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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 06:26 PM
Original message
Thoughts on health care reform
From my blog "One Little Victory"

Say "Ahhhhh"

Today's Topic: Health care in the United States of America

WARNING: THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG POST

This is probably the most vexing issue in the U.S. today,
though special interests and conservative paranoids have made
this issue far more complicated than it really is. As you can
probably surmise, I went to see Michael Moore's
"Sicko" the other night and, love him or hate him,
the man made some good points. But as opposed to having this
post be a debate over Michael Moore's views, we're instead
going to look at why I have reached the conclusion that I
have.

Two assumptions I am utilizing for the purpose of this
article:

1) How we treat our least fortunate in the United States says
a great deal about our values as a society.

2) Neither capitalism nor socialism is good nor evil left unto
itself. Rather, it is how the concepts are applied. It is my
sincere view that we as a nation have taken capitalism to a
very unhealthy place, allowing the most successful capitalists
to become more successful at the cost of others. This, to me,
is where the line must be drawn, and where socialist concepts
must be applied.

Politics have supported the status quo and reduced the quality
of health care in the United States. Our infant mortality rate
has risen fairly dramatically since 32nd ranked infant
mortality in the developed world (second worst). Our life span
has fallen off compared to the rest of the industrialized
world, as has our average height.

We are the most "powerful" nation on earth, and we
are happy with one of the worst health care systems in the
industrialized world?

Let's take a look at some of Moore's claims from
"Sicko" and juxtapose them to the fact-checking done
by CNN. For the purpose of this article, I will take CNN's
word over that over the self-appointed MTV health expert Kurt
Loder. Loder is one of the science-denying idiots still trying
to run around "debunking" Al Gore's An Inconvenient
Truth. Let's just say that if you get your news from Loder,
you could be doing a tad bit better. Frankly, who gives a
rat's ass what that pinhead thinks?

So back to Moore's claims:

1) Out of 50 million uninsured people in the U.S., roughly
18,000 will die each year due to being uninsured.

    CNN Response:

    For the most part, that's true. The latest numbers from
the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention say 43.6
million, or about 15 percent of Americans, were uninsured in
2006. For the past five years, the overall count has
fluctuated between 41 million and 44 million people. According
to the Institute of Medicine, 18,000 people do die each year
mainly because they are less likely to receive screening and
preventive care for chronic diseases.

2) The United States spends more of its gross domestic product
on health care than any other nation.

    CNN Response:

    Again, that's true. The United States spends more than 15
percent of its GDP on health care -- no other nation even
comes close to that number. France spends about 11 percent,
and Canadians spend 10 percent.

    Like Moore, we also found that more money does not equal
better care. Both the French and Canadian systems rank in the
Top 10 of the world's best health-care systems, according to
the World Health Organization. The United States comes in at
No. 37. The rankings are based on general health of the
population, access, patient satisfaction and how the care's
paid for.

    So, if Americans are paying so much and they're not
getting as good or as much care, where is all the money going?
"Overhead for most private health insurance plans range
between 10 percent to 30 percent," says Deloitte
health-care analyst Paul Keckley. Overhead includes profit and
administrative costs.

    "Compare that to Medicare, which only has an overhead
rate of 1 percent. Medicare is an extremely efficient
health-care delivery system," says Mark Meaney, a
health-care ethicist for the National Institute for Patient
Rights.

3) Moore shows patients in Canada, Great Britain, France and
Cuba all waiting patiently for health care that they easy and
free access to.

    CNN Response:

    Not as simple as it looks in the movie.

    In most other countries, there are quotas and planned
waiting times. Everyone does have access to basic levels of
care. That care plan is formulated by teams of government
physicians and officials who determine what's to be included
in the universal basic coverage and how a specific condition
is treated. If you want treatment outside of that standard
plan, then you have to pay for it yourself.

    "In most developed health systems in the world, 15
percent to 20 percent of the population buys medical services
outside of the system of care run by the government. They do
it through supplemental insurance, or they buy services out of
pocket," Keckley says.

    The people who pay more tend to be in the upper income or
have special, more complicated conditions. 

In the movie, Moore focused exclusively on people who did have
health insurance, shining light on the dirty tactics that
insurance companies. While Loder is quick to dismiss those as
dreadful exceptions, upon whose word are we to believe that
these are exceptions? Even people in the industry were more
than willing to talk to Moore about the unethical and immoral
behavior taking place.
So while most people agree that our system needs to change,
there is sharp disagreement over whether this should be done
privately or through the government.

In order to present the discussion in a more (relatively)
neutral spotlight, I found this article from About.com.

