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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 02:31 PM
Original message
Rating Democrats on Electability
Edited on Tue Nov-27-07 02:35 PM by Tom Rinaldo
First the disclaimers. We are in the realm of subjectivity here, which is highly vulnerable to the art of "spin". It's not like looking at candidate position papers and voting records, it is guessing how voters will react to a person, their positions, their image, and overall how well they campaign. And electability is not the end all criteria for selecting a candidate either. Reagan was more "electable" than Mondale in 1984, which wasn't a good reason for me to support Reagan. Or more to the point; I would be much happier seeing Al Gore narrowly elected President of the United States than seeing Evan Bayh coast to that same victory. But there is something about avoiding losing the Presidency to yet another reactionary Republican which is compelling. Slippery as it is to get a handle on, electability is an important concept and merits some consideration when choosing a candidate to support.

My second basic disclaimer is this. Any Democrat who can master the political skills necessary to win the Democratic nomination has at least some chance to be elected President of the United States when the race boils down to them vs the Republican candidate, and possibly one or two major Independents. An unpopular Democrat can defeat an even more unpopular Republican; a controversial Democrat can defeat an even more controversial Republican, etc.

Here is how I rate our candidates on an overall scale of electability; from most to least. I fully realize this will be controversial, and how any of us rank our candidates will somewhat depend on how much weight we give to different variables. I also believe that our strongest potential candidates were men who decided not to run:

1)Biden
2)Clinton
3)Richardson
4)Obama
5)Edwards
6)Dodd
7)Kucinich
8)Gravel

Ideologically I personally tend to have more in common with the Democrats who fall lower rather than higher on this list. But in my mind it isn't the left of center ideology of those who I ranked relatively poorly that is the predominant reason for their not being more electable than I consider them to be. I think the candidates of the Left this time around all have individual liabilities that weaken them, liabilities which have relatively little to do with their articulated ideology.

Positions on issues are obviously important, but they are most important to a relatively small minority of voters who are either policy wonks or passionate near or total single issue voters. Many voters start out using Party labels for their initial screens. There are initial guiding presumptions made about those who run under the Democratic "Brand", and those who run under the Republican "Brand". Simply winning the nomination of one of the two major Parties is most (though far from all) of the battle for votes. Then some semi intangibles come into play that make one or another Democratic candidate more or less electable than another that don't always have a whole lot to do with literal ideology.

It is precisely because many of these are so difficult to categorize that they are so subjective and difficult to discuss and evaluate. They include many of the slippery words we see get thrown around like; charisma, stature, vitality, gravitas, and "seeming presidential"; plus variables like poise, passion, intelligence and experience. Plus there is always the matter of the quality of the campaign team that a candidate manages to assemble behind him or her. Here are a few of my observations about our potential candidates in regards to the General Election:

Joe Biden. He increasingly is looking like a grayback in the Democratic Party; that is a seasoned weathered leader who knows what he is talking about and is never in over his head. No one seriously questions Biden's experience or intrinsic qualifications for the job. He is not closely identified with any ideological pole of our Party, which might sap him of some potential support in the primaries but would make him at least minimally acceptable to a wide range of Democrats and likely other voters as well. He has some identified past baggage but nothing so heavy as to make him limp. The surprise upside for Biden's campaign this year has been his nimble use of self humor, while at the same time sharply and even concisely making important points on matters of substance and importance. He is manifesting flair which would compliment his gravitas. If he could get past the Democratic primaries I think Biden would be a winner.

Hillary Clinton. She is a thoroughly political animal having been an unofficial co-pilot to Bill Clinton's entire political career, not just his time in the White House. She well understands both the game of politics and the practice of governance, and germain to the point it shows. None of our candidates come across as having greater poise and/or intelligence than Hillary Clinton, who overall has remained remarkably cool under fire for over a decade. Her baggage is much heavier than Biden's, but she too carries it without limping. But more so than Biden, Hillary Clinton also plausibly gets to carry around a real trophy, intimate participation in a two term Democratic Presidential Administration that a strong majority of Americans undoubtedly would respond in the affirmative to if asked; "Were you better off under the last Democratic Administration than you are under the current Republican one?" Bill Clinton is a plus to Hillary in the primaries but an even bigger plus to her in the General Election, even factoring in "dynasty" criticism which I to a degree find valid. Overall I think Clinton being a woman is a net positive for her, but only because she has been battle tested and rated as "tough". Hillary Clinton does not have to be liked by all those who would vote for her over a Republican, just respected as highly competent, saner than the alternatives, and strong enough for the job. She also has a cracker jack campaign staff which is much more crucial than many are quick to acknowledge when it comes to securing a victory.

