Iowa newspaper on Obama's caucus 'cheating': "The Illinois Caucus."

[MethuenProgressive]

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/12/03/493315.aspx

If there is one thing Iowan's don't like, it's shenanigans. The Des Moines Register's Yepsen has a VERY provocative headline, "The Illinois Caucus." The piece is about a brochure the Obama camp is passing out explaining to out-of-state Iowa college students that they can participate in the caucuses as long as they register to vote in Iowa. Yepsen: "While it’s legal for college students to register to vote in Iowa to do that, this raises the question of whether it’s fair, or politically smart. No presidential campaign in memory has ever made such a large, open attempt to encourage students from out of state, many of whom pay out-of-state tuition, to participate in the caucuses. No other campaign appears to be doing it in this campaign cycle."

Iowans aren't quite the rubes that a certain candidate thinks they are.

[Egnever]

1. Wow not good if true

I would like to see the brochures

[rurallib]

4. Link here - thanks to Debi

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=152x20340

[MethuenProgressive]

11. The link leads to a scan of the handout telling out of state students how to join a caucus.

Thanks for that link. Maybe now I should edit the 'quotes' off the word 'cheats' in the OP...

[MethuenProgressive]

79. To be fair, that link was provided by an impartial Iowan,

In no way am I trying to say/imply/hint/suggest she's of the same opinion I am about the handout - she is most definitely not, and quite honestly argues it is perfectly OK.
Just shows how two people can look at that same thing and see it different.

[Debi]

86. I am not an Obama supporter, I am an Iowan who understands the law

If you take issue with the law contact Iowa's Attorney General or Secretary of State or any member of the Iowa Legislature who helped enact the law or the Governor who signed the law.

Or, if you'd rather, take it to a public board and throw a tantrum. That'll help.

[MethuenProgressive]

88. I corrected my post as you were composing this.

After I read below where you said you weren't an Obama supporter.
Cross posts happen.

[Debi]

123. Thank you. n/t

[Debi]

18. rurallib, you do know that there is nothing shading with what Obama is doing

right?

[rurallib]

151. Right - I have spent much of my day defending him

Iowa, in particular, has a slew of Chicago kids who would be caucusing had things not gotten so hosed up. During the school year their home is Iowa City, so they should be able to caucus.

[Debi]

152. Thanks rurallib

Living in a college town myself (UNI) these kids work in our stores and restaurants, many live in apartments or houses all over town. They buy food, gas, clothes and other items from our local merchants. You know the Board of Regents has a student member on it and I know some Iowa communities have student advisors or non-voting members to their city councils. UNI and it's students are very much a part of our community.

21,000 out of state Iowa college students can legally participate in the Iowa caucuses if they choose to.

I know you knew that. How Clinton campaign adviser (former Iowa Governor) Tom Vilsack didn't know that I'm not sure. I wonder what kind of support at the polls he got from out of state Iowa college students?

Here's a link to the 2002 general election canvass from the Iowa Secretary of State's office: http://www.sos.state.ia.us/pdfs/elections/2002/results/2002CoDemoGE.pdf

In my home county over 2,500 18-24 year olds voted. I wonder how many of them were from Iowa vs. how many from out of state attending UNI?

[Egnever]

19. Thanks for the link

Not as appalling as I thought,seems to be more informational than outright encouragement to stack the caucus.

However it may be received poorly by the native Iowans. Of course if they really don't want this kind of thing to happen they should change the caucus rules.

[krb123]

100. How is it not good?

Students who live in Iowa for the overwhelming majority of the year are participating in the Iowa caucus....sounds like a big controversy to me!!!!

[rurallib]

2. David Yepsen an effing idiot

I get so tired of him and his right wing slant. Just wanted to get that in. He does not speak for Iowa Dems by any means.
Now that I got that off my chest, U of Iowa has a large contingent of students from Chicago and the collar counties. When the GE comes along next year they will be voting in Iowa City since that is where they live at the time. That includes local issues.
Had the caucus been January 14 as it was scheduled, many of these students would be back and able to attend the caucus. Since one has to actually be present at the caucus - there is no absentee - this is what they need to do to have their vote counted if they so desire.
BTW Obama is not my candidate.

[MethuenProgressive]

15. There's a scan of the questionable handout above- Yepsen didn't forge it, did he?

:shrug:

[Debi]

21. But there is nothing illegal or rule breaking about the handout n/t

[MethuenProgressive]

24. People from out of state who aren't voters can caucus in Iowa?

"If you're not from Iowa..."
from debi's post:
"To become a voter in Iowa one must have a residence in the State. "

[Debi]

35. Yes, people who are attending an Iowa college from another state can register to vote in Iowa

It is legal, you are blowing smoke.

[MethuenProgressive]

39. The "If you're not from Iowa" handout says nothing about registering to vote.

Just says 'you can caucus in your college neighborhood' - do they check to see if they students are registered, Debi?

[Debi]

You can't caucus if you're not registered to vote AND Iowa has same day registration

They must fill out a registration form that asks for their address - in the state of Iowa. Lying on the form is perjury and subject to fines and jail time.

Go do some research, the Iowa Democratic Party has some good information on this. It will save you from looking foolish on this board.

[frazzled]

41. Duh--no: out-of-state students who have a residence in Iowa can register to vote there

I think that is what this effort is about. Probably, most of the other campaigns aren't putting efforts into this because they don't have enough of this group's vote to make it worth the time.

A lot of students from neighboring Illinois go to school in Iowa. Many even have their own apartments there.

[MethuenProgressive]

44. If they're "not from Iowa" they're "from Iowa"?

frazzled: "A lot of students from neighboring Illinois go to school in Iowa."
Ah. Ha.

[Debi]

49. Yes, by law they are at least for the purpose of voting here n/t

[JackORoses]

145. They live in Iowa for most of the year. They have the legal right to caucus.

So what if some come from Illinois? Some come from New York, too.

[Debi]

48. Which are considered 'residences' as are dorm rooms. They are within the law. n/t

[ccpup]

3. Politics of Hope?

more like Politics of Let's Hope They're Not Paying Too Much Attention To How We "Win" This Thing.

But, hey, if 'bama opens the door to out-of-state students voting, then anything goes.

[Tellurian]

5. All the other candidates signed a pledge to keep the Iowa election "clean" except..

for the cheater, Obama!

[ccpup]

6. wow!

really? Now THAT I did not know. Hmmm ... funny none of the 'bama supporters have mentioned that.

[ellacott]

13. There was a pledge that Dodd started

I don't know if this is what they're talking about.

[Tellurian]

102. Yes, it is..But who knew of Obama's desperation. Fear he couldn't win Iowa honestly..

[krb123]

114. Please explain how Obama isn't winning Iowa honestly

Some of his supporters who are students that LIVE in Iowa for most of the year are going to caucus for him....please tell me how that is not "honest". It is in full accordance with the law. And it is completely fair that someone who resides in Iowa for most of the year should be able to participate in Iowa elections/caucuses.

[Tellurian]

115. I'm talking about the thousands his campaign has recruited

That may or may not be students..

[krb123]

118. You're talking about nonsense

Obama is recruiting non-students who don't live in Iowa to caucus in Iowa? Kind of hard to do since you need to reside in Iowa to participate in the caucus. Do you have any sources for this outlandish claim?

[tammywammy]

157. Do you have proof of these thousands he's recruiting?

[ellacott]

127. Wow

WE THE UNDERSIGNED CAMPAIGNS, to ensure a fair caucus process AND MAINTAIN THE INTEGRITY OF IOWA’S FIRST IN THE NATION CAUCUS, pledge that no campaign staff or out-of-state volunteers will be allowed to caucus or be counted as a caucus-goer on January 3rd.

Julie Andreeff Jensen

Paul Tewes
Obama Campaign

Teresa Vilmain
Clinton Campaign

Danny O’Brien
Biden Campaign

Jennifer O’Malley Dillon
Edwards Campaign

Rob Becker
Richardson Campaign

http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=110118

[Debi]

133. Stop it, you're ruining the moment

:rofl:

[Debi]

23. You know that there is no cheating going on here, you just jump from post to post

beating the drum.

[Rock_Garden]

26. Somehow I missed that one. Interesting.

[hedgehog]

75. So, at the caucuses, if an out of state college student wants to caucus

for Senator Clinton, the Clinton people will....

[krb123]

105. Obama cheated? What rule/law did he break?

Please tell me....I'm very curious to hear.

[Debi]

135. One Iowan pointed out the grammar rule (or is it punctuation?)

Its vs. It's

That's probably not what you were talking about ;)

[surfermaw]

7. Are you sure the paper is talking about a democrat

This sounds like something a republican would do!

[madrchsod]

8. delete

[sufrommich]

9. If the Obama campaign goes through with this,

it will backfire on them.Who believes the press will not be there to record the busses pulling in from Illinois?

[ilovesunshine]

10. But, it's okay if Obama does this, right?

He's for change.

*sigh*

[MethuenProgressive]

12. It's not like he bused people in from out of state for the debate audience.

That would be bad, remember?

[Debi]

22. But if the students on those busses are attending college in Iowa

they can legally caucus. So what is wrong with what the Obama campaign is doing?

[NCarolinawoman]

How many Illinois students attend Iowa Colleges?

Looking at the geography, I'd guess that it's a lot more than students from Delaware, NY, NC, etc.

This is another weakness in the caucus system versus the primary system, IMHO. Wasn't Dr. Dean shown on tape complaining of the difficulties with the caucus system?

[Debi]

57. Well, Dean admitted later that he had never seen an Iowa caucus and was complaining

about caucuses he had seen in another state (for the life of me I can't remember where now).

But, how is this a weakness? How is participation by young people in a political process a weakness? The majority of these people will be in Iowa during the general election (and local primaries too). They can be called upon to volunteer and particpate and help the party. Why wouldn't they be asked?

Why omit people from the party when for the majority of the year they live in the state?

[MethuenProgressive]

58. Obama surely knows how many. And is calling for them to claim Iowa as their caucus home.

It may be "legal" as some claim, but its not right.

[Debi]

69. Which is both legal and 'right' by Iowa law and Iowa Caucus rules n/t

[MethuenProgressive]

90. Bus loads of kids from Illinois to caucus for Obama in Iowa...

might be "legal", but its not "right."

[Debi]

126. Bus loads of Iowa college students who went home for winter break and received a ride back to Iowa

in order to participate in the political process us not only legal it is right.

[maddiejoan]

132. Free ride back to College?

Actually sounds like bribery to me.

Something very Tammany Hall about it --will they also get a free beer and a hooker?

[Debi]

137. Not a free ride back to college

a ride to/from the caucuses.

[maddiejoan]

138. who is picking up the tab?

[Debi]

139. It is no different than volunteers who drive people back and forth to the polling sites

on election day.

I'm sure the Obama campaign will pick up the tab 'if' busses are used. However right now the campaign says that the students are arranging their own car pools.

[maddiejoan]

141. If the Obama campaign spends a dime

then it's definately out of bounds.

it's still iffy if campaign volunteers are driving them in carpools.

Giving out free rides back and forth to caucus?
Stinks to high heavens if you ask me.