    What is Universal Health Care?
    From Bobbie Sage,
    Your Guide to Personal Insurance.

    Universal Health Care Gains Popularity

    Universal health care gained popularity with former
President Bill Clinton. Although President Clinton's proposal
is looked at as a large failure, it did start the universal
health care ball rolling and got many in America thinking
about a united health care plan. Ever since President
Clinton's proposal, the debate on a united and universal
health care system for the U.S.A. has continued to be weaved
into election topics as a proposed cure to the United States
health care crisis, which estimates have said leaves 41-50
million people in America without health insurance.

    What is it?

    Universal health care or also commonly known as a
singe-payer system, united health care system, or national
health care, would be similar to the current U.S. Medicaid
health care program for low-income peoples but would apply to
all citizens of the U.S. regardless of ability to pay.

    Who else does this?

    Many countries have a united or national health care
system, and all industrialized countries except for the U.S.,
have some sort of single-payer universal health care system.
Most notably Canada and the UK have coverage under this type
of united health care.

    Sounds great! How come we don't have a national health
care system in the U.S.?

    There is no right formula for a united universal or
national health care system. All countries have different ways
of accomplishing the task of insuring every citizen in their
country. How to accomplish a national health care single-payer
system in America and if it would be better and more
cost-effective than our current system are the main debate
areas for universal or national health care in the U.S. There
are many advantages and disadvantages to a single-payer health
care system in the U.S.

    Advantages:

    Every citizen would be covered under a national united
health care system and administrative costs could be
drastically reduced. According to the article Make Healthcare
a Right. It's Cheaper! by By John R. Battista, M.D. and
Justine A. McCabe, Ph.D., studies have shown that with a
publicly administered system health care costs would have been
reduced in Connecticut by two billion dollars in 1999 by the
reduction of administrative costs along with other different
medical buying techniques such as buying medications in bulk.

    Disadvantages:

    Income taxes would increase and private insurance
companies may be put out of the health care administrative
business. Not to mention many Americans are worried it is just
another route to socialism so therefore taking away private
health care is un-American.

    Most would not argue that basic health care should be an
available human right to all Americans and most would also
agree that our current system is not working and we should all
get united on health care in the U.S. The universal national
health care debate will be with our society for an inevitable
amount of time, or at least until healthcare is available to
more Americans, so expect this to be a topic for politicians
in many future elections.

So let's look at some of the points from this article.

1) Every citizen would be covered and administrative overhead
would be dramatically reduced.

Response: And I can hear the conservatives saying, "why
should I have to pay for someone else's health care"?
Answer: Because that's what society does for the worse off. We
take care of each other, knowing that we will be taken care of
if and when the time comes. Pure capitalism lacks compassion -
compassion must exist in society for that society not to
become evil. And for all we have grumbled over the years about
the Soviet Union and China, and more recently Iraq and Iran,
we are the ones looking pretty evil around the globe, and for
good reason.

2) Income taxes would increase.

Response: Yep, and I don't mind paying my taxes when I know
that they are being used responsibly. During the Clinton
administration, my taxes not only funded domestic, foreign and
military budgets, but also helped get rid of the deficit.
Under the Bush administration, I am pretty sure most of my
taxes are sitting in the Middle East - and they don't belong
there. And remember, while taxes would go up, out of pocket
expenses would be nearly eliminated.

3) Private insurance companies may be put out of the health
care administrative business.

Response: Boo hoo. The goal of private insurance companies is
to make money - that is at odds with providing quality health
care to all people that need it. It is a question of values -
are we worried about our people or about the insurance
companies? There is a reason that insurance companies have
expanded into the financial services industry - providing
insurance to society is an untenable means of doing business.
Twenty to thirty years from now I can see this entire industry
being either regulated or government controlled, particularly
after debacles such as Katrina. There is a role for private
insurance, but that role should be limited and tightly
regulated.

4) Universal health care is a path to socialism.

Response: Yep, just like in France, Great Britain, and all of
western Europe. I don't see "Commies" taking over
the world, as I am pretty sure the collapse of the Soviet
Union proved the fallacies of communism. But our society is
now failing as well - it's a question of whether you choose to
remain in denial about this and whether or not you are able to
keep an open mind about what is best for everyone. Try
thinking outside of yourself.

There are two other items from the movie worthy of some
attention. First, a highly interesting interview with a former
British government official, who succinctly distinguished
between American and European societies. European governments,
he pointed out, are afraid of their people and thus do what is
in the best interest of the people. In America however, the
people are afraid of the government, thus leaving the
government free to do what is in the best interest of the
government. On many levels, we have become the Redcoats that
we rebelled against.

