" People Like Clinton" -Atrios

[SaveElmer]

Let me endorse in general terms Scarecrow's take on Clinton, both the positives and the negatives, and add a note for Clinton detractors.

That people have a problems with Clinton, or prefer other candidates, is perfectly understandable. One can make a case against her for a variety of reasons, and one can of course make the case for other candidates. But I do get a sense that a lot of online negativity against Clinton is misplaced and counterproductive to the cause, that is the cause of derailing her candidacy if that is your goal.

There seems to be a tendency to paint Clinton supporters as uninformed or stupid. I have no doubt that Clinton supporters may not be aware of every argument against her, every point of potential disagreement, and every little failing. But that's true of the supporters of every candidate. More to the point, the "denigrate the supporters" strategy is, generally, no way to win friends and influence people.

People like Clinton. She's the clear frontrunner in national polls. Her strong showing as peoples' second choice suggests that the "anti-Clinton" constitutency isn't all that strong.

I'm not writing any of this to make the case for Clinton, I'm just trying to make the case that her detractors underestimate the strength of her support at their peril. Whatever the reasons, her support is real and significant.

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2007_06_03_archive.html#490226858180817670

[Tom Joad]

1. Corporate money defenders Unite!

[jefferson_dem]

2. Duh. There is considerable "like" for Hillary among Democrats.

Frankly, it is no surprise that she polls so high at this point. She is the Establishment-candidate, the undeniable front-runner, and garners nearly universal name recognition.

The principle problem for Hillary, and for the Democratic Party, is that within the OVERALL population (including Dems, Reps, and independents) her negatives are just as high, if not higher, than her positives. So all those who "like" her may heed the warning: be careful what you wish for during the nomination stage.

[wyldwolf]

4. the thing is, though, that as the nomination approaches every 4 years...

...the frontrunner's negatives are always high.

[wyldwolf]

3. And I invite all of her detractors to continue underestimating the strength of her support

...the initial stunned silence, then all manner of spinning, wailing, and gnashing of teeth that will follow as we roll through the primaries will be all the more entertaining.

[rinsd]

5. February 6th should be quite a day on DU.

:hi:

[ronnykmarshall]

9. That will be my birthday as well!

[rinsd]

12. Oh glorious day!

:party:

[Clark2008]

6. I have no doubt of that.

But, what about the spinning, wailing and gnashing of teeth when she loses the general election in a landslide?

That won't be very entertaining.

[William769]

8. I have yet to see proof of that happening.

[jefferson_dem]

10. That's because it hasn't happened...yet.

How will we feel the morning of Wednesday, November 5? That's my question.

[wyldwolf]

13. but if enough netrooters close their eyes and wish hard enough...

[SaveElmer]

14. I take it you mean Wednesday November 5th...

And I anticipate getting in very early in the morning after a late night celebrating!!!

[jefferson_dem]

19. Yes, Wed. Thanks for the proofread.

I sure hope we can all celebrate...together, SaveElmer!

[LanternWaste]

41. I think we'll all be pretty happy

I think we'll all be pretty happy the morning of Nov. 5th regardless of who the Democratic nominee winds up being.

But then again, I'm pretty positive and upbeat about our chances.

[Clark2008]

24. We don't have enough state-by-state polling to prove anything

yet.

We don't elect presidents nationally. We elect them state-by-state. I can't see her flipping any red or purple states and she may even lose us a blue state or two.

[William769]

32. I'll ask you this same question I ask everyone else who says that

Who will flip red States?

[wyldwolf]

11. I think you put a little too much stock in single digit poll numbers

Clinton consistantly leads other Dems by double digits. In Dem/Rep matchups, she either ties, polls a few points ahead, or a few points behind. In contrast, the other two frontrunners also only lead in head to heads (when they lead) by single digits.

If we are referring to polls, a five point spread in the general is much easier to reduce than a 15 point spread in the primaries.

If we're NOT referring to polls, then there is nothing to indicate Clinton will lose the general election.

[Clark2008]

23. What red state is she gonna flip?

And, to be honest, I don't put ANY stock in national polling because we don't elect presidents that way.

Can I have some state-by-state polling? You know, the ones that show her losing miserably in all the red and purple states and even slightly trailing in some blue states like Pennsylvania and Michigan - because she probably will.

I'm no mind reader, but I've never been wrong about a presidential election yet.

[wyldwolf]

25. what red state will she NOT carry that Kerry did?

I say Clinton flips Ohio and/or Virginia.

[Clark2008]

27. I don't see Virginia.

But, say she gets Ohio and loses Penn and Michigan... what good is that gonna do?

And, I knew Kerry wouldn't flip any red states, either - Ohio shenanigans aside.

I'm not saying either is a bad candidate, we're just fighting an uphill battle with media and perception - and, in Hillary's case - sexism.

[wyldwolf]

31. ok, if you want to talk hypotheticals...

...say she gets Ohio and loses Penn and Michigan but wins Florida and some other state... say she drinks a case of red bull and wins an electoral landslide?

Since there is no evidence yet on how she will do, or whether Obama or Edwards will do better, all the handwringing from the left about her is pretty pointless.

[Clark2008]

33. That may be the case.

And I'm not handwringing. I'll vote for her. I'll vote for Obama, but neither would have a chance in hell of winning my state (nor even making it close enough for the Republicans to have to spend money here, which would at least be some sort of consolation prize). I wouldn't work for either of them, though. I'd be pretty stagnant, to be honest. Neither enthuses me.

I do hope it's not Edwards though. I don't trust him as far as I could throw him (or the Republican either, for that matter). I'd vote third party if he's the nominee.

[wyldwolf]

35. I would gladly vote for John Edwards over any third party spoiler.

[Clark2008]

39. And you do that.

I, however, have a long history of not trusting the man, stemming from his time as senator, well before he ran the first time.

I can't vote for people I don't trust - no matter the party.

[SaveElmer]

28. I would add New Mexico, Nevada...

Iowa, and possibly West Virginia...

[SaveElmer]

29. And Arkansas...nt

[Clark2008]

37. Doubtful

And no.

[Nedsdag]

7. I'm not knocking the strength of her support.

I'm disheartened that she is the front runner. Yes, I've heard all the reasons why I should vote for her but I don't feel happy that she will be the nominee.

I can work until I'm blue in the face for another candidate but it still wouldn't matter. She'll be the nominee and there's nothing I can do about it.

That being said, I'll sadly vote for her with a heavy heart knowing that there are others out there who could've been a better candidate.

[marlakay]

15. If its her I will have a hard time voting

It really sucks that its all about money.

[Tom Joad]

18. it was obvious Bush also had support. She may well win. if so

the US and even more, the population of the rest of the planet, would lose.

[wyldwolf]

21. To what do you base that last sentence on?

[William769]

42. Stupidity?

[Capn Sunshine]

43. Start with Iowa and New Hampshire

mmmmmk?

[wyldwolf]

44. actually we'll start with California's absentee ballots

[William769]

45. Sure Clintons leading in New Hampshire, and that was before the debate.

This was taken after the debate.

http://www.wmur.com/realtimeresponse/13435363/detail.html

[THUNDER HANDS]

16. my girlfriend likes her

And my ex-gf too. In fact, I don't know a single woman that doesn't like Hillary Clinton. If she can mobalize single women to come out to the polls and back her, then she's win in a landslide.

[THUNDER HANDS]

17. clarification

I don't know a single single-woman who doesn't like her, meaning a woman not married.

[jefferson_dem]

22. Funny. I wrote my response to your post above before reading this one.

We are both right, i believe...

[jefferson_dem]

20. We must not travel in the same circles. I could name at least four lifelong loyal Dem women

who cannot stand her, for various reasons that we will not get into here.

-- I think numbers indicate it's single women (many who have never voted) who are particularly drawn to her.

[William769]

36. Maybe they have a reason to vote now.

[Clark2008]

You don't live near me.

I'm a woman. I don't support her. My mother's a woman - she doesn't either. None of my friends do - single or married. Not my m-i-l or s-i-l, either.

I'm sure she has some fans on the campus near me, but, by-and-large, young people simply don't vote in the numbers needed to pull and election one way or the other.

I think her popularity amongst women is just like it is with everyone else - it's dependent upon where you live and what kind of media you've been exposed to for 15 years. In the South and mid-West, we don't have much AAR or alternative media floating around - it's mostly right-wing - and our perceptions of her are very jaded. Plus, a lot of women know how very sexist this country still is.

[beachmom]

26. My Mom likes her. Still others want her in so that Bill is back in.

I don't know what is going to happen. But I have a feeling the haters and detractors are louder than the supporters (well, except on DU), who are sometimes embarrassed to speak up because of how loud the haters are.

She is not my first pick because of policy and character issues. But I think it is a waste of time to hate her.

[Clark2008]

30. I don't hate her.

I don't hate Obama.

In fact, either is fine with me (and I do mean just "fine." I don't see either of them as someone I'll work for. I'll just vote. They're both rather bland and don't really meet my interests, but better than Republicans). I just don't see them winning.

[beachmom]

34. I don't either. But man -- the wingers around me are NUTS in their hatred.

I saw a pick-up truck with a vanity license plate that said "No Hilry". He was clearly a right winger. But, man -- can you imagine taking the time and money to display your disapproval? Only hate can create such an action.

[RaleighNCDUer]

38. I've had pro-Dem, anti-Bush stickers on my car for the last 7 years

and last month, for the first time, somebody fucked with them - scratching through the 'Bush' on my "Save America, Defeat Bush" sticker, writing in 'Clinton' underneath.

She will NOT take any red state. I promise. With NC teetering between red and blue, she would cost us NC. Guarentee.

[Clark2008]

40. I don't get that - spending money on something one hates.

Heck, I don't hate her - I just barely like her - and I won't spend any money on her, nominee or no.

All she'll get out of me is a half-assed vote.

[ddeclue]

46. Just wrong wrong wrong...this is a lame straw man argument

We who oppose Hillary DON'T think she or her supporters are "stupid", we think she's overly calculating and self-ambitious and we think she plays to the audience rather than telling us what she beliefs. She's a poll driven candidate whom I don't trust - nor do I trust Joe Biden or Joe Lieberman either for the same reasons.

We just don't trust her to be a real Democrat.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL