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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:20 PM
Original message
Old Clinton, Meet New Clinton -- Same as He Ever Was?
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 02:53 PM by Totally Committed
The following is a transcript of testimony that was given by Heather Boushey of the Economic Policy Institute before the Committee on Education and the Workforce of the U.S. House of Representitives on September 20, 2001 on the effects of Bill Clinton's "Welfare Reform Act". HRC has said NAFTA needs to be "revisited", but has said no such thing about this piece of Clinton Legislation:

The effects of the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act on working families



by Heather Boushey of the Economic Policy Institute:


Chairman Buck McKeon and Members of the Committee,


My name is Heather Boushey. I am an Economist at the Economic Policy Institute in Washington, D.C. It is a great privilege to be here today to discuss the effects of the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act on working families.


There appear to be many positive developments since the passage of the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act in August of 1996. Welfare caseloads have dropped substantially, from 5.5% of the total U.S. population in 1994 to 2.1% in June 2000. Many former welfare recipients have entered the workforce, and poverty has fallen among children overall from 1993 to 1999.


But these developments shroud many disturbing realities for millions of current and former welfare recipients. Most former welfare recipients are not working full-time or full-year. Most are earning between $6.00 and $8.00 per hour (Acs and Loprest 2001; Administration for Children and Families and Office of Planning Research and Evaluation 2000; Brauner and Loprest 1999; Freedman et al. 2000; Loprest 1999; Loprest 2001; Parrott 1998), a wage insufficient to enable them to provide for their families. And although the poverty rate has declined overall, it has increased among working families, particularly those headed by single mothers. For those families that were already poor, poverty in the last several years has deepened (Primus and Greenstein 2000).


In order to review all of the evidence available to us, we must first be clear about the stated goals of welfare reform and how we measure its success. Caseload reduction is not an adequate measure of success, nor is the proportion of former welfare recipients who are employed "at any time" after leaving welfare. We must look behind these numbers to see if how families fare after leaving welfare.


Welfare families are, by definition, mostly headed by single mothers. The criterion for evaluating welfare reform's success should be whether these mothers are able to find and maintain stable employment that pays enough for them to achieve a safe and decent standard of living for their families.


The strong economy caused caseload to fall, but not evenly


Welfare caseloads fell over the second half of the 1990s, but this was due in large part to the strong economy. Further, caseloads did not fall uniformly: big cities are now left with a larger share of welfare recipients.


The PRWORA was implemented during the longest boom in post-war history. Researchers have found that 40 to 80% of the fall in caseloads may be attributable to the boom, rather than the policy reforms. (See Council of Economic Advisors (1998); Wallace and Blank (1998); Ziliak, et al (1997) for a thorough review of this literature.) This has important implications for our thinking about TANF reauthorization as the US economy slides into recession. Strong labor demand played an important role in creating jobs for welfare recipients to move into; weakened labor demand in the future may make it more difficult for former welfare recipients to find or maintain employment.


Welfare caseloads are now increasingly concentrated in America's cities (Brookings Institution 1999). As of 1999, nearly 60% of all welfare cases were in 89 large urban counties that accounted for only 33% of the U.S. population. This is an increase of 10 percentage points since 1994. As a result, ten urban counties now account for roughly one-third of all U.S. welfare cases (Katz and Allen 2001).


The drop in welfare caseloads is also not uniform across states. Between 1993 and 1999, caseloads in Oklahoma, Florida, Colorado, West Virginia, Mississippi, Wisconsin, Idaho, and Wyoming fell by 70% or more. However, caseloads in New Mexico, Hawaii, Rhode Island, New York, Nebraska, Alaska, Vermont, California, and the District of Columbia fell by less than 40%, California and New York, which accounted for 17% and 9% of the nation's caseloads, respectively, in 1993, accounted for 22% and 12% of caseloads in 1999 (Administration for Children and Families and Office of Planning Research and Evaluation 2000).


The block grant structure implemented as a part of PRWORA may suit some states and communities better than it does others. As the distribution of welfare recipients becomes more concentrated, we must alter our allocation of funds accordingly.


Many (but not all) former welfare recipients are now working but few are escaping poverty


Across the country, between 40% and 70% of all former welfare recipients are working. Work has increased among welfare recipients and welfare leavers. In fiscal year 1994, only 8% of TANF adults were employed while receiving assistance. In fiscal year 1999, however, 28% were employed (Strawn, Greenberg, and Savner 2001). This is consistent with the fact that labor force participation has increased among single mothers (Blank and Schmidt 2000). Labor force participation increased by 9.6 percentage points among single mothers between 1989 and 2000, but increased much more slowly among married women. Further, women with a high-school degree increased their labor force participation by 6% over this period. Labor force participation remained relatively constant for higher-skilled women.


A single parent with two children needs about $30,000 to afford the basic necessities of life (Boushey et al. 2001). This is more than double the federal poverty line. Among former welfare recipients, however, mean earnings are only between $10,000 and $14,000 annually. This is often lower than the poverty line of $13,133 for a family of three of in 1998 (Strawn, Greenberg, and Savner 2001) (when most of these surveys tabulated their data) and well below the amount a family needs to purchase adequate housing, food, health care, child care, and other basic necessities.


Most of the research on what has happened to welfare leavers looks at leavers during the late 1990s. A few examples shows the limited range of results:


:graybox: In New York City, a sample of 569 cases from 6,092 cases closed in November of 1997 yielded 126 cases with valid phone numbers. Of those 126 surveyed, 58% reported that they were supporting their families mainly through work. The median wage among respondents was $7.50 per hour. Thirty-seven percent of respondents had incomes above the poverty line.


:graybox: In Maryland, a study using administrative data from government programs on welfare, child support, and unemployment insurance, found that 51% of former welfare recipients had positive earnings in the quarter after leaving welfare. Average wages for those working were $2,384 in the first quarter after leaving welfare and $2,439 in the second quarter, which annualizes to over $9,500, leaving the average family far below the poverty line.


:graybox: In South Carolina, a study utilizing phone interviews and home visits for a randomly selected group of closed cases found that 65% were employed at the time of interview, earning an average hourly wage of $6.


:graybox: In Washington state, a survey of those leaving TANF between April and August 1998 found that 71% of former recipients were employed with hourly wages averaging $8. Workers worked an average of 36 hours per week.


As former welfare women enter the labor market, the implicit hope of the PRWORA is that they will eventually climb the job ladder. From prior research, we know that wage profiles for less-educated workers remain stagnant, even if earnings profiles slope upward. Most studies find that wages increase between 1% and 2.6% per year for low-skilled workers (Burtless 1995; Card, Michalopoulos, and Robins 1999; Moffitt and Rangarajan 1989)2. Less-educated workers experience little wage growth while working for the same employer and only limited gains -- far less meaningful than for more-educated workers -- when moving to a new employer (Connolly and Gottschalk 2000). Substantial proportions of workers actually experience real declines in wages while working for the same employer or after moving to a new employer (Gottschalk 2000).


Poverty and hardships have not been reduced among the kinds of families most affected by welfare reform


Recent data show that poverty has declined overall, although it has deepened for those who remain poor and has increased among "working families." Most former welfare recipients do not earn wages that lift them above the poverty line: only 29% of those with earnings who had been on welfare in the previous year had wages above the official poverty line in 1998 (Sherman et al. 1998).


Although poverty was lower among almost every demographic group in 1999, it increased among single, working mothers. Before counting the benefits of government safety net programs, the poverty rate for people in working single-mother families fell from 35.5% in 1995 to 33.5% in 1999 (the latest year for which data is currently available). However, after counting government benefits and taxes, the poverty rate among people in working single-mother families was 19.4% in 1999, virtually the same as in 1995. The authors of a recent report on poverty conclude:


… after 1995, declines in the effectiveness of the safety net in reducing poverty among families headed by working single mothers offset the effect of the improving economy, halting the reduction of the poverty rate for these families and pushing those who remained poor deeper into poverty (Porter and Dupree 2001).


Further, people in families headed by working single mothers who were poor in 1999 are deeper in poverty than such families were in 1995. This is yet another piece of evidence indicating that former welfare mothers are having difficulties finding employment that helps them to escape poverty.


Many former welfare families are as likely to experience hardships after leaving welfare. Over one-third of families on welfare went without housing, food, or necessary medical care, compared to 29.8% of families who left welfare over a year ago. Families with a full-time worker were only slightly less likely to experience one or more of these hardships compared to current welfare families. Nearly one-quarter% of families who left welfare more than a year ago and had a full-time worker went without housing, food, or necessary medical care, while 29.9% of those in families that left welfare more recently did so (Boushey and Gundersen 2001).


Single parents should be able to adequately support their families


Much of the PRWORA explicitly addressed the high rates of single parenthood among poor families. Since the passage of this legislation, teen pregnancy rates have fallen. However, research cannot substantiate that this was due to changes in welfare policy, rather than other causes. What we do know is that 90% of former welfare recipients are mothers, and that the kinds of employment and earnings they can garner in the labor market will dictate our success as helping them transition from welfare-to-work.


During the 1980s, the gender wage gap narrowed substantially. The gap closed because, while real wages for both women and men fell, they fell more for men. As the economy heated up during the 1990s, however, the gender wage gap stopped narrowing and began stagnating. Right now, the gender wage ratio (that is, women's wages as a percentage of men's) among full-time workers is 81%. The ratio is even lower for parents: mothers' earnings amount to less than two-thirds of fathers' earnings.


This gender wage gap is not due to differences in the skills and attributes that women and men bring to the labor market. Among high-school educated, full-time workers, the gender wage gap is .79, the same as among college-educated full-time workers. Further, women are now more likely than men to attend and graduate from college. Pay inequality is due to something more than the attributes that women and men bring to the labor market. The pay gap remains, however, partly because of the high degree of segregation of women and men into different types of jobs.


Eliminating the gender pay gap would go a long way to helping families make ends meet. If single working mothers earned as much as comparably skilled men, their family incomes would increase by nearly 17%, and their poverty rates would be cut in half, from 25.3% to 12.6%.


Work supports


Much has been made of the increased attention to work supports in the PRWORA and in other areas related to welfare reform. The major areas of reform have been child care, health care, the EITC, food stamps, and housing.


The good news is that Congress has allocated more money to childcare programs. The total federal dollars available for child care have nearly doubled since the early 1990s; states may now use TANF monies for childcare expenditures. However, many problems remain. Only 12% of eligible families receive assistance through the Child Care and Development Fund (Layzer and Collins 2001; U.S. Department of Human Services 1999). Federal and state programs reach very few families with child care needs. Tax credits are too low to help families with child care costs. Head Start serves less than half of eligible children (Blank, Schulman, and Ewen 1999). Furthermore, child care quality is inadequate due to low pay for child care workers. Despite increased federal funding on child care over the past decade, wages for child care workers stagnated, resulting in continued problems with recruiting and retraining qualified teachers (Whitebrook, Howes, and Phillips 1998).


Many families who have moved from welfare-to-work cannot afford health care. If a working-poor family is not offered employer-based health care or cannot afford the plan offered, in most cases it cannot rely on governmental assistance for health coverage. In the typical state, a parent in a family of three earning over $7,992 (59% of the poverty guideline) is not eligible for Medicaid coverage (Guyer and Mann 1999). According to our family budget research, if a two-parent, two-child family tried to purchase a non-group health insurance plan, it would cost an average of $350 a month. Former welfare recipients-even those with a full-time worker in their family-have high rates of health-related hardships. They experience levels of health hardships similar to those of welfare families, and higher than those of poor families overall (Boushey and Gundersen 2001). Although the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) has been expanded, more than 6 million children are eligible, but are not enrolled in either CHIP or Medicaid.


The welfare reform legislation did not recognize the large role of housing in the budgets of poor families. A recent report found that few of the states studied either had a separate housing allowance provided with connection to TANF or a specific provision for housing costs in the TANF benefit (Wright, Ellen, and Schill 2001). The report concludes that, "as a rule, the states reviewed in this study made no special provision for how sanctions imposed on clients for noncompliance with a TANF eligibility requirement would affect any payments made through TANF for housing costs" (Wright, Ellen, and Schill 2001, p. 46). Families are experiencing high rates of housing hardships as a result: among parents who recently left welfare, 28% report being unable to pay housing or utility bills.

Conclusion


:graybox: There is some good news, but for millions of current and former welfare recipients, economic well-being has not improved.


:graybox: Falling caseloads are linked to the good economy. This progress will soon reverse course.


:graybox: Even during the latter years of the boom, many families were unable to maintain stable, full-time employment.


:graybox: Wages are too low to enable families to escape poverty and avoid material hardships.


:graybox: Contractions of the safety net lead to higher poverty among people in working single mother families.


:graybox: We have made progress on implementing work supports, but we have very far to go.


:graybox: It's unclear how possible increases in caseloads as the economy contracts will affect work support programs


http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_viewpoints_tanf_testimony


References

Acs, Gregory, and Pamela Loprest. 2001. Initial Synthesis Report of the Findings from ASPE's "Leavers" Grants. Washington, DC: The Urban Institute.


Administration for Children and Families, and Office of Planning Research and Evaluation. 2000. Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) Program: Third Annual Report to Congress. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.


Blank, Rebecca, and Lucie Schmidt. 2000. "Work and Wages". Paper presented at The New World of Welfare: Shaping a Post-TANF Agenda for Policy, Washington, DC, December.


Boushey, Heather, and Bethney Gundersen. 2001. Just Barely Making It: Hardships Experienced after Welfare. Washington, DC: Economic Policy Institute.


Boushey, Heather, Bethney Gundersen, Chauna Brocht, and Jared Bernstein. 2001. Hardships in America: The Real Story of Working Families. Washington, DC: Economic Policy Institute.


Brauner, Sarah, and Pamela Loprest. 1999. Where Are They Now? What States' Studies of People Who Left Welfare Tell Us. Washington, DC: The Urban Institute.


Brookings Institution. 1999. The State of Caseloads in America's Cities: 1999. Washington, DC: Brookings Institution, Center on Urban and Metropolitan Policy.


Connolly, Helen, and Peter Gottschalk. 2000. "Returns to Tenure and Experience Revisited: Do Less Educated Workers Gain Less from Work Experience?"


Council of Economic Advisors. 1998. Technical Reports: Explaining the Decline in Welfare Receipt, 1993-1996. Washington, DC: Council of Economic Advisors.


Freedman, Stephen, Daniel Friedlander, Gayle Hamilton, JoAnn Rock, Marisa Mitchell, Jodi Nudelman, Amanda Schweder, and Laura Storto. 2000. Evaluating Alternative Welfare-to-Work Approaches: Two-Year Impacts for Eleven Programs. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and U.S. Department of Education.


Gladden, Tricia, and Christopher Taber. 2000. "Wage Progression Among Less Skilled Workers." In Finding Jobs: Work and Welfare Reform, edited by D. Card and R. Blank.


Gottschalk, Peter. 2000. "Wage Mobility Within and Between Jobs: How Prevalent is Downward Mobility?". Paper presented at Low-Wage Employment, Earnings Mobility, and the Eurpoean-American Employment Gap, University of Aberdeen, November 17-18.


Katz, Bruce, and Katherine Allen. 2001. Cities Matter Shifting the Focus of Welfare Reform. The Brookings Review, Vol. 19, No. 3, pp. 30-3.


Loprest, Pamela. 1999. How Families that Left Welfare are Doing: A National Picture. Washington, DC: Urban Institute. http://newfederalism.urban.org/html/series_b/anf_b1.html


Loprest, Pamela. 2001. How Are Families that Left Welfare Doing? A Comparison of Early and Recent Welfare Leavers. Vol. Series B. Washington, DC: The Urban Institute.


Parrott, Sharon. 1998. Welfare Recipients Who Find Jobs: What Do We Know About Employment and Earnings? Washington, DC: Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.


Porter, Kathryn H., and Allen Dupree. 2001. Poverty Trends for Families Headed by Working Single Mothers: 1993 to 1999. Washington, DC: Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.


Primus, Wendell, and Robert Greenstein. 2000. Analysis of Census Bureau's Income and Poverty Report for 1999. Washington, DC: Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. < http://www.cbpp.org/9-26-00pov.htm>


Sherman, Arloc, Cheryl Amey, Barbara Duffield, Nancy Ebb, and Deborah Weinstein. 1998. Welfare to What: Early Finding on Family Hardship and Well-Being. Washington, DC: Children's Defense Fund.


Strawn, Julie, Mark Greenberg, and Steve Savner. 2001. Improving Employment Outcomes Under TANF. Washington, DC: Center for Law and Social Policy.


Wallace, Geoffrey, and Rebecca Blank. 1998. "What Goes Up Must Come Down? Explaining Recent Changes in Public Assistance Caseloads". Paper presented at Welfare Reform and Macroeconomy, Washington, DC, November 19-20.


Wright, David J., Ingrid Gould Ellen, and Michael H. Schill. 2001. Community Development Corporations and Welfare Reform: Linkages, Roles, and Impacts. Albany, NY: Rockefeller Institute Press.


Ziliak, James, David Figlio, Elizabeth Davis, and Laura Connolly. 1997. "Accounting for the Decline in AFDC Caseloads: Welfare Reform or Economic Growth?", 1151-97 1151-97. Madison, WI.

How We Ended Welfare, Together
By BILL CLINTON
Published: August 22, 2006
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/opinion/22clinton.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin


Endnotes

1 These data are available at: < http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/stats/6097rf.htm>.

2 The exception is Gladden and Taber (2000) who find that once labor market experience is taken into account appropriately, there are no large differences in earnings growth between low-skilled and medium-skilled workers, despite differences in wage levels.

3 These data are available at: < http://www.childrensdefense.org/hs_genhlth_faqs.htm>.

4 These data are available at: < http://www.childrensdefense.org/fair-start-welfaretowhat_2000.htm>.

Heather Boushey is an economist at the Economic Policy Institute.



TC
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Not to mention that most outsourced training and job placement programs are scams.
They provide jobs for their employees. Period.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Who provides jobs for their employees?
Did you even read the OP?

TC



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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. Oh gee Oh Me Oh my
go after Bill since you are tired of bashing Hillary, maybe you can convince people that way. Shame and shame.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. This has so many links and references and documentations, how can you call it "Bashing"?
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 02:45 PM by Totally Committed
I think we need to agree on the terms "bashing" and "trashing" here at Du. They are slung willy-nilly by people too lazy to write a cohesive argument, or make a cogent statement about the OP.

This is not "bashing" Bill Clinton. It is the transcript of testimony before a House Committee about the destructive nature of his "Welfare Reform" on the poor. He signed the bill. People suffered. (See the transcript) How is that "bashing"?

This was an invitation to the Clintonistas to make a case for how she will or will not change this "reform" if nominated and elected.

What the hell is the matter with this place?

Read it. Respond to it. But, if you are just blowing farts in the wind, spare me.

TC


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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. It's six years old, and about Bill - your intent is to bash Hillary
Hate her with all your being if that's the only happiness you have in life, but at least be honest with yourself.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. has the statute of limitations run out on the Bush's as well...
so this article is 6 years old - what a poor argument! - those policies are still affecting many people in negative ways and both parties don't seem to be too concerned about the working poor - just the nonworking rich. Should we just discuss things that are more recent? what is the cut off date you would suggest?
Is it okay to talk about bush senior and the things he has done while in public office (and his cia stint) that still affect us all today?
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
44. They're really upset because poor folk like you and me haven't gone off and died quietly.
Instead, we continue to speak the truth of the policies which are literally killing people.

Then they wonder why so many have given up and killed themselves.

The lack of compassion is truly astonishing.
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. You speak the truth, and they just can not.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Ayup.
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 04:16 PM by MethuenProgressive
:kick:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
45. So, what is your truth? That poor people don't matter?
That suffering and death is just a big yawn?

Is that your truth?
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
63. Yes..yes..yes pain, suffering and death is awesome.
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 06:59 PM by durrrty libby
Anything else?



Apparently you need this :sarcasm:


:scared:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Thanks for being honest.
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Anytime...
:sarcasm: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
42. Are you willing to be honest?????
Well, are you?
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. What the hell is the matter?? The liberal concern for poverty is about the same as the RW concern
for poverty.

That's what's the matter.

Yet, there will be all sorts of blaming of poor folk that they didn't vote for Dems in large enough numbers to suit the Clintonistas.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. watch the spin and the whining when I post my response thread
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
41. Yes, concern for poor folk is nothing but whining.
My, such big-heartedness.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
93. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. Yes, loyalty to Bill and Hill is all that matters. Talk about shame.
Your sneers for poor people is disgraceful.
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Nutmegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. Cool sig pic!
Where did ya get it???

R&K!
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I got it from Bucky.
I don't think anyone would mind if you stole it from me. ;)

TC


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Nutmegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Hehehe
I just stole it and uploaded it to my ImageShack account.

Thanks! :hi:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. Two better people to ask would be...
Barack Obama, who speaks highly of that Welfare reform act, and Al Gore, who pushed hard for it. At the time, Hillary was only first lady and had no say in policy... or did she? :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #91
97. why not when they played a major hand in it?
Is living in your mom's basement embarassing?
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #97
115. Obama played a major hand in it?
On what planet do you get these "facts"?

Projecting much? I have my own house. Thanks for the ignorance, though.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. Al Gore did. Obama supported(s) is.
You have your own house? Is it a plastic one behind your mom's?
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. From An Empirical Standpoint I Don't Think Telling Folks The Nineties Was A Shitty Era Will Have
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 02:49 PM by DemocratSinceBirth
Much Resonance.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. So, "Let them eat cake"?
The poor are not faring well. Should this "Reform" be revisited, and will it be by HRC?

That's all I'm asking.

TC

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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Anybody That Can't Provide For Themselves Should Be Provided For
That's part of the covenant in a just society...
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
48. And what we're saying is, That Isn't Happening!
We are suffering and dying.

The "covenant" you're speaking of was not a part of Bill's just society.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
47. We should just quietly kill ourselves, so as not to be "inconvenient"
to the Dems.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
46. No, because poor people are invisible.
And, obviously from the responses here, invisible to Dems.

Yet, you want our votes????????????
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. See Post 12
That was posted three hours prior to your query..
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. I did. Please read my reply to it.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. Raking up Old Muck to smear Hillary - from *September 20, 2001*
Jesus, wasn't it your turn to post the HILLARY MICROWAVES KITTENS!!!1!! thread?
:eyes:
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. If this thread is "bashing" because of its age... why wasn't Hillary "bashing" Bill when she said
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 03:01 PM by Totally Committed
"NAFTA needs to be revisited"? It's the same thing. Same timeperiod.

All I'm saying is "Welfare Reform needs to be revisited, too" -- Get over it.

TC


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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. "Get over it." You should take your own advice
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
14. kick
for the afternoon crowd

TC
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
17. kick for comparison
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. Kick
TC
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. kick - to highlight hypocrisy and muckracking anti-Clinton smear tactics
:kick:
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. how is this thread a 'smear tactic'?
do you mean this shouldn't be brought up because bill's welfare reform policy is generally a FAILURE and this should not be connected to Hillary at all?

or... do you mean this shouldn't be brought up because bill's welfare reform policy is generally a SUCCESS and this should not be connected to Hillary at all?

