar22]

101. I agree!

A pox on both their Corporate owned houses!




"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[Laurab]

123. But it wasn't, and probably for good reason. n/t

[ThatPoetGuy]

2. Interesting...

Didn't Sean Penn go to jail for beating his wife?

Now he sees Hillary's ambition as poisonous. Why is ambition a good thing for men but not women?

Boy has a hate-on against women.

[sniffa]

5. And another Obama supporter who can't defend Obama

[earthlover]

14. I thought he endorsed Kucinich....I see the same knee jerk reaction to bash :Obama

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

8. I missed Sean Penn and jail. When did that happen?

MKJ

[ingac70]

19. When he was married to Madonna...

32 days in jail in '87 for domestic assault.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

27. Madonna still loves Sean, doesn't hold a grudge

In her documentary "Truth or Dare", when asked who was the love of her life, she answered Sean. Madonna's been very open about having an interest in kinky sex. I think she liked Sean's physical aggressiveness, even if he ended up going overboard once. I think it was just something between husband and wife, given the circumstances.

[mzmolly]

47. Don't think so, she divorced him over it.

On December 28, 1988, Madonna filed assault charges against Penn; media reports emerged that the actor had put his wife through physical abuse, including allegations that he'd tied her to a chair for several hours on New Year's Eve and that he had raped her. Neither party has ever addressed what happened that night and Madonna eventually withdraw the assault charges ... In January of 1989, Madonna again filed for divorce, and their marriage was officially ended on September 14 of that year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna's_controversies

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

50. But then subsequently said he was the love of her life in "Truth or Dare" n/t

[mzmolly]

51. Yep, saw that.

Though it doesn't make what he is said to have done, less vile.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

52. She's obviously forgiven him, and he didn't go on to perpetrate further n/t

[cuke]

78. So now sexual violence and domestic abuse is OK on DU?

It's hard to keep up

[Apollo11]

158. "just something between husband and wife" !! ??

This is the kind of thinking that leads to dangerous ideas like "it's impossible for a man to rape his own wife".

The fact is none of us knows the full details of what went on except Madonna.

In Truth or Dare she did say that Sean had been the love of her life. Presumably she must have loved him when they decided to get married. But that doesn't necessarily mean she thinks it was OK for him to use violence against her.

Also please note that Truth or Dare was filmed before Madonna met her current husband, Guy Ritchie.

[0007]

38. Assaulting a paparazzi was not a domestic assault.

But Sean was married to Madonna at the time.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

44. He did tie Madonna to a chair once

And apparently hit her or whatever. That's the story people refer to him about being a wife abuser. It was towards the end of their relationship, she was sleeping with other men and he was jealous. I don't know what Madonna said about that originally, but she never refers to it anymore, and says she still loves him. As I said in my other post, I think Madonna and Sean enjoyed a kinky relationship, that's why the incident wasn't a big deal to her. Plus I think Madonna is sympathetic to the pressure Sean was under, living in a fishbowl with her fame skyrocketing.

[0007]

60. Egads!!

Wow!! Got a link to that story?

[Apollo11]

159. Madonna does not say she still loves Sean Penn

see my previous post above

[ingac70]

54. The paparazzi thing was separate...

He got done for smacking Madonna around as well.

[0007]

55. Show me a link!

[ingac70]

56. Here is his record....

Assault Nashville, TN Jul-1985
Battery Nashville, TN Jul-1985
Battery Apr-1986
Violating Parole 1987
Domestic Violence
Attempted Murder Macau 1986
Pardoned by Portugal for Macau incident

http://www.nndb.com/people/331/000025256/


The battery and assault in Nashville was the paparazzi incident, as well as the battery in '86.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

58. All during his marriage to Madonna, it was the pressure of the fishbowl n/t

[ingac70]

59. The police have been called to his home...

While he has been married to Robin Wright Penn. He isn't a guy I'd want to be involved with.

[cuke]

79. Sexual violence and domestic abuse is now OK on DU

so long as you're "under pressure". It's hard to be in "the fishbowl".

[ingac70]

107. unbelievable...

That someone would make excuses for such behavior!

:wtf:

[druidity33]

127. and

he's still married to her. They have 2 children together. As for you being "involved" with him, i think Robin would object.

:shrug:

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

57. See post #47 n/t

[Hieronymus]

11. How could any two things be so unrelated.

[Nedsdag]

96. Now we're getting personal.

So Sean Penn went to jail, what he says is irrelevant.

You Hillary sycophants are pathetic.

If Sean Penn endorsed Hillary, would this information come up?

[AlCzervik]

4. someone else posted this already and just like you they included nothing but a link.

would it kill you people to cut and paste some text from the actual article?

[Adelante]

112. Hear, hear!!

The DU archives is becoming a link locker, too. It's a shame.

