From July '03-Nov. '04, two top Dem strategists knew WH was lying and said nothing

[blm]

to the public about what they knew.

James Carville, married to Mary Matalin who coordinated the press aspect of the coverup for Dick Cheney.

Mandy Grunwald, married to Matt Cooper who let WH get away with claiming no involvement when he knew full well that Rove was his source.

Carville was also supposed to be a key voice FOR the Democratic party on CNN throughout that time.

These two prominent Dem voices, who KNEW THE TRUTH the entire time, let Joe Wilson get smeared as the liar by the WH and its operatives, while they PROTECTED the WH secret of its own lies regarding involvement in the leak.

These two 'strategists' should be held in contempt by those who struggled every day to get the truth out about the WH and its lies. They acted disloyally to this country AND to the Democratic party.

Where is the outrage?

[Auntie Bush]

1. Right Here!!!!

I'm outraged! Before this post...I was willing to give Carville a break or a little understanding because he represented Hillary and I used to like him very much. But no more! I'm outraged that Carville could do that...as loyalty to his wife. I always wondered how they could get along. Now I know!

[blm]

2. Thanks for being here - we need all the honest Democrats we can get at this point.

.

[DemDogs]

84. Ask Hillary to fire both of them!

See if she really is sorry.

[TomInTib]

3. How do you know that they knew anything?

My sweetheart handles very sensitive information and never breathes a word of it to me.

Never.

I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a chance they did not actually know the hard details.

[blm]

4. They knew WH was lying about NOT being involved in the outing at the very least

or else their spouses would never even be part of the story.

The only way Matalin would've been involved at that point was if CHENEY called her in.

And remember the series on HBO, K Street, that tried to make light of the involvement and set up a protect Matalin atmosphere? That was no doubt DELIBERATE on both Carville and Matalin's part.

[SaveElmer]

5. Do you have any evidence...

Or are you simply assuming all this because they are married to Republican operatives?

[blm]

8. Carville would have to be deafer, dumber and blinder than all of DU who saw

what was going on immediately when it happened.

And the way they handled that K Street show showed cognizance of the need to protect Matalin.

You are welcome to provide your own conclusion given all that you observed during that time period. I am giving mine, and would welcome a sound, logical disagreeing viewpoint that wouldn't expect me to suspend reason.

[SaveElmer]

9. So you don't is the short answer...nt

[blm]

12. You are welcome to believe that they knew nothing. I do not believe it is possible

People can decide for themselves what is a reasonable conclusion.

[endarkenment]

21. You are debating with part of the problem. nt

[dionysus]

57. defend the DLC douchebags till yer dyin breath, wontcha?

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TomInTib]

11. Obviously, if they didn't have an idea, they would be the only...

people in America who were capable of thought that didn't think the WH was involved.

The point I was trying to make was that just because one's spouse knows, does not mean the hard info is shared.

One of the reasons my sweetheart does not share info with me is that she knows I would spread it all over the 'net, starting right here on DU.

For I am the definition of "loose cannon" and I do not give a damn who gets hurt or caught as long as that person is not me or mine.

[blm]

13. Of course I understand that. My spouse works in a newsroom and I know aspects

of stories that get editted out all the time as overall 'business' decisions.

[beachmom]

17. Hey, I watched that show. Expand on that. What is it that the

show was doing to help them? I remember Howard Dean making a cameo on there.

[blm]

18. They scripted a fury of phonecalls about the 'leaking' of a CIA agent's name

and it was all stressing Matalin's innocence. But, we all know from the trial testimony that she was very much in the thick of it, orchestrating the media strategy.

So - if she and Carville were the two figures driving the storylines on that show, they both must have come up with this distracting tactic fully cognizant of what they were doing by blurring the real event with the scripted one.

[Dr Fate]

28. How do you think they knew nothing? Any Joe-blow with a computer knew Bush was lying.

And no- I dont mean obscure conspiracy web-sites- the BBC, Channel 4 (UK) and even CNN carried the stories that showed me they were lying.

[TomInTib]

66. I am not saying they knew nothing.

I am just saying that just because you live with someone doesn't mean you have access to all that they may know.

