For the Record: Ten Reasons for Kucinich; Eight Reasons Against

[Flabbergasted]

For....

Kucinich does not cater to special interests.

Kucinich has a Strong history of standing up for workers rights.

Kucinich is the most out-spoken opponent of the Iraq war in congress.

Kucinich, by standing up to the corporate city council and bank while mayor, saved the city 200 million dollars.

Kucinich has great integrity. He has always stood be principle.

Kucinich truly believes in peace.

Kucinich is not afraid to take an unpopular stance.

Kucinich leads a spiritually inspired life

Kucinich was a highly successful businessman

Kucinich has repeatedly stood up and spoken his mind on every issue the country has faced. Take a good look at his website under issues and you will find a substantial list of progressive positions.

Kucinich represents the middle of the Democratic Party and all the ideals of what the democratic party should be. In the 80's the Democratic Part moved to the right. In fact they became similar to their right wing counterparts.

Okay and now against

Kucinich is a little short and he's not necessarily handsome.

Kucinich is not the best public speaker I've heard.

Kucinich has an odd name which is hard to remember and pronounce.

Kucinich has a wife 30 years younger whom he married after one date. I do really like his wife. She is a true humanitarian.

Kucinich has been married three times.

Kucinich changed his position on abortion in order to have a shot at the presidency. Although I'm not fond of flip-flopping (no one is) he will stand up for his current position safe and rare.

Kucinich can be abrasive and hard-nosed. He should try working with people more.

Kucinich went on a spiritual journey after his mayorship. Although I personally have no problem with this fact, his exposure to New Age Concepts will turn off mainstream America.

In Summary he's not perfect he's just the best candidate for the presidency. This country is in big trouble. We can no longer play games with the war and our domestic policies. We need action.

Elect Kucinich President.

[graywarrior]

1. He also was connected to the macrobiotic and vegan community.

That could be considered weird.

[Flabbergasted]

2. Didn't think of that.

[RebelOne]

58. He is a vegan and I do not consider that to be weird. n/t

[wyldwolf]

3. hmmm....

Kucinich does not cater to special interests.

Yes he does. "Progressive" special interests.

Kucinich is not afraid to take an unpopular stance.

Which is why he flip-flopped from anti-choice and pro-flag burning amendment to pro-choice and anti-flag burning amendment when he decided to seek national office.

[Flabbergasted]

4. Could you Define "Progressive" Special Interests.

[wyldwolf]

6. sure

various racial dictated groups like the NAACP and the Arab American Institute for starters. Labor groups like Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers. Project Vote Smart has all his special interest ratings.

[Flabbergasted]

26. He also believes in these issues.

[wyldwolf]

49. so?

They are special interests.

[Flabbergasted]

51. "Catering to" and "believing in" a "special interest" are radically different things Politically.

Both in cause and effect.

[wyldwolf]

57. only from the perspective of the special interests

To everyone else, "believing in" and "catering to" are the exact same thing.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYCGirl]

5. Kucinich wants to ban mind control weapons from Space.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/10/AR2007011001399_3.html

:silly: :tinfoilhat:

[Freddie Stubbs]

7. Is that a reason for, or against?

[NYCGirl]

8. IMO, against. For the more tinfoily folks, perhaps for. NT

[ProudDad]

12. From the article

"Doug Gordon, Kucinich's spokesman, would not discuss mind control other than to say the proposal was part of broader legislation outlawing weapons in space. The bill was later reintroduced, minus the mind control. "It was not the concentration of the legislation, which is why it was tightened up and redrafted," was all Gordon would say."

So (as wolfie would counter) "You're for weapons in space?"

[NYCGirl]

17. Here's the actual bill:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.R.2977.IH:

It's not the space-based weapons that are eyebrow-raising; it's the "psychotronic" stuff.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

50. good to see the actual bill

or as proudpoopy would say, "But you don't believe in tinfoil hats?"

[rman]

77. the "psychotronic" stuff isn't that far-fetched

The US mind control program MK-Ultra has been exposed, formerly secret docs about it have been declassified
http://www.michael-robinett.com/declass/c000.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKULTRA
Though it doesn't necessarily include beam-type mind control devices.

Otoh, technology capable of beaming sound very directionally (so that you "hear voices" that no-one else is hearing) has been demonstrated on either Discovery Channel or National Geographic (i always mix up the two). It is not even very special technology, it's just ultra-sound that's frequency-modulated with audible sound. Ultra-sound is easy to beam very directionally.
Also it has been demonstrated at a university sometime in the 70's that E/M fields can affect brain activity so that it causes "strange sensations" in the subject.
But as far as i know there's no evidence, certainly no declassified docs that prove this kind of technology is being developed or used by secret agencies.

[LynneSin]

9. Not Necessarily Handsome? Compared to whom?

Hell compared to this guy Kucinich could be considered for People Magazine's Sexiest man alive

[rinsd]

10. Against

- He has shown poor judgement in staff selection at various levels of public service.

[ProudDad]

15. got any proof?

or are you guessing?

[SaveElmer]

16. He appointed a teenager...

To an important post while he was Mayor of Cleveland...

And hired a 24 year old with six months as a stock broker as Financial Director of the city...

http://www.nndb.com/people/763/000024691/

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Flabbergasted]

27. Do you have anything current? It would be alot more meaningful.

[SaveElmer]

29. I would think his performance in the one executive office he has held...

Would be highly relevant as he pursues the most important executive job in the world...

[Flabbergasted]

31. You are trying to compare the decisions of the youngest mayor in American History with

the Kucinich of later days. I don't think so.

[SaveElmer]

32. Bill Clinton was the same age as Kucinich...

When elected Governor of Arkansas...it was his tenure as an effective Governor that propelled him to national prominence...

Kucinich has no public executive experience since his term as mayor...has not shown a willingness to expend any political capital while in Congress...there is just very little there that would commend him as President...

[Flabbergasted]

34. Finally some truth.

[Radical Activist]

30. rinsd

has information that is more current to his last two campaigns. Dennis seems to think he can personally micro-manage his Presidential campaign like he does with his Congressional campaigns, but it just doesn't work that way. Based on what I've seen of his ability to manage a Presidential campaign, I would fear for this country if he were ever elected President.

[rinsd]

22. Well let's see

He hired complete neopyhte in their early 20's to important positions in Cleveland

He hired Will Pitt as Press Secretary. Will is a great writer but you may want to do a search on his story of the Kucinich campaign.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2899813&mesg_id=2899813

I believe a former PDAer Kevin Spidel (though speaking on his own and not for PDA) has also posted on the subject of Kucinich running

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=124204&mesg_id=124204

Here's an article dealing with a Kucinich staffer at the FL Dem convention is 2003

http://www.politics1.com/fla-convo.htm

Even now I have seen people bitching about their website and how its run. I've seen volunteers get into fights on his website's forum because their seems to be little oversight and when there is it is not clear who is in charge.

It has been missteps in fundraising via the web. They posted a goal of raising $50K by President;s Day giving roughly a week or so to raise the money. They got barely over half and took the "thermometer" down. It looked like they were acting from a point of weakness but worse it seems the campaign has no final decision maker.

[Radical Activist]

28. Deja Vu

"It looked like they were acting from a point of weakness but worse it seems the campaign has no final decision maker."

That was exactly the problem in 2003/04. I'm waiting to hear if DK hires a campaign manager with at least some basic qualifications for the job this time. The two managers he went through last time (after many months without one at all) had no qualifications or relevant experience of any kind.

[Flabbergasted]

33. Lets take #1. The linkless thread comes from newsbusters which links back to DU as its source.

A link to a DU thread that has no link. It comes from here....

http://newsbusters.org/node/9645?from=90&comments_per_page=90 (found after a search)

Unfortunately the article itself links back to Democratic Underground.

I repeat: The linkless thread comes from newsbusters which links back to DU as its source.
I repeat: The linkless thread comes from newsbusters which links back to DU as its source.


Flat out wrong.

[SaveElmer]

35. It links back to a post by Will Pitt himself...

Admitting what a horrible Press Secretary he was...

[rinsd]

38. LOL! I linked to the Will Pitt's post on DU not newsbusters!

See I remembered when Will posted it because it was a big deal. So I used my fancy smancy Google toolbar (only available to us upper-echelon DLC types :sarcasm:) on DU and wwow

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS212US212&q=will+pitt+kucinich+site:democraticunderground%2ecom

Results 2 & 3 got to Pitt's thread.

"Flat out wrong."

So is deliberately mis-characterizing what someone has posted.

[Flabbergasted]

42. Damn I screwed that one up.

[rinsd]

45. No worries

We've tussled enough that I know the intentions weren't all bad ;-)

[Flabbergasted]

46. #2 you screwed up on...

Read the link thoroughly....

[Flabbergasted]

47. #3 is damaging as well...

Ok I'm convinced that he has made mistakes in regards to whom he has hired. Its a pitty.

[Flabbergasted]

36. An anti-Kucinich DUer spends his time at Kucinich.us in order to find criticism...

and make problems. What's your screen name?

[rinsd]

39. If I were really dastardly....

...I would say I was in fact a poster over there and then watch as paranoid loons ripped to shreds innocent Kucinich supporters under the guise of outing me.

But alas no, I do not post there. Its for Kucinich supporters, not for Democrats in general.

That doesn't mean I haven't checked out the forum or that I don't read other websites.

[ProudDad]

14. Today's reason to love Kucinich

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/28/1335231

[SaveElmer]

20. 9. Opposed Stem cell research...then flipped to run for Prez...nt

[Flabbergasted]

25. Link?

[SaveElmer]

21. 10. Supported flag desecration amendment...then flipped to run for Prez...nt

[Flabbergasted]

23. That would be the bill endorsed by Hillary?

[SaveElmer]

24. No...as usual those opposing Hillary get this wrong...

She NEVER...repeat NEVER has supported an amendment to the Constitution to ban flag desecration...unlike Kucinich...

Last time an amendment looked like it might pass she supported a law that would have banned it in certain instances as a way to head off approval of the amendment...

The amendment failed to pass by one vote with Hillary voting against it, along with the Republican sponsor of the law Sen. Bennett of Utah...

Kucinich on the other hand supported a full blown constitutional amendment banning desecration...right up until he decided to run for President...

[Flabbergasted]

48. I've read otherwise; can you prove it?

[Freddie Stubbs]

59. Here you go:

Hillary Clinton Co-Sponsors Anti-Flag Burning Bill

December 05, 2005

Senator Hillary Clinton is supporting a bill that would ban flag burning, but she is opposed to a constitutional ban on the act.

Clinton is co-sponsoring a bill that would make it a crime to destroy a flag on federal property, intimidate anyone by burning a flag or burning someone else's flag.

A spokesperson for the Senator says Clinton supports making flag burning a crime, but is hesitant to amend the Constitution.

Clinton's move to co-sponsor the bill is seen by many observers as an apparent attempt to win over conservative voters as she preps for a possible run for the White House in 2008.

more: http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=3&aid=55396

The Senate has only voted on the flag amendment once since Senator Clinton was elected. She opposed it:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00189

Kucinich voted to amend the Constitution four times to prohibit flag burning:

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1997/roll202.xml

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1999/roll252.xml

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll232.xml

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2003/roll234.xml

[Flabbergasted]

63. Thanks...

I actually could care less. I also don't care if he voted against abortion. These are all sub points to what is really going on in the country and what needs to happen.

[martymar64]

54. Of course you notice

that all of the Hillary fans are over here being Kucinich Haters, doing the same thing they accuse everyone else of doing.

Kind of funny, innit?

[Flabbergasted]

55. As "un-threatening"as he is in the end he is Clinton's Achilles heel.

[SaveElmer]

60. SHow me where I have been innaccurate...nt

[martymar64]

61. A hater is a hater

You whine about Hillary haters, but here you are , laying the hate down on Dennis.

Admit it, you're busted!

Why bother, Kucinich supporters would NEVER vote for Hillary and vice versa.

Go bug the Obama and Edwards and Clark fans, you havea better chance with them.

[SaveElmer]

62. I think Kucinich would make a very poor President...

But I only criticize him on a factual basis..if you can't handle it...ignore is your friend!

[martymar64]

64. I won't put you on ignore

Someone needs to call you on your bullshit.

[SaveElmer]

65. Again...show me where I have been innaccurate...nt

[martymar64]

66. I don't have time for a petty pissing contest with you

If you want to judge Kucinich on his performance as Mayor 30 years ago, then go right ahead. I'll simply judge Hillary on the fact that she was a Young Republican and a Goldwater girl and still is at heart.

At least Dennis has grown and evolved, whereas Hillary has not. Her positions are still Republican, circa 1970, what is now called under the misnomer 'centrist'.
Now try to defend her position that we need permanent troops in Iraq. I dare you.

[SaveElmer]

67. How about employing an original tactic...

You can't refute any of the criticisms I have made of Kucinich...so you turn it around, like most do, to make the thread about Hillary.

Lame...

[martymar64]

71. Your criticisms are lame.

You have to go back almost thirty years to dig up any sort of dirt on Dennis, and then it's only about his hiring choices and the fact that his positions on issues like abortion have evolved. At least he has evolved in the right direction, unlike Hillary who is still a Young Republican and Goldwater Girl at heart.
For Hillary, there's plenty of recent fodder.
Just last year she endorsed her ideological brother Lieberman in the primaries. She threatened to invade Iran in a speech to AIPAC, her main sugar daddy. She is totally for keeping our troops in Iraq permanently, she said so herself.

Nice try. Now run along back to the Hillary Cult of Personality.

[SaveElmer]

73. ...

You have to go back almost thirty years to dig up any sort of dirt on Dennis

You mean to dig up information that is widely available, and clearly shows that in the one instance Kucinich was put in a position of executive responsibility...he failed?

At least he has evolved in the right direction, unlike Hillary who is still a Young Republican and Goldwater Girl at heart.

All evidence to the contrary...

Just last year she endorsed her ideological brother Lieberman in the primaries.

As did such well known conservatives as Barack Obama and Barbara Boxer...

Now how about addressing Kucinich's failures as Mayor, and lack of significant accomplishment as a Congressman...and show me why they don't matter for someone running for President...

[martymar64]

74. Final word and then I'm through with you

I will never vote for Hillary. If she's lucky enough to win the nominiation, I'll leave that space blank on my ballot and vote on the other races, like Congress, and city council.
A vote for her is a vote for continuation of the war, a continuation of predatory capitalism, a vote for cynicism, a vote for restricted civil liberties.
Queen Hillary can go fuck herself!

[saltpoint]

37. On the points in your post I like him better and not worse.

Politicians often change their positions on an issue. I believe he changed his stance on reproductive freedom toward the equal rights for women side of the ledger. I don't begrudge him his quest for spiritual truth; that takes some integrity, and my guess is his quest is more thorough than most.

I kind of like him as a public speaker.

I don't care how tall he is.

I think he's plenty handsome.

And your 'positive' list is a good summary but abbreviates his virtues. It would be an honor to have him as a Congressman. Many Americans are stuck with jerks like Steve Buyer and Darryl Issa and Dan Burton and so forth. Many of them would take Dennis Kucinich any day of the week, no matter how difficult it may be for them to pronounce or spell his name.

[rinsd]

40. I think he is fine as a public speaker also.

The voice isn't perfect but I think he speaks pretty well. I think he has gotten more natural at this over the years which is not surprising.

[saltpoint]

41. Yes. American kids aren't taught public speaking for the last

several generations. My mother and her mother were taught public speaking in their rural school districts years ago, but sometime or other, it began to fade in curricula and now it's almost gone altogether.

Dennis' skills for the most part are self-directed and self-realized. I like that in him a lot.

[rinsd]

43. No Civics, no Public Speaking & no Debate as part of the curriculum

15 years ago, I was on the debate team and the mock trial teams but the closest classes I got to civics were electives as a senior.

[saltpoint]

44. For me, it's a sad development in education. At the time when

public speaking is at its lowest ebb, the country has to suffer through 6-8 years of Dubya's tortured English.

It feels as if the two are connected.

Let's put a Democrat who can SPEAK in the White House.

[LWolf]

52. Interesting.

His "against" list is mostly superficial, while his "for" list has depth and bite to it.

7 out of 8 of the "againsts" are only bad for the narrow-minded; the 8th is only bad if you can't find any other item of substance to criticize. It's weak, but the other seven have no substance at all.

Perhaps he is the best choice for those of us who desire substance, rather than the status quo.

;)

[treestar]

53. Kucinich has great integrity. He has always stood be principle.

That is good enough for me.

I think we need someone who will just do the job, rather than being "great" and planning a "legacy." Someone who is not handsome and charismatic and all that joke stuff. Kennedy is gone. All we need is a President.

All the personal stuff, who gives a *? though I knew the Amurkan public can't quit with it, but they will be happy enough to talk about what they've got.

[cali]

56. That's enough for you?

One can have great integrity- although Kucinich's abortion, stem cell and flag amendment positions and changes on positions weaken that argument, and still be ineffective. And Kucinich's career in the House has been just that. He's great at grandstanding and lousy at legislation.

[Greyhound]

69. You've written that repeatedly and have yet to back it up with any evidence.

Is it that the people he represents in Ohio are just too stupid to see it, or could it be that you have an agenda?

[rman]

78. It's because the corporate shills that control the house

oppose most of Kucinich's legislation - even though according to polls most Americans support those issues, such as tax-funded healthcare and raising the minimum wage.

[Ninja Jordan]

68. Reason 9: he is a pretentious asshole

[Greyhound]

70. Now there's a reasoned and cogent argument from someone that has obviously

spent a great deal of time studying the issues before forming their opinion.:eyes:

Do you ever wonder how so many charlatans and incompetents manage to get themselves elected?

[martymar64]

72. I gotta hand it to you NJ, you slam everyone equally

I've never heard you say anything nice about ANY candidate.
Let me guess, you're a stealth Bob Avakian supporter. :applause: :applause:

[Ninja Jordan]

75. Hey I try.

I prefer Edwards, Richardson, and Obama--or Gore (but he is not, and will not, run)

[martymar64]

76. They're all better choices than Queen Hillary

I would prefer Kucinich myself, I like his policies. But those other guys are OK for now and if they win, will have my full support.
Hillary however is a non-starter in my book. Her fan club is too full of smarmy pricks.