Florida Dem who pushed for early primary just "unendorsed" Obama.

[madfloridian]

Oh, how ugly this will get. Jeremy Ring has said since Obama won't campaign here, he won't vote for him.

Earth to Jeremy...you started the whole damn thing by introducing the bill along with Republicans.

So let's take it from the top. You pushed the bill, Gelber and Geller laughed their February 5th amendments off the floor and said oh no don't vote for our amendment...we just wanted to have something to show the DNC later.

Then all of you decided to send out press releases blaming everyone but yourselves. But that wasn't enough. You sent out emails asking people to stop donations to the DNC.

Unfortunately people are still yelling the DNC stole their votes. That is a lie you really need to fix.

Oh, and Jeremy Ring, shame shame on you.

Florida Politics Blog

Hillary Rodham Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards have signed a pledge card not to campaign in Florida in the Democratic primary due to the January 29th date and Florida stands to irrelevant in the Democratic Primary.

Top Democrat's are not taking this lying down however. State Senator Jeremy Ring, a Broward County Democrat who joined Republicans in pushing for a January 29th primary date has withdrawn his endorsement of Senator Barack Obama. Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller says, "Any candidate that boycotts Florida and thinks that they will raise money here will be sadly disappointed" and top Democratic fund raiser prominent Jacksonville trial lawyer Wayne Hogan phoned Howard Dean last week to cancel a DNC fund raiser.

The sad thing about this whole fiasco is that while Democrat's fight over a primary date and refuse to campaign in the state, Republicans are actively holding events through the state boosting their name recognition for the general election. Democrat's must unite, they must win Florida and the primary system must be revamped. November 2008, the Presidential nominee's will not be in South Carolina or Nevada, they will be in Florida, the candidates should be here in January of '08 as well earning the votes and trust of Florida voters.

How dare they threaten our candidates!! How dare they. These are the guys who gave press releases to blame the DNC...while all the while the DNC had the transcripts of their shenanigans.

Stop it. Grow up. Florida is just one state among many.

[madfloridian]

1. In case you don't believe Florida knew what would happen??

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.

I am starting to welcome this fight. Been a long time coming, and enough is enough. Florida tried to undermine the DNC's fundraising then told me to hush about it.

Long time coming, very welcome fight.

May the most honest ones win.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

2. Why don't they want Florida to have an early primary?

What do they think will happen if Florida has an early primary?

[madfloridian]

3. I think I should get an A for effort.

I have no idea what you mean by your question, but I have written extensively about the early primary.

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

[Sarah Ibarruri]

12. I realize I sound incredibly stupid, but I don't understand......

All articles discuss how the Dems had 4 states as part of their rules yadda yadda yadda. However, they're almost terror-stricken with the idea of Florida doing an early primary, and that's what my question is about. Why are they so scared? What on earth is so vital about having only 4 states do an early primary? There's something I'm not understanding. Or maybe I should ask it this way......

Why don't they have all states do it at the same time?

Or - why do they only have 4 states do it first?

Am I not explaining my question right?

[jmp]

15. Because then the voters would get to decide ...

Who the nominee is. We can't have that. We need a limited controlled process that can be easily manipulated by the DNC cabal.

[madfloridian]

21. Aha! I should have known that was you.

Back you go.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

29. Aaaaah! I knew there was a secret to this thing. nt

[madfloridian]

16. I posted all those articles for you to read.

I guess I don't know how else to tell you. Florida and Michigan voted for the rules set by the DNC committee appointed by McAuliffe.

They knew the sanctions were AUTOMATIC, and would be enforced. They did it anyway to show they are big and important. The rules committee applied the sanctions.

The 4 states in the pre-window were to give lesser candidates a fighting chance.

Bigger states don't want that.

I don't get your statement that the DNC is afraid of Florida. It makes no sense, and I have written so thoroughly about it.

I don't know what else to say to you.

[nickinSTL]

28. ok, I'm new to this whole thing, but...

how exactly does all of this affect the Dems' chances in Florida, do you think?

I've talked a bit about it with my mom, a Dem in Florida, and she's so fed up, she might not vote at all next year.

Guess what, if the Dems' primary in Florida is meaningless, it doesn't hurt just the Florida legislature, Florida Dem hierarchy, it hurts the Democratic Party in Florida as a whole, INCLUDING the Dems' chances of even competing in the presidential election in November '08.

Seems like they're all trying very hard to lose Florida to the Repubs before a single vote is cast.

[madfloridian]

31. Florida knew all that. That is why they diverted the anger to the DNC

They hoped people would not notice.

Florida voted for the rules which gave 4 more easily accessible states the right to go first, IA, NV, NH, and SC.

They voted for the rules set up by a committee set up by McAuliffe in a bargain with Levin of Michigan, who always wanted to go first as well.

My gripe with my state is that they used propaganda to turn the anger from themselves and turn it on Dean and the DNC. It is working quite well in Florida.

They then sent an email around with the contribution number to the DNC, and a kind of you know what to do....in other words stop donations.

I am sorry your mother is angry. I am angry also. I am angry they are lying about a decent man who really is trying to build the party in all states to be competitive.

I give up trying to get anyone here to care at all. They simply do not pay attention. I shared info, and some told me it was too complicated.

I don't know what else to say. I would like to say more about what I suspect but I won't.