I read some of the failure points in the OP, waiting for the success stories on this issue please. Looking forward to some substance instead of that 'sNear tactic'.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. It's six years old, about Bill, and meant to smear Hillary. Hence: Smear Tactic.
The intent is clear, to objective readers.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. so Hillary should be ashamed of bill's welfare reform
as bringing it up smears him?

still don't know what you mean - guess I'm just too 'looney' to get it.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. If you're pre-disposed to approve of these tactics, you 'dnever admit it.
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 04:33 PM by MethuenProgressive
But at least, to your own self, be honest.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I fully admit I do not approve of the tactics behind the Welfare Reform.
and I do approve about discussing it in the hopes that it Can be improved upon in an honest and open dialogue. While some take this as an insult or smear toward the Hillary campaign - please consider how insulting it is to the so many people living in miserable poverty and being ignored.
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. The bile and venom foams from the orifices of the hate mongers
Give em a kick
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I've noticed that too...
here's a handi-wipe...
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. How lazy ......Wipe your own orifices.I'm not interested
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. yes, yes, I understand you - anything but talk about Welfare Reform.
I'll be waiting for discussion a little more serious than yours on this topic. thanks and bye.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. The thing is... Hillary herself brought up a re-look at NAFTA...
All I'm asking is why not WElfare Reform, too?

How is that a smear tactic?

TC


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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. cripes if I know. Trying to figure that one out too.
I'm supposing it may mean that if any past clinton policy was anything less than stellar, it is 'smearing' Hillary by bringing it up (just forget about all them poor folks, they can wait until we get this smearing the crowned ones sorted out). that's what my abacas is telling me by the input.... still not adding up tho.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Oh, come on
A post could have been made: where do the candidates stand on welfare reform?

This was an indictment based on association.

As if answering a question about NAFTA means she is personally brining up the Clinton admin, NAFTA is a huge current issue all the candidates are forced to address.

Hillary Clinton basically supports welfare reform. A simple Google could have told you that.

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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. but is welfare reform supporting the poor!?
That Is The Question. and Google can't really answer that one for me.
and will (or has she) Hillary address this Very Important Issue and do something about it? I don't see how this is a BAD question.

as to the OPs intent, I have no idea as I can't read minds. but i can read the words that were posted and I know that the reform hurt many many people. Who will stop that hurt or at least make it less hurtful. Is Hillary up to this and what has she said about it?
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. As a question for all of them, it is a good one
However, I doubt any of the frontrunners are going to give you a satisfactory answer.

Other than admitting that it had problems, Hillary thinks the positives outweigh the negatives other than Bush cutting health care and education aspects from it. Obama is also supportive of the whole idea.

I don't know about the others, frankly.

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
71. I would be interested
in your opinion on it if you feel like it.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #71
111. I disagreed with it
I thought chronic welfare use needed reform, but this wound up hurting people and was used to play to the "see we don't like welfare either" audience. The fact is, most welfare is used by people temporarily as the last resort. It failed to even address the main issue: poverty. Which was where most kicked off the rolls wound up.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #111
114. I had a dejavu
when I read your reply, I think we have discussed this before. I could easily agree that more should have been done to make sure people on assistance or going to work to get off assistance should not have stayed in poverty. Some assistance huh? On the other hand I still don't fault Clinton for trying to address it.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #38
54. I say, no it's not.
So it would be nice to know the person elected has helping the poor as a priority, wouldn't it?

TC


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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
104. .
:yourock:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
52. Yes, you are in good company with all that bile and venom.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #29
98. Well, if anyone would be an expert on orifices, it's you.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
37. Why is it, when the statement "case loads have dropped", the first questions liberals ask *isn't*
"how many of those people died"? or the equivalent??

Liberals pride themselves on seeing through the the smoke screens on so much, yet when it comes to poverty issues, so many don't seem to get that what we see IS NOT what we're getting!

Clinton cared so little about poor people, that there was NO tracking what happened to those people who were dropped. How many died? I know from one video about one small group that there were 3 deaths as a direct result of his policy. Yet, we don't seem to want to talk about that.

Why is that? Is it that Clinton is such a god that we don't want to know how he harmed people with this damned policy?

Is it that it may reflect badly on his wife?

WHY???

Why are these deaths of no consequence?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
51. Clearly, Welfare needed reform - 5.5% were on Welfare in 1994
Wow. Thats a staggering number. It takes leadership to address a problem like that. I salute President Clinton for his effort.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. You salute the sacrifice of poor people for political advantage????
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. There are days when I can't believe what I read here.
Unbelieveable, isn't it?

TC

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. I thank you so very much for the support you are giving to poor people here!
REally, I have just about come to the end of my life because of poverty, and these people give me the impression they would just dance on my grave. I can't even tell you the hopelessness that they have caused in me and many others.

There are so few people like you who will buck the trend and take on this hatefulness, and I want you to know that it is noticed, and appreciated.

:pals:
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #57
76. Thanks, I hear ya!
If even one person learns something from this thread, we are ahead of the game.

Poverty SHOULD NOT be a value of the Democratic Party. :pals:

We just have to keep slugging away.

TC

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #57
94. I'm with you too, bobbolink
This "Bill Clinton could do no wrong" routine gets old. I feel sorry for anyone who seems to think that Clinton was as good as it gets.

Yeah, Bill was better than Bush. That's not saying much.

His eagerness to appease the Republicans was often greater than his interest in the real welfare of the American people.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #94
99. "His eagerness to appease the Republicans was often greater than his interest
in the real welfare of the American people."

Asolutely true.


TC




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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. Absolutely. Yet, when I say that poor people were sacrificed for political expediency,
I get bashed.

It's gets so old, and it also hurts.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #94
102. "Yeah, Bill was better than Bush. That's not saying much. "
I remember in '04 it being popular to say "I'd vote for a ham sandwich over *."

(And, no, Bill loyalists, I'm not comparing him to a ham sandwich.)

I have no need to demonize Bill, but I sure get sick of him being lionized for hurting poor people!

Thanks for your words.... it really does hurt to be told over and over on DU that my pain of being poor is of no consequence.

:hi:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Don't be bashful
Let it all out TC.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. wow
nice spin. You've been practicing.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. You are most welcome to walk in my shoes any day!
When you receive the hate, then maybe you will have your eyes opened.

Until then, enjoy your superiority.

Nice liberalism. you've been practicing.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. I think we should back up a little
more than 5 out of every 100 on welfare. That is a staggering number to me. It says nothing about your personal situation. I know nothing about your personal situation. And I am not ashamed of that post in anyway what so ever.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Yes, back it up.
What is it you want to do with poor people?

We're running out of ice floes...

I'm not surprised you're not ashamed.

It's very popular in this country to have no compassion for poor people.

It's what we've come to.

AND, you may walk in my shoes any day!

Then you might see things differently.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. Lets start with helping them
If you think the old welfare system was doing that for all concerned then we disagree. Clinton was right to push the ones who could work to do so. I would rather see someone getting aid because they weren't earning a decent wage than see them staying home. If you look back at my original post, I said I salute him for trying to address the problem. I hold no illusions that it was "fixed" permanently. I also realize that some experienced additional hardships as a result. On the other hand as a society that wants to help we should be looking to get people work so they can gain confidence and be more self sufficient. I never said throw people in the street or make them more miserable btw. You are attacking the messenger instead of dealing with the issue.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Then read theOP.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. and welfare to the Halliburtons, etc. has gone up a Hell of a Lot More...
if we're talking about impressive staggering numbers.

american taxpayer monies (much of it from the working poor) used to go fancy up CEOs bank accounts and pay for soirees with the politicians who go along with illegal wars and then go bomb poor people in other countries. This is the kind of welfare that should sicken us. and any candidate who takes campaing donations from these mass murderers should not be trusted to have the wealthfare of the american People in mind.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. You'd think that would be what "liberals" would be stressing, wouldn't you?
But, instead, we get a rehash of Raygun.

From "liberals"

Then we'll hear the gnashing of teeth that poor folk haven't voted enough to suit them.

:nuke:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. I guess you can't stay on the topic. n/t
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. the topic is welfare reform, poverty and wealth.
I'm very on topic. What I have to ask is why are you so afraid of it?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #74
90. Sorry for not responding
I have been distracted. I am not afraid of discussing the subject as you can see below.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
65. How do you dare criticize the great Bill Clinton?
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 06:37 PM by Mass
These single mothers who had to leave their young kids alone in the early morning in order to go to work for a job that did not allowed them to pay for childcare are definitively guilty. They should have had the responsibility to be and stayed married. We all know that marriage fixes everything.

(:sarcasm: of course).
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. Indeed! Loyalty to the great Clinton far outweighs bothering to understand what his policies
did to poor folk.

Thanks for getting the connection... and just how close it comes to what people say they most hate about the RW.

:thumbsup:
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #65
73. that's so right on!
raising children is the least important job in the world! get out there and work for the man! leave those rugrats to fend for themselves.

grrrrrrrr.


:sarcasm: a gogleplex of 'sarcasm:
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #65
75. "marriage fixes everything", and DOMA (which also passed while he was POTUS)
says marriage is between a man and a woman. But... I digress.