[Debi]

143. You've never heard of volunteers driving folks to the polls?

It happens at every election here in Iowa.

We want to help people be involved with the process as much as possible here.

[sufrommich]

144. From bordering states?

How often do you imagine that happens in elections?

[Debi]

148. Probably happens more in the primaries than the general elections here

since the primary is in June and most colleges have let out for summer break.

Two colleges in Iowa come to mind. St. Ambrose in Davenport (across the Mississippi river from I think it's Moline) and Luther College in Decorah right across the boarder from Minnesota.

[maddiejoan]

146. across state lines?

No I've never heard of that.

Guess I was an idiot for hitchiking 100 miles home in 1980 to vote for John Anderson.

[Debi]

149. Call yourself what you want. n/t

[MethuenProgressive]

134. They received something (a "free" bus trip) in exchange for their vote?

Are you certain that's legal, debi? How much would that trip cost back to campus if the students had to pay for it themselves?

[Debi]

136. I called the local Obama office and asked them their plans

First of all no schedule for pick up or drop off has been set yet, but when it is set the ride will be to the caucuses and back home. There will be no free ride back to college and nothing 'of value' will be exchanged.

Second the staffer said that most of the students are arranging their own car pools rather than having to take the bus back and forth. Which is why no schedule is being set.

So to answer your question, yes I am certain what the Obama campaign is doing is legal.

You are welcome to make a call to the campaign yourself if you don't feel the information they provided me was correct or accurate.

[Pirate Smile]

140. Thanks for that. People are getting themselves freaked out for no reason

- well, other then legal voters actually caucusing. :wow:

[Renew Deal]

14. MYDD: Democratic Campaigns (Hillary, Dodd) Should Not Advocate Voter Disenfranchisement

I just read a very disturbing piece in the Politico. It appears that both the Clinton and the Dodd campaigns are criticizing the Obama campaign for rallying students to return early to Iowa to participate in the January 3rd Caucus. In effect, what they are doing is advocating for the disenfrachisement of young voters.

David Yepsen, the Dean of the Iowa press corps, stirred up this hornets nest in a blog post, The Illinois Caucus, in which he all but accused the Obama campaign of trying to rig the caucus and privileged the parochialism of "native Iowans" over the rights of young voters - a group often maligned (by Yepsen himself) for their lack of participation:


While it's legal for college students to register to vote in Iowa to do that, this raises the question of whether it's fair, or politically smart. No presidential campaign in memory has ever made such a large, open attempt to encourage students from out of state, many of whom pay out-of-state tuition, to participate in the caucuses. No other campaign appears to be doing it in this campaign cycle.

Tommy Vietor, a spokesman for Obama's campaign, said "we have no intention of doing something here that is in any way illegal or that will raise questions about the credibility of the caucuses." He said election laws allow students to register and vote where they go to college and that means they can caucus in those precincts as well.
<snip>

http://mydd.com/story/2007/12/2/111830/539

This is a fake crisis over Obama encouraging college students who normally caucus to come back early to caucus. It's BS.

[MethuenProgressive]

16. "If you're not from Iowa, you can come back and caucus in your college neighborhood."

If they're voters, they're from Iowa, aren't they? If they're not, they're not.
The only BS here is from BO.

[Adelante]

31. Because the Supreme Court said so 30 years ago

This is not only petty, but it is wrong. Students have a presumptive right to a voting address where they go to school. They can't do both, vote from both home and school. The Republicans have been battling this concept ever since and the Democrats have defended it everywhere in the country. I am extremely sorry to see Democratic candidates using the Republican Playbook on students' voting rights and it's exactly what they are doing here. Iowa encourages student caucusing, in fact, and colleges are opening dorms early so that returning students have a place to sleep when they do it. If the primary calendar had not been so unutterably compressed and the original caucus date held, out of state students would have been snug in their dorms, anyway, going out to caucus (or not) as they choose.

[Debi]

38. Thank goodness someone who understands the law and rules is here

Other than David Yepsen I wonder how many in Iowa are concerned about this? Of course, Iowans might actually know the law so maybe their not so worked up about it.

[Renew Deal]

45. The only difference between 2008 and the past is the caucus is happening when schools are out

That's the only difference. So these are people that would typically vote. All of the campaigns are encouraging people to come back and caucus.

[Debi]

53. Yep, they are. Obama is just making it easier for these people to come back n/t

[Jim Lane]

73. You're absolutely right! This attack on Obama is absurd.

This was an issue in the 1970s. I was one of many students at the University of North Carolina whose right to vote in Chapel Hill was challenged by some of the local rednecks, who didn't like the way students were helping to elect progressive candidates. The court ruled in our favor.

This is not "cheating" or "shenanigans". What about the old fallback position, "Well, it may be legal, but it looks bad"? I think it looks bad for Democrats to be taking up a right-wing cause from decades ago, just because it happens to work to their advantage in this particular situation.

I'm not backing Obama, by the way.

[Adelante]

80. "it looks bad for Democrats to be taking up a right-wing cause from decades ago"

Thank you. It certainly does look bad and smells even worse.

[Debi]

87. Maybe Precinct Caucus Chairs should ask for their 'papers' when they get off the bus n/t

[Adelante]

103. Only Clinton or Dodd precinct chairs

Since obviously they're the ones who consider Iowa law, backed by federal law, lax in election protection. :eyes:

[Debi]

124. You forgot the rules established by the Iowa Democratic Party as well

The republicans will be requiring IDs this time around :puke:

[CTLawGuy]

154. that's exactly what it is:

Republican.

It's sick to think that Democratic candidates would try to discourage legal residents from registering to vote.

[Tom Rinaldo]

20. I think it is politically foolish though

If Iowa were a primary state it would be different, with secret ballots rather than people literally "standing" for the person they support at a caucus meeting. Yes it is legal, and because it is legal it is not inproper, but a flock of out of staters wearing orange hats while campaigning for a candidate in 2004 was legal also. Voting is very personal in an Iowa caucus, with friends and neighbors taking cues from each other in a very public setting.

[Debi]

27. Which is why it didn't happen in 2004

But this is different, because the people being offered the ride aren't out of state volunteers but student of Iowa colleges who are eligble to participate in the caucuses.

[Tom Rinaldo]

46. The distinction lies somewhere between technical and meaningful

If a student who lives in Iowa during the school season and usually returns to his/her former state when school is out of session, manages to still be involved with the local community rather than being an "Iowan" on campus grounds only, that student showing up at a caucus meeting on his or her own volition won't seem like a blatant outsider being used by a political machine. But if a bunch of students who none of the locals have ever seen before get off of an out of state bus after having seemingly having been recruited to vote in Iowa by one of the candidates, that might come off differently.

[Debi]

51. If they have an Iowa address and are registered to vote, they can vote.

You don't have to be a political activist to participate in the caucuses.

[MethuenProgressive]

55. "If you're not from Iowa, you can come back and caucus in your college neighborhood."

You say he's actually addressing people who *are* from Iowa by addressing them as "not from Iowa"?
And you don't see any reason anyone should wonder about the ethics here?

[Debi]

59. You are being purposely thick

An out of state Iowa college student is considered 'from Iowa' for the purpose of voting and participation in the caucuses IF the person chooses to become a registered voter in Iowa. They must provide and Iowa address on the voter registration form.

The law is clear. You are trying to cloud it.

[MethuenProgressive]

70. "The law is clear. You are trying to cloud it. " *I'm* trying to cloud it??

That's an interesting spin on Obama's "If you're not from Iowa" get-out-the-vote push, debi.

[Debi]

76. You keep saying Obama is cheating even though I've provided you with the Iowa law

that shows otherwise. You repeating it doesn't make it so.

[Tom Rinaldo]

65. I already said that: "Yes it is legal, and because it is legal it is not inproper"

I said that in my first post on this thread. That wasn't my point though, you actually addressed my point more in your first reply, we are moving backwards here.

[Debi]

82. I didn't mean to argue. n/t

[MethuenProgressive]

112. "because it is legal it is not inproper" I strongly disagree, Tom.

I'm old enough to remember many laws being highly improper. In fact, many still are. Aren't they?

[krb123]

116. You are correct in that something legal is not always proper, BUT

in this particular instance, there is nothing improper with what Obama or his supporters are doing.

Besides being fully legal, I see nothing wrong or immoral with students who reside in Iowa for the overwhelming majority of the year participating in Iowa's caucus.

[Tom Rinaldo]

130. Sure, but a case can be made either way about what a good law would say here

A logical case can certainly be made for those students being legally able to vote in Iowa. So since a law exists that defines who can and can not vote in this case, it is not inproper to follow that law, at least it is not obviously improper.

However whether or not long time Iowa resididents feel it is inproprer or not is a relevent political consideration. I would leave it to them to make their own subjective judgments, which likely will be made very public during the various caucuses.

It is difficult in politics to ignore strategies that are legal if opponents are also free to use those strategies. But some might feel there is too significant a risk of a local backlash and/or national bad press to attempt certain strategies.

If nothing else Obama's actions created a local controversy. If he now wins in Iowa it also provides a potential excuse that his opponents can use to minimize Obama's margin of victory. Those are political downside considerations. Winning of course carries a big political upside.

[Debi]

17. It's legal and within the rules. The Obama campaign is doing nothing wrong

Here's part of a memo that a former chairman of the Iowa Democratic Party wrote in 2003.

<snip>

Iowa Code Section 43.91 provides that only eligible Iowa voters may participate in the caucus. The only expansion upon that right is the additional factor is that if they are not an eligible voter on the evening of the caucus they will become one by the date of the next general election.

To become a voter in Iowa one must have a residence in the State. To have a residence in Iowa, one must have a home in the precinct "with the intent to remain there permanently or for a definite or indefinite or indeterminable length of time." (Iowa Code Section 48.5A). Further, a non-resident, with a voting registration in another state is not eligible to register in Iowa (i.e. "not claim the right to vote in more than one place." See Section 48A.5(1)(d).

Additionally, there is a limitation on what can be established as a residence. Under Code Section 48A.5A Determination of Residence (2) provides that "a residence for purposes of this chapter cannot be established in a commercial or industrial building that is not normally used for residential purposes", i.e. which I think we can reasonably take to mean not a hotel or a campaign headquarters.

(Note: if this discussion continues, there is a specific exception for students, who may declare either their campus residence or their hometown as their residence, but not both. See 48A.5 (5)).

<snip>

Since Iowa now has same-day registration the students can be bussed into Iowa from their home state and register at their caucus that evening.

++++

David Yepsen is a tool who is trying to stir up controversy where there is none. The man loves to see his name in print and I'm sure hopes that another Meet The Press or C-SPAN moment will come from his article. He's been doing this long enough that he knows better.

The Iowa Caucuses are clean and fair. The complaining campaigns are blowing smoke and/or sorry that they didn't think of this first.

[MethuenProgressive]

28. "To become a voter in Iowa one must have a residence in the State. "

"If you're not from Iowa, you can come back and caucus in your college neighborhood."
So. It is cheating to encourage people who are not from Iowa to attend the causcus.

