I have a great idea.... Let's sacrifice the best chance, some might say last chance

[WCGreen]

we have for meaningful health care reform, raising the minimum wage, environmental protection not dictated by industry hacks, real energy saving legislation and a host of other items that will be important over the next few years and really, for the future of not only our economy and well being, but for the very future of this country...

I say let's go for it...

Punish all those damn democrats who aren't moving fast enough on impeachment...

Well show them we mean business by storming the gates of congress so we can impeach bush...

When he is out of office...

[murielm99]

1. Kick

:kick:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. k&r

[katsy]

3. k/r

[PassingFair]

4. I have a better idea.

Let's DO NOTHING.

While war ships amass.

While Iran trembles.

While America bankrupts.

While we keep our powder dry.

Yeah. Great thought.

[WCGreen]

8. They sure as hell tried today....

With the deployment issue...

If they couldn't even get that passed, what makes you think they will be able to get Impeachment proceedings even started...

[PassingFair]

11. Getting the dems on THE SAME PAGE would be a START.

Rounding up the NELSONS and the rest of the
DLC scoundrels a GOOD START.

How are we going to get the 'pukes over the
fence, when we can't get our OWN BLUE DOGS
in the door?

[WCGreen]

13. What dem voted against the deployment amendment...

[MGKrebs]

18. ;Impeachment proceedings HAVE started.

What do you think all these investigations and hearings are about? They are bringing as much stuff to light as they can in order to make it practically impossible for any Reps to avoid the facts staring us all in the face.

Having said that, I am distressed that it took the Washington Post to find out that the FBI had told Gonzales about problems with the PATRIOT Act before he testified, which he denied. With the power that the judiciary committee has, how could they not have that information available at the time of the testimony? If they were going to ask that question of Gonzales, how could they not have asked the FBI in advance so that they would know if he was lying? Pisses me off. They need to get their act together if this stuff is going to go anywhere.

[WCGreen]

26. Because the people who would have to tell the Congress

about high crimes and misdemeanors would have to do so on the record...

But to leak something to the press, well, that's a completely different story...

And I do believe, as you point out, that the proceedings are going ahead as we speak...

All these investigations are bound to lead somewhere...

It took two years to get Nixon...

[demgirlamerica]

5. bush

isnt it better for him to remain in office? he helps democrats in 08.

[kenfrequed]

47. No

That sort of thinking actually helps republicans by legitimizing all that bush has done. This sort of live/let live mentalitiy convinced Clinton to scale back and halt investigations into Papa Bush and his criminality in BCCI, Iran Contra, and Promis/Inslaw. Playing nice and being bipartisan never worked. It let criminals go and and keep doing criminal deeds. And of course most of these crimes of Bush 41 would not have been possible if Watergate, CREEP, nad the Nixon dirty tricksters had been properly and legally punished.

If you want me to talk about it tactically the very best thing that could be going on for the democrats is to be dragging the Bushites and Cheneyists before hearings to try to ascertain criminality (which is all but assured). Imagine that coinciding with campaign news. Every Democrat seeking reelection being able to stand up during a campaign stump and talk about how they are working to bring law and order (No I mean ACTUAL Law and Order mr. Thompson) to government. And for those running for re-puke seats the best thing they could possibly do is tar them with the Bush-brush. So impeachment is good here to.

Beyond the obviously criminal and the political we have a greater debt to our deomcratic form of government. The real argument for doing this is that if we do nothing then the creep of executive privelage and power is going to destroy the republic. The attack on Habeus Corpus, the shredding of the constitution and our civil liberties, the damnable lies and propeganda that makes the old Soviet Pravda look silly, the movement towards unending war.

When asked, after the constitution was hammered out in 1787, about the nature of the government we have, Franklin responded something to the extent of "A republic if you can keep it."

[Perry Logan]

6. "Screaming at your fighter to knock the other guy out will not help in a close match..."

Here's my point of view, in an excellent comment I found at ThinkProgress:

"Stop blaming the Dems for inaction in Congress. The Dems have a numerical majority - not a "working" majority - due to the slim majority they hold in the Senate, they are tied up in procedural red tape. To blame them for inaction is to play into the hands of the Neocon thugs. Focus your anger on your Republic Congresspersons (if you are represented by such). Screaming at your fighter to knock the other guy out will not help in a close match - it will only frustrate your boxer.

"Focus your energy on defeating those supporting the Fascist Cabal."
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/11/thinkfast-july-11-2007/#commen...

[WCGreen]

7. That's exactly the point that people don't get...

We don't have enough of a majority to deal just yet...

I believe Impeachment should be on the table...

But only when enough Republicans join in...

[PassingFair]

9. No Republicans WILL join in if we don't get some momentum going.

If our leaders won't LEAD, the people won't
provide the impetus necessary to propel the
'pukes over the aisle.

[WCGreen]

10. The only reason Impeachment worked on Clinton was that

several democrats jumped ship in the House and voted for Impeachment knowing full well the Senate would never convict...

If e don't have any republicans in the House, what makes you think we can get the ones in the Senate to actually convict Bush...

[PassingFair]

12. Worry about "conviction" later.

The THREAT M-U-S-T be made NOW.

[WCGreen]

14. Look, if it's viewed as a partisan witch hunt by the public at large...

They will crucify the dem's in '08...

[PassingFair]

15. The public at large...

are on the verge of losing their homes.

They are on the brink of becoming complicit
in attacking ANOTHER country in the Middle East.

This will NOT be viewed as a "partisan witch hunt".

The "do-nothings" would like the situation to be characterized
this way.

They always do.

[WCGreen]

24. BTW, I am not against Impeachment...

I am against people foolishly saying they will run against an incumbent based on the fact that Bush and or Chaney haven't been Impeached yet...

[PassingFair]

27. Not that they haven't been impeached "yet".

That it was "taken off the table".

There's a BIG difference.

[WCGreen]

30. Did you ever consider that Pelosi and co. stated that for a reason...

Don't you think it would look better if Pelosi says that she is going forward with Impeachment because the People Demand it....

Perhaps they wanted to see if there was any chance of bipartisan cooperation in the air...

There wasn't then, so watch what happens now...

[PassingFair]

31. She sets the table; OR

we're going for a PICNIC.

Simple.

[robinlynne]

36. I dont know why she said it. But I agree that we the people NEED TO DEMAND IT.

one senator at a time, one congressperson at a time. one neighbor at a time. When we ask our reps for action, it is good for the reps. It gives them the cover under which to operate. When the people want impeachment and that is said over and over and over again, Pelosi will hear us.

[MGKrebs]

41. "Off the table" was spoken in October. BEFORE the election.

She didn't say "off the table FOREVER".
I am confident that it was felt that it was not a proper issue to run on. I am equally confident that if and when enough Representatives can be convinced to support it so that it wouldn't be a total embarrassment to Dems, that it will proceed.

They ARE having investigations.
They ARE gaining new supporters.
They ARE building a case.
In fact, they ARE winning. It's just not done yet.

It's very annoying all these people who say they are doing nothing. Nadler, Conyers, Leahy, Reid, they're in the press everyday with new evidence of misdeeds, announcements of new investigations, pushing things to the next level. This is how the system works. We should be careful of what we wish for, because making this stuff too easy is very dangerous. Do we want to continue the same Repub strongarm tactics and spiral ever downward until we reach a level like post WWII Italy, or several South American countries where the government constantly changes hands because they are so fractured nothing gets done? Or do we want to try to right the ship and follow the rule of law and embark on a course of stability and justice?

[LanternWaste]

33. As much as I'd like to see it actually happen,

As much as I'd like to see it actually happen, I'm of the opinion it *will* be perceived as a witch hunt, and a partisan hit job. With the exception of progressives in this country, I can't see how how it would be seen as anything else.

[PassingFair]

35. I am of the opinion that it *will not*

Public sentiment is FAR AHEAD of impeachment for Bush
than it was for Clinton.

People are DYING for leadership.

Literally.

[PBass]

39. "Witch Hunt" implies there is no factual justification for prosecution.

There is definite justification for impeachment procedings begin. (Impeachment meaning indictment).

Also, basing your actions on public support is not always a good way to lead. If it was, it would imply that the Democrats who voted to give Bush war powers were doing the right thing, because Bush had a lot of public support at the time. In fact, the public was behind the curve on Iraq at the time, and that vote was a huge mistake.

[LanternWaste]

43. I'm not saying whether it's good politics or not

I'm not saying whether it's good politics or not, or what the consequences of it would be. I'm simply saying that I believe if impeachment proceedings actually do become reality, the vast majority of the people in the U.S. would see it as a witch hunt.

The people of this country need little to no factual basis to believe a well-crafted, 30-second spot played on all the major channels four times a week. All they need is that 30-second spot and to hell with any factual basis.

