Iowa newspaper on Obama's caucus 'cheating': "The Illinois Caucus."

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/12/03/49331...


Iowans aren't quite the rubes that a certain candidate thinks they are.

I would like to see the brochures

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Thanks for that link. Maybe now I should edit the 'quotes' off the word 'cheats' in the OP...

In no way am I trying to say/imply/hint/suggest she's of the same opinion I am about the handout - she is most definitely not, and quite honestly argues it is perfectly OK.
Just shows how two people can look at that same thing and see it different.

If you take issue with the law contact Iowa's Attorney General or Secretary of State or any member of the Iowa Legislature who helped enact the law or the Governor who signed the law.

Or, if you'd rather, take it to a public board and throw a tantrum. That'll help.

After I read below where you said you weren't an Obama supporter.
Cross posts happen.

right?

Iowa, in particular, has a slew of Chicago kids who would be caucusing had things not gotten so hosed up. During the school year their home is Iowa City, so they should be able to caucus.

Living in a college town myself (UNI) these kids work in our stores and restaurants, many live in apartments or houses all over town. They buy food, gas, clothes and other items from our local merchants. You know the Board of Regents has a student member on it and I know some Iowa communities have student advisors or non-voting members to their city councils. UNI and it's students are very much a part of our community.

21,000 out of state Iowa college students can legally participate in the Iowa caucuses if they choose to.

I know you knew that. How Clinton campaign adviser (former Iowa Governor) Tom Vilsack didn't know that I'm not sure. I wonder what kind of support at the polls he got from out of state Iowa college students?

Here's a link to the 2002 general election canvass from the Iowa Secretary of State's office: http://www.sos.state.ia.us/pdfs/elections/2002/results/...

In my home county over 2,500 18-24 year olds voted. I wonder how many of them were from Iowa vs. how many from out of state attending UNI?

Not as appalling as I thought,seems to be more informational than outright encouragement to stack the caucus.

However it may be received poorly by the native Iowans. Of course if they really don't want this kind of thing to happen they should change the caucus rules.

Students who live in Iowa for the overwhelming majority of the year are participating in the Iowa caucus....sounds like a big controversy to me!!!!

I get so tired of him and his right wing slant. Just wanted to get that in. He does not speak for Iowa Dems by any means.
Now that I got that off my chest, U of Iowa has a large contingent of students from Chicago and the collar counties. When the GE comes along next year they will be voting in Iowa City since that is where they live at the time. That includes local issues.
Had the caucus been January 14 as it was scheduled, many of these students would be back and able to attend the caucus. Since one has to actually be present at the caucus - there is no absentee - this is what they need to do to have their vote counted if they so desire.
BTW Obama is not my candidate.

"If you're not from Iowa..."
from debi's post:
"To become a voter in Iowa one must have a residence in the State. "

It is legal, you are blowing smoke.

Just says 'you can caucus in your college neighborhood' - do they check to see if they students are registered, Debi?

They must fill out a registration form that asks for their address - in the state of Iowa. Lying on the form is perjury and subject to fines and jail time.

Go do some research, the Iowa Democratic Party has some good information on this. It will save you from looking foolish on this board.

I think that is what this effort is about. Probably, most of the other campaigns aren't putting efforts into this because they don't have enough of this group's vote to make it worth the time.

A lot of students from neighboring Illinois go to school in Iowa. Many even have their own apartments there.

frazzled: "A lot of students from neighboring Illinois go to school in Iowa."
Ah. Ha.

So what if some come from Illinois? Some come from New York, too.

more like Politics of Let's Hope They're Not Paying Too Much Attention To How We "Win" This Thing.

But, hey, if 'bama opens the door to out-of-state students voting, then anything goes.

for the cheater, Obama!

really? Now THAT I did not know. Hmmm ... funny none of the 'bama supporters have mentioned that.

I don't know if this is what they're talking about.

Some of his supporters who are students that LIVE in Iowa for most of the year are going to caucus for him....please tell me how that is not "honest". It is in full accordance with the law. And it is completely fair that someone who resides in Iowa for most of the year should be able to participate in Iowa elections/caucuses.