[ooglymoogly]

87. my guess most Florida Dems are really repukes who cannot get

elected as pugs so they are doing as much damage to the democrats as they can and as they will in congress and the senate. Confusing things is puke politics 101 and my bet is the pukes are supporting these DINO'S as they did Lie-butman...and yes imo there are a few real dems that come from Florida having myself spent many winters in Florida and watching the very crooked politics there.

[The Backlash Cometh]

73. Have you read any of the articles?

The RNC is applying the same sanctions to the Florida Republicans for doing the same thing. I fully agree with the national party policys. Florida had a chance to throw their name in the hat when the national parties voted for the early primary states. They didn't request that their name be included.

This has nothing to do with protecting anybody's right to vote. If it was, the Florida Republicans and Florida Democrats would have agreed on a uniform method of voting that included paper trails. But to date, Republican counties still have the scantrons with paper trails, and the Democratic counties have the touchscreen without papertrails. Instead, this fight with the national parties is a powerplay which could bring Florida the only thing that Florida politicians care about: money. Because primaries mean that lots of people are going to need hotels to stay in and convention halls to rent out.

[iamjoy]

74. Florida Has Paper Trails

that was part of the legislation later attached to the early primary bill. It won't be in time for the 01/29/07 primary, but will for the general election.

[The Backlash Cometh]

75. Seven years was an awfully long time to wait for them to be installed.

And quite frankly, to tie the two pieces of legislation together was absolute political drama. So sophomoric and transparent.

[Terri S]

77. Amen!!! n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

30. Yes, I know that part.....

1) The rules were made by the DNC
2) There were sanctions
3) They have to be followed...

blah blah blah

The articles explain that over and over. I memorized all that.

(But that wasn't my question, of course).

[madfloridian]

33. What was the question again?

Unless you want to call everything I say as blah blah blah...and BTW thanks for the kind words.

:wow:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. The question is................

What is the ADVANTAGE of having no states EXCEPT FOR 4 decide who the nominee will be. Why not let all the states vote on the same day? Why can't I have my solid vote? Why do I have to wait till Iowa votes? Why?

Answer: Because ______________________________________________________________________

[madfloridian]

41. I just answered you best I could.

I will leave it to others since you said I wrote Blah blah blah.

I resented that. I take time with my posts and journals and I think you were insulting to me.

[Divine Discontent]

50. blah blah blah

:hide:

[Divine Discontent]

49. "Answer: Because______________"

<<<The 4 states in the pre-window were to give lesser candidates a fighting chance. >>>

Meaning, small states get to go first because candidates with less pull and money can compete all across Iowa & NH and speak to people one on one and explain why they're the candidate to back, instead of having one big day of voting, because, in doing that, you all but guarantee that the big $ candidates will focus nearly all of their time & money in big population states where they already have leads, it sort of guarantees the big name recognition candidate will always win if you vote all at once. The whole idea of using these small states first is to give everyone a fair shot who has a decent campaign and message.

I've been unimpressed with Florida's Democrats (not "Democrat's" as that excerpt from the other website says, that irks me when I see apostrophes after every word with an "s", and the article does it with another word later on! lol) ever since I've been voting. They're sorta lazy and agreeable to the fact that Repubs have taken over the state's politics.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

80. Ok got it. Thanks :)

So it helps candidates with less money, and it helps states that have less voters.

[sendero]

93. The answer is so simple..

.. nobody is going to bother answering you. But if you really want to know, how do you think our primaries are going to work if Florida, or any other state, decides to create their own schedule? First FL, then another state then another and then chaos.

Dean is absolutely correct, this situation has NO shades of gray FL is WRONG.

[tkmorris]

39. It's a valid question, BUT

The problem is that such questions were asked and resolved months ago when the state by state primary rules were made. The rules that Florida Dems agreed to and signed off on state that they cannot hold a primary prior to Feb 5. The rules exist to ensure that there is diversity in the early primaries (where the frontrunners will emerge) and to prevent states moving up their primaries earlier and earlier in a giant 50 state game of "Us first".

Florida knew what the rules were, and as I stated agreed to abide by them. If they are allowed to now break them chaos will ensue with every state moving their primaries up in defiance of the schedule. It would end with some state having a primary next Tuesday.

If Florida wants it's primary to be more relevant it had the opportunity to have it Feb 5, or any later date. If they objects to Iowa and New Hampshire going before them they can certainly make their case but they should have done that WHEN THE RULES WERE BEING NEGOTIATED, not now.

By the way, I live in Delray Beach Florida. It's my vote at stake here, but I am under no illusions about who is responsible for it being in jeopardy. And it isn't the DNC, it's our state party officials.

[flyarm]

42. AS A 2004 DEM DELEGATE FOR THE STATE OF FLORIDA..IT WAS NOT DNC ..IT WAS DLC

THAT DID THIS!
this was planned and executed by the DLC so their candidates could win..preferably Hillary..this was planned by Rahm E. and the DLC..just like they screwed our real great dems last year in the nov 2006 election!

the DLC encouraged dems in state legislature to vote for this early vote..snd it was supported by those in the state FDP that are supporting Hillary..it is another dirty trick played on Fla voters! and this time by the DLC and rethugs!

fly

[avrdream]

58. If you want to yell: THIS DOES NOT HELP HILLARY!!!!

If she was leading in Florida (the polls say she was way ahead) and now cannot campaign there and cannot get those delegates, it doesn't help her!

This hurts all Democrats. Pay attention.

