Jane Fonda Lights into Woodruff about Kerry/Fonda Viet Nam Protest Photo!

[KoKo]

Just now Jane Fonda was on with Woodruff (I think to talk about a battered women's groups new worldwide effort) and Woodruff says: "A photo has just come to light showing John Kerry at an Anti-War Demonstration with Jane Fonda." She shows the photo of Fonda next to bearded man who might be taken for a young hip John Kerry, and then the they pan back in the picture to Kerry sitting several rows behind looking clean shaven and just a younger version...they did put a "bullseye" on the photo and to her credit Woodruff said that he was several rows back in the photo. But, your first impression was it was a bearded John Kerry.

Fonda lit into Woodruff and said "I don't even think I shook hands with John Kerry at that Demostration which was filled with Veterans against the War and for the Republicans to bring this out and question John Kerry's patriotism just shows what lengths they will go to to smear the patiotism of those who served their country in Viet Nam." (parapharase)

She made it clear that she was sick and tired of the whole thing. Good for HER!

And, you know I saw that photo on MSNBC earlier and they didn't show Kerry way off in the background on the left but used a close-up to make it seem like the guy next to Fonda who was that Bearded "yippy" looking guy was really Kerry. You Faux viewers beware of the "Trick Photo." Look to see if they spin it that way.

So, the fun and games begin. As I said though CNN after giving the first impression did pan back to show Kerry way off and Fonda was great!

[RedSox02]

1. Good for her.

What Fonda did in 73 was disgusting, and she regrets it now. But Kerry had no ties to her then, and this photo was taken two years before she went to Vietnam for that infamous pose.

[Killarney]

4. What did she do in 73?

I know she was very outspoken against the war but what specific act did she do to make all Americans hate her so vehemently? I don't know.

[RedSox02]

7. She posed with VietCong guerrillas

She posed in front of an anti-aircraft weapon with a group of VietCong guerrillas. This basically was a slap in the face to any US fighter pilot who was shot down then tortured.

[soleft]

16. I thought she posed with the NVA?

[RedSox02]

19. You might be right

I am not sure which she posed with.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. She was in Viet Nam and posed on an enemy jeep in a Viet Cong uniform

[Killarney]

12. Wow. No wonder she had a backlash. :(

[DoNotRefill]

75. nope...

the Viet Cong didn't have a uniform. She posed wearing parts of a North Vietnamese Army uniform, and for at least one set of photos, she posed sighting an anti-aircraft gun outside Hanoi. IIRC, she made a statement at the time regarding being able to shoot at American planes.

Here's a link documenting part of it...

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.htm

Here are some of the pics...

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_fonda.htm

[frustrated_lefty]

10. Called American soldiers "war criminals" and baby killers.

Jane Fonda is a pig.

[KoKo]

15. Wow, surprised to see Fonda hate here. Why?

:shrug:

[RedSox02]

18. Don't hate her personally

but you cannot excuse what she did. I don't care if you disagree with the US government or military, you NEVER go to an opposing country and pose with opposing soldiers pretending you are shooting down US planes. That is inexcusable. That is borderline treason. She regrets it now and I am sure she is a nice and intelligent person but that was a mistake.

[KoKo]

27. Red Sock.....I don't know....she may have felt strongly about what we were

doing over there. There have been times when I might have wanted to stand with the Iraqi's and point something at the sky towards one of our bombers when Bush invaded Iraq. I don't think I would pose with a suicide bomber or Saddam, but I can understand her passion if she felt about VietNam the way I feel about Iraq Invasion.

But, thanks for your reply. I can see that you feel what she did was very wrong, I wonder if she hasn't had enough pain over this, though.

[RedSox02]

30. I think she has gone through enough

It was 30 years ago, she apologized. Now she is getting dragged through the mud again to get at Kerry because he was thirty feet away from her. I am glad she is fighting back.

[KoKo]

48. Thanks......for that....n/t

[frustrated_lefty]

29. She didn't just visit and chat with the enemy.

I find it impossible to not take some of her actions personally.

excerpted from

"From 1983-85, Col. Larry Carrigan was 347FW/DO (F-4Es). He'd spent 6 years in the Hilton -- the first three of which he was listed as MIA. His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the cleaned/fed/clothed routine in preparation for a 'peace delegation' visit.

"They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his Social Security number on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like, 'Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?' and, 'Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?'"

"Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper. She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge ... and handed him the little pile of notes.

"Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost number four."

Bottom line, she should have been tried and hanged when she returned.

[RedSox02]

34. WOW I didn't know this

That is just awful.

[Another Bill C.]

36. From Snopes

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.htm

"The most serious accusations in the piece quoted above -- that Fonda turned over slips of paper furtively given her by American POWS to the North Vietnamese and that several POWs were beaten to death as a result -- are proveably untrue. Those named in the inflammatory e-mail categorically deny the events they supposedly were part of.

"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry Carrigan, one of the servicemen mentioned in the 'slips of paper' incident. Carrigan was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967 and did spend time in a POW camp. He has no idea why the story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda."

[RedSox02]

38. OK I need to regroup

Thanks for bringing this info to light. I should have been more skeptical. In any case, I think her past is being dragged into this for the wrong reasons. She at the least did make some poor judgements in posing for that infamous photo. You can't excuse that but you can forgive her. I hope she gives em hell though now that people want to drag her through the mud again and reopen old wounds.

[pacifictiger]

60. From what I've seen of media

"truth" recently I now wonder if the real story was not twisