Catholic Democrats

[sandnsea]

Should they all stop going to mass, appearing with priests and bishops, because the Church opposes abortion and gay rights?

That's the equivalent of this gospel singer, singers, however many there are. Saying that no Democrat should ever appear with any religious person of any denomination who has backwards views of gays.

Or who has backwards views of women and abortion, which upsets me greatly but which I have to overlook because religion is a mixed bag.

Why aren't any of you insisting every Democrat avoid the entire Catholic hierarchy until they embrace homosexuality?

Because this is a concocted controversy, that's why.

[cuke]

1. Are they running for president?

[sandnsea]

3. Biden, Dodd, Kucinich, and Richardson??

Yeah they are.

You think there are any Democrats who can get elected without appearing with the Catholic hierarchy somewhere along the line?

[cuke]

9. Those three RC's should not appear with homophobes

as should all of the non-RC candidates. The other millions of RC's who aren't running for president need not worry

[sandnsea]

12. Should they renounce their religion?

What about the rest of the candidates? Should they renounce Catholicism until all the clergy get right with gays?

[cuke]

15. Why should they?

Has anyone suggested that Obama renounce his religion?

[sandnsea]

16. Gospel singer are part of his religion

Just like priests and bishops are part of the Catholic religion. If Obama can never be with a religious person who has said something stupid about gays, why should candidates meeting or appearing with Catholic clergy be given a pass?

[cuke]

19. Please answer my question

Has Obama been asked to renounce his religion?

You're so big on equality here, but you don't mind applying a higher standard to every candidate but your own

[sandnsea]

21. The higher standard is only applied to Obama

Nobody has required any other candidate to do anything about the bigots in their religions.

[eridani]

25. Being Catholic hasn't stopped Kucinich from supporting full marriage equality n/t

[sandnsea]

28. Who has he appeared with?

Have you vetted every appearance? Are you sure he's never appeared with Catholic clergy or choir member who believes homosexuality is a sin? Did you ever even think to ask?

[eridani]

38. Never heard that he has appeared with any clergy

Someone asked him in 2003 whether he was a practicing Catholic. He replied that he practiced all religions.

[MADem]

34. Well, Kerry and Kennedy don't make the rounds of the Hierarchy.

They don't have to worry about their Senate seats.

I haven't seen any of the Presidential candidates running around with Bishop SoNSo or Cardinal Whosiwhatziz. The church doesn't have that kind of sway anymore. Too many Catholics nowadays are of the "Cafeteria" variety.

[Solon]

2. I would encourage them to do so, yes...

Bigotry is Bigotry, period, I don't care what type of window dressing is used to justify it.

[sandnsea]

4. Then give the country to Republicans

Because I can't think of a place in the country where Democrats can get elected without Catholics.

[Solon]

18. You said "Catholic hierarchy" not necessarily the parishioners...

Catholic parishioners are, generally speaking, more liberal than the hierarchy. But the actual hierarchy of the church is extremely conservative, much more so than the laity, remember Kerry(a Catholic) defied the hierarchy and I don't remember him facing any backlash from the laity from that. Most Catholics that I know don't even like the Pope, nor do they even like most of the Hierarchy. There are already problems with this rift between the two, there are several Churches that broke with Rome over many of these issues, in addition to ordaining women, and the Church is facing a funding crisis in many communities. Most Catholics aren't liking this "activist" stance that many Bishops are taking on issues that they feel the Church shouldn't be meddling in.

I believe it was a few months ago, Sheryl Crow was coming to my city(St. Louis) for a charity concert, and Archbishop Raymond Burke said that any Catholic that attended her concert was basically committing a sin, the end result was that she had HUGE crowds, and I would bet my bottom dollar at least half of them were Catholics. He ended up resigning from the board of Cardinal Glennon Children's hospital over this scandal. Let me also mentioned that he tried to sell off, illegally, one of the parishes around here and also had their board excommunicated when they balked. The reason for this was in order to pay damage judgments required by the courts to victims of his priests' sex crimes. Oh, and he was one of the Archbishops that said Kerry shouldn't receive the Eucharist until he stops supporting choice. He's not the most popular guy in my area.

[sandnsea]

22. Nobody even asks

If a candidate appeared with a homophobic choir member, nobody would know because nobody ever asks these sorts of questions of Catholics. It's a given that there may well be a homophobe in a choir or speaking in some fashion. Nobody says anything about Hillary's prayer meetings with homophobic Senators. I have no idea which Methodists are homophobes and which aren't. Nobody asks. Because nobody cares.