[AX10]

6. Anyone running for office has ambition Sean.

He is quite simple.
He also wanted to see pro-gay rights Mayor Gavin Newsom defeated.
:thumbsdown:

[Double T]

7. Well said.

[bonito]

9. I'm taking the fifth n/t

[Forkboy]

20. With this election I'm drinking a fifth.

:)

[FrenchieCat]

28. Good Decision!

Need to pass out till it's my turn to vote, at this rate! :puke:

[Hieronymus]

10. Good for Sean .. very acute sense.

[Tellurian]

93. Penn is a reactive extremist..

He has never come to terms dealing with his explosive temper.

Of course it works in his favor, when a script calls for a 'wild eyed' character. He is a natural!

[Hieronymus]

141. I'm used to hearing that kind of criticism from the GOP.

[madrchsod]

12. penn is right--dennis is a progressive

and that is why i`m voting for dennis.

[mzmolly]

13. "poisonous ambition?"

WTF is poisonous ambition?

I adore Mr. Penn, but I wonder why ambitious women are considered POISONOUS?! That pisses me off almost enough to change my support for Edwards to the H column. GRRR!

[Zueda]

15. I don't think Sean is saying that...

ambitious women are considered POISONOUS. I think he is saying her malicious intent lends to her ambition.

[mzmolly]

22. Sorry, I wish I bought that explanation, but I don't.

eom

[TabulaRasa]

16. Poisonous ambition is

the elevation of your own political power above any moral principle. Of course, people who run for political office have ambition. With the Clintons, it seems like that's all that's there (and I would use poisonous ambition to describe both of them). I'm sure that's what Penn was referring to.

[mzmolly]

24. Sounds like a right wing talking point to me.

"After all, Hillary can't actually be running to do positive things for the country as she's a lesbian who's only married to Bill for political power." :sarcasm:

It's a load of crap.

[glowing]

90. Wow... who said anything about lesbian or her marriage.. We are

talking about power and it happens to be all corrupting at times.

[mzmolly]

144. Who's "we?" WE are talking about ambition in women being characterized

as negative.

[Hieronymus]

21. Your assumption that it's because she's a woman has no basis and is

therefore sexist.

[mzmolly]

23. Yes that is my assumption.

And, I've made it clear.

[Alexander]

116. Then you are making a sexist assumption.

And you're just as guilty of sexism as the people you are accusing.

[mzmolly]

122. Absurd. So, if I call Bush out on his being a @#$ liar, does that make me one?

C'mon! The desperation in this thread is wearing quite thin.

I've said I am a fan of Mr. Penn both personally and professionally, but his comments are what they are, sexist.

[ThatPoetGuy]

29. Dude, did you read Penn's statement?

"as a strategic politician, Mrs. Clinton pulled out her set of Ginzu knives and dominated once again on 'centrist' political strategy."

What are the facts behind that line, Mr. Penn? And what is his message?

He's referring to the fact that she came off as being in control of the debate, and sounded like a centrist. Whoop de do.

But he's conjuring a bogeyman image: the castrating woman with the knife. Because, ya know, women shouldn't be allowed to "dominate" anything. They should just sit back and be quiet while guys like Sean Penn beat them up. What poisonous ambition she has! She dominated the debate!

[Hieronymus]

32. "That castrating woman", were your words, not Penn's.

[ThatPoetGuy]

46. Um yeah...

That's why there were no quotation marks around those words.

Congrats on winning the dumbest remark of the week award.

[Sparkly]

33. It's interesting how often "ambitious" is used as a pejorative...

... for women.

I don't remember hearing men slammed for their ambition.

[mzmolly]

36. Indeed. It's all the more interesting that "liberals" partake?

It honestly makes me excited about the prospect of a Hillary Presidency. Frankly, I haven't been enthused until NOW, but when I see how far women still have to travel for equality, I can definitely get behind Ms. Clinton!

Thanks for the response. :hi:

[Sparkly]

37. I hear that.

This whole season has been a real eye-opener.

[cuke]

80. We even have posters defending Penn's domestic violence

because Penn was under pressure

[Guaranteed]

41. Ever read "Julius Caesar?" nt

[mzmolly]

43. Was Caesar the last man to be referred to in this manner?

:P

Hey BGL. :hi:

[glowing]

89. It simply is a metaphoric statement that means that her wants and desires

are so strong, she'd be willing to do anything to get what she wants.. Don't turn this into a woman/ man thing. I am a woman and I didn't seperate the two to make it women are poisonous because they have ambition.. I was able to read and analyze the statement.. something many people haven't been taught to do.

[mzmolly]

109. I stand by my original statement. I've seen "women" here defending domestic violence.

I suggest that her "wants and desires" are the same "wants and desires" as Mr. Kucnich and others running for President - to improve conditions in this country.