[Debi]

32. Read all of it instead of cherry-picking

"To have a residence in Iowa, one must have a home in the precinct "with the intent to remain there permanently or for a definite or indefinite or indeterminable length of time." (Iowa Code Section 48.5A). Further, a non-resident, with a voting registration in another state is not eligible to register in Iowa (i.e. "not claim the right to vote in more than one place." See Section 48A.5(1)(d)."

As long as the student has a residence (and for the purposes of the law a dorm room or apartment is a residence) they can register to vote in Iowa (the last part means that then they can't register to also vote in their home state - they have to choose).

It is legal. It is not cheating.

[MNDemNY]

60. True,

And when Barry Bonds used steroids, it was not against MLB rules. But, was it right?

[Debi]

62. No, but the law in Iowa is clear and out of state students who attend Iowa colleges

can legally register to vote and caucus. They are not the same thing.

[zulchzulu]

30. Thanks for clearing that up

I may start a thread with your info if the usual suspects get out of hand...

[Debi]

40. Please do so, but also ask for imput from Iowans

see how the folks who may know the law feel about it.

(Oh, and remember, when these students LEGALLY participate in the caucuses it bars them from participating in their home state's contest. So, for every person who is from Illinois caucusing for Obama that is one less vote IN Illinois for Obama).

[Inuca]

25. Did anybody click on the link? Here is the rest

the paragraph right after the one quoted in the OP

Didn't Paul Simon, Dick Gephardt, and Walter Mondale all have similar efforts in '84 and '88? All three were from adjacent states. That said, this piece is going to grow in legend. This is the type of stuff the Clinton-supporting blogs will run wild with.

Just to put things into perspective a bit...

[Beacool]

29. Hmmm, I wonder how many out of state students....

do supporters of the other candidates have in Iowa? If Obama can potentially bring "thousands" of these students to caucus for him, then should the others do the same to even the playing field?

[MethuenProgressive]

34. How many of those "If you're not from Iowa" students will vote at home too?

Primaries to swing on 18 year olds who vote at home and at school too? Yikes.

[Debi]

63. That is illegal n/t

[karynnj]

94. That is just as illegal as snowbirds

voting in both NY and FL.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

147. You're not very bright, are you? n/t

[Debi]

47. Yes, and I think the complainers didn't think about it and are now

having a knee-jerk temper tantrum.

[MethuenProgressive]

52. You say the 'complainers' are just jealous they didn't think to cheat first?

wow.

[Debi]

61. It's not cheating, and you are being obtuse n/t

[murbley40]

33. kick

[Tellurian]

117. double kick

:dem:

[karynnj]

36. Give me a break - where did people here register when they were in college?

I registered in my Big Ten school in the early 1970s as soon as the law passed. The Democrats always argued that it was the right of students to do so.

[MethuenProgressive]

42. Kennebunk. Voted absentee, like the law said I was supposed to.

And I wanted to vote in my local elections.

[karynnj]

54. What law?

I went to school in-state, but IU made it very clear that we had the choice of voting in Bloomington.

[MethuenProgressive]

64. You can have only one legal residence. That's a law. Except in Iowa?

I lived in Kennebunk. I went to school away. When elections were held at home and I couldn't vote in person I voted absentee. Legally. Never heard of it?

[Debi]

67. A person can only vote in one state. Iowa law gives them the opportunity to vote here

Where you lived or where you went to school don't really govern Iowa law.

[karynnj]

84. The interpretation in Indiana when I was a kid

was you could choose either. In 2004, it was the same at the NYC college my daughter attended.

[desi]

71. What I was thinking..

Since the students have to register in order to caucus in Iowa would they then have to re-register at their home state in order to vote for their Senators and Representative in the General next year? Of course they would have to. This BS is akin to ReTHUGS voting for the Democratic candidate in open primaries so as to have the "weaker" Dem run against their ReTHUG. This is right out of the ReTHUG dirty tricks play-book.

[Debi]

77. Won't they still be in Iowa for the general election?

Unless they've graduated or moved back home they'll be in Iowa in November and vote in the Iowa general elections.

[desi]

93. A hypothetical

Obama does not win the nomination and runs for the Senate again and those students from IL going to college in Iowa wish to vote for him instead of the one running in Iowa....???

[krb123]

96. An answer

a) Obama wouldn't be up for reelection in the US Senate until 2010 - most current students will have graduated by then, anyway.

b) The general election is in November, when all students who go to schools in Iowa will physically be in Iowa.

[desi]

110. Good try...

A) Most? Freshmen, in-state Graduate Students...??? And we all know that not all students graduate in 4 years.

"b) The general election is in November, when all students who go to schools in Iowa will physically be in Iowa."

Exactly...which makes my point. They can NOT vote for Obama if they have registered to participate in the Iowa caucus and MUST re-register in IL and ask for an absentee ballot. Of course that applies to those students from IL who do not wish to vote for the local/national Iowa candidates or issues who have NOT graduated.

[Debi]

121. Another hypothetical

those students have become politically active here in Iowa and want to see their local officals and U.S. Senator and member of Congress from Iowa get reelected...???

[XemaSab]

128. I registered and voted in Humboldt County

But I could have kept my registration in Sacramento or Shasta. :shrug:

[Mass]

37. Seems to me that the Clinton supporters are getting more and more desperate.

Do you want these kids not to vote because they cannot go back home and vote? This has been done again and again. There were even allegation in 2004 that the Dean campaign was pushing its own volunteers to register in Iowa, giving the name of their hotel room as an address. Nothing new there. Bad enough that such a small part of the country decides who will be the nominee. Why should we prevent people who are legally entitled to participate in this choice to do so...

[BeyondGeography]

43. Keep pushing this

Piss off motivated students and it will go down as the Yepsen High Student Turnout Act...and you know who they're voting for.

[MethuenProgressive]

50. Really counting on that "If you're not from Iowa" vote, eh?

Obama was in Boston yesterday begging people from Massachusetts to go to New Hampshire and support him. Sounds like a pattern of behavior to me. Why not try to get people who *are* from Iowa, and who *are* from New Hampshire to support you?

[Renew Deal]

56. What is the exact quote?

Did he ask them to go to NH and volunteer? Did he actually say that they should go there and vote? I bet he didn't. Show us the quotes.

[BeyondGeography]

66. He's evil

I just hope his worldwide Muslim Phantom Voter Program story stays under wraps.

[Debi]

72. You know what, I'm not even an Obama supporter.

I just hate it when folks who don't know the law won't admit it.

Obama is doing nothing wrong.

[BeyondGeography]

74. Thanks for making that factual point

I'm sure that's what will matter in the end.

[MethuenProgressive]

85. debi, just because he's exploiting a loophole and recruiting 'non-Iowan' voters

doesn't mean it is Right. Thanks for explaining the law - that in my opinion has a loophole large enough to drive bus loads of Illinois residents through.

[Debi]

91. It's not a loop-hole.

Why would you think that? Iowa law is just different than the laws where you grew up.

That doesn't make it wrong.

It just makes it different.

Iowa is clean and fair.

[MethuenProgressive]

104. "Why would you think that?" The law that allows "If you're not from Iowa" to vote in Iowa?

Gee. Why would I think that?

[krb123]

101. How can you classify an Iowa student as a "non-Iowan" and "Illinois resident"

when they live in Iowa for the overwhelming majority of the year?

I'm not sure what logic you are using, but whatever it is, I guess it would mean that Hillary Clinton is an Illinois resident...or an Arkansas resident....certainly not a New York resident, though - especially one who should be able to run for a New York Senate seat, no less...

[MethuenProgressive]

106. The Obama Handout: "If you are not from Iowa, you can come back for the Iowa caucus..."

Here's the handout. I'll let Obama tell you in his own words who he is addressing:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=152x20340
"If you are not from Iowa, you can come back for the Iowa caucus in your Iowa neighborhood."

[krb123]

107. I am "not from" Illinois - I grew up in, and am from Connecticut.

But I live in and have resided in Illinois for the past 7 years. So I obviously have a right to vote in Illinois, which I do....and students who may be "from" Illinois, but go to school in Iowa and live there the overwhelming majority of the year obviously have the right to vote in Iowa (as a matter of fairness as well as a matter of the law).

[MethuenProgressive]

109. You're welcome for the answer to your question. Have you another?

Or have you decided this thread is 'all about you'?

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Debi]

68. Any person from any state can 'support' a candidate

I thought we were talking about caucusing and voting.

[desi]

83. What's next?

Begging the ReTHUGS to vote for him in the caucuses and open primaries since they can then vote ReTHUG in the general next year?

[karynnj]

98. Well - HRC did complain that young people don't vote in high numbers.

This could change that - if Obama and Iowa officials make it clear the kids have that right.

[oasis]

78. From "zero" previous presidential ambitions to turning the process upside down. Whew!!

:wow:

[hedgehog]

81. My kids all registered to vote at college as soon as they hit campus.

They wanted to be sure their vote would count and they didn't want to get involved with absentee voting.


Just how many out-of-state college students are we talking about anyways?

[krb123]

89. If you go to school in Iowa, you reside in the state for the overwhelming majority of the year

And so, it is obviously fair that a student going to school in Iowa should participate in the Iowa caucus. Iowa is the state that they live in, and the issues that affect non-students who live in Iowa affect them just the same. It's pretty shaky to suggest that a student that goes to school in Iowa should vote in Illinois instead, just because their parents live there and they spend a handful weeks of the year in Illinois. To then say that it is not "fair" for them to caucus in Iowa, the state they live in, is absolutely absurd.

[Debi]

92. Welcom to DU Krb123

Thank you for being logical. :hi:

[krb123]

97. Thanks Debi

I just stumbled upon this site this morning....it appears that a lot of posters on this site are anything BUT logical!

[Debi]

125. You catch on fast! n/t

[MethuenProgressive]

95. How do life long Iowans feel about thousands of out-of-staters voting in the caucus?

It's now the "How Many Students From Away We Can Bus In" Caucus, not the "Iowa Caucus"?
I can't believe real Iowans are happy with this. Unless they're Obama supporters.

[krb123]

99. How are out-of-state students any different from adults who recently moved to Iowa?

Why would Iowans not be happy about students who attend school in Iowa (and thus live in Iowa), participating in the caucus. Do you think that they would feel ill-will towards adults who have moved to Iowa in the past few years and are participating in the caucus as well?

Do you think that Iowans feel that a person should have lived in Iowa for two decades before they can participate in Iowa caucuses, or something to that effect? You are being silly - most Iowans are much more logical than that and fully realize that students who go to Iowa schools reside in Iowa, face the same issues that other Iowans do, and fully have the right to participate in Iowa caucuses.

[MethuenProgressive]

108. "You are being silly," welcome to DU krb

"Do you think that Iowans feel that a person should have lived in Iowa for two decades before they can participate in Iowa caucuses, or something to that effect?"
What a silly thing to type. Please read your posts before hitting the 'post message' button.

[krb123]

119. Maybe you think it is "silly" because you are too dumb to pick up on sarcasm

Please explain to me how you think it is silly and explain to me why you feel that a person must vote in a state where they reside in the minority of the year.

[MethuenProgressive]

131. krb, one votes where one resides.

To cry that people should be allowed to vote where they do not reside is Un-American.
"If You Are Not From Iowa" says the Obama handout. It is silly to close your eyes and cover your ears to what the handout says, and then argue it doesn't say what it says.