The most disturbing and revealing scene of Moore's movie
served as support to this point. There is a tape of Nixon
speaking (on February 17, 1971) with aide John Ehrlichman. The
conversation was as follows:

    John D. Ehrlichman: “On the … on the health business …”

    President Nixon: “Yeah.”

    Ehrlichman: “… we have now narrowed down the vice
president’s problems on this thing to one issue and that is
whether we should include these health maintenance
organizations like Edgar Kaiser’s Permanente thing. The vice
president just cannot see it. We tried 15 ways from Friday to
explain it to him and then help him to understand it. He
finally says, ‘Well, I don’t think they’ll work, but if the
President thinks it’s a good idea, I’ll support him a hundred
percent.’”

    President Nixon: “Well, what’s … what’s the judgment?”

    Ehrlichman: “Well, everybody else’s judgment very strongly
is that we go with it.”

    President Nixon: “All right.”

    Ehrlichman: “And, uh, uh, he’s the one holdout that we
have in the whole office.”

    President Nixon: “Say that I … I … I’d tell him I have
doubts about it, but I think that it’s, uh, now let me ask
you, now you give me your judgment. You know I’m not to keen
on any of these damn medical programs.”

    Ehrlichman: “This, uh, let me, let me tell you how I am …”

    President Nixon: [Unclear.]

    Ehrlichman: “This … this is a …”

    President Nixon: “I don’t [unclear] …”

    Ehrlichman: “… private enterprise one.”

    President Nixon: “Well, that appeals to me.”

    Ehrlichman: “Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal
for profit. And the reason that he can … the reason he can do
it … I had Edgar Kaiser come in … talk to me about this and I
went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less
medical care, because …”

    President Nixon: [Unclear.]

    Ehrlichman: “… the less care they give them, the more
money they make.”

    President Nixon: “Fine.” [Unclear.]

    Ehrlichman: [Unclear] “… and the incentives run the right
way.”

    President Nixon: “Not bad.”

Trust me when I say that the "not bad" by Nixon was
damn near gleeful.

The next day, Nixon publicly announced he would be pushing
legislation that would provide Americans "the finest
health care in the world."

Finally, I have had friends raise the issue of cost, and what
such a program would do to our nation. Let's put some context
on this.

Let's take Hillary Clinton's health care proposal, estimated
to cost between $90 and $120 billion dollars annually. Just
for giggles, let's assume that the cost will be on the high
side, let's say $150 billion per year.

Let's put $150 billion into context:

    * The cost of war in Iraq is estimated at around $2
trillion so far, or about $500 billion per year.

    * We give Israel between $6 and $10 billion in foreign aid
each year.

    * We give annual subsidies exceeding $1.5 billion to big
oil companies, and fail to collect billions more in taxes each
year.

    * The Bush tax cuts for the rich will total $477 billion
between 2001 and 2010.

Sounds like we have the money. We simply lack the political
will and the moral character to make it happen.

Michael Moore has a simple and effective plan for resolving
the health care crisis in America:

    1. Every resident of the United States must have free,
universal health care for life.

    2. All health insurance companies must be abolished.

    3. Pharmaceutical companies must be strictly regulated
like a public utility.

Sounds too simple, but it works. I would amend #2 to provide
for supplemental insurance for those exceeding the benefits of
the system, but this would need to be tightly regulated.

By the way, this movie opens with one of my favorite
"Bushisms":

    GEORGE BUSH: We got an issue in America. Too many good
docs are getting out of business. Too many ob-gyns aren't able
to practice their love with women all over this country.

Well Dubya, the docs in Britain are making the equivalent of
$200 K a year. Not enough for people like Dubya perhaps, but
enough to "get by".

See the movie.

------A couple of additional thoughts since I wrote this a few
hours ago:

Addendum #1:

The scare tactic of the Republicans is that universal health
care will mean that a bureaucrat will be responsible for
determining what care you will receive. Well, surprise! That
is already happening with private health insurance. As a
matter of fact, the movie demonstrated well the incentives
given to doctors and administrators for advocating less or
even no care. One such person testified that she knew she had
signed one man's death warrant, but knew that the cost savings
would be rewarded by her employer. Conversely, doctors in
Great Britain are given pay incentives for how healthy their
patients become, how much weight they lose, whether or not
they quit smoking, etc. THIS IS A SCARE TACTIC OF THE
CONSERVATIVES AND NOTHING MORE!

Addendum #2:

The good "Dr." Loder was incensed that one French
patient was allowed to vacation on taxpayer dollars in order
to recuperate. Now I initially thought this was (at least) a
bit unusual, but then I thought.... the French work less than
we do (35 hours a week) and get more vacation time, yet are
also more productive workers than Americans. They are also
healthier. This leads me to a simple conclusion; treat workers
like crap and they perform like crap and won't feel good about
themselves doing it. Treat people well and they will perform
well... they will also be able to keep work in perspective,
not let it dominate them and thus be more productive while
they are working. That's a pretty easy choice to me.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
Addendum to Addendum #2: And they are healthier and therefore less costly to their employers or their national health system.


We could have that too:

http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm

Brief Summary of HR 676

· The United States National Health Insurance Act establishes an American national health insurance program. The bill would create a publicly financed, privately delivered health care system that uses the already existing Medicare program by expanding and improving it to all U.S. residents, and all residents living in U.S. territories. The goal of the legislation is to ensure that all Americans will have access, guaranteed by law, to the highest quality and most cost effective health care services regardless of their employment, income, or health status.

· With over 45-75 million uninsured Americans, and another 50 million who are under- insured, the time has come to change our inefficient and costly fragmented non health care system.

Who is Eligible

· Every person living in or visiting the United States and the U.S. Territories would receive a United States National Health Insurance Card and ID number once they enroll at the appropriate location. Social Security numbers may not be used when assigning ID cards.

Health Care Services Covered

· This program will cover all medically necessary services, including primary care, in patient care, outpatient care, emergency care, prescription drugs, durable medical equipment, long term care, mental health services, dentistry, eye care, chiropractic, and substance abuse treatment. Patients have their choice of physicians, providers, hospitals, clinics and practices. No co-pays or deductibles are permitted under this act.

Conversion To A Non-Profit Health Care System

· Private health insurers shall be prohibited under this act from selling coverage that duplicates the benefits of the USNHI program. Exceptions to this rule include coverage for cosmetic surgery, and other medically unnecessary treatments. Those who are displaced as the result of the transition to a non- profit health care system are the first to be hired and retrained under this act.

Cost Containment Provisions/ Reimbursement

· The National USNHI program will set reimbursement rates annually for physicians, allow for "global budgets" (annual lump sums for operating expenses) for health care providers; and negotiate prescription drug prices. The national office will provide an annual lump sum allotment to each existing Medicare region; each region will administer the program.
· The conversion to a not-for-profit health care system will take place over a 15 year period. U.S. treasury bonds will be sold to compensate investor-owned providers for the actual appraised value of converted facilities used in the delivery of care; payment will not be made for loss of business profits. Health insurance companies could be sub-contracted out to handle reimbursements.

Proposed Funding For USNHI Program:

· Maintaining current federal and state funding of existing health care programs. A modest payroll tax on all employers of 3.3%. A 5% health tax on the top 5% of income earners. A small tax on stock and bond transfers. Closing corporate tax loop-holes, repealing the Bush tax cut.

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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. All I know is 93% of Canadians WANT TO KEEP our health care system!
Nothing more need be said. All the scare tactics and false claims by the right wingers are just that....SCARE TACTICS AND FALSE CLAIMS!
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barack4prez Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. Why is the
single payer system better than simply providing a health insurance plan for those who cannot otherwise afford health care, and, except for that, keeping the current system intact?
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Answer
Because the current system is predicated on NOT providing service. Doctors do not run this process in any way... health care insurance execs do... the incentive is to save money rather than provide care. The current system does not work even for many people with health insurance.
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barack4prez Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. That has
not been my experience. Do most people who are insured want to dump the current system? I'm sure there's a poll out there somewhere.
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Re:
It has not been my experience either, but that could change tomorrow.

The loopholes these companies use to get out of paying medical expenses is amazing. All it takes is one illness, one injury, and you are financially ruined...forever.

Many of us who are healthy and have "good" insurance think the system is fine. That's because we haven't truly tested it yet.
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barack4prez Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. The other thing that is unclear is
this: "Pharmaceutical companies must be strictly regulated like a public utility."
I don't want regulation to impede the motive to find new meds. No doubt meds cost too much, but I like the idea that a potential for big future profits motivates businesses to develop new medicine. I'm pretty grateful that the recently invented medicine I take is probably keeping me alive. Public utilities aren't in business to develop anything new--they are simply distributors of what already exists. I don't think the analogy works.
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. It may not be...
...a perfect analogy, but it is not my belief (personally) that regulation will stifle innovation. If anything, we will simply be in line with every other country that has such a plan. We wouldn't be breaking new ground here... we would simply be re-prioritizing our values... placing the welfare of people ahead of corporate profits.