Simply because other women here dislike Clinton and agree with you, that does not negate my point. Many women/men also agree with ME on the sexist remarks by Mr. Penn.

[glowing]

137. And I disagree. We are allowed to have disagreements... and it is

ok to have reasonable discussions and sound debate..

I think that everyone has some ambition, maybe some more than others... But where does that ambition lead you to, what are you willing to do to get to the top? It is still not un-heard of of women execs "sleeping" their way to the top. Is that the desire I wish to pass onto my daughter or even accept for myself. Because I have a standard and won't degrade myself like that, I would keep a job as a janitor or secretary and keep my dignity.. some women, and men for that matter, will do whatever it takes to get to the top. I do not even think Senator Clinton's wants and desires come even a smidgen close to Dennis Kucinich. He seems to want to work for us in the capacity of the true American spirit, but he is unwilling to compromise himself for that ambition. Senator Clinton has, in my opinion, voted, said, and snuggled up to some very questionable people's and positions.

So, I pleasantly disagree with your assessment that Sean Penn is trying to use his metaphors to do anything other than explain how the ambition, in this case, is the problem. Like I've said, if she had a policy much like Dennis and John, and if she wasn't taking big corporate dollars and this didn't feel like such an episode of Dynasty, she would have my full support. Its truly sad that I have to say, there's a woman running for President, yet I cannot with good conscience place a vote for her. It would, in the end, be a vote against myself and America.

[mzmolly]

139. Kucinich couldn't wait to shake Bush's hand after a speech last year.

He waited like a puppy dog to do so. I think Dennis has an ego the size of Cleveland and that's ok because he's a man. Hillary Clinton's voting record is progressive. Dennis's record is impressive if you don't care about "choice" and I happen to.

Thanks for the respectful disagreement. I found this from NOW after the topic came up. I'll point you to this reply for more info on why I feel as I do.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3806942&mesg_id=3810809

Peace and happy holidays.

[glowing]

148. Perhaps he had something he wanted to pass on while handshaking.

I'm not sure what you mean about choice. He respects peoples privacy and that is that. And has stated that he wants the choice safe.. on the other hand he also supports services that help support healthcare needs before the "choice" is necessitated and if the mother chooses to have a child, he supports the mother's to receive help with day care sevices, food nutrition, etc.... then the Choice would be an actual choice rather than a forced financial reason.

I have written many times about how the women's movement, while admirable, didn't proceed correctly in the first place. Instead of making men the enemy, they should have embraced the their counterparts. If men and women worked together, they could have insisted on good pay and less time at the work place (40 hrs typical production.. add 2 people to that work force at 32 hrs and you have an additional 24hrs of productivity--if they worked together perhaps the work week may have become shortened to 32 hours).. Men could have worked 8 hrs less to be with the family more and women wouldn't have to feel so damned tired... Instead we have this fight between each other.. women make less money... wage stagnation has transpired... the typical work week has increased to 56 hrs a week, typically with 2nd jobs or in overtime that is required.

The other thing that I hate is that women had to become "ball busters", they had to become shrewd and play with the "big boys". Personally, I don't want to become an asshole to get a 6 figure salary. There are atributes that women have that makes them effective in their own way. I know that crashing thru the glass ceiling required some tough moves... But I think its time to band together as workers and unite our needs for paying salaries, more time with our families, healthcare, and govt daycare centers that can be trusted to watch children so that husbands and wives don't become passing ships in the night trying to keep the costs of child care down and insure his safety. You know.. women went to work and the govt makes tax money off our labor, social security benefits (and you typically don't ever get back what you put in.. often if your husband dies, you choose his benefits because men still make more), corporations get to stagnate wage and pay less for women (because they do and the supreme court protects them), insurance co make more money off two cars, cars are doubled on the road.. there are so many different things that benefit from more people working... yet the sacrifice is time, stress, and the guilt of having your children raised by others and their values being instilled rather than your own... I grew up with a mother who was stressed, overworked, tired... weekends were housework... evenings were fast meals, homework, and bed.... So, to compensate for feeling like I didn't get the time with my mother I wished, I walk in the door, no matter how tired or stressed, and do whatever the child wants. I'm always cleaning early in the AM or late in the night when he's asleep... I make dinners and "freezer casseroles" for the on the go so there is always a hot meal with nutritional value..

It wasn't until I became a young wife and a mother that I realized the fraud I'd been handed... And subsequently it is both my husband and myself that are having to deal with the shitty reality of a movement that didn't include men.

[mzmolly]

152. I honestly can't relate to your position. I'm a bit stunned by your assertions.

The womans movement was about having choices and getting equal pay for equal work. I'm a "feminist" who is basically a stay at home Mom. I left my career when my daughter was born, and in spite of financially difficult times, I have NO regrets.

I am glad however that I was afforded a "choice" in the matter and that was largely due to the womans movement.