That may or may not be students..

Obama is recruiting non-students who don't live in Iowa to caucus in Iowa? Kind of hard to do since you need to reside in Iowa to participate in the caucus. Do you have any sources for this outlandish claim?

WE THE UNDERSIGNED CAMPAIGNS, to ensure a fair caucus process AND MAINTAIN THE INTEGRITY OF IOWA’S FIRST IN THE NATION CAUCUS, pledge that no campaign staff or out-of-state volunteers will be allowed to caucus or be counted as a caucus-goer on January 3rd.

Julie Andreeff Jensen

Paul Tewes
Obama Campaign

Teresa Vilmain
Clinton Campaign

Danny O’Brien
Biden Campaign

Jennifer O’Malley Dillon
Edwards Campaign

Rob Becker
Richardson Campaign

http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=110118

beating the drum.

for Senator Clinton, the Clinton people will....

Please tell me....I'm very curious to hear.

Its vs. It's

That's probably not what you were talking about

This sounds like something a republican would do!

it will backfire on them.Who believes the press will not be there to record the busses pulling in from Illinois?

He's for change.

*sigh*

That would be bad, remember?

they can legally caucus. So what is wrong with what the Obama campaign is doing?

Looking at the geography, I'd guess that it's a lot more than students from Delaware, NY, NC, etc.

This is another weakness in the caucus system versus the primary system, IMHO. Wasn't Dr. Dean shown on tape complaining of the difficulties with the caucus system?

about caucuses he had seen in another state (for the life of me I can't remember where now).

But, how is this a weakness? How is participation by young people in a political process a weakness? The majority of these people will be in Iowa during the general election (and local primaries too). They can be called upon to volunteer and particpate and help the party. Why wouldn't they be asked?

Why omit people from the party when for the majority of the year they live in the state?

It may be "legal" as some claim, but its not right.

might be "legal", but its not "right."

in order to participate in the political process us not only legal it is right.

Actually sounds like bribery to me.

Something very Tammany Hall about it --will they also get a free beer and a hooker?

a ride to/from the caucuses.

on election day.

I'm sure the Obama campaign will pick up the tab 'if' busses are used. However right now the campaign says that the students are arranging their own car pools.

then it's definately out of bounds.

it's still iffy if campaign volunteers are driving them in carpools.

Giving out free rides back and forth to caucus?
Stinks to high heavens if you ask me.

It happens at every election here in Iowa.

We want to help people be involved with the process as much as possible here.

How often do you imagine that happens in elections?

since the primary is in June and most colleges have let out for summer break.

Two colleges in Iowa come to mind. St. Ambrose in Davenport (across the Mississippi river from I think it's Moline) and Luther College in Decorah right across the boarder from Minnesota.

No I've never heard of that.

Guess I was an idiot for hitchiking 100 miles home in 1980 to vote for John Anderson.

Are you certain that's legal, debi? How much would that trip cost back to campus if the students had to pay for it themselves?

First of all no schedule for pick up or drop off has been set yet, but when it is set the ride will be to the caucuses and back home. There will be no free ride back to college and nothing 'of value' will be exchanged.

Second the staffer said that most of the students are arranging their own car pools rather than having to take the bus back and forth. Which is why no schedule is being set.

So to answer your question, yes I am certain what the Obama campaign is doing is legal.

You are welcome to make a call to the campaign yourself if you don't feel the information they provided me was correct or accurate.

- well, other then legal voters actually caucusing.

I just read a very disturbing piece in the Politico. It appears that both the Clinton and the Dodd campaigns are criticizing the Obama campaign for rallying students to return early to Iowa to participate in the January 3rd Caucus. In effect, what they are doing is advocating for the disenfrachisement of young voters.

David Yepsen, the Dean of the Iowa press corps, stirred up this hornets nest in a blog post, The Illinois Caucus, in which he all but accused the Obama campaign of trying to rig the caucus and privileged the parochialism of "native Iowans" over the rights of young voters - a group often maligned (by Yepsen himself) for their lack of participation:


While it's legal for college students to register to vote in Iowa to do that, this raises the question of whether it's fair, or politically smart. No presidential campaign in memory has ever made such a large, open attempt to encourage students from out of state, many of whom pay out-of-state tuition, to participate in the caucuses. No other campaign appears to be doing it in this campaign cycle.

Tommy Vietor, a spokesman for Obama's campaign, said "we have no intention of doing something here that is in any way illegal or that will raise questions about the credibility of the caucuses." He said election laws allow students to register and vote where they go to college and that means they can caucus in those precincts as well.
<snip>

http://mydd.com/story/2007/12/2/111830/539

This is a fake crisis over Obama encouraging college students who normally caucus to come back early to caucus. It's BS.

If they're voters, they're from Iowa, aren't they? If they're not, they're not.
The only BS here is from BO.

This is not only petty, but it is wrong. Students have a presumptive right to a voting address where they go to school. They can't do both, vote from both home and school. The Republicans have been battling this concept ever since and the Democrats have defended it everywhere in the country. I am extremely sorry to see Democratic candidates using the Republican Playbook on students' voting rights and it's exactly what they are doing here. Iowa encourages student caucusing, in fact, and colleges are opening dorms early so that returning students have a place to sleep when they do it. If the primary calendar had not been so unutterably compressed and the original caucus date held, out of state students would have been snug in their dorms, anyway, going out to caucus (or not) as they choose.

Other than David Yepsen I wonder how many in Iowa are concerned about this? Of course, Iowans might actually know the law so maybe their not so worked up about it.

That's the only difference. So these are people that would typically vote. All of the campaigns are encouraging people to come back and caucus.

This was an issue in the 1970s. I was one of many students at the University of North Carolina whose right to vote in Chapel Hill was challenged by some of the local rednecks, who didn't like the way students were helping to elect progressive candidates. The court ruled in our favor.

This is not "cheating" or "shenanigans". What about the old fallback position, "Well, it may be legal, but it looks bad"? I think it looks bad for Democrats to be taking up a right-wing cause from decades ago, just because it happens to work to their advantage in this particular situation.

I'm not backing Obama, by the way.

Thank you. It certainly does look bad and smells even worse.

Since obviously they're the ones who consider Iowa law, backed by federal law, lax in election protection.

The republicans will be requiring IDs this time around

Republican.

It's sick to think that Democratic candidates would try to discourage legal residents from registering to vote.

If Iowa were a primary state it would be different, with secret ballots rather than people literally "standing" for the person they support at a caucus meeting. Yes it is legal, and because it is legal it is not inproper, but a flock of out of staters wearing orange hats while campaigning for a candidate in 2004 was legal also. Voting is very personal in an Iowa caucus, with friends and neighbors taking cues from each other in a very public setting.

But this is different, because the people being offered the ride aren't out of state volunteers but student of Iowa colleges who are eligble to participate in the caucuses.

If a student who lives in Iowa during the school season and usually returns to his/her former state when school is out of session, manages to still be involved with the local community rather than being an "Iowan" on campus grounds only, that student showing up at a caucus meeting on his or her own volition won't seem like a blatant outsider being used by a political machine. But if a bunch of students who none of the locals have ever seen before get off of an out of state bus after having seemingly having been recruited to vote in Iowa by one of the candidates, that might come off differently.

You don't have to be a political activist to participate in the caucuses.

You say he's actually addressing people who *are* from Iowa by addressing them as "not from Iowa"?
And you don't see any reason anyone should wonder about the ethics here?

An out of state Iowa college student is considered 'from Iowa' for the purpose of voting and participation in the caucuses IF the person chooses to become a registered voter in Iowa. They must provide and Iowa address on the voter registration form.

The law is clear. You are trying to cloud it.

That's an interesting spin on Obama's "If you're not from Iowa" get-out-the-vote push, debi.

that shows otherwise. You repeating it doesn't make it so.

I said that in my first post on this thread. That wasn't my point though, you actually addressed my point more in your first reply, we are moving backwards here.

I'm old enough to remember many laws being highly improper. In fact, many still are. Aren't they?

in this particular instance, there is nothing improper with what Obama or his supporters are doing.

Besides being fully legal, I see nothing wrong or immoral with students who reside in Iowa for the overwhelming majority of the year participating in Iowa's caucus.

A logical case can certainly be made for those students being legally able to vote in Iowa. So since a law exists that defines who can and can not vote in this case, it is not inproper to follow that law, at least it is not obviously improper.

However whether or not long time Iowa resididents feel it is inproprer or not is a relevent political consideration. I would leave it to them to make their own subjective judgments, which likely will be made very public during the various caucuses.

It is difficult in politics to ignore strategies that are legal if opponents are also free to use those strategies. But some might feel there is too significant a risk of a local backlash and/or national bad press to attempt certain strategies.

If nothing else Obama's actions created a local controversy. If he now wins in Iowa it also provides a potential excuse that his opponents can use to minimize Obama's margin of victory. Those are political downside considerations. Winning of course carries a big political upside.

Here's part of a memo that a former chairman of the Iowa Democratic Party wrote in 2003.

<snip>

Iowa Code Section 43.91 provides that only eligible Iowa voters may participate in the caucus. The only expansion upon that right is the additional factor is that if they are not an eligible voter on the evening of the caucus they will become one by the date of the next general election.

To become a voter in Iowa one must have a residence in the State. To have a residence in Iowa, one must have a home in the precinct "with the intent to remain there permanently or for a definite or indefinite or indeterminable length of time." (Iowa Code Section 48.5A). Further, a non-resident, with a voting registration in another state is not eligible to register in Iowa (i.e. "not claim the right to vote in more than one place." See Section 48A.5(1)(d).

Additionally, there is a limitation on what can be established as a residence. Under Code Section 48A.5A Determination of Residence (2) provides that "a residence for purposes of this chapter cannot be established in a commercial or industrial building that is not normally used for residential purposes", i.e. which I think we can reasonably take to mean not a hotel or a campaign headquarters.

(Note: if this discussion continues, there is a specific exception for students, who may declare either their campus residence or their hometown as their residence, but not both. See 48A.5 (5)).

<snip>

Since Iowa now has same-day registration the students can be bussed into Iowa from their home state and register at their caucus that evening.

++++

David Yepsen is a tool who is trying to stir up controversy where there is none. The man loves to see his name in print and I'm sure hopes that another Meet The Press or C-SPAN moment will come from his article. He's been doing this long enough that he knows better.

The Iowa Caucuses are clean and fair. The complaining campaigns are blowing smoke and/or sorry that they didn't think of this first.

"If you're not from Iowa, you can come back and caucus in your college neighborhood."
So. It is cheating to encourage people who are not from Iowa to attend the causcus.

"To have a residence in Iowa, one must have a home in the precinct "with the intent to remain there permanently or for a definite or indefinite or indeterminable length of time." (Iowa Code Section 48.5A). Further, a non-resident, with a voting registration in another state is not eligible to register in Iowa (i.e. "not claim the right to vote in more than one place." See Section 48A.5(1)(d)."

As long as the student has a residence (and for the purposes of the law a dorm room or apartment is a residence) they can register to vote in Iowa (the last part means that then they can't register to also vote in their home state - they have to choose).

It is legal. It is not cheating.

And when Barry Bonds used steroids, it was not against MLB rules. But, was it right?

can legally register to vote and caucus. They are not the same thing.

I may start a thread with your info if the usual suspects get out of hand...

see how the folks who may know the law feel about it.

(Oh, and remember, when these students LEGALLY participate in the caucuses it bars them from participating in their home state's contest. So, for every person who is from Illinois caucusing for Obama that is one less vote IN Illinois for Obama).

the paragraph right after the one quoted in the OP



Just to put things into perspective a bit...

do supporters of the other candidates have in Iowa? If Obama can potentially bring "thousands" of these students to caucus for him, then should the others do the same to even the playing field?

Primaries to swing on 18 year olds who vote at home and at school too? Yikes.

voting in both NY and FL.

having a knee-jerk temper tantrum.

wow.

I registered in my Big Ten school in the early 1970s as soon as the law passed. The Democrats always argued that it was the right of students to do so.

And I wanted to vote in my local elections.

I went to school in-state, but IU made it very clear that we had the choice of voting in Bloomington.

I lived in Kennebunk. I went to school away. When elections were held at home and I couldn't vote in person I voted absentee. Legally. Never heard of it?

Where you lived or where you went to school don't really govern Iowa law.

was you could choose either. In 2004, it was the same at the NYC college my daughter attended.

Since the students have to register in order to caucus in Iowa would they then have to re-register at their home state in order to vote for their Senators and Representative in the General next year? Of course they would have to. This BS is akin to ReTHUGS voting for the Democratic candidate in open primaries so as to have the "weaker" Dem run against their ReTHUG. This is right out of the ReTHUG dirty tricks play-book.

Unless they've graduated or moved back home they'll be in Iowa in November and vote in the Iowa general elections.

Obama does not win the nomination and runs for the Senate again and those students from IL going to college in Iowa wish to vote for him instead of the one running in Iowa....???

a) Obama wouldn't be up for reelection in the US Senate until 2010 - most current students will have graduated by then, anyway.

b) The general election is in November, when all students who go to schools in Iowa will physically be in Iowa.

A) Most? Freshmen, in-state Graduate Students...??? And we all know that not all students graduate in 4 years.

"b) The general election is in November, when all students who go to schools in Iowa will physically be in Iowa."

Exactly...which makes my point. They can NOT vote for Obama if they have registered to participate in the Iowa caucus and MUST re-register in IL and ask for an absentee ballot. Of course that applies to those students from IL who do not wish to vote for the local/national Iowa candidates or issues who have NOT graduated.

those students have become politically active here in Iowa and want to see their local officals and U.S. Senator and member of Congress from Iowa get reelected...???

But I could have kept my registration in Sacramento or Shasta.

Do you want these kids not to vote because they cannot go back home and vote? This has been done again and again. There were even allegation in 2004 that the Dean campaign was pushing its own volunteers to register in Iowa, giving the name of their hotel room as an address. Nothing new there. Bad enough that such a small part of the country decides who will be the nominee. Why should we prevent people who are legally entitled to participate in this choice to do so...

Piss off motivated students and it will go down as the Yepsen High Student Turnout Act...and you know who they're voting for.

Obama was in Boston yesterday begging people from Massachusetts to go to New Hampshire and support him. Sounds like a pattern of behavior to me. Why not try to get people who *are* from Iowa, and who *are* from New Hampshire to support you?

Did he ask them to go to NH and volunteer? Did he actually say that they should go there and vote? I bet he didn't. Show us the quotes.

I just hope his worldwide Muslim Phantom Voter Program story stays under wraps.

I just hate it when folks who don't know the law won't admit it.

Obama is doing nothing wrong.

I'm sure that's what will matter in the end.

doesn't mean it is Right. Thanks for explaining the law - that in my opinion has a loophole large enough to drive bus loads of Illinois residents through.

Why would you think that? Iowa law is just different than the laws where you grew up.

That doesn't make it wrong.

It just makes it different.

Iowa is clean and fair.

Gee. Why would I think that?

when they live in Iowa for the overwhelming majority of the year?

I'm not sure what logic you are using, but whatever it is, I guess it would mean that Hillary Clinton is an Illinois resident...or an Arkansas resident....certainly not a New York resident, though - especially one who should be able to run for a New York Senate seat, no less...

Here's the handout. I'll let Obama tell you in his own words who he is addressing:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
"If you are not from Iowa, you can come back for the Iowa caucus in your Iowa neighborhood."

But I live in and have resided in Illinois for the past 7 years. So I obviously have a right to vote in Illinois, which I do....and students who may be "from" Illinois, but go to school in Iowa and live there the overwhelming majority of the year obviously have the right to vote in Iowa (as a matter of fairness as well as a matter of the law).

Or have you decided this thread is 'all about you'?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I thought we were talking about caucusing and voting.

Begging the ReTHUGS to vote for him in the caucuses and open primaries since they can then vote ReTHUG in the general next year?

This could change that - if Obama and Iowa officials make it clear the kids have that right.