I can live with that, even as a stockholder.
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barack4prez Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I don't know
I still prefer a national health policy for the uninsured and/or indigent. This has nothing to do with my taxes or anything else. Like others here have said, I'd be scared to dump a system that I know and that works for me for something that might be worse.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Over 80% of all drug research
is paid for by OUR TAX DOLLARS...

"impede the motive to find new meds"

This is the Big Lie from Big Pharma....
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
49. Pharmaceutical company research budgets are still just 40 percent of their marketing budgets.
The top ten pharmaceutical companies make more in profits than the rest of the Fortune 500 combined.

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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
48. Boy did you get THAT one right! I thought my HC was
just fine. I was healthy, only went to the Dr. once inthe last five years, and my copay was $20. I honestly wondered what all the moaning was all about.

THEN, last Sept. I broke my leg. By the time the ins paid what they claimed they were responsible for, and I got a bill from what seemed to be half the hospital staff (everyone bills you directly) my out of pocket expense was $3,500! Now, I'm not poor, but I also don't have $3,500 hanging around either! Our total family income is $27,000 a year, and my husband will be retiring in 1 1/2 years so we'll be on a fixed income of much less than that.

I can deal with the Dr. copays, but that damn 20% of an 80/20 plan can devastate you very quick!
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Great testimonial! n/t
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DesertKart Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Look at the satisfaction rating of each health care plan
They're usually from 60% to 90% satisfaction. People who buy their health care are in general very happy with their insurance plans. The idea that the government may take over my insurance effectively leaving me with no choice I purchase is a pretty scary idea. How will I as a consumer express my dissatisfaction with poor service?
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Good Question, DK
I don't get the impression that a government plan takes away health care options in terms of treatment. Yes, we have the highest satisfaction rate in terms of health care systems in the Western world. Is that satisfaction worth 50 million uninsured people, or worth giving the power of treatment approval to people whose motivation is to save money for the company? Read the conversation between Erlichmann and Nixon...it is very clear how this industry operates. The horror stories highlighted by Moore in sicko were among more than 30,000 such stories submitted by people with insurance. I can't imagine a system being more frightening than it is now.
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DesertKart Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Tennessee is a good example
Because the government doesn't need to make sound financial decisions it provides unfair competition to private insurance companies effectively destroying the private insurance market. Then with burgeoning coverage costs, rationing kicks in and pricing controls reduce the supply of doctors.

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2007/jun/10/socialized-medicine-is-wrong-for-state/
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. The insurance companies...
...have to be eliminated from the equation. As long as they are involved, they will put their financial interests ahead of health care. Just my opinion.
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DesertKart Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Why are those two things exclusive? I want competition for my health care dollar, otherwise I have
no way of voting with my dollar.
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fencesitter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-08-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #16
55. Competition?
I buy my own insurance here in PA and have searched hard, deep and long to find a competitive rate. The only plan I can afford is a high deductable with a 80/20 copay. If I get sick, I'll get stuck with a $7500. bill. Because of the deductable, if a doc sends me for tests, I'll pay the first $2000. Can I afford to get the tests? Health care costs are so high, there is no competition.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. Please, please, please
Edited on Sat Jul-07-07 08:28 PM by ProudDad
check your facts.

Even Faux "News" doesn't agree with you!!!

"Americans are more dissatisfied than citizens of other nations with their basic health care even while paying more of their own money for treatment, a five-nation survey released Thursday notes.

The study shows that people in the U.S. face longer wait times to see doctors and have more trouble getting care on evenings or weekends than do people in other industrialized countries. At the same time, Americans were more likely to receive advice on disease prevention and self-care than others.

One-third of Americans told pollsters that the U.S. health care system should be completely rebuilt, far more than residents of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, or the U.K. Just 16 percent of Americans said that the U.S. health care system needs only minor changes, the lowest number expressing approval among the countries surveyed."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html


How'zit goin' with your telephone company or your local gas station? You've been able to vote for lower gas prices with your "dollar"?

How about your TV cable company -- they keeping prices down for you -- Oh, yeah, you could go with their competition --- oooops, no real competitor...out of luck...they are all over-priced...

When's the last time you tried to express your dissatisfaction with your for-profit health insurance company?? ooops, their decisions are final and occasionally fatal...