[glowing]

154. Its not a choice for me... I have to work... My husband and I work

opposite schedules often to keep him from daycare. (Floriduh is a scary place for children in daycare). I wish I had the option. I wish I could say that it would be feasible for either myself or my husband to stay home and one of us work... Right now that isn't possible... Just one wouldn't cover the mortgage and the bills. Also, my job doesn't provide insurance. The main reason my husband has remained where he has is because the insurance is good and the cost isn't insane.. If he moves to another company, that is a factor to consider. I'm hoping to move on this year to another company or different position (which means that I will be posting less probably).

I find that the women's movement was devisive... drawing lines in the sand between humans. The signs on the banners should have read equal pay, equal jobs, less work time for all... Men would be holding the lighter to the bras they all burned. This is going to become and issue as more of us become of the marrying age... A lot of women my age (28-35) are tired, didn't like the way they lost their "moms" to the work thing, don't like the lack of time, still try to create a balanced and complete life for their children and husbands (because they hate how they grew up) all while working 40+ hrs. (I'm a manager--work 56hrs required on salary. I have 2 days off a week. One of my days I work 16hrs straight and the other double up day I work in the AM, go home for 8 hrs and then do a 3rd shift to give that person a night off and save money for O.T. hourly pay). Mostly I work in the AM and my husband works PM... There are a few days we have similar shifts. I have 8 days of paid vacation a year.. that's it. And the money is standard in my field and the hours are expected. In my off time, I garden, cook, clean, iron, sew (speaking of which I need to go get some material for my curtains), I spend time with my son reading and playing and painting (he loves to help me cook and garden and clean--he dusts while I swifer). I will put chores off if it means doing something special with him or helping him out with something or taking him to the library. On the other hand, I let him participate in "adult" things like cooking (obviously well monitored), and that's something that I was expected to do when I was growing up (I grew up in the country--chores were going to the barn as well). Believe me, I know my value as a person is well above my paycheck. If I was paid the equivalent of the many things I am capable of doing and the many things I contribute back to my community and neighborhood, I would be as wealthy as Oprah. And most young people are going to feel the same way as more of them become older... "I went to school, I got good grades, I'm a good person, I've gone to college, I have my degree and I'm barely living, I'm forced to live with a roommate or boyfriend/ girlfriend or with my parents, I'm in debt up to my ears...... Is this really my "American Dream" that everyone told me was important to work towards?" And for people my age its just assumed that both women and men work. There's not some looming put a woman in her place mentality.. It is assumed--we grow up and are taught side by side from an early age that when we become old enough (usally 15 or 16) that we will begin to work (shitty part-time jobs), and that when we graduate highschool we have two options: work or college. With myself, I had to work while attending college. My husbands mother has always been a stay at home mom and he said, please, I don't want you to be someone who doesn't work and drives our children crazy mothering them to death and calling me 100 times a day to ask me something... please always work, even if its part-time.. get out of the house.. Now, if I was independently wealthy, I would choose to take on many more volunteer positions than I already do.. so I can contribute back to the community.

Point is at some point there will be enough of us and the baby boomers will be going senile that we will work united as workers, rather than trying to work against for the position, status, and title.

[mzmolly]

155. The divisiveness came long before the movement to correct it.

I'm too astounded by your perspective to continue this discussion. Peace

[glowing]

156. Like I said, the movement happened... it is what it is.. I can now supposedly

do anything I want.. Its good... People my age work... Its not an option... If you catch up with just a few of us, you will hear its great to have technology and this and that... but damn, does it have to be so hard... I hope that my marriage survives the diconnect we are forced into.

I do have hope. I have a voice. I have a vote (if we ever have paper ballots). I have inspiration and desires and a child to pass a progressive aspect onto. One person at a time, one moment, one breath, one heart beat... Take it day by day and make the most out of any situation. Be the change, I want to see. Recognize what I don't like, do what I think is right... I can complain all day long about how unfair things are. I can point out throughout the history of the United States where the People were lied to and bamboozled and the cause and effect that it had. I don't hold it against anyone for their roles or what they do... I feel sorry for George W Bush... the life he was born into and the way he was taught and the unhappiness and mental issues that seriously need to be addressed.... Clearly, I don't want him anywhere near the White House... but its a life I'd never want to live.

Peace as well...

[druidity33]

128. i think

he writes his own speeches and tries to be lyrical when he can... a go with the flow (verbally) kinda guy. But he ain't no poet. Picking a word because it sounds good is not always the best way to go. Especially if you think folk will be parsing them.

Will Clinton's policies be poisonous to our democracy? I don't think so. But maybe he does. Why should it matter if she's a woman?

I think right now, people here are super-sensitive to language and semantics. It's a dangerous place to be, more-so because we are all so passionate about our candidate choices.