[PBass]

45. I guess we disagree on public perception then...

With Bush's approval ratings hovering at 30% or below, and Cheney in the teens, I have to believe the public would be very receptive to an investigation of Cheney.

[MGKrebs]

48. But it doesn't matter anyway.

It's the Representatives who have to vote, and there's apparently only about 12 of them right now, all Democrats, willing to do it. We're getting there.


As a wise person once said, "basing your actions on public support is not always a good way to lead."

[defendandprotect]

49. Clinton's penis impeachment wasn't a Witchhunt???????

We need to get the CRIMES of this administration on record --
****************************************************************

repeat . . . CRIMES -- CRIMES -- CRIMES -- CRIMES

[DearAbby]

61. Bush's support numbers are in the toilet...

The Majority is going to think it is what? A witch hunt? you're kidding right?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

16. K&R

[PBass]

17. Nothing more cynical than conducting yourself solely based on an upcoming election

What about doing something because it's the "right thing to do"? Isn't that the way moral people conduct themselves?

Doing nothing on impeachment will only encourage future presidents to break the law: "But Bush did it, too!" will be their answer.

Voters may be against partisan witch hunts (which impeachment is not, BTW... a witch hunt implies "no basis"). But even more than that, voters are against elected officials who DO NOTHING when it's time for them to act.

[WCGreen]

22. I am not basing it entirely on the upcoming election..

But I am adding a healthy dose of realism into the situatiuon...

I do believe the people elected the democrats not to Impeach, although that would be a okay by me, but to do something to get us out of the war...

And today, a little more than half of a year since they were sworn in, which, btw, is moments when considering historical perspective, the first real salvo in that debate was fired and that shot was clearly heard throughout congress...

[PBass]

29. How many voters in 1972 were motivated by impeachment, at the polls?

How about 1996?

This thread makes an assumption which is simply not grounded in facts: Since most voters weren't motivated by impeachment in 2006, that going forward with impeachment in 2007 or 2008 is a big mistake.

This is your own assumption, or perhaps projection is a better term.

You also assume that impeachment leads to negative fallout at the following election. That was also not the case with Clinton or Nixon. The GOP benefitted from going after Clinton, IMO. They certainly did not lose anything at the polls. Likewise, with the Democrats post-Nixon/Ford.

Anyway, lets not be so "practical" that we fail to do the right thing. Protecting the Constitution is the right thing to do.

[WCGreen]

37. I don't see any poll numbers that clearly state the people

voted for the democrats to Impeach Bush...

It wasn't there...

To stop the war, yes...

To Impeach Bush, no...

If you actually read what I said, I was talking about people running against democrats just because we haven't Impeached Bush yet...

I am clearly for Impeachment...

As I have stated many times...

But only when we can make a clear case to the American Public...

There was a Gallup Poll a few days ago that said 52% of the people would support Impeachment if it could be proved that Bush went ahead with wiretapping American Citizens without a Judges order...

And that is exactly what they are doing now with all the committee hearings and congressional investigations...

[FiveGoodMen]

19. If we don't stop the corruption of our government

anything and everything that gets written into law can be ignored or undone by Bush (or others just like him).

This is a time to keep our priorities sorted.

[PassingFair]

20. In fact, it is WELL past time.

The fact that Cheney tells Congress to
*UCK OFF should be a CLUE as to what
lengths these psychopaths will go to
to retain their power.

Waiting for them to hang themselves
with their own rope just guarantees
that we trip and fall over the tremendous
lengths of it that they leave in their wake.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

21. Or, instead...

That we hang ourselves instead.....

Send in the clowns...

[WCGreen]

23. You know Peg, I understand the passion...

But I also know about the realities of politics...

In order to Impeach a president, successfully, both passion and reason have to converge or else it will fail...

[PassingFair]

25. Would you consider the impeachment of Clinton a "failure"? n/t

[WCGreen]

28. It's not a valid comparison

The people saw that it was all partisan bullshit...

I think the democrats are better than that...

We will get him for real, look at all the investigations going on right now...

Just give it some time...

And they are valid in truth and, perhaps more important because we are talking about politics here, justifiable in the public's view...

[CaliforniaPeggy]

32. It does appear to me that...

Passion and reason are indeed converging...

As you say, we need both...

[PassingFair]

34. If we let the republicans take these neocons out themselves, we LOSE for SO LONG...

we will forget there ever WAS a party called the Democrats.

We will go the way of the Whigs.

[WCGreen]

38. Man I feel so bad for you that you are so pessimistic...

Have some faith, man...

Just watch what happens over the next few months...

The Dems are clearly stating their intentions every day with the hearings and investigations...

[PassingFair]

40. You feel bad for me?

I feel bad for THIS guy.

I don't want it to happen to the Iranians, too.

Or the Syrians.

Or people from Vermont who get in Cheney's way.

We have "watched what happens" for YEARS now.

The pressure must come from the people, and our
representatives must be responsive.

[WCGreen]

42. And it clearly isn't there yet...

Watch what happens down the road...

The problem with Democrats, as I see it, is they respect the Constitution much more than republicans do...

[PassingFair]

44. We agree on THAT!

The problem with THIS particular CROP of DEMOCRATS
is that they are not willing to DEFEND said Constitution.

They are waiting for the republicans to finish wiping their
asses with it before handing it back to the nation.

[WCGreen]

46. The Constitution is the rule book...

And the investigations are going on to see if any rules were broken...

And then comes Impeachment...

[PassingFair]

50. Barbara Boxer is calling for Impeachment....

Is she "pushing the envelope"?

snip>

A Senator Speaks Up
Submitted by davidswanson on Wed, 2007-07-11 19:52. Congress | Impeachment

Barbara Boxer: "Impeachment should be on the table" - Ed Schultz Show 7/11/07

She was the only Senator who cared to examine the credibility of the election results in Ohio. She is the only Senator willing to stand with 54 percent of Americans for the rule of law now. What would we do without Barbara Boxer?

[WCGreen]

51. I never said that seaking Impeachment was "Pushing the Envelpe"..

I talk enough, thank you, without others puting words in my mouth...

I think it's great that Ms. Boxer is calling for Impeachment...

But you notice, she waited until there was evidence, after there had been some hearings, six and a half months after the new legislative session started...

And as I have said since a few weeks ago, I am all for Impeachment...

But I want it to stick...

Not just be an exercise in partisan bullshit...

[PassingFair]

52. I am totally confused. Your point eludes me.

"I say let's go for it...

Punish all those damn democrats who aren't moving fast enough on impeachment...

Well show them we mean business by storming the gates of congress so we can impeach bush..."

:shrug:

I back those in Congress who want to impeach Bush.
I back those in Congress who want to end the war.

I bet we are in agreement.

I think our message needs to be strong and unequivocal.
I think Levin has been pussyfooting around.
I think Feingold's strategy should have been followed from the start.
I think hundreds of thousands of lives have been
WASTED while we "waited for them to hang themselves".

[WCGreen]

53. Why are you still confused...

I am for Impeachment...

But with the support of the people...

Just be patient...

It will happen sooner than you think...

The hearings, listen to the hearings...

If you want to storm Congress and look like those thug republicans that shouted down the recount in Dade County, be my guest...

Then we shall meet the new boss... Same as the old Boss...

I want the adults back in charge...

[PassingFair]

54. Storm Congress?

I am NOT taking up arms.

I AM advocating impeachment. Cheney first.
I AM e-mailing.
I AM writing letters.
I AM attending local dem meetings.
I AM hectoring my Levins and my Stabenow.

I am NOT being "patient".

On Edit and By the Way:

Those 'pukes who waved their fists in Dade County
EFFECTIVELY STOLE the PRESIDENCY.

We have been in THRALL for the past 7 years
because we were patient little sheep and stayed
in line. Now over HALF A MILLION Iraqi's are DEAD.

This did not happen by accident. It was ALLOWED to
happen because we did nothing to stop it.

[WCGreen]

55. Well, your doing all yuo or anyone else really can...

Just watch what happens over the next few weeks or months...

[PassingFair]

56. I'll keep agitating!

If you keep watching!

We're both cheering for the same outcome.

[WCGreen]

57. Good deal...

My congressman is DK anyway so I really don't have the chance to even lobby anyone anyway...

He freakin' introduced the thing...

[PassingFair]

58. Well there you go!

If the Kuch was working MY district,
I'd be kickin back a bit and cheering him
on myself!

:hi:

[More Than A Feeling]

59. I've got an idea, let's make the constitution completely meaningless!

That's what it will be if politicians are too scared to enforce it.

[ClassWarrior]

60. Yes, ending torture, domestic spying, and a meat grinder of an occupation...

...aren't NEARLY as important as all those other things which will be gutted anyway by the next Rape-Publican criminal to ascend to the "unitary dictatorship."

NGU.