And yes, if Kerry had won the Catholic vote the way Kennedy did, he'd be in the White House. The garbage from the Church definitely hurt him in some parishes.

[Solon]

24. If Kerry associated himself with, let's say, a Christian Rock group...

regardless of denomination, that espoused views similar to McCloset, I can guarantee you that the GBLT community would raise a stink about it. The reason this became a scandal, of sorts, is because of the exposure of McCloset, not just his views, but the fact that he can reach millions of people, and was open about his views as well. Also, just a note, Obama and McCloset are NOT members of the same denominations, Obama is member of the UCC, a church that performs same-sex marriages, for crying out loud! Its not like he would be attacking the views of someone who is a member of his own denomination.

That's the problem, these are people in the PUBLIC spotlight, if a Methodist is a homophobe, but doesn't publish it, we would simply not be aware of it. McCloset is completely different, not even comparable, he published a book about his homophobia, so we know his views, and he's also in the public spotlight, criticism of him is fair game. This is what upsets me the most, the excuses and attacks, when I posted the views of Mary Mary, a Gospel Duet on Obama's tour, who compared Homosexuality to Murderers and Prostitution, I said they were homophobic assholes, and what was the response from some Obama supporters here on this board? That I was attacking religion. What a bunch of stupid bullshit.

[sandnsea]

26. I'm speaking Catholics, specifically

Because they are a traditional Democratic block that candidates regularly appeal to and appear with. If a Catholic choir appeared at a religious event, nobody would even consider the religious views because we already know and accept the different views of the Church. Are you certain every single nun who phone banked for Kerry was pro-choice and pro-gay? I have no idea.

The same with the rest of the mainstream religions, we just accept that at religious events someone is likely to have conservative social views.

Like Mary Mary, who apparently have a large gay fan base.

http://www.vibe.com/news/news_headlines/2007/03/mary_mary_interview/

[Solon]

29. The problem is that you are generalizing unfairly...

If I have a guy who approached me on the street and said: "Hi, I'm Mike and I'm Catholic", does that mean he's a anti-choice homophobe? No, of course not, now if he then said: "I hate Fags and we must protect unborn children!", THAT is what makes him a homophobe and anti-choice. Just because someone is a member of any specific religion or denomination, doesn't mean they agree with their church on every single position, even theological ones. This is excluding certain Churches like the Phelps clan, but they are more like a family cult than any mainstream denomination.

The problem is that we aren't talking about homophobia itself, but the expression of it. Mary Mary made a homophobic statement, something I'm sure their gay fan base wasn't aware of beforehand. It would be the expression of such bigoted beliefs that should be derided, not put front and center. Think of open racism, except for a few extreme examples, generally open racism isn't nearly as tolerated in mainstream society as it once was. Mostly the groups that espoused these views have been kicked to the corners, the fringes, of society. Does this mean racism has gone away, no, not entirely, but their has still been progress.

We are at a point where Homophobia is about where Racism was in let's say the late 1960s or so. If, in 1967, that genetics scientist, whatever his name was, who stated recently that Blacks are less intelligent than whites, would have been able to keep his job, and generally, to John Q. Public, his views would have been considered "mainstream". But look what actually happened, because its 2007 instead, he lost his job, has been derided, and actually faced consequences for his view, that's progress.

I would hope, in 40 years, if a person like McClurkin stated that Homosexuality was a curse, they would lose their job, become derided, and shunned from our society. People like him, and like Mary Mary shouldn't have their views be accepted in our culture, that type of intolerance doesn't belong, those views are wrong, and any excuses made in their defense is simply unacceptable.

[sandnsea]

30. Nobody Ever Asked

Because it's presumed that there will be pro-life and homophobes amongst Catholic supporters.

It's sufficient for our Democratic candidates to condemn those beliefs, without the requirement that they condemn individuals. It should be no different for Obama.

I am not generalizing unfairly. I'm drawing a very clear parallel.

[Solon]

31. They should when its appropriate...

Let's give an example, let's say we have Candidate A, and they received the support of a Pastor, and praised the Pastor for some community work, or used them in campaign rallies, whatever. Let's say a story broke that the Pastor in question had, years ago, or yesterday, wrote a sermon denouncing Blacks as carrying the mark of Cain, and that they are not welcome in Heaven. Now, what would be the proper response from Candidate A?

[sandnsea]

32. Like Byrd?

Condemn the mistaken beliefs and fight for change, as was done for decades. FDR didn't integrate anything. It took time. Obama is condemning these homophobic beliefs, repeatedly, to black religious audiences. Nobody cared anything about that either. This is just an opportunity to bash.

[Solon]

33. Has he actually condemned them as being wrong, or just disagreed with them?

I could say this about pretty much the entire top tier, who are, at best, tolerant of gay people, but the fact of the matter is that to disagree with someone means that you at least think they have a valid point of view. This gives such views legitimacy that they shouldn't have, that's just as wrong.

[sandnsea]

35. How can you not know?

How can you attack this man without knowing what he is saying on these issues? That is just outrageous. He's the one that went to Kenya and took an AIDS test to make the point clear for chrissake.

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2169

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/204017.aspx

[Solon]

37. The first link is progress, he mentioned homophobia...

mostly as it relates to how HIV/AIDS is treated in the African-American community, which is extremely important, however, I don't see a condemnation of the attitudes, just that they must be confronted, which is progress, I grant you that. The second link, more or less, baffles me, I don't see how it relates to the issue of this subthread.

[IndianaJones]

5. how is it concocted when large numbers of people are not treated as human beings? nt.

[sandnsea]

6. ask your candidate

why she has weekly prayer meetings with people who support writing laws to not treat people as human beings.

[IndianaJones]

7. good example. I don't think that is concocted. It is extremely objectionable.

How is the Obama situation concocted?

[cuke]

8. Actually, that is concocted

Did you know that EVERY Dem congressmember belongs to a group that includes racists, homophobes, and war criminals?

It's called Congress

[sandnsea]

10. So where's the outrage???

:shrug:

[IndianaJones]

11. I don't like it. I can't speak for other people. That doesn't lessen the Obama issue. nt.

[sandnsea]

13. Why aren't you speaking out on Hillary's homophobe group? n/t

[IndianaJones]

14. where is the thread? nt.

[cuke]

I'll explain

There is a group in the Senate that meets every Wednesday to pray and witness. Some of the members of that group are right-wing extremists of the most vile kind. These vile repukes belong to a super-secretive dominionist cult-like group (they want a theocracy) called The Fellowship.

Some DUers have engaged in guilt by association, combined with a lie, that Hillary is a member of The Fellowship

[sandnsea]

17. Exactly. There isn't one. Because nobody cares.

Because this is a concocted controversy to destroy Obama.

[calimary]

20. Perhaps. That's one reason that drove me away.

I know quite a few Catholics who don't go to Mass regularly anymore, on principle. Mainly, though, it's because of the molestation scandal. The ONGOING molestation scandal. For others, it's the choice issue, and still more are deeply conflicted about how women are still treated as second-class citizens. With the kinds of shortages of priests they lament all the time, you'd think they'd look to the HUGE labor pool available to take up the slack - a labor pool locked out merely because of the lack of a "y" chromosome.

They may not miss us, but they ARE missing the money we used to put into the collection plate, faithfully, every Sunday. Hey, so be it. I find it most regrettable. It's left me feeling really conflicted. I've been a Catholic more or less from birth. I'm 54 now. And now, various factions of my religion don't seem to want me anymore. They'll take my money anytime. But they don't seem to want me. Which is sad. Jesus never turned anybody away...

[sandnsea]

23. I don't either

But that's got nothing to do with Presidential candidates. Democrats can't win without the Catholic vote, even the homophobic ones. Nobody will ever rant at a Democratic candidate for trying to gain the Catholic vote.

[OHdem10]

27. Do we really want to be like the Fundies???

Guilt by association??? Shunning is the favorite tool of the Right.

I think we need to take a deep breath. Obama's campaign is built
on Turn the Page. (Stop the continuous fighting) and Hope(Implying
he wants all American's to get along. He continuously speaks of
bringing us all together.

Catholics and I am one, make up a lrge part of this country. It is
unreasonable IMO to think we are going to have our candidate shun
the Church.

Would it not be helpful if we agree on those things we can and
be big enough to accept the fact we will not all agree on everything.

[cboy4]

36. Boy.....talking about grasping for