There's a difference, you know.

[Parisle]

6. This is a great opportunity

--- ....to see the "political industry" for what it is,... rather than believing in the ongoing charade being scripted and choreographed by the two principle parties.

[blm]

14. That's the way I see it. The 'industry' didn't want to see that securing voting machines

would be most crucial for Democrats to win elections.

There is no money to be made in securing the machines, there IS plenty of money to be made by 'advising' candidates to move to the right and center.

[paulk]

7. are you saying that because these people were married

to people who "knew" that they also knew?

That's quite a charge to make...


My wife works with attorneys, and has worked on several trials over the last several years - trials that were in the national news - and I didn't know anything about things I wasn't supposed to know about. Why? Because it was against the law for her to talk about it.

So you are, in effect, claiming that Carville and Grunwald are criminals.

-------------

You want outrage?

I'm outraged at your scurrilous campaign on this board to smear people through association.

It's despicable.

[blm]

10. Against the law for Carville and Grunwald or their spouses? I don't think so.

I reach a LOGICAL conclusion. You don't like it.

Sorry, paulk, but I believe I am correct just as you believe your conclusions are correct. You are welcome to believe that it is all mere coincidence and perfectly innocent. I do not.

I don't believe I am alone in that.

[trudyco]

15. well, not divulging things to your spouse to save your career

and butt is different from divulging information covered under attorney/client confidentiality.

I don't see how Cooper or Matilin keeping quiet would mean anything more than that they were saving their careers and maybe keeping from being prosecuted. If I were their spouse I'd want to know. I'd keep bugging them until I knew. If I were Carville and found out I'd either expose her or divorce her. This isn't like weasling out of a speeding ticket. She was covering up the VP who purposely put a whole CIA operation out of commission. People may very well have died.

As for Cooper's spouse, well keeping sources secret to cover up a crime is different from not divulging a source to protect them from exposing a crime. She should have pushed to know the truth and expose him or divorce him.

Now that they know the truth and are still married - well that says a lot about them. So, they very well could have known before the public knew.

Carville is dirt. He has no ethics.

[blm]

16. Exactly - and they could've been secret sources themselves who revealed to a reporter

that they KNEW the WH was lying about their innocence in the outing of a CIA analyst and her firm. All the cute cover phrases could have been used for them, too, if they wanted.

What they did choose was SILENCE even though they had access to seriously important information - serious to this country's security and serious to whether or not BushInc would remain in power for another 4 years. Especially with a corpmedia constantly pushing the storyline that Bush was a straightshooter of unquestionable integrity.

[paulk]

29. it's not about attorney client/ privilage

it's about the assumption that because you're married to someone you're privy to all their secrets.

That seems a pretty flimsy plank to base the kind of accusations made here on.

[blm]

34. It wasn't the BASE of assumption - it's cumulative with these particular relationships.

.

[paulk]

53. and you are privy to the....

ins and outs....

of these particular relationships?

[blm]

56. I can make a logical conclusion. Ever see that K Street episode where

Carville and Matalin were making light of the outing as IF she were not involved, yet we know through testimony that she was very much involved?

There wasn't even an investigation at the time, but they both thought it was important enough to protect her to hastily use it in their script in a completely DEFLECTIVE way.

[trudyco]

88. but attorney/client was the example you gave...

I'm saying your example is like comparing apples to oranges. There was no law to be broken in saying to your spouse that the whitehouse started the leak. Neither Cooper or Matalin are attorneys, are they? So your example doesn't fit the issue at hand.

I suppose the spouses, if they knew, were obstructing justice. More telling to me is the fact that Carville is still married, now that he knows for sure. This silence (Matalan and Cooper) helped foist an expensive war on us based on lies. Thousands of people have been killed, many innocents. It has caused a civil war in Iraq. Possibly some CIA operatives were killed. Valuable intel network(s) were destroyed. If I were married to Matalan I'd insist on knowing the truth. It's hard for me to believe Carville wasn't.

[fooj]

69. We DO know one thing for certain...

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward

<snip>

"Carville told her he had some inside news. The Kerry campaign was going to challenge the provisional ballots in Ohio -- perhaps up to 250,000 of them. 'I don't agree with it, Carville said. I'm just telling you that's what they're talking about.'

"Matalin went to Cheney to report...You better tell the President Cheney told her."

Matalin does, advising Bush that "somebody in authority needed to get in touch with J. Kenneth Blackwell, the Republican Secretary of State in Ohio who would be in charge of any challenge to the provisional votes."

<snip>

Carville collaborates with his wife. The rest, as they say, is history.

[Tellurian]

19. According to this Maxim of Juris Prudence..

YOU, blm, are an IMMORAL PERSON!

and here's how and what you are doing is viewed by people with more than an ounce of moral turpitude:

"I believe it is an established maxim in morals that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false, is guilty of falsehood; and the accidental truth of the assertion, does not justify or excuse him."

Source:
Abraham Lincoln
August 11, 1846 - Letter to Allen N. Ford

http://home.att.net/~howingtons/abe.html

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tellurian]

23. Oh, yeah- that would hold up in court!

your word and "feelings"..

How about providing proof when you make "smearing" statements. Otherwise, don't make them!

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tellurian]

25. Why ? Questions getting to hard to answer when faced with the Truth?

And if your intention is to be rude again, don't bother responding to my post.

But I will reiterate what I just said..You are propagating a smear campaign against people that would never hold up in court unless you provide proof. Do you have supporting evidence the Democratic Party is corrupt as you have vehemently said?

No, I didn't think so!

[blm]

26. The Democratic PARTY isn't corrupt, but some of its most powerful bignames ARE.

BushInc couldn't have thrived all those years without serious enabling from some key Democrats.

The Clintons' Real Trouble with Truth

By Robert Parry
February 24, 2007



Hollywood mogul David Geffen touched a raw nerve with Hillary Clinton when he told New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd that “everybody in politics lies, but they do it with such ease, it’s troubling.”

The Clintons’ trouble with truth, however, is not just the petty political lying nor is it their quibbling over what “is is” or what “mistake” means. It’s that they have never shown any real reverence for the truth. Too often, they see it as something to be traded away for a transitory tactical advantage.

If a future historian is ever to understand what happened to the United States in this era – how the world’s greatest power so disastrously lost its way – that scholar should look back to the first Clinton-Bush transition in 1992-93, when Bill Clinton could have grasped a unique historical moment but didn’t.

Clinton was the first U.S. President to take office after the end of the Cold War. He could have ordered a long-needed historical review of what nine U.S. presidents had done, often behind opaque cloaks of government secrecy.

This review also could have assessed what damage those decades of secrecy, propaganda and deception had done to the core values of the American Republic. By revealing the truth, both the good and the bad, Clinton could have helped restore vibrancy to the democratic process by giving the voters the means to again be an informed electorate. ......(more)

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/022307.html

[Tellurian]

32. Meaningless, unfounded, persecuting, tripe..

Without a shred of proof for any allegations.

The usual from you and Robert Parry..

Hawking book sales is your game here.

[endarkenment]

80. You sure are good with tossing insults

but quick to alert, eh?

[blm]

81. heh.... It's expected. Comes with the territory for anyone who focuses on corruption issues

There are some here at DU who truly believe that some corruption is necessary to gain access to power positions, even if they are STILL in service to BushInc.

[Senator]

22. For Carville it's Serial Outrage. But for Grunwald...

... I'd be less likely to pull the trigger. Unlike with Matalin, her reporter-husband's job is to keep his sources confidential -- even from her -- even if it costs him (or his family) something.

On the other hand, the couple I saw leaving the Peabody Hotel "somewhat together" on Clinton Library Inaugural night (Nov. 2004) was Carville and Grunwald?!? So I suppose any type of collusion/chicanery is possible.

--

[Dr Fate]

27. I think a lot of "yes" voting DEMS knew he was lying too. Hell, I knew it.

I'm no Rocket-scientist and I knew it.

Of course top DEMS were aware- it was our most shameful hour.

That is not to say they cant make up for their mistake (example- John Kerry)- investigations for the sole purpose of Impeachment would wipe the slate clean as far as I am concerned.

[blm]

63. I was talking about the outing of Plame. WH said in 2003 they had no involvement

and media protected them even though they KNEW they were lying. Carville and Grunwald also knew but every one of them let Wilson get smeared as the liar.

[mtnsnake]

30. What a boat load of slanderous crap. You can't even provide proof or a link

Why don't you post this utter nonsense on some RW posting board where it belongs? It's uncanny how much time you waste spreading RW talking points and it's pathetic how many sheep here believe you. bahhhhhhhHHHH

BTW, how is it that you can fantasize and invent stuff like this about Carville on one hand, but on the other hand it's perfectly alright that Kerry was aware, according to you, of that closing the books stuff you're always so worked up about and he isn't doing anything about it. Maybe you should start a thread about him not coming forward but instead covering up what he knows with silence.

[blm]

33. You'll NEVER find ONE RWer who points out that some Dems cover up for Bushes

So, your claim has NO BASIS IN REALITY.

[mtnsnake]

35. My claim has no basis on reality? Uhh, you're the one who makes the wild claims, not me

so how about coughing up some proof of your baseless allegations? You stated is fact, and without proof, it's what I'd call SLANDER. Got a link blm?

[blm]

37. Tough - Carville's record is CUMULATIVE. I don't give a hoot if you want to ignore it.

.

[mtnsnake]

41. "Tough"? What kind of proof is that?

Is that how they do it in science fiction?

[SaveElmer]

77. When has proof EVER been required when it comes to slandering...

Democrats they don't like...

I got slammed a couple weeks ago for talking about members of the "loony left"...well this thread is a prime example of their modus operandi...

And note how similar it is to the tactics employed by right wing slime balls.

[Tellurian]

36. Has it Occurred to You there Aren't any..?

No, Occam's Razor, doesn't make any sense to you!
It wouldn't sell any books because theres NO STORY!

[blm]

39. Yeah, so we are told - Gergen and Clinton love the Bushes - no scandals there.

Move on. Nothing to see.

Oh yeah - the great IranContra, BCCI, CIA drugrunning scholar, Tellurian, has spoken - there is NOTHING there - move on.

[Tellurian]

42. Back everything you say with proof...

you've been debunked so many times, you're DU's resident conspiracy theorist!

LAUGHABLE!

[mtnsnake]

43. You'll have better luck getting orange juice out of a rock!

[blm]

44. The COINCIDENCE THEORISTS are the problem with this country.

You have never countered anything - you flatter yourself. You only prove that the establishment powerstructure has its defenders who actually BELIEVE that secrecy and privilege are a price worth paying for power.

Your attacks are meaningless to me because coincidence theorists have no credibility with me.

[Tellurian]

47. What you hate so much; you have BECOME! LOOK in the Mirror!

Thats you, you're talking about...

Coincidence/conspiracy theorist...

paranoia will destroya!

[mtnsnake]

49. The Clintons are coincidence theorists?

Wow, I learn something new here every day.

[Tellurian]

50. WHY are you here...Take your accusations to a GRAND JURY...You and PARRY!

We'll watch!

[Zodiak]

72. Please read what Occams Razor means before invoking it

it is not a tool to determine truth, but a convention by which a first hypothesis is formulated.

[cadmium]

31. Just common sense blm. Those would have to be two

pretty piss-poor relationships if they could keep a big secret like this. I have not seen Grunwald and Cooper intereract so I wont comment on them. Matalin and Carville seem like a real live couple. It is impossible for me to believe that they wouldn't at least talk let alone collude. It is not like an affair which is a totally different dynamic. Sharing secrets about government double-dealing would be a big time bonding experience. Of course they collude.

[dsc]

38. Why would Cooper have told Grunwald anything?

I know your husband is a reporter, I sure hope he doesn't tell you who his sources are. If he did, you could be supeoneaed.

[blm]

40. Except at the time the story was being pushed as wellknown gossip, so why would

any source have to be a secret from even a wife?

[dsc]

45. because Cooper and Miller were both being hauled before Grand Juries

to testify. This is the case where Miller actually got jailed for refusing to testify.

[blm]

48. Not at the time it first happened, and THAT first month and all the other months

after is when Wilson was being smeared as a liar and WH was denying any involvement. Fitz didn't get into it till some time after CIA requested an investigation.

And reporters STILL knew the WH was LYING about its involvement and kept quiet about that lie while simultaneously watching the Bush campaign and corporate media rave about Bush's 'honesty' and straightshooting with the American people.

[dsc]

51. I would think that any reporter would have to assume this kind of thing could occur

I do agree about Carville but in the case of Cooper and Grunwald I just don't. I can't see any percentage in Cooper telling Grunwald who his source was. It seems like it would open both of them up to all kinds of potential conflicts.

[blm]

52. DC is like Hollywood - there are no real secrets, just the ones that enough people agree

will be kept quiet.

[dsc]

54. who knows

I am very glad Libby got convicted, frankly the long deliberations worried me. The rest may take a change of power to get to.

[mtnsnake]

55. With your vast knowledge of secret corruption, maybe you could replace Fitz

Seriously, seeing how you and nobody else knows this stuff about who the bad guys really are, I think Patrick Fitzgerald should step aside and let a real prosecutor take over! Good idea?

[blm]

61. Join a corruption thread here at DU for a change and try that line of attack.

I'm sure there are many here who would get a good laugh at it. Or do you save it up for me?

[mtnsnake]

71. Carville is just one more avenue for you to attack the Clintons

Join a corruption thread here at DU for a change and try that line of attack

I don't have time. I waste too much of my spare time in all the fanatical conspiracy threads of yours that you start about the Clintons or anyone associated with them.

Chelsea's old enough now. When are you going to start going after her with your wild attacks?

[blm]

79. If you bothered to understand the corruption, you would notice the links and

and attach them to your displeasure over the Dem party's unwillingness for serious investigations into matters of impeachment.

Or is that mere coincidence to you, too?

[Tellurian]

58. BLM shrieking, Everyone is Corrupt and Against Us..Then she finds out...OOOPS! made a Boo-Boo!

and has the audacity to blame Hollywood.. :hi: <laughter!!!!>

This just gets dumber and dumber by the day! hee!

A few months ago, it was a dropped pronoun or a lost pronoun..
we can't keep up with the "gossip" she's dubbed as hard evidence!

[blm]

60. Let us know when the shuttle lands.

.

[Tellurian]

62. Let us know if the TinFoil is getting too tight!

piecing together edited strips of reportage commonly known as "gossip" or unsubstantiated facts is really sick behavior.
Worse, bringing your boondoggle here and smearing un-convicted people with your tin foil brush.

Rather, if your SOOO convinced you're right...take it to a Grand Jury and see who hangs for it.. Thats what normal people do when crimes are being committed. But then you wouldn't have a soap box to stand on or sell Parry's books...now would you?

How about Libby.. He's a convicted criminal. Why aren't you headlining him for his crimes? The only people you continue to persecute are DEMOCRATS!!!! Isn't that against the Rules here?

[blm]

64. Libby is a CRIMINAL - so are his clients like Marc Rich - all BFEE fixers.

Gee - what Democrat would qualify as someone who has protected Bushes like Scooter Libby has? Hmmmm.....

[Tellurian]

65. They're NOT Elected Officials..The Law takes care of those people..

You haven't noticed you have an obsession? Geeze, how can you live with yourself attacking people who haven't been convicted by a court of Law. One of these days, they're going to call your posts Tabloid Postings. Anonymous postings by the wife of a journalist peddling confidential information and peddling books by a noted journalist. You could become the Target of Lawsuits Overnight!

Fine by me..whatever stops criminal behavior, especially slanderous accusations. I'm all for it.

Libby was a Leaker.. have at it with him.

[blm]

78. The only obsession here is your pursuit of my every mention of corrupt behavior

because you find corruption an acceptable price to pay for access to secrecy and privilege for certain Dem personalities - I don't.

[Tellurian]

89. You don't think your snooping through your spouses confidential news communications is corruption?

You have no right to pretend to speak for me. You are not qualified to judge me, you don't even know me. I am not a public figure.

Journalist and news people are protected by privacy and confidentially rules. You think nothing of flaunting your access to private confidential information, whether proven sic true or false, makes no difference. You sit and spin that information into Coulterish negative attacks on unsuspecting Democrats who have a right to face their accuser under the Rule of law.

You are reluctant to apply the same moral purity to yourself that you demand and accuse others of with impunity. Stealing private, confidential, information and posting here in stinging blatant tirades and innuendo form is criminal. I doubt your spouse's employer would applaud such reckless disregard for their stake in the gainful employ of your spouse risking their reputation for your entertainment purposes.

You're overdue for a moral backbone check. The symptoms you exhibit are that of an advanced osteoporitic in need of remedial morality counseling.

[mtnsnake]

46. Hey, maybe you could propose legislation to ban Opposite Party Marriage.

Yeah that would solve everything! (snicker)

[cadmium]

59. cant ban it obviously but I wouldnt be naive about it either n/t

[Diane R]

67. Yes. And this is why we can't nominate Hillary....Carville has not been loyal.

[mtnsnake]

70. Your goal in life as a Democrat should be to become 1/10th as loyal a Dem as Carville

He's fought so many of YOUR battles for you, you don't even realize it.

[blm]

74. No he hasn't. He helped cover up more crimes of war criminals like his wife than

any of us put together.

[Tellurian]

91. We have no proof of that..

the court frowns on wasting it's time with frivolous here-say allegations.

If allegations aren't backed with proof in hand, it serves no purpose other than malicious libelous/slander.

[Morgana LaFey]

68. Hah! You are TOOOOO late

Carville has been on my shit list for a very long time now. Outrage? You want OUTRAGE??? I've got it in spades, baby. He lost me completely when he went over to the dark side to work in Venezuela on behalf of Chavez's well-to-do, elistist opponents! This little bit of news only fuels the fire, it by no means starts it.

I am disappointed in Grunwald, tho, and I always found Cooper's handling of the whole matter (didn't know they were married) a tad cowardly, sorry to say.

What I did find amusing, tho, was how few journalists "bit" on the offered leak. Only Novak was fool enough to do their bidding. Don't know if the smart ones were the journalists of their editors, but the result was the same no matter who it was.

[blm]

75. It's definitely added outrage for me, too. Just hoping more open their eyes to who

these people actually service - and it is definitely not the American people and the constitution.

[Morgana LaFey]

87. That brings up a question for you

More and more these days, it seems, I am seized of the notion: if Bush WANTED to destroy this nation, could he be doing any better a job? Since you understand that -- well, what you wrote about who is actually being served -- where are you on the notion I've just outlined? DO you think it's possible they're simply out to destroy the United States?

[blm]

90. Co-opt the United States as a lynchpin for global fascism. They are destroying any

of its social institutions like education, the economy and the military in order to easier attain that goal, imo.

[Morgana LaFey]

92. VERY well put.

Unfortunately. :cry:

[enough already]

76. Someday our side will figure out that Carville is just playing us for personal gain

How else could he be married to that witch? He's a circus act in it only for himself. The fact that he's helping Hillary doesn't make me feel the least bit positive about her.

[underpants]

82. They all just seem to think it is fun and games until cocktail hour

Even the Jurors didn't seem to be aware of how horrible these people are and are now saying all nicey about Libby and that maybe he SHOULD get a pardon. It is as if this is all for play nothing matters no one loses their job don't make it personal (while Rove and his termites take down the house).

[blm]

83. Nibble AROUND the periphery when they all know the big enchilada is right there

in front of them - untouched.

[Jax]

85. Grunwald...

My radar went off the first time I realized she was married to Matt Cooper. Remembered her in Clinton's admin.

The incestuous relationship between these 'all about me' players is repulsive to me. But really needs to keep being uncovered and pointed out for all to see.

Carville....Kerry in Ohio....I need say no more. Corrupt to the core.

Thanks blm as always, I was late to the train but fully onboard now.

[blm]

86. No problem - imo, they were messing with us way back.

I think both our camps were used against each other by others who were only looking to get PAST us and onto 2008.

[Clarkie1]

93. Oh, come on! The whole senate knew they were lying! nt