[flyarm]

60. like i said i am a delegate until new ones are seated..i think i have a good idea what it does in my

state..and if you are so silly to think that any primary candidate who goes to the convention isn't going to seat the Fla delegates..i have some swamp land for you in Fla!
No one ..is going to exclude the Fla delegates.

fly

[MaineDem]

76. There are no delegates now

I'm not sure what you mean by saying you are one until new ones are seated.

2004 is over and those delegates' duties were complete when the convention ended.

The convention, not the candidates, decide if a delegation will be seated at the convention. The credentials committee will present its report to the convention as a whole and the delegates already seated will vote ont he report.

[RaleighNCDUer]

98. It would help Hillary if the DNC was to back down and let Florida

get away with this. Instead of competing in the small primary states, where she goes up against not only Obama and Edwards, but also Kucinich and Richardson and Biden et al, who can afford to meet her head on because of the lower expense of the smaller campaigns, she could pour a shitload of cash into Florida and overwhelm her opponants, few of whom would be able to match the depth of her reach in a high population state.

So you're right - it doesn't help Hillary unless the DNC can be bullied into backing down. Which is, from what I've read here, what a lot of people expect the DNC to do, (in the interests of not disenfranchising Florida, of course).

[MaineDem]

69. The elected memebers of the DNC - from all states - agreed to th e rules

In an attempt to clean up the primary process - which actually has proven to be not the right answer - the DNC elected to have four states go first. They looked at geographical and other diversity issues in deciding on adding Nevada and So Carolina to Iowa and New Hampshire. All other states would be allowed to begin their process on February 5. Automatic sanctions were agreed upon for states that go before the Feb. 5 date, other that the initial four.

States were given an option of picking up more delegates if they delayed their delegate selection until later in the process in another attempt to avoid front-loading.

All states were invited to present their cases for being one of the four. I don't know if Michigan took part in that but I'm pretty sure Florida did not make a presentation.

Other states are abiding by those rules, including Washington which is in a similar situation to MI and FL. They will hold caucuses to select delegates.

The DNC also made arrangements for states which might be subverted by a Republican legislature - such as in Florida's case. Consideration would be given if the state Democrats fought the legislation as strenuously as they could.

Florida now has 30 days to reach a compromise with the DNC to avoid sanctions.

I've tried to present these facts without any comment. I hope it helps explain the situation.

[madfloridian]

35. Someone just referred to my posts as blah blah blah.

Oh, thank you so very much.

[flyarm]

43. Madfloridian keep up the great threads..no one has done more to inform readers here at DU!!

and as a 2004 Elected Dem Delegate for our state of Fla ..i appreciate all your posts and threads and the work you have done to inform so many!!

thank you!!:yourock: :applause: :applause: :applause: :patriot: :patriot:

fly

[Divine Discontent]

51. right on n/t

[madfloridian]

66. Thanks to both of you.

:-)

[riona]

68. Don't worry about the criticism

You've shown the side of the story that has been largely ignored. With all our problems, faulty machines, voter registration manipulation, lost votes, confusing ballots, etc., I'm beginning to feel that we have a less than honest government. If they want people to get discouraged and stay away from the polls, they've accomplished their mission.

[sandnsea]

116. You're doing outstanding work

I wish we had someone from Michigan doing as great a job as you have been so we can figure out what the heck is going on up there.

[madfloridian]

119. It's not good enough. The Florida Dems got the media on their side.

But at least I am creating more angry people here locally...they are starting to call us now.

[kenny blankenship]

5. They think Michigan will have an earlier one

and then California will demand to have an even earlier one and New York will also demand to have an even earlier one, and then skipping over some other states, Iowa will move theirs up so as to be first again, and then New Hampshire will one up them by starting their primary voting before Thanksgiving --of this year.

If they give in to Florida's bullying there'll be no end to it, and the little states will STILL demand to go first. Then 4 years later the whole screaming clusterfuck will start all over again.

[madfloridian]

There may be changes by the 2012 primary.

Unless the nominee who traditionally takes over the party and orders everyone else what to do....says no to change.

[jmp]

11. Because democracy is evil.

...

[tkmorris]

40. Do you EVER make an argument?

Or do you just post childish drivel?

[Bongo Prophet]

54. JMP is a proud and rare Giuliani supporter. I think it is a pretty good match.

Having a final fling before moving on, perhaps.
:think:

[flyarm]

55. You mean Rudy who was responsible for the failures for first responders on 9/11??

that Rudy..or the rudy who ignored all the warnings about not putting the command center in the WTC?

or the Rudy who had a "love shack " in building 7 so he could have trists while married to Donna Hanover with his new slut? and the same Rudy who let his bobo Bernie K. use his "love shack" when rudy wasn't using it??

or do you mean the Rudy who had lunch everday at the top mafia restaurant in little italy in Manhattan?

or the Rudy who screwed his lover in his wifes bed??

ohhhh now i get it..it is the same Rudy..the Rudy who said he was at ground zero as much as the first responders only to find out he spent 29 days showing up for a little bit each of those days.. but spent 4 times as much time at NY Yankee games!!

hell my son worked at ground zero helping feed the first responders..and my son spent more time at ground zero than rudy did!..oh and now my son's lungs have been compromised...all because Rudy lied to the first responders and told them the air was safe..and to keep digging until the "Gold" was found under the rubble..that fucker Rudy!

or do you mean the Rudy who had remains of the victims paved over for a road because the "GOLD" was recovered and the bodies of my co-wokers who died that day ...didn't matter anymore to him..or the rudy who had body parts of victims used in pot holes through-out NY and NJ..that Rudy??

the only thing Rudy should be up for is an orange suit and shackles and damn jail cell!

fly

[Bongo Prophet]

57. That is the one True Rudy, flyarm. You too could switch, since the DNC is so bad and all

It's a new trend.
It's vogue to go rogue!
Maybe orange will be the new black.

Not being a fascion maven, nor even owning a pair of jackboots, I found his reasoning nonsensical:
How one can go from Hillary to Rudy - well, it is a stretch, but possible. A few steps to the right, few more...keep going... a bit more...okay.
But maybe green party instead! (Runs to the left, hops over Hillary and all others, past Kucinich...and runs some more....fade out)
Or maybe straight GOP!
Cuz this is the last straw, dems hate democracy. damn them all to blazes.
Blazes I say.

At which point my head exploded.:think:
In clarity I saw something that walks like duck, quacks like duck.
Lie down with ducks, and you'll wake up with fleece. :)

The point is, dems are so bad, dirty nasty and naughty.
gosh, anything's better than that!

:wtf:

[flyarm]

59. the point is we need to face false crap with truth..and many in Fla are fighting for truth

it is just that sometimes it is damn frustrating..which means we have to fight back harder!! and with more resolve.

even though many of us have been told to be quiet in Fla ...make no waves....they will never shut me up..not when truth is on my side!!

I believe what has been going on is to marginalize progressives in Fla by the party..i don't think that will work..maybe in a short term , but not in the long term.

oh and i would never ever switch from DrDean..I believe he is the best thing that has come along in the Dem party.

the DLC in my book ..lost us many candidates seats in 2004 and 2006 in Fla..many times i have wondered ..who are they working for??

not me.. that is for damn sure!!

fly

[Bongo Prophet]

61. On this issue, I am still in discovery mode. Truth is always the goal!

I do have trust built up in Dean, based on his actions.
I do have skepticism of SOME Fla dems due to infiltration - we saw it in 2000 big time.
Theresa LaPore, with the Texas and Kashogi connections for one.

My few contacts there have said that you CANNOT overstate the weird mix of corrupt party people, Cuban mafia, bush mafia and on and on. They just shake their heads, and say if you want a long life, to stay out of it...

So, rather than jump to conclusions, I am learning - but can discern certain patterns I have seen before.
As a Texan, we have seen some "Hey you two guys fight" type tactics, and just about every other thing too.

It takes two honest parties to reach a compromise.
I suspect it may be difficult.

[madfloridian]

62. You make a good point. Just trying to understand things here is hard.

It is like in 2003 we found someone we trusted..more centrist than we were but open to change. In fact demanding change in a party that had campaigned it just a few states for years while the others suffered financially and often went into bankruptcy.

We trust Dean. There are many we do not trust. They are taking our party where we don't want it to go.

When I see our state party deliberately trying to undermine him and crash his fundraising, I get very angry.

We trust him.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

114. You are accusing me of being paid again.

You are tracking me.

[jmp]

102. Correction: Democracy is drivel!

...

[yewberry]

64. Here's why:

It has nothing whatsoever to do with FL or MI.

There's a "small-state" strategy that's in place right now. Smaller states (ie those with fewer electoral votes in the general election) are given a larger voice in the primaries for a number of reasons. Larger states get far more attention and weight in the general election (because they have the electoral votes) and their roles are much larger later in the cycle.

Less-known and less-funded candidates can campaign effectively in small states. Only well-funded candidates can compete in a playing field like FL or CA or NY. Small states allow candidates to campaign in a way that larger states do not. In small states, retail politics can take place. Grassroots efforts can make a real difference, but the dynamics in larger states don't allow for that to happen. Also, with small-state events, candidates have an opportunity to work on honing their messages and issues--this is often overlooked in this discussion, but it's very important to candidates.

So, if FL has an early primary, all of the rest of the states will probably be resentful, because they (the other states) played by the rules. The national party will look like fools. The candidates will have to face hardships (like being 'unendorsed,' as Obama has been in FL). And what will happen in the general election? It looks like the FL Dem party doesn't care, as long as they get what they want. Even worse, FL Dems haven't been honest about their role in all of this and have tried to paint themselves as victims somehow.


Really, it's just shameful.

[madfloridian]

65. Good post.

Clear points.

:hi:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

82. Thank you for explaining this. I have one more question.

What's in it for Florida to insist on being counted first along with Iowa, etc.?

[yewberry]

88. I think someone in FL might have a better answer

because I don't know local politics there.

From here, it looks like FL voters like the idea because they want their voices to be heard earlier and to be able to vote for candidates that might drop out after a shaky early showing. They probably don't like the small-state plan because they'll never be a small state.

So, more power and media attention, I guess.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

91. But isn't it unfair to count the small states as if they were large?

That's the opposite of counting each person's vote as one vote. I've always believed that each person's vote should have a full value, regardless of whether they live in a small state or a large state, whether the state they're in has more money or less, etc. To do anything other than counting each person's vote as one independent vote, is somehow not fair. No? For example, in Spain, each person's vote counts as one, regardless of which governing region of Spain they're in. Each person is a world onto himself. Nobody is suddenly considered a fraction of a vote, or left till last to vote, simply because they live in a large region. On the other hand, Spanish elections are fair. In Spain, politicians don't *have to* kiss corporate ass to run for office. Here, if someone doesn't kiss corporate ass, they won't have the money to run for office unless they *are* rich and corporate. :(

[yewberry]

99. I'm not sure exactly what you mean.

The system is incredibly frustrating, and I wish there was an easy way to explain it, but here goes.