Go see SiCKO then get back to us...ok? ok... :hi:

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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I really believe...
...that seeing "Sicko" is important to this discussion. Moore is not nearly as sensationalist in this film as he has been, and he has his facts in order. Yes, he skews them, but there is absolutely no excuse for the behaviors that insurance companies have engaged in... all in the name of protecting the bottom line. As someone with a GREAT health insurance plan (paid $50 for the delivery of a baby and $100 for a gall bladder operation), I do believe that if I or a family member developed something that would soar into the hundreds of thousands, our company would be looking for a way out. It's the nature of corporate America.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. Nixon was on board for universal and had insurance co approval of a HMO for profit system - until
impeachment coming down the road convinced the insurance companies they no longer had to compromise and they pulled out of the agreement - preferring no government involement in health insurance. In effect the insurance have twice told the President (Nixon - and then Clinton) that they were on board - and then showed that they are liars as they fight any system.
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Exactly why...
...the choice needs to be taken away from them.
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DesertKart Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. you mean away from me.
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Not at all...
The Canadians, British, and French all seem to do pretty darn well (i.e., better than us) in terms of health care and have plenty of care choices. I'm not quite certain what there is to be afraid of. If I have to choose between a government bureaucrat who is going to make $65K no matter what decisions are made versus a health care bureaucrat whose salary will be affected by how much money they save the company, I know which way I will lean.
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DesertKart Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. You obviously didn't read the link I posted
Otherwise you'd know what I meant when I said that.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. You obviously haven't seen SiCKO (n/t)
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. I did read it...
It's one state trying to work within the system.

The system is inherently flawed. Don't repair it... get rid of it and replace it with something that has worked in other nations and can be adapted for us.

The age old "fear cry" is that we shouldn't trust the government with such a thing... as though trusting private comapnies has been good for nation? The facts definitely do not support that thesis.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. That may be because the link you posted
is right-wing capitalist BULLSHIT...

"Paul S. Hsieh, MD, is a physician in practice in the south Denver metro region and he is a founding member of the Colorado group "Freedom and Individual Rights in Medicine"

Here's his fucking website:

http://www.westandfirm.org/

"Freedom and Individual Rights in Medicine (FIRM) promotes the philosophy of individual rights, personal responsibility, and free market economics in health care. FIRM holds that the only moral and practical way to obtain medical care is that of individuals choosing and paying for their own medical care in a capitalist free market."

TOTAL, UNMITIGATED BULLSHIT!!!! That idea hasn't worked here and has been abandoned by the CIVILIZED nations of the Earth...


Try again, desert -- FACTS, not right-wing bullshit!!!!
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DesertKart Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. So, you're saying that Tenncare wasn't a complete and total cluster?
Ad hominem attacks don't work. The facts remain.
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. It was a disaster...
...because they tried to work with the existing system.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Keep pitching those softballs
"TennCare was created in 1994 to replace Tennessee's original Medicaid program. TennCare provides healthcare services to 1.2 million Tennesseans through a network of (FOR PROFIT) CONTRACTED MANAGED CARE COMPANIES"

So your right-wing doctor friend calls TennCare a "cluster". Big F'in' deal...


You're new here so I'm going to give you a little piece of good advice. Right-wing propaganda will NOT WORK HERE. We prefer to remain in our "Fact Based" universe instead of the "Fantasy based hell hole" the right-wing crawls out from to spew their deadly venom.

Even the most "conservative" DU member would call you on that ridiculous link...


As for health care, HR 676 is NOT "Socialized" medicine so your friend, Dr. Hsieh, is blowing it out his ass...


Study up...

http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. What ad hominem?
Edited on Sat Jul-07-07 08:58 PM by ProudDad
If it walks like right-wing bullshit

If it talks like right-wing bullshit

If it smells like right-wing bullshit

It's probably right-wing bullshit.

FACT...

I read his article.

He cites no facts, no proof just his "opinion" that is countered by the actual experience of the rest of the industrialized WORLD.

Just a right-wing doctor trying to keep his millions pouring in...
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. I'm very happy for you
Edited on Sat Jul-07-07 08:31 PM by ProudDad
I'm so glad you have choice in health insurance. :grr:

I'm one of the lucky 47 Million who don't have a FUCKING CHOICE. I can't afford "health insurance" so I have to gut it out until I get old enough to join the U.S. Single-Payer health care system - Medicare...

You appear to have drunk the right-wing corporate kool-aid. That shit don't get much sympathy here...
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DesertKart Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. thanks. So you'd rather take money from me?
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. From my original post...
And I can hear the conservatives saying, "why should I have to pay for someone else's health care"?
Answer: Because that's what society does for the worse off. We take care of each other, knowing that we will be taken
care of if and when the time comes. Pure capitalism lacks compassion - compassion must exist in society for that
society not to become evil. And for all we have grumbled over the years about the Soviet Union and China, and more recently
Iraq and Iran, we are the ones looking pretty evil around the globe, and for good reason.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. If you have insurance
Edited on Sat Jul-07-07 08:41 PM by ProudDad
the for-profit health insurance Mafia is taking more money from you than a Single-Payer Universal system would.