Bill Richardson. Somewhat of an electoral enigma, Richardson was always considered the top dark horse candidate in the announced field but he has consistently underperformed expectations of him. He has sufficient gravitas but has fallen flat on charisma. Still, if he somehow managed to win the Democratic nomination that in itself would generate a degree of excitement about him that would to an extent transform his image. Richardson has all the experience bases covered, and is our most well rounded candidate in that regard. Few would argue that he isn't well enough prepared to become President. Richardson is Latino but comes across "white enough" to not set off many racist bells against him. Richardson is also from a swing region of the nation, the South West, that Democrats hope to swing blue. Some rumors about personal baggage may or may not be a factor if he is our nominee, but Richardson can play both the Washington insider and outsider cards simultaneously, which is a neat trick to call on in a General Election.

Barack Obama. Few fail to see enormous potential in Barack Obama. He is obviously an up and coming leader who is clearly highly intelligent and well poised beyond his years. But it is that emphasis on potential and ability beyond his years that is a double edged sword for Obama. The question simply can not be avoided, even by those who conclude that the answer is "no"; is it too early for him to seek the Presidency? Obama has successfully won the mantle of "change candidate" in most voters eyes, with his racial background providing added emphasis to that identification. He has strong appeal to youth in particular, and obvious appeal to minorities. Overall Obama has replaced John Edwards as the "candidate of hope" this time around. Objectively though, his resume is relatively thin for a Presidential candidate. Obama can not compete with some of the others toe to toe on that criteria, he can only make the case that he has enough experience and good judgment to be a good Commander in Chief, which will continue to be subject to debate, and which Republicans (depending to an extent on who their nominee is) will continually seek to exploit. The combination of Barack Obama being African American, and having a relatively thin resume, poses a special potential risk for the General Election. Soft racism could hang its hat on Obama's youthful "inexperience", giving some voters who are still subliminally uncomfortable with electing a Black man President a socially more acceptable excuse to pass on him that someone like Colin Powell, for example, would not give them. There are many wild cards with Obama that can break either way.

John Edwards. John Edwards has consolidated his standing as the most consistently recognizable voice for America's economically disadvantaged in the current field of Democratic Candidates. He has a great deal of strong Union support for one telling example of that. Edwards has also made significant progress in winning over many anti-war voters who felt betrayed by his 2002 co-sponsorship of the IWR. He, Dennis Kucinich, and Mike Gravel, have become the Democratic candidates most willing to confront the established status quo in American politics. Like Barack Obama however, John Edwards also has to contend with a relatively thin political resume for seeking the Presidency of the United States, but in his case his past resume is often in conflict with the positions Edwards now takes on major issues facing America. I believe those inconsistencies will be a constant source of Republican attacks on Edwards if he wins the nomination, and there is too much ammunition provided by Edward's record in Congress to simply dismiss that type of charge as unfair political muckraking. There also has been a fair amount of political commentary this year that focuses on perceived major differences in the tone and substance of the 2004 and 2008 Edwards campaigns, which could further play into attacks on his consistency. Edwards is a skilled politician and he certainly is prepared to deal with that type of attack, but it will take up a fair amount of his energy to do so. Edwards clearly has some real charisma, but for whatever reason he did not make a strong impression for many as the Democratic Vice Presidential candidate in 2004. He will need to kick it up a level or two if he wins the 2008 nomination.

Chris Dodd. Though arguably Dodd can present as strong a case on experience and competency as any of the Democratic candidates for President this year, unlike Joe Biden, Dodd hasn't gotten over the bar of "seeming Presidential" enough for enough voters this year in order to be competitive. Though, like Biden, the cards were always stacked against Dodd, Biden has consistently played his rigged hand more skillfully than has Dodd. Maybe it's just from having been a guest on Meet The Press about 900 times already, or maybe it's because he chairs a critically important Senate Committee, but Joe Biden has substantially prevailed over Chris Dodd in the race for dark horse candidate this year. I actually like Dodd a lot, and I can't put my finger exactly on what it is, but something seems to be lacking for him as a Presidential candidate and I have to assume that might still be lacking if he were to face the Republican candidate next year.