The number of primary delegates varies from state to state based on population and number of registered voters, so small states aren't counted as though they were large. For example, the Dem delegation from NH is 30; from CA, it's 441. Some small states are earlier, but they are still small states and so have fewer delegates.


Also, the Dem party uses a proportional representation system, so it's not a 'winner-take-all' thing.
Good explanation of PR:
"The Democratic Party always uses a proportional method for awarding delegates. The percentage of delegates each candidate is awarded (or the number of undecided delegates) is representative of the mood of the caucus-goers or the number of primary votes for the candidate.

For example imagine a state with ten delegates and three candidates. If 60% of the people supported candidate X, 20% supported candidate Y, and 20% supported candidate Z, candidate X would receive six delegates and candidates Y and Z would each receive two delegates.

The Republican Party, unlike the Democratic Party, allows each state to decide whether to use the winner-take-all method or the proportional method. In the winner-take-all method the candidate whom the majority of caucus participants or voters support receives all the delegates for the state.

It is essential to remember that this is a general guide and that the primary system differs significantly from state to state. The best way to find information about your state is to contact your state Board of Elections (mystate_government_resources.php)"

(from vote-smart.org).

I hope that made sense...if any sense can be made of our system! :crazy:

[madfloridian]

4. And in case anyone cares...Florida bloggers are joining the FDP

in placing blame on the DNC and now taking it more personally toward Dean.

I think if the battle goes on, I think that honesty and integrity will actually win this time. I think Florida's propaganda will catch up to them.

The bad part is that a couple of friends and I are not speaking for a while because they asked me not to make waves.

Waves? Time for a tsunami.

[Netbeavis]

6. Who does Florida think it is?

If any state should think twice about changing anything about voting it should be Florida.

I am tired of the money grab and me-me-me in this whole primary set up.

What should happen is N.H, Iowa & S.C for starters and then a regional primary system that will vote several weeks from the end of the first three and several weeks in between. Candidates then don't have to choose between a Florida or a Michigan as the two will never directly compete with each other on the calendar.

This way, candidates can stump in regions and gain momentum if they are rising, or try to stem the fall if they are crashing. It takes the money grab out of the primaries, and allows the candidates to focus on their campaign.


'nuff said.

[madfloridian]

7. Nevada is also in the pre-window now...

So much more diversity. Florida thinks it is the biggest and most important dog with the loudest bark.

[jmp]

10. Fine ... just anything but democracy.

That would be the ruin of the party.

[flyarm]

45. oh nonsense..do you say anything that is informed..or do you just put nonsense out into cyberspace

do you think anyone cares about your one liners ..when many of us are fighting for democracy?

ans to save democracy...

wow ...is all i can say...

please before making anymore foolish statements go read madfloridians journals..if anyone needs to it, is you!

take the time to get informed before blowing smoke up anyone's ass!

fly

[jmp]

104. Democracy means government by the people.

At least it does over here ... where America used to be.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy

I'm not sure what it means where you are.

[ClintonTyree]

105. Exactly.....

and Florida agreed, in a DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, to NOT have their primary BEFORE February 5. Now, they're changing the rules, in a very UNDEMOCRATIC fashion, in order to make their primary seem more important than the others they already agreed upon. THEY'RE the ones who are subverting the democratic process.

You seem to be a stickler for Democracy to the letter of the law. Surely, you must be able to see that it is Florida's DLC and Republicans that are trying to muddy the democratic process here, NOT Howard Dean and the DNC? Or perhaps you don't want to see? :shrug:

[jmp]

107. There is nothing "democratic" about cabals of party insiders.

And party insiders have no right to sign away the franchise for entire states.

Florida did not agree ... regardless of what a handful of party insiders may have voted for.

[ClintonTyree]

117. So, a handful of party insiders......

at work NOW trying to get Florida's primary pushed up is OK though? :wtf:

You're a real piece of work, you are. :eyes:

[aquart]

8. He's from Broward? BROWARD?

You mean he was actually planning to count the votes this time?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

9. I applaud you, madfloridian and your fellow citizens.You had the misfortune to reside

in a state which become a proving ground for stealing elections.

But, the citizens of your state have been a example of keeping the pressure on and an extraordinary grass roots movement. Don't some of your counties now have paper ballots?

It is beyond unfair that you all have an ethically challenged DINO in the state senate who believed GOP lies and then decided to blame his own party's national headquarters. What a maroon, to quote Mr. B. Bunny.

I can't thank you enough for keeping us posted and :toast: to your work and :applause: to all Floridians, who are keeping on keeping on!

MKJ

[jmp]

13. "Don't some of your counties now have paper ballots?"

:spray:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

18. Oh, I was referencing, after quick research, House Bill CS/HB 537. Closer than many other states.

MKJ

[jmp]

23. That's not what I'm laughing about.

I'm sure madfloridian will be along shortly to explain your own funny to you.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

26. Cool.

Thanks! :hi: MKJ

[madfloridian]

112. You do not quit, do you. You have been tracking me.

And I am getting tired of it.