FACT...

If you don't have insurance and still have this attitude then I say you should carefully examine your self-destructive attitudes....
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-08-07 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #28
52. Bush is currently taking money from you by funding the medical system for the poor - Medicaid - and
the other payments made to local governments so those local governments can subsidize the use of the hospital ER by those that can not or chose not to pay.

The sadly amusing point about your attitude toward saving yourself money by rejecting single payer is that you would save money with single payer (single payer France with a lower per person GDP than the US pays 11% of that GDP for better than US medical care - our 37th (WHO ranking) from the top medical care costing nearly 16% of US GDP (GDP is a measure of the total size of our economy - Gross Domestic Product).

So you pay 50% more - or your parents do - than they need to - and they in return the right to say we have 43 million uninsured and money for health care in this country only partially flows through the government so the insurance companies are able to waste/steal/deny care in the US for even basic care. Thank God there is no single payer to save them money - right?

In other countries care above basic care is not in the single payer system and that area above basic care is then the world of insurance companies who do quite well covering high end health needs.
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DesertKart Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. What does that have to do with this?
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. I don't meant to speak for Papau
Edited on Sat Jul-07-07 08:39 PM by ProudDad
but maybe "Even nixon was more advanced than your posts would lead us to believe you are"..
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
36. Tweet, tweet -- chirp chirp
Edited on Sat Jul-07-07 09:01 PM by ProudDad
It appears that desertkart has left the premises without contributing anything substantive to the discussion.

:shrug:


Damn, too easy...
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desertkart2 Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. It seems I was banned.
Edited on Sat Jul-07-07 09:15 PM by desertkart2
Apparently this isn't a place that accepts opinions that challenge the beliefs of the members here. Anyways, I'll let you all get back to patting yourselves on the back.

ProudDad, if I were you I'd worry less about stealing money from people like me and more about making better choices in your life. Get your kids some health insurance. It may be expensive, but your kids should be worth it.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. If you're still there
you would be a lot more comfortable here:

www.freerepublic.com

They'll be happy to have you pat yourself on the back in their dark, dark dungeon of dead ideas.

I can't afford "health insurance" and neither can my kids...so FUCK YOU VERY MUCH in your smug, selfish little universe...
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desertkart2 Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. No thanks, I can't stand the republicans. Believe it or not I'm not one of them.
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desertkart2 Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. No offense I figured I'd go out with a bang since I'm going to get banned
again anyways. Sorry about the jab on your kids it was uncalled for. Seriously though man, take a real look at what you're advocating. Socialized (pretty much anything) has and will always fail.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Why do you keep repeating that lie?
Edited on Sat Jul-07-07 09:35 PM by ProudDad
"Socialized (pretty much anything) has and will always fail"

Don't

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica

Exist in your world? They ALL have better outcomes than the U.S. and nearly ALL HAVE "socialist health care", if by socialist health care you mean government mandated universal coverage.

It's the corporate capitalist system in the U.S. that's failing us not some phantom called "socialism"...
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desertkart2 Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. That's what I mean.
I'm not totally evil though, I think that we should always take care of those who can't care for themselves of course. Just not anybody else.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-08-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #40
53. "Socialized (pretty much anything) has and will always fail."
Really? I know you're gone now, but this is for the other lurking nazis.

If "socialized pretty much anything fails", how do you explain:

- our socialized police force?

- our socialized fire department?

- our socialized library system?

- our socialized trash pickup?

- our socialized military?

- our socialized road building/repair system?

Typically, all nazi party members can do is repeat nazi talking points like the parrots that they are; they simply cannot think logically.


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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-08-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Well stated n/t
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desertkart2 Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. If you want to discuss politics in an open forum
you should come over to the my350z.com politics/war forums. You might find that you'll learn something there. We have the Michael Moore worshippers, the Bush lovers and a large group of Libertarians.

Or are you scared. ;-)
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Now you've contributed something I can agree with
Edited on Sat Jul-07-07 09:39 PM by ProudDad
I love "Z" cars...


I'm not scared, just too goddamn busy trying to survive in bush's amerika...and I spend too damn much time here as it is...

I hope you can see your way clear to join the community instead of the "I've got mine, Jack now screw you" world of the republicans and right-wing Dems...

We'd probably get along in person...and we're both in AZ... I guess my vote will cancel yours, eh??? :hi: :shrug:
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notdesertkart Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Probably not, I've voted Perot, Clinton, Gore, and Kerry
Peace out, I won't be back.

Bye you liberal commies. ;-)

Jesse (couldn't resist)
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Moore lovers...
Hope that is not a reference to me. I am hardly a "Moore lover"... he just happens to have some points that are backed up by the facts. That's something that the conservatives in the health care debate don't have... all they seem to have to argue for the status quo are scare tactics.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
46. Regarding the "cost" of a single payer, universal health care system.
The single most commonly over-looked or unacknowledged issue is that we are already paying for it, and then a whole lot more.

Since this issue has begun to break through the wall of silence that has been so effective for so long, the estimates of cost have steadily crept upward while the percentage extracted by the insurance companies has crept downward. Look for this trend to continue as we move forward with this issue. I predict that this time next year, they will be broadcasting that there are 20 - 25 million uninsured and that the corporate pigs only suck up 10% - 15% of the money. There are at least 47 millions uninsured Americans and "health care" corporations take 25% - 40% of the money, remember this.

In your post you write, "Income taxes would increase. Response: Yep, and I don't mind paying my taxes when I know that they are being used responsibly." This is only true in the most weaselly way. While it is true that taxes would increase, they would not rise to nearly the level that you (assuming you have some health care) are currently paying in premiums and your employer would save even more. The overall costs will be dramatically decreased even while coverage is expanded.

The corporate non-news network is quoted reporting that it is "Not as simple as it looks in the movie. In most other countries, there are quotas and planned waiting times. Everyone does have access to basic levels of care. That care plan is formulated by teams of government physicians and officials who determine what's to be included in the universal basic coverage and how a specific condition is treated."

This is a deliberate deception. The quotas are simply in place to ensure that there are enough staff, supplies, and equipment available to deliver quality care to those that need it, not as they imply, that treatment is limited for those in need when budgetary limits are met. When the care budgeted to a given region or facility is exceeded, care is not limited, instead the budget is increased.

Further, the "government physicians" they speak of (as if that is some kind of disqualification in itself) are generally practicing physicians and since almost all practicing physicians are paid by the government (the single payer), they are all government physicians. There is no profit motive, no bonuses for denying care, and these countries accept and adopt "experimental" procedures years, sometimes decades, before our system does. So IOW, type and level of care is decided by doctors dedicated to caring for the ill, rather than executives and accountants, dedicated to maximizing profits and collecting fees.

The simple and indisputable truth is that, just like our military, we are being fleeced out of billions and billions of dollars to feed the insatiable corporate machine that now runs our nation. We are paying far more than we should and receiving much less than we need.


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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-07-07 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Wow...
What a beautiful post, Greyhound. I invite you to post that on my blog site... those are some great points and articulated quite nicely. Thanks!
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-08-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. Thanks it is my pleasure. Our system is a shameful sham and it just
breaks my heart to see so many people that buy any crap, no matter how blatant or outrageous, that the idiot-box feeds them.

Perhaps the principle that most of us don't understand is that corporations, no matter what business they are in, exist for only one purpose; profit, and are legally required to maximize those profits by any legal means necessary. So, a corporate school does not exist to educate, but to collect as much tuition as possible and pay their staff as little as they can get away with, and a health care corporation does not exist to provide health care, but to collect as many premiums as it can while providing only the barest minimum of service.


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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-08-07 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
57. They say:
"Everyone does have access to basic levels of
care. That care plan is formulated by teams of government
physicians and officials who determine what's to be included
in the universal basic coverage and how a specific condition
is treated. If you want treatment outside of that standard
plan, then you have to pay for it yourself."

Basic levels of care without a $5000 deductible and a hefty monthly premium? That would be a marked improvement over what I have now.

What fantasy land are these guys living in?

Oh, right, they work for a major television network and probably have gold-plated health coverage.
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olshak Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-09-07 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Because they have it easy...
...they presume that only lazy people don't have great coverage.

I have terrific coverage...better than 80/20, but I have to feel for anyone - even under an 80/20 plan. It is sooo incredibly easy to get sick/injured and run up a bill of $100 K or more. Does everyone here just happen to have $20 K lying around?

An earlier poster is right that we will save money under a universal health care system. Factor in monthly premiums, copays, scripts, and weasel-like insurance companies trying to get out of paying claims, and it's clear that everyone in this country wins with universal health care EXCEPT the insurance companies.

This government, on both side of the aisle, has sold out to corporate interests. It looks like it will take a second revolution to get the government afraid of its people again.
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mbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-09-07 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
59. An academic was guest on NPR a few years ago and she
indicated that we already spend 3times as much on healthcare as does Canada so I can't see why taxes would increase at all.
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