Dennis Kucinich. To most observers Kucinich is the candidate most clearly identified with the Left in the Democratic field this year, and it is always a double edged sword in American politics to be strongly identified with either political pole. It earns passion both for and against you. Perceived extremes make many voters uncomfortable, so any time a candidate is tagged as being far from the mushy middle they have to be able to sell their position skillfully to the public. The fact that Dennis Kucinich lags so far behind other Democratic candidates in fund raising, even among small donors, does not bode well for Kucinich. Neither does the fact that he was never considered a serious threat to even win his own State primary in Ohio in 2004. Whatever ails the Kucinich campaign, that kept anti-war activists from mostly consolidating around him in 2004 rather than around a then little known Governor from the small state of Vermont, seems to remain unsolved.

Mike Gravel. Gravel has never thrown himself fully into the race for the Democratic nomination and without that type of fire in the belly as pundits like to call it, one simply can not get elected President of the United States. If you can’t get past that hurdle it doesn’t matter what potential strengths a candidate may offer.


OK, that's my view. Like I said, most of this is subjective. I don't claim to be infallible or incapable of allowing personal biases to affect my view point, but that is my honest opinion. I tried to approach it the same way I would have if I were handicapping the electability of Republican candidates, none of whom I can stand.
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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Interesting
1. Biden - A consensus candidate, who wouldn't piss off many voter. Good speaker. Undeniably experienced. The biggest negative for him is 30 years of senate votes to distort, but I don't think Americans are going to fall for that as much as they have in the past. He has the most room to have a interesting VP like Sebelius, Schweitzer or Obama.
2. Edwards - I think his more conservative voting record may not be a bad thing. It will be harder for Repubs to distort. His weakness will be perceived experience. Again, that might not be a big deal in this election after 8 years of Bush's "experience." He will need to have a VP with percieved experience.
3. Obama & Clinton - Obama has the energy, the face of "change," but the "scary" muslim name. He has the youth vote, which is enreliable. How much of a Wilder Effect will he get? I don't know. He needs a VP with experience as well, and will probably go for a white male to be safe. Hillary has her haters but her fans balance it out. Clinton was the last president that most Americans like. She is the candidate most likely to get Naderized.
4. Richardson - Great experience. A genuine love of getting things done. Will appeal to voters interested in fiscal responsibility. May excite the hispanic voters. May scare the bigot voters. I have been disappointed by his speaking skills and presence, and that seems to matter to many voters.
5. Dodd - I don't see him generating much excitement, though he comes across as informed.
6. Kucinich - I don't see him generating much excitement outside of his small base of supporters.
7. Gravel - doesn't really want to be president anyway, as far as I can tell.
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justinrr1 Donating Member (213 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. couldnt agree more on Biden as top choice for electability
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Tejanocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Biden, Hillary, Richardson, and Gravel are my "pinch my nose and vote" candidates
Edited on Tue Nov-27-07 03:52 PM by Tejanocrat
Of those, only Richardson has any real electability.

Hillary is hugely polarizing -- we write off 49% of the vote with her nomination and struggle to win the remaining 51%.

Biden has said a million stupid things. He didn't get his reputation for being a blowhard for nothing. If Biden wasn't within the margin of error from zero in the polls, he would have been eviscerated for telling the Washington Post editorial board that Iowa schools perform better than Washington DC schools because "There's less than 1 percent of the population of Iowa that is African- American. There is probably less than 4 or 5 percent that is, are minorities. What is it in Washington? So look, it goes back to what you start off with, what you're dealing with." This has an unfamiliar echo of Biden bragging that his campaign would do well in the South because "My state was a slave state." Which reminds people that he said that Obama was "the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy." Which is still better than when he recently said "You cannot go into a Dunkin' Donuts or a 7-Eleven unless you have a slight Indian accent." If Biden had so much as a 1% chance of winning, this stuff would come out like an avalanche.

Gravel is a great guy, but he's just nuts. I wish he were my uncle who I could sit down to Thanksgiving dinner with instead of a candidate for my party's nomination for president.