You have done this for days now. I don't know how long it can go on.

[flyarm]

46. what you don't know..i thought you were an expert on Florida..and our democracy..whaaaaaaaaaaaa

you don't have a smarmy answer??

fly

[napi21]

14. I don't mean to insult the few good Fl. Dems we have, but do you

have to take some kind of STUPID PILLS when you move to Fl? I don't think I've ever seen anything quite a stupid as this battle over primary dates! For GOD SAKE, you can still be relavant, just move your damn primary to some Tuesday in February!

I never knew much about Fl. before 2000. But after watching some of the fools holding punch cards up to the light, hearing about the butterfly ballots, watching the Elian Gonzales escapade, and living through Schiavo, I really don't want to see or hear any more about Fl. The whole crowd needs to just get their act together and join the rest of the States!

[jmp]

17. "just move your damn primary to some Tuesday in February!"

Yep, just in time to vote for the 1 major candidate left in the race ... like every other Presidential primary. Sounds good.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

20. Welcome to DU, jmp!

:hi: MKJ

[CTLawGuy]

22. Why don't you organize a campaign for FL to vote AGAINST

whoever NH and IA vote for, then you'll be relevant. It's becuase the other states vote like sheep for whomever IA and NH choose, that those states are so powerful.

[jmp]

24. And that's why Dean wants them to go first.

...

[CTLawGuy]

27. I think it's more about tradition than anything

believe me, Dean is no fan (from personal experience) of sheep voting in later states. It's also about allowing retail politics to work.

[lojasmo]

44. Dean....sheep voting in later states.

I like to think he appreciated my vote in 2003 (MN)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. That's wrong. Every state should vote on the SAME DAY.

What kind of bullshit is this that 4 states should set the "tone" for the rest of us? Makes no sense.

[CTLawGuy]

34. the argument against that is

that then only the candidate with the biggest warchest and the most name recognitition could win the huge national primary.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. See? That sounds like the electoral college.

Every person's vote should count as 1 vote. The way it's done in this country, that's not the case. I don't like that. I believe my vote should count as one whether I live in Delaware or New York.

[CTLawGuy]

38. well in the primary it does

its because people keep dropping out early before the bigger states that they have less power.

[Hippo_Tron]

52. Not at all the same as the general election and the electoral college

Once you get the nomination you have the party machinery behind you and also approximately $70 million in matching funds from the federal government should you choose to accept them (every candidate thus far has). The nominees of both major parties have sufficient resources to run a national campaign with or without the electoral college and anybody who says otherwise is lying.

Primaries are different because the candidates don't get $70 million from the federal government and don't have a party machine behind them. Until we get public financing and a level playing field we need to let the small states go first. We can make other states more relevant by spreading out the contests instead of this front loading bullshit.

In 1992 the two biggest states, California and New York, didn't get to go first but they had a voice because Clinton needed to win them in order to fend off a late challenge from Jerry Brown. Had California and New York voted for Jerry Brown, the nomination may very easily have gone a different way.

Iowa and New Hampshire only pick the nominee because they now hold Super Tuesday the week after. Have one primary per week in the beginning and let states weed out the candidates on a more level playing field in terms of resources. Then the two or three remaining candidates who will by then have sufficient national recognition can duke it out in the big states.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

84. Ok thanks. nt

[napi21]

25. So pick Feb. 5th! That way you'pll be voting with everyone else!

I'm sorry! I just don't understand this at all!!!! I remember living in Pa, and several other States who had their primaries LATE in the summer! I remember how I hated it that my vote didn't matter because by then, many candidates had already dropped out, and it was a given who the Party candidate was going to be. I sympathize with you for wanting to vote in a Primary that still matters, but this January and even December 07 talk is just nuts!!!!

[jmp]

89. Sure ... just have Iowa, NH, SC & Nevada move back to Feb 5 too

...

[madfloridian]

19. Stupid pills would help.

But I don't have any.

:hi:

No offense taken.

[flyarm]

47. the FDP is questionable..at best! and those of us who have been fighting for change in Fla

are the ones they shut up first..

i really believe all the years under Jeb our party has been hijacked inFla..and infiltrated by repugs playing at being dems!

i have lived in 9 states and have worked with the dem party in each of those states and i have never seen such a mess in my life..and when anyone speaks out they silence you..and now the DLC is running bascially the FDP..its a disgrace..i have now seen so many wonderful dems leave the party..out of frustration and disgust.

thank god i live in 2 states and i can have sanity in my other state with dems and the dem party..

the DLC in my oppinion is trying to kill progressives in Fla..in every way they can!

fly

[illinoisprogressive]

48. how dare they try to hold our candidates, the dnc and Dean hostage to their baby games.

[madfloridian]

53. I was just reading through all the Florida blogs I could find.

They are so totally on board with the FDP on this issue. I have not found a single one even questioning the decision. I read one where they had been meeting with the FDP...and you think it would be a good thing for bloggers to meet with the state.

They are in many instances calling to stop funding the DNC under Dean, just like in the email I saved.

To me that is like trying to destroy an arm of your own party deliberately.

I am convinced now this is a move inspired by the DLC leaning group called Florida Mainstream Democrats.

[Bongo Prophet]

63. This DOES seem like a push back on 50 state strategy. Fighting a shift of power, tightly held.

After all, they have entrenched interests there that would not like the balance of power to shift to more progressive DFA types.
So, that theory makes some sense.

The GOP sure was on board with it.


Thank you for the links, madfloridian.
Your time on this is quite valued here.

:hi:

[MaineDem]

70. Clinton, Edwards, Richardson, Dodd, and one other have endorsed the 50-state strategy

It might be Kucinich, I can't remember.

They get it! Hopefully, they all will endorse it before this is over.

[jmp]

90. $$$$$

...

[madfloridian]

56. Just saw this about Jeremy and Florida's new sex offender for life law...

This looks pretty stringent. One of his remarks bothered me. He's not in my district so I have not paid much attention.

http://www.youthrights.org/forums/showthread.php?t=12259

"FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. -- Public defenders plan to challenge a new law that expands Florida's sex offender registry to include teens as young as 14 who have been convicted in the secrecy of juvenile court.

The law that went into effect July 1 will list those juvenile offenders, their addresses and other information on the same Web site as adults convicted as pedophiles and sexual predators. The designation will follow them and their families when they enter schools, move and apply for college and jobs. "Juveniles are not adult offenders," said Gordon Weekes, an assistant public defender based in Fort Lauderdale. "There are all kinds of successful efforts at rehabilitation."

""I don't want some guy or girl involved in a romantic relationship on a public sex offender's list," said Sen. Jeremy Ring, D-Margate. Ring, though, has no problem with requiring nonconsensual offenders to go on the list. He said teens 14 and older should know right from wrong.

The law passed unanimously in the House and Senate, but at least one legislator is having second thoughts.

"We don't want to put some juvenile who's having a bad day on the list for something stupid, some lewd prank," said Rep. Jack Seiler, D-Wilton Manors. "Depending on how this law is understood, we may have to revisit this in the next session."

Seiler is the lone Democrats who voted against the Florida primary move-up.

So Jeremy, you are right about 14 years old knowing right from wrong. But for life, and to be branded?

More on it:

http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2056160769539442207/posts/default

"Young teens convicted of sex crimes behind the closed doors of juvenile court will now end up on the state's public registry of sex offenders.

A state law that went into effect July 1 will list teens as young as 14 on the same Web site as adults who are convicted pedophiles and sexual predators. The designation will follow them and their families as they enter schools, move to new communities and eventually apply for colleges, trade schools and jobs.

Some public defenders and legal experts describe the law as revolutionary because it makes public the actions of juvenile court. They say it may hinder rehabilitation of those who commit relatively minor offenses by publicly labeling them as sex offenders. Public defenders plan to challenge the law, saying it sentences juveniles as adults without allowing jury trials.

And some specialists in the field say parents, often the first to learn of teens' sex crimes, may be reluctant to seek help for their children if they will be labeled and their families' homes identified on the sex offender list.

"Their names, their home address, and other information are going to be there for the public to see," said Jan Abee, who is helping the Department of Juvenile Justice carry out the law. "That means a lot for their families, too, because they'll be living at the same address."

[retread]

67. Any independent "political thought" from the establishment of a state that gives

Jeb's 8 years a 60% approval should be looked at the same as that steaming brown pile your dog left on your carpet.

[The Backlash Cometh]

71. Thanks for the info, MadFloridian.

I wouldn't have even known he existed if you hadn't posted. It's good to know who to hold accountable. I just wish they had been just as efficient and cooperative in providing a uniform election process in Florida, with paper trails.

[Terri S]

72. Madfloridian,

Meet one very PISSED Floridian. I am LIVID! And the more I think about all this the more pissed I get!

You know, I can understand thinking the system is unfair. Fine. There's a lot that needs to be reformed with regards to elections. But you don't approve the rules, then disregard them months before a primary, and then blame everyone else when you have consequences...consequences you were well aware of when you approved the damn rules. This whole thing is such total bs! In the end, it's always the voters who get f'd over. This is simply more political manipulation. No one has done a thing to address the serious election problems we've had since 2000. I still lived in NY at the time, but no one will ever get over that fiasco. Then all the crap again in 2004. Where the hell was the party leadership then? Where was the FDP then? What have they been doing all this time to address any of it??

I've written flaming letters to Nelson (for all the good that will do) and Wasserman-Schultz with a copy to Dean, and I've encouraged everyone I know (who is even aware any of this is going on) to do the same. I personally have never talked to any floridian that wasn't really angry at the FDP about this. Many are refusing to vote at all. Unfortunately, I also know Repubs that were going to change parties to vote for Obama, and are now mad as hell he won't campaign down here. The republican party must be just eating this sh$t up!

Grrrrrr........I've been kicking myself ever since I left NY and moved down to this gawdforsaken state and this just tops the list. :mad:


btw...thank you so much for all the work you've done on this. :yourock:

[madfloridian]

79. Thanks for that post. It really does give me some hope there are others.

In my area we can't get past the "Dean stole my vote" thing.

To know there are places people are more aware makes it worth it.

The FDP had a meeting with the Florida bloggers and the bloggers agreed to push this issue for them. They are doing a hell of a job at Daily Kos and at their blogs.

I saw one blog saying to this effect: that they just got out of their meeting with Karen and the deal is on about the primary. Then something like the DNC will be sorry they ever messed with Florida.

[iamjoy]

78. The DNC Has Been Shameful On This

While Karen Thurman has been sending out e-mails asking for our support, asking us to send comments to Howard Dean to let our votes count, the DNC has been silent.