[Sandaasu]

150. How do young people/student feel about getting help and encouragement to participate in the process?

I can't believe that this is an issue. He's helping young people to vote, how horrible!

[Adelante]

111. Republican Playbook against students' voting rights

Here is how it's reading in other states:

Ballot Blocks: A bill in Maine would disenfranchise college students
February 5, 2007

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070219/ballot_blocks

If Maine State Representative Gary Knight (R-Livermore Falls) has his way, that will soon be the case in Maine. On Jan. 31 Knight presented a bill to disenfranchise many college students, LD 203, to the Maine Committee on Veterans and Legal Affairs. The key clause reads: "A student is not a resident of a municipality where the student resides if the student lives in housing owned by an institution of learning while attending the institution unless the student lived in that municipality prior to attending the institution." In short, if you live in dorms, you cannot vote in your college town.

-snip

According to the NYU-affiliated Brennan Center for Justice, the Equal Protection Clause has been successfully invoked to strike down anti-student voting policies in Texas, Michigan, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Massachusetts, and Vermont. Voter suppression efforts, even ones that target short-term residents like college students, are generally considered violations.

Students and voting-rights activists have stepped up in Maine to call attention to LD 203. The Maine College Democrats issued press releases yesterday, some of which resulted in stories on well-trafficked blogs like Daily Kos. The Maine affiliates of the League of Young Voters held a rally outside the State House before the bill's presentation, and some of the activists spoke to the committee against the legislation.

Many local political junkies think the bill will have a difficult time even making it out of committee with an "ought to pass" recommendation. But, regardless of what happens to the bill, there are important lessons to learn from Knight's attempts to restrict student voting: Everyone should be familiar with their voting rights. There are powerful constitutional arguments to deflect attempts at voter disenfranchisement. And, most importantly, students are a targeted group. Maine is not the only state where there have been attempts to block students from voting. Anyone working on voter advocacy should understand the history of student voter suppression--and be prepared to fight back.

It's a terrible thing when Democratic candidates climb on the wrong side of a voting rights issue. Maybe when student activists start picketing their campaign offices around the country, they will be shamed into getting off this GOP train.

[MethuenProgressive]

113. Wes, if a Right Wing Fundi college set up in your town, would you want them voting

for your school board? On your zoning? For your mayor? I cite an extreme to make a point, just as you have. Back on topic: Obama's handout clearly targets, literally targets, the "if you are not from Iowa" group as people he wants to come caucus for him as Iowans. That disenfranchises the actual residents, discounting and diluting the impact they have in their own state.

[Adelante]

120. It's not a favor, it is a constitutional *right* of students to vote from school

Federal law has upheld it as a right again and again. Students have a presumptive right to vote from their school addresses as long as they don't duplicate the vote elsewhere. States cannot gainsay that right. They can only make it as difficult as possible if they want to, (as the GOP tries to do and the DNC defends the students' voting rights) -- which Iowa has not. The Iowa Secretary of State has done the opposite, in fact, in cooperating with student voting groups to educate them on caucus rules and procedures, including out of state student residents of Iowa.

No Iowans are being disenfranchised. They all get to vote, too.

As far as the flyer goes, it's GOTV to me. :shrug:

[MethuenProgressive]

129. "No Iowans are being disenfranchised. They all get to vote, too."

I can see where Obama would be spinning it that way. So, if the "If You Are Not From Iowa" group being targeted out votes the "are from Iowa" group - that's *not* disenfranchisement? Their vote is discounted and diluted by "Not From Iowa" votes - and you're OK with that? Not me. I'm for democracy.

[Adelante]

142. I am for democracy, too

That's why I take voting rights extremely seriously.

Below is what the Iowa Secretary of State website says. It's not up to you or me or Hillary Clinton to decide how Iowa operates its caucus. By the way, if Hillary was doing GOTV on her out of state Iowa student resident supporters, (which I actually expected she would be doing), I would say mazel tov.

Non-Iowa Resident Attending College in Iowa


If you are from another state (i.e. Illinois) and are attending college in Iowa (i.e. Iowa State University), you may register to vote in:

* your Iowa college town or
* your home state (hometown) and vote absentee - subject to the laws of your home state

(You cannot register to vote in both locations)

http://www.sos.state.ia.us/elections/VoterInformation/CollegeStudents.html


Iowa Secretary of State Michael A. Mauro
Invites You to the 2008 Iowa Student Caucus


What: 2008 Iowa Student Caucus

On January 3, 2008 Iowa Democrats and Republicans will take the first step in deciding who will be the next President of the United States. Caucus goers will assemble all over Iowa in meetings to discuss politics, candidates and the issues that concern us most. During the caucus, participants choose which candidate we like the best, which political issues to debate and who we want to elect to participate in the next step in the Presidential selection- the county convention. As a student you will be participating in this exact same process.

When: The weeks prior to the Iowa Caucus (January 3, 2008)

Weeks before the real caucus you and other students like you will be able to learn about how a caucus works, who the candidates are and what they stand for before participating in your own Student Caucus. You will be able to discuss politics, debate upon issues, and choose the candidate that you like best.

Where: Your school

Your school will be the perfect setting for such an event. However, before the caucus can be held you have to know how it works. That is why we have created this curriculum to help you better understand how this process works. This curriculum will also walk you through how to hold your own Student Caucus. You will get to practice what happens at a real caucus along with many other students throughout the state of Iowa. You will get a chance to discuss, debate and decide in your own student caucus. You and many other students in Iowa will vote for whom you want to be the next President of the United States.

Why: Because your vote matters!

The caucuses are important because government impacts our everyday lives. Government has a say in almost everything you do. From laws relating to what foods you are served at school to protection from bullying, government affects you. Because of this it is imperative that you take part in the political process and the caucuses are one of the most significant ways to get involved and make a difference. The Iowa Caucuses are the best example of democracy and it is important to learn about the caucuses at an early age so that when you are able to vote or if you are able to vote that you are an informed voter and, you will participate to make a difference.

How: Sign-up to Participate!

View the step by step participation instructions, fill out the Teacher Application/Sign-up Word image sheet and return it to the Secretary of State's office via email to [email protected], via fax to [phone], or by mail to Iowa Secretary of State, ATTN: Gina Fontanini, Statehouse, Des Moines, Iowa 50319.

Hosted by: Iowa Secretary of State Michael A. Mauro, GDDC, Rock the Vote

http://www.sos.state.ia.us/studentyouth/StudentCaucus/index.html

[CTLawGuy]

153. yeah heaven forbid

legal voters should participate in the process. :eyes:

when I was in college, in a state that allows student voting, the Republicans made every effort to hamper and block students from voting.

For Hillary to stoop to this level is despicable and it shows what kind of person she really is...

[Debi]

155. Is it Friday the 13th or a full moon or something?

You are arguing FOR the Iowa Caucuses?

(Or just for legal particpation in the political process while still holding out??)

:hi:

[CTLawGuy]

158. Im arguing for full participation

in whatever process is given. It burns me up that a so-called Democrat would want to shut legal voters out of the process.

Of course this has NOOOOOTTHING to do with the fact that students heavily favor Obama... Im sure she'd say the same thing if the students favored her...

[DURHAM D]

159. You seem to know more than most on this subject -

so I have a question. Why can't the students from Illinois who caucus in Iowa on January 3rd then drop their new Iowa registration and re-register in Illinois to then vote in their state's primary six weeks later?

The law is clear that you can not vote in two places on the same day but what about weeks later? Seems to me the kids who caucus in Iowa can all re-register for the later primaries in their home states and vote absentee.

[Debi]

160. I'm not the guru on it, but It would seem that participating in the caucuses

would be participating in the presidential selection process.

Although there are different actions and dates for each state there is one process per state. I think that participating in one state would bar the person from participating in any other state's process.

The Illinois primary is Feb. 5th, I don't know Illinois law but I wonder how soon a person has to register to vote in Illinois and how soon an absentee ballot application has to be filed (and what the laws are regarding requesting an absentee ballot). I also wonder what Illinois law states about participating in the process in a different state a little over 30 days before participating in Illinois process.

It is interesting that the only concern seems to be about Illinois students that are going to college in Iowa but not about any students from Minnesota, Wisconsin, Nebraska, South Dakota or Missouri.

I guess the seed has been planted.

[ClarkUSA]

156. Um, Hypocritical Hillaryworld is doing the same thing. Nice of Yepsen to leave that part out.

All that wining and dining the Clintons did with the reporters and editors of The Des Moines Register over the weekend may have helped Yepsen leave
the part out about "The Clintonian Caucus" -- or is he leaving that for the reporters of Nevada?

The Obama campaign contends that it’s doing nothing unusual — that Iowa college students have long caucused near their colleges.
And a separate Register news article quoted Iowa Secretary of State Michael Mauro as saying of the Obama instructions: “I think it's playing within the
rules.”

A Hillary Rodham Clinton campaign official said: “We are not courting out-of-staters. The Iowa caucus ought to be for Iowans.”

In fact, Clinton is counting on the support of some out-of-state students attending Iowa universities. Sarah Sunderman of Iowa State University, who was
announced in a news release as a leader of the “Hill Yea” Students Leaders for Hillary, told the Des Moines Register in October that “she will drive back
early from her home in Minnesota to take part in the Jan. 3 caucuses.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1207/7125.html

Both the Politico and the Chicago Sun-Times are highlighting an older report about the Clinton campaign's efforts to bring out-of-state students back
to Iowa to caucus. The co-president of Students for Hillary at the University of Iowa is an Illinois native:

And as reported earlier this year, the Clinton campaign was trying to organize students in a way we think is perfectly acceptable but obviously hypocritical considering her attack today.]But her student volunteers are working on contingency plans. Nikki Dziuban, a 19-year-old sophomore from the Chicago suburbs, is co-president of Students for Hillary at the University of Iowa. She says the original caucus date of Jan. 14 would boost student turnout because out-of-state students like her would be “more inclined to come back if it’s just a couple days earlier than if it’s right in the middle of break.” (Spring semester there begins Jan. 22.)

As a reminder, the Clinton campaign was the only campaign to aggressively recruit non-Iowans to the JJ as the below information evidences... Clinton Campaign Recruits from Out of State for Iowa Jefferson Jackson Dinner: Sen. Hillary Clinton’s campaign, which is either ahead or tied in the polls in Iowa (depending on whom you ask), has begun recruiting supporters from other Midwestern states to help build up their crowd. In an email obtained last night, Clinton’s Political Director for the Midwest, Sean Johnson, asks out-of-staters to come to Iowa for a “day of action ; ,” which will include a canvass during the day and — perhaps more importantly — a chance to waive signs and look good on camera at the Jefferson Jackson Dinner.

Link 1: http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2007/12/sweet_column_obamas_controvers.html
Link 2: http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=CD24A2C2-3048-5C12-00957B40A6837A9E
Link 3: http://cmondisplay.com/2007/11/03/clinton-campaign-recruits-from-out-of-state-for-iowa-jefferson-jackson-dinner

All of you Obama haters can now aim your outrage at St. Hillary or be called Hillaryous Hypocrites.

*crickets*