With Richardson, I disagree with him on policy issues, but I think he'd be very electable.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Biden would live or die by his mouth
No question about it. He can be a very gifted speaker who also can make stupid off the cuff remarks. His mouth has mostly been on very good behavior during the debates so far.

I simply don't buy that we write off 49% of the vote with Hillary. Whatever her negative approval numbers may be now, they exist in abstraction. It is sort of the opposite of the positive ratings that generic Democratic candidates have gotten in the past which were higher than than any actual approval level given to a specific Democrat.

Should Hillary become the nominee, she will not be running against people's initial attitude toward her, she would be running against a flesh and blood Republican who will be saddled with getting out from underneath the rubble of George W. Bush's 8 years in office. There will be daily comparisons made between her and that Republican, and between Bill Clinton's Administration and George W. Bush's Administration. If she were running against a widely admired Republican like Colin Powell or John McCain used to be, Hillary might never get enough second looks to budge those negative numbers. But the only Republican candidate who now is somewhat "widely admired" is Rudy, but he won't hold up so well under scrutiny. Just start with his personal life which is a train wreck, and the fact that he truly is a war monger which many do not yet realize because he still carries the tag of being the "moderate" Republican because of prior stands on a couple of social issues.
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. The Republican nominee will have a particular dilemma
He will have to decide whether to disown Bush entirely and therefore
alienate the 26%, or embrace him and risk alienating the nebulous (and,
apparently dwindling) number of thinking republicans along with those
Democrats who, for whatever reason, can't bring themselves to vote for
the eventual Democratic nominee.

You have done a good job of articulating why I don't fear a Hillary nomination
as much as some--her nomination may not be blessing, but nor will it be (my
view only, here) the automatic ticket to catastrophe that some would have us believe.

I still believe the White House is ours to lose, and only a major blunder in the
campaign would bring that about. Indeed, it is the main reason why I remain so
frustratingly undecided as to my choice in the primary. My vote in November is
not in doubt, although if we manage to go Democratic statewide in Texas as soon
as next year, I will check to make sure the sun still rose in the East that day.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Long term there is real hope for Texas
In the very short term, um... So how's the weather been lately? lol
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. Electability wise, I'd say Obama, Clinton, Biden, Richardson, Kucinich, Dodd, Edwards, Gravel
in that order, even though Kucinich is the one who I'd put in the WH if it were up to me.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I would probably go with putting Dodd or Kucinich in the White House if it were up to me
...out of those actually running. One of them will probably get my vote in the New York State Primary since I suspect the race will already be over by then and I will free to just "send a message" with my vote.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Ranking Edwards and Dodd below Kucinich in electability is ludicrous in the extreme
Edited on Tue Nov-27-07 04:41 PM by JohnLocke
As is ranking Clinton above anyone except Kucinich and Gravel and maybe Richardson.
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. He didn't
You are confusing his stated personal choices with his estimate of their electability.
Tom made it clear that they were two separate lists.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Your wrong. The list I posted is my "electability" list. Kucinich is my #1 choice personally
Edited on Tue Nov-27-07 04:52 PM by mtnsnake
as I already stated in my post.

Maybe you happened to miss where I said "Electability wise". Afterall it is a little hard to see, considering it's the first two words in my subject line (snicker)

Time to send this to the GP. Good thread.
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. OK, now you're getting me confused
First off--is mtn snake Tom?

Second--the post I responded to said you placed Edwards below Dodd and Kucinich in electability,
which is not so: you rated Edwards 5, whereas you rated Dodd and Kucinich as 6 and 7 respectively.

I think the post I responded to confused your personal choice (Kucinich as #1) with your list of assessed electability (Kucinich as #7).

If I got THAT wrong, I give up, and don't DARE let me give you directions if we are ever in
a car together, and are lost! LOL
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. OK, I see where I went wrong
I thought the guy was referring to the OP, instead of another post.

Sorry about that. It's 11 PM here, and I've been up since 4:30 AM (still
work for a living, and all). As Gilda Radner's character said: Never mind!!

(saves me the pain of going back and deleting everything)
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Yeah, after I read the other post, I figured you inadvertently posted to me by mistake, lol
especially when I read how you thought I picked Edwards at #5. I was just going to try and clear it up when I saw your last post.

No problem, my friend, and if we're ever in a car and get lost, I'll be the first one to take the blame and pull over to ask someone for directions! :evilgrin:
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