The DNC should be sending every Florida Democrat an e-mail explaining their position and what they are willing to do and asking us to contact Karen Thurman to reach an agreeable compromise.

If the DNC cannot manage this little insurgency by a bunch of Florida Democrats, how are they going to help manage the Republican smear machine against our eventual nominee?

Chairman Dean, you've shown you have at least one ball in holding to your threat to strip delegates. Now prove you have another and fight the FDP propaganda.
(pardon the vulgarity)

[madfloridian]

94. Uh, they did manage it very well.

I don't believe what you are saying.

They managed it, and now Florida is going to have to blink.

It was managed well by the DNC, poorly by Florida.

[iamjoy]

96. We'll Have To See

Right now, the sentiment of most of Florida seems to be against the DNC.

Of course, if the state does agree to a caucus, then I will acknowledge you were right all along and the DNC did manage it well. I really don't want our dirty laundry dragged through the courts.

[madfloridian]

100. If they hear only one side....a lie...of course their sentiment is with Florida.

Florida has planned this and it is well coordinated with the media.

I have been attacked unmercifully both locally and online.

But I consider it important enough to keep trying to get the truth out.

[IndianaGreen]

101. It is your personal interpretation and opinion that Florida Democrats are liars

But as we all know, your very negative opinion of Democratic Floridians is not universally shared by the Democratic rank-and-file in Florida.

Unless, of course, you are claiming Papal infallibility, and even that is subject to interpretation.

[iamjoy]

106. Whose Fault Is That

I come back to my earlier argument that the DNC deserves responsibility for NOT getting its message out and its failure causes me great concern for how it will handle the general election in 2008.

I don't think it's fair to try and attack you for providing a different perspective on this.

[Colobo]

81. Obama haters are celebrating this.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

83. Why is that? nt

[Colobo]

86. Because everything that is not favorable for Obama brings them joy.

[madfloridian]

85. No one should be celebrating something like this.

There is no excuse for behavior like this on the part of our Florida Democrats.

It's shameful, and every Obama supporter should push to find out who is behind this stuff.

[dansolo]

92. Does anyone think this may have been planned to go after Dean?

The Dems in power have been desperate to get rid of Dean. They had to know that this ploy in Florida and Michigan would never work. The rules are clear cut, and the sanctions are automatic. But now they have a coordinated effort to have the rank-and-file, the core of Dean's support, turn against him. Maybe I'm a little paranoid, but I don't believe for a moment that the Florida politicians give a crap about voter's rights, and I don't believe that this was done to benefit Hillary either. I think that this is a ploy to undermine Howard Dean, and was conceived as such from the beginning.

[Vinca]

95. I'm getting that sick feeling that somehow, some way, Democrats

will grab defeat from the jaws of victory . . . again. We ought to be fighting Republicans, not each other.

[madfloridian]

97. Now PBS is blaming all of it on the DNC....with the help of Castor and other Democrats.

They are not taking respsonsibility for what they did. And they continue to use the media to pummel Dean and the DNC. It is getting very personal now.

I am so disapointed in Kathy Castor. Dean came and campaigned with her mother and she is spreading anger at the DNC.

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wusf/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1141528§ionID=1

"TAMPA (2007-09-03) Florida Democrats are staying united and resilient despite national pressure to change the state's January 29th primary. Tampa Democrat Patrick Manteiga, publisher of the La Gaceta newspaper, is bristling at how the national party and presidential candidates are treating Florida.

The Democratic National Committee is threatening to deny Florida convention delegates. And the Democratic presidential candidates are refusing to campaign in the state.

It makes you mad, says Manteiga. It makes you understand that this party sometimes gets lost and that it's the people at the bottom that make it.

Tampa Congresswoman Kathy Castor says the political escapades are obscuring real issues like affordable health care. She says Florida Democrats should send DNC Chairman Howard Dean a message and have a huge turnout for the January 29th Presidential Primary."

[zulchzulu]

108. Jeremy Ring looks like a Brownback fan anyway...

Jeremy Ring wanted to mess with the rules. Jeremy Ring gets what he deserves. Irrelevancy.

[plusfiftyfive]

109. Personally, after the 2000 election I think we might just want to

Give Florida back to Spain!

[D-Sooner]

110. If Florida goes first

even if their delegates aren't counted, they will still have a significant impact. Whoever wins will be the new frontrunner.

[madfloridian]

111. Breaking rules and being a bully always makes a winner.

They are puffed up with self importance, and do not care about the other states.

Oh, but you ought to see how Michigan is acting.

It will be a contest of firstie bullies.

[madfloridian]

113. Guess what? John Edwards just got unendorsed by Steve Geller

"I do not intend to support any candidate in Florida that won't campaign here in Florida," said Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller of Hallandale Beach, who said he's canceling plans to endorse John Edwards next week."

http://flapolitics.blogspot.com/

Scroll down about a third of the way.

Geller is the one who joked about his amendment on the Senate floor, and as much as said don't vote for it. Just said they wanted to have something to show the DNC later. ooops Geller.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

[dugggy]

115. Barack Hussein Obama is the GOP's dream candidate

A black man with muslim father and Hussein for
middle name? Karl Rove's wet dream!

[OzarkDem]

118. Is the GOP behind this?

FDP actions do appear irrational in this mess and attacking Howard Dean is just pure BS. Given so many FDP leaders have such close ties to the GOP is it reasonable to make this assumption?