I really think the mans heart is in the right place. He has had problems and admitted to them. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt...


:dilemma:

[mzmolly]

131. I wish he had chosen "poisonous policies" instead in such an instance.

Will Clinton's policies be poisonous to our democracy? I don't think so. But maybe he does. Why should it matter if she's a woman?

I simply don't like when women are critiqued for being ambitious and are described as having motives different than those of equally ambitious men.

[rAVES]

130. Ambition above your station.. Hillary is not fit for POTUS

I think America has had enough of incompetent bought out fools as their President.

[MaraJade]

135. Riiiiiight!

A WOMAN should KNOW HER PLACE. And it is not the "Senate or the House."

Either she must be PREGNANT, BAKING COOKIES, or WRAPPED IN SARAN WITH A BOW ON
and PREPARING FOR EAGER SEX WITH HER MAN!

HOW DARE SHE RUN FOR POTUS!

:think:

Everyone knows that WOMEN are incompetent fools by nature. . .

[rAVES]

136. Thats all you've got? a lady hater? Bush is a male, and an incompetent bought out fool.

This misogynist shtick is old and lame, a women could make just a good or better president than a man, but not Clinton.
One look at her health care plan should show you who she considers important.

[Fire Walk With Me]

146. Aren't Bill and Hillary consultants for a company which outsources US jobs?

Or was that just another internet rumor..?

[Evergreen Emerald]

17. sean Penn has never been known for his brains...

here he has been hornswaggled by the right-wing talking points. And this, I will remind you, is the same mantra that Obama tried when he got in trouble with the "she has planned to be president longer than me..."

What ever Penn, stick to the writers.

[mzmolly]

25. Absofreakinlutely!

:toast:

"he has been hornswaggled by the right-wing talking points"

I'm glad I'm not the only one who smelled essence of Limbaugh.

[Whisp]

53. Penn has been outspoken about the War and the *

is he also full of shit on that? or do some just pick the kernels out of the pile they like and eat them up?

[Hieronymus]

68. Good one.

[Evergreen Emerald]

73. What he stated was akin to more than a kernel

It was a big stinking pile--and he deserves to be called on it.

[mzmolly]

110. In your world, must I agree with his sexist remarks in order to appreciate his remarks on the war?

:eyes:

[Whisp]

113. explain how 'poisonous' is sexist?

I'm supposing that is what you mean.
I am willing to hear a reasonable explanation - I know that many words can have sexist undertones - I just don't get that feel here but I certainly could be wrong.

but maybe I should read the whole thread first and find the explanation may have already been given.
later.

[mzmolly]

114. I've explained it in this thread, and others agree.

Please do go back and have a gander. You may have to also familiarize yourself with right wing talking points on the Clinton marriage?

[Whisp]

117. on more reading, confirming that I do not find that comment sexist.

I find voting against the interests of the people and cuddling up with corporatists very poisonous. What is being sought after is obviously personal wealth and influence in a very small circle of power that snaps its whips at the dirty underclass.

I find Hillary and most of those lieing spineless traitorous fakes very poisonous indeed.

[mzmolly]

118. I disagree. His comments smack of sexism, and I've never jumped on the 'sexists against Hillary'

bandwagon before. However if the shoe fits ...

[Whisp]

120. are you implying that I am a sexist

by offering me that shoe... for disagreeing with you?...

this is one big reason why I think the Clinton campaign is in trouble, imo (well, not Real trouble, just the actual trouble pesky little questioners can put her in - Diebold has not left town). Many are acting like jerkhead Freepers with their oh so subtle inuendoes.
;(
please continue tho, you do good work for the opposing camps.

[mzmolly]

121. I am an Edwards supporter. Obama is my second choice and Ms. Clinton

is right there with the rest of the pile of "eh" candidates for me.

As to your snarky remarks about my continued work for opposing camps, I'll file that under > :eyes:

I don't think you're sexist for not recognizing that Penn's remarks were, I think we simply have a long way to go as women in this country.

[Hieronymus]

142. Damn, you must have really been pissed when Belafonte gave his

endorsement to Edwards. Penn gave money to Edwards, as well.

[mzmolly]

143. Not unless he used sexist or racist language in doing so.

I've said several times that I think Sean Penn is a complex person, a great actor and a humanitarian. And, it now appears to me that he's a sexist as well. In fact, I had no idea he was not only accused of spousal abuse, but rape.

Again, I stand by my characterization of Mr. Penn's remarks.