Yeah... they should have had the responsibility to be and stayed married. :sarcasm:

TC

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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Anyway, each time I hear a Democrat tell that we are going to help poor people but they have to be
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 07:21 PM by Mass
responsible, I cannot stop yelling. Can we ask the rich to be responsible and pay their share of taxes, for a change!

Why did the Democrats steal this "welfare queen" philosophy from the Reagan era? Of course, most poor people are irresponsible drug addict meth dealers who want to get welfare money and just spend it without doing anything. :sarcasm:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. welfare queen
is not a line I ever bought into. But having babies to get on welfare is something I have personal knowledge of from the late 80's. It does no good to close our eyes to reality, that got us Reagan in case you haven't connected the dots.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Interesting philosophy. So, you know some people who are not responsible people and you think we
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 07:41 PM by Mass
need to punish everybody. Because, for many people, the bill was a punishment, not a help. This is the problem with a bill done in order to satisfy those who did not need welfare more than in order to help those who needed it, at the end, given all the compromises that were made to pass the bill.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. philosophy?
What is it you didn't get? In Los Angeles in the 80's it was common knowledge to everyone that young women were getting pregnant to get on welfare. Thats not a philosophy friend.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. No, the philosophy is to punish everyone for a few bad apples.
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 07:46 PM by Mass
Either that or you think every person on welfare was in this case?

Not to speak I am not sure I would blame somebody who was not rich in the first place to try to get some help one way or the other. I do not approve, but I am not sure I would blame her for that.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. putting aside "a few"
what would be your solution to prevent people from having babies not because they were in a loving realationship but to get government aid?
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. I apologize. I thought you were somebody sensible. Apparently,
you are part of those who think that babies should not be born to single mothers.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. omg
as I said, being blind to reality doesn't help, doesn't help the poor or anyone else. I am all for reform if it makes sense, and I am all for helping the poor. If a women feels like she has to get pregnant to survive, I want to help.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. Well, in practice, the reform did not help those who needed it and it was the point the OP was
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 07:57 PM by Mass
making. The main reason it did not is because it assumed poor people did not have personal responsibility.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Its not a question of personal responsibility
Edited on Fri Oct-19-07 08:02 PM by Jim4Wes
thats a RW spin. Its a question of education, a fair start in life, a safety net when its needed. These are all things Clinton tried to advance. All I am saying is that there was a problem that needed to be addressed at that time. As for its success, I have a hard time getting any good government statistics the last 6 or 7 years. I hope we can do better starting in 2009.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #87
107. Clinton did NOTHING to "advance" all that.
If you were willing to actually READ the OP, you would have discovered that.

Oh, and the reason you "have a hard time getting any good government statistics the last 6 or 7 years" is precisely because people weren't tracked! I've talked about this over and over and over again... they weren't tracked because they weren't even important enough. We can't even KNOW FOR SURE HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED because of this crap! We know that people died because of it... we just can't prove how many, because it wasn't important enough. That, right there, should say something to you about Clinton's "love" for poor people!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #83
105. You could sterilize all poor people.
That would satisfy all those who look down their nose at us, right????
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #105
113. I have decided
not to argue with you about this anymore. I am sorry I if offended you.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. "Why did the Democrats steal this "welfare queen" philosophy from the Reagan era?"
I dunno, but it is disgraceful, uncompassionate, and pandering to the worst instincts in the human heart. Greed should have no place in American society, but unfortunately, it is the only ideal that is served and honored by both Parties.

Even the Democratic Party's jones for war can be traced back to greed. It's disgusting.

TC

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #79
108. It's all part of the triangulating to pander to the RW.
It's crept up on us slowly, but it's now a strong part of the Dem party.

Have you ever actually tried to talk about poverty in a Dem meeting or Town Hall, or candidate meetup??? It's a *very* unpopular issue.

Yet, we will be subjected, over and over and over, to claims that "poor people don't vote".

IF that were true, which it isn't, it would certainly be understandable, would it not??



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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
88. Who cares??
It's all about the mighty Davenport bandwagon!!

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. ronny
whos that in the video?
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. Divine!!!!
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #92
106. Oh Divine...
Ever seen "Pink Flamingos"? Gawd...that one will stick with you for a while. An American Classic. Jahn Waters is a genius!





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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #106
112. Oh honey .... I loves me some Divine and Jon Waters
Some of the best movies made.

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ncabot22 Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-19-07 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
95. Interesting!
Thanks for posting. Lots of info to sift through.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
96. Kickin' this
:toast:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #96
109. Thanks! These people who suffered need to be remembered!
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
100. Bring back The Clinton Presidency - Round Deux



They're tanned. They're rested. They've been tested.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Oh gawd......
Aaaarrrrgggghhhhhhhhhhh.............. :rofl:


TC

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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-20-07 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
110. K&R.
Edited on Sat Oct-20-07 02:48 PM by AtomicKitten
:hi:
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