Trivializing Women Politicians

Female politicians have long struggled with a double standard: while being criticized or perceived as "soft" or "weak" if they come across as too traditionally feminine, they are also accused of being too "hard" or "strident" if they come off as assertive and powerful — traditionally masculine attributes. While these impossible standards are being subverted by successful women politicians such as new House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, many journalists don't seem to know what to do with strong women. These professionals, who should know better, often revert to old-fashioned sexism in describing women leaders (e.g. denigrating women for qualities, like aggressiveness or ambition, that are seen as positive attributes in men), scrutinizing their appearance, and concentrating on their roles as dutiful wives and mothers to the exclusion of their political accomplishments and records on the issues.

http://www.now.org/issues/media/070315hillary_media.html

[trixie]

30. You don't agree

so he shouldn't have a voice? Because he chooses a different Democrat he is stupid? Maybe we should be able to pick and choose who does and does not have the right to a voice.

Saying you disagree because of points a, b or c is one thing. I think that both Clinton and Obama have gone a little dirty and this is the election we need to come together and defeat the GOP and I am disappointed in both of them. A lot of Dems are upset by the angle of the election at this point. Penn isn't the only one.

[Evergreen Emerald]

31. Look, he is regurgitating the lies and distortions and rovian re-definitions

No one is suggesting he should not be able to say what he thinks. I just think it is a shame that he cannot think for himself, but rather nod in lemming-like fashion as Rove whispers in his ear.

The writers might help him come up with fresh material.

[Mojorabbit]

42. I didn't get that at all from the article

I think he was making a point of her centrist positions and comparing it to Dennis.
She does chop everything up to keep to the center. She is better than any republican
but she is not what I would call progressive.

[Hieronymus]

62. You're right .. Hillary supporters turn me off her more and more.

[Evergreen Emerald]

72. lovely

glad to see you are part of the discussion. Is that you dick?

[Nedsdag]

100. Me too!

I'm sick of the Hillariousites and their self-righteousness!

"Saint Hillary is 100% pure." "She's Mother Teresa, Florence Nightingale, Joan of Arc, and Virgin Mary all rolled in to one."

Well guess what, sycophants, she's not. Neither is Obama, Edwards, Biden, Richardson, Dodd, Gravel, or Kucinich.

This is politics. DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!

[Evergreen Emerald]

71. "poisonous ambitions?"

That is a right-wing talking point.

[Mojorabbit]

75. Yes

It is his description of how he sees it. I would not call it poisonous myself but he can if that is how he feels. He seems to be looking for a straight talker as he has picked Dennis who has clear as a bell positions on the issues. She bends into a pretzel to avoid a straight answer and does not take a firm stand on many issues as she wants to win by appealing to everyone.
That is fine if it is how she wants to run her campaign. It may well work and I don't begrudge her that but it is not my cup of tea. I want to know exactly where the candidates stand. And anyone who is running for this office has mega ambition as well they should.

[cuke]

82. repetitive straw man

" he can if that is how he feels"

Why do you keep implying that someone is not letting Penn speak? Are you so deluded you think someone is saying Penn shouldn't be allowed to say that? The rest of your post is equally demented and devoid of facts as Penn's rant

[Mojorabbit]

86. LOL

Okey Dokey then. Have fun! :)
Perhaps I don't take it personal when I don't agree with what someone says about a candidate. I haven't made a choice yet so I am looking at the whole thing through that lens. But then again, I am demented according to your post.

[cuke]

87. Not surprised to see you avoid the issue

You pretend that someone is saying Penn can't say that, and when called on it, you scurry away

[Mojorabbit]

88. Oh stop

I did not pretend anything. I made the statement that he can think and say whatever he wants and I stand by it. We still have some semblence of free speech in this country. You might want to get some perspective my friend.



edited because I really do know how to spell "some".

[cuke]

91. You say that as if you've taken a bold stand

"I made the statement that he can think and say whatever he wants and I stand by it"

Very courageous of you to say that he has 1st Amendment rights. Too bad no one has made an issue of this, but I'm sure you feel nice embracing that straw man

[Mojorabbit]

95. This is cracking me up.

I keep a healty distance and a sense of humor when it comes to any of these articles. It keeps my blood pressure down. I recommend it.

[cuke]

98. I enjoy it too

but I assume people come here because they enjoy it and I have no need to mischaracterize the feelings of others

[mzmolly]

111. What does the term "poisonous ambition" have to do with centrism?

?

[Hieronymus]

35. I have the same opinions .. it is possible for many to see the same traits...

If Hillary supporters are any indication, I feel convinced of my views.

[mzmolly]

39. Currently I support Edwards, however

I find Penn's remarks offensive and sexist. I say this as a huge fan of Mr. Penn, both personally and professionally.

[Hieronymus]

45. Sean spoke at the memorial service of a woman friend of his and mine...

he was eloquent.

[mzmolly]

49. People are complex.

Thanks for sharing your story.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lord Helmet]

48. Penn pegs Hillary pretty good.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

61. Bill was overly centrist, not evil, I can't imagine Hillary would be worse n/t

[ellisonz]

64. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Peace Patriot]

66. Bill, a centrist? Hm. I think you've forgotten what a REAL political spectrum

looks like.

______________________________________________________(the current limits of political debate)


anarchist_____communist_____far left_____left_____(center_____right_____far right_____fascist_____nazi)

------------------------
center (what most Americans want)

--70% against the Iraq War
--84% against any U.S. involvement in widened Mideast war (poll last summer)
--good wages, good benefits, full employment, fairness for all
--strong environmental protection
--63% opposed to torture "under any circumstances" (May '04)
--get rid of Bush--25% approval rating (anti all Bush policy, in big numbers over long period)
--pro-Social Security and other aspects of the "New Deal" such as
activist government on jobs, regulation of big money/corps, safety net for the poor
--universal, single-payer health care
--hungry for REAL political debate (corporate news monopolies prevent it)
--wants government to be the advocate for "the little guy" vs. Big Money/Big Corps


right (where Dem leaders like Bill and Hillary are)

--pro-Iraq War
--aggressive policy on Iran, war as an option
--NAFTA and other policies that have destroyed U.S. jobs, manufacturing and the economy
--grave compromises on environmental policy
--has said little or nothing about torture
--has cozied up to Bush
--cut supports out from under the poor; created a bubble of new millionaires, but underbelly of poverty
--health care that makes pharm corps and other vampires wealthy
--help corporations consolidate control over the media
--favors Big Money/Big Corps over "the little guy" almost always


Do you see how the debate is skewed way to the right? The debate STARTS at the center and swiftly moves right. Left is not permitted (Kucinich gets no coverage). Edwards pushes a bit toward the left, but pushing a bit is not enough. It is easily marginalized by discussions of haircuts. And that's just candidates. Where, on this spectrum, are MOST political pundits positioned? Few centrists. Mostly right. Some far right. Some fascist/nazi. What about news framing, what is covered, how it is covered? Same thing. Most of the political debate in this country is far to the right of the American people.

Left would come down VERY hard on global corporate predators, war profiteers, thieves, murderers, torturers and other malefactors. Left would pull corporate charters, dismantle monopolies and seize assets for the common good. Left would cut the military budget by 90%, down to a true defensive posture (no more wars of choice!). Left would vigorously defend the Constitution and the "balance of power." Left would strongly favor unions and "the little guy." Left would aggressively fight poverty. We NEED left. We have no left! (--permitted in the political debate). Where is there any real leftist debate on TV, on radio, in print? And the TRUE CENTER IS HARDLY REPRESENTED EITHER. Guestimate: 90% of what people see/hear/read is RIGHT OF CENTER. Right of the true middle. And this makes people APPEAR TO BE liberal who really are not. Also, the rightwing views that are presented often swerve further toward fascism and nazism. They are not just right (pro-business, "conservative"); they are far right, sometimes with nazi boots on.

Our political system is totally screwed up--way, way, way farther to the right than it should, and totally favoring global corporate predator power, big military budgets and militarism. Hell, they've privatized and corporatized the very voting machines--with 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code! Who of the Dem candidates is objecting to that? Kucinich, and Edwards (a bit). They should be screaming about it. They are not. Real Democrats wouldn't put up with that for a minute!

It's crazy. It really is. In my opinion, Bill Clinton is NOT a centrist. He is a rightwinger (what used to be called a "conservative"--pro-big business, pro-big military). And Hillary Clinton may be even more of a rightwinger than Bill is. We need an aggressive leftist in charge to counter all this rightwingism. To champion "the little guy." To be pro-union and an advocate of the vast poor/lower middle class majority. The Clintons do not represent the majority, although they have some glitter--they give off vibes--of doing so. Bill in particular is a glitter man. No one else could have shoved NAFTA down our throats.

[Whisp]

115. great post, Peace Patriot. nt

[Perry Logan]

67. This from the guy who married Madonna.

[NoPasaran]

69. And made

Shanghai Surprise with her. Talk about poisonous ambition!

[cuke]

83. And beat up Madonna

Since when has sexual violence been OK on DU? I must have missed that memo

[NoPasaran]

105. If Sean's not careful

He could end up in DK's Ministry of Peace gulag.

[cuke]

70. Oh Great! Now Sean Penn is repeating rightwing propoganda

What is it about Hillary that turns liberals into freepers?

[Mojorabbit]

76. Your statement

is where the problem lies. If she does that to us, how will she fair in the general? I don't think I could stand another 4 years of republicans running this country.

[cuke]

92. Speak for yourself

She doesn't do it to me, but then again, I'm a member of the reality based community

[Mojorabbit]

94. Yes but no one was talking about you in particular

The statement was about DU as a group which is split and that is a fact which anyone can see they peruse the posts here.

[cuke]

103. Yes, but you did refer to yourself

You spoke of "us", which includes you. I mentioned myself only to contrast my position with your fearful one

[Mojorabbit]

104. Snort

:hi:

[mzmolly]

124. Sexism my friend

sexism.

http://www.now.org/issues/media/070315hillary_media.html

Trivializing Women Politicians

Female politicians have long struggled with a double standard: while being criticized or perceived as "soft" or "weak" if they come across as too traditionally feminine, they are also accused of being too "hard" or "strident" if they come off as assertive and powerful — traditionally masculine attributes. While these impossible standards are being subverted by successful women politicians such as new House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, many journalists don't seem to know what to do with strong women. These professionals, who should know better, often revert to old-fashioned sexism in describing women leaders (e.g. denigrating women for qualities, like aggressiveness or ambition, that are seen as positive attributes in men), scrutinizing their appearance, and concentrating on their roles as dutiful wives and mothers to the exclusion of their political accomplishments and records on the issues.

Indeed, in Pelosi's first days as Speaker of the House, The Washington Post's Style section ran an article on Nov. 10 dissecting her choice of clothing for her swearing in ceremony, in which writer Robin Givhan used the word "chic" to describe her appearance and claimed that "an Armani suit, for a woman, is a tool for playing with the boys without pretending to be one." As Annette Fuentes responded in a Feb. 13 USA Today opinion piece, "I would wager that Pelosi is one woman who doesn't play around with anyone."

[K Gardner]

74. Attacking Penn doesn't make what he says any less true..

We have got to stop running corporate-driven elections and reform the way we elect a president. Hopefully in 8 years, we will have learned our lesson and the MSM/corporations won't be influencing our elections.

[cuke]

84. Umm, Penn expressed an opinion, not facts

There is no question of true or not because there are no facts cited by Penn. All he did was express an opinion, so the question is not true or not; the question is agree or not, and why?

I disagree because I always disagree with rightwing propoganda that portrays ambition as a bad thing when it's a woman who is ambitions. There is nothing wrong with ambition.

It seems that Penn's real problem is that he feels Clinton is dishonest and he fears what she will do if elected. Penn's problem has nothing to do with her ambition. When the wife-beater puts it in such terms, he reveals his misogyny.

[antiimperialist]

77. I'll vote for an "ambitious" president who wants to give us true Unviersal health

Give me that kind of ambition any time.

[Nedsdag]

102. "president who wants to give us true Universal health."

Dennis Kucinich?

[flvegan]

81. This thread is hilarious.

Just reading the responses made my morning.

[Forkboy]

106. If Jesus endorsed someone else's candidate...

we'd hear that he only walks on water because he can't swim. Hardcore partisan supporters are consistently defective in the objectivity department, but it makes for great comedy, as you noticed in this thread. :)

[Cha]

119. Now, it's all about

Attack The Messenger, Sean Penn, cause they know it's true about hillary.

[L0oniX]

126. hmmm ...I am hungry.

[MaraJade]

132. Misogyny at work. . .

Everyone knows that a WOMAN would make a lousy President, and that only
the Ladies are capable of "Poisonous Ambition"--

:eyes:

(Wondering what kind of ambition Rove had. . .)

[gulliver]

133. Sean is too good an actor (in life) for his writer.

He's giving a great performance as Sean Penn. Fantastic as usual. But his writing is pretty bad.

[Snarkturian Clone]

138. My official statement back to him is

"Don't underestimate the damage voters who look to a celebrity to tell them who to vote for can do to this country."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

140. Is It Beyond Silly To Look To Celebrities For Political Counsel?

~

[Tactical Progressive]

145. Sean Penn reiterates Obama's sneering at women with ambition

I think they're starting to convince me. Women who think they deserve political power in this country really are power-hungry bitches. Almost evil, actually. I think "poisonous" is probably a pretty good description, though I think Obama was a little more diplomatic when he inferred that it was just unseemly.

But maybe we shouldn't dance around the issue when it comes to craven, power-hungry whores. Maybe Sean Penn is right to just call them what they are, rather than Obama just inferring it. The right wing has no problem showing their contempt over it, but Democrats are so timid about it in this PC climate of ours. PC is so twentieth-century.

In either case, I'm proud of both Obama and Sean Penn for having the courage to make the point in their respective ways. And Oprah too, by implicitly showing her 'empowered women' audience the limits of what is acceptable for women in such a high-profile way.

What these people have done is impressive.

[mzmolly]

147. BRA

VO! ;)

[Beacool]

150. Good actor, but not the most balanced human being.

I guess that the 14 men running for president are not ambitious and are only doing it for the common good, the only ambitious one is obviously the sole woman in the race.......... :puke:

[Imagevision]

153. Obama the finest statesman since JFK - screw all the Hillary garbage...

[Clintonista2]

157. Hey Sean, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Hillary Clinton is the only ambitious person currently running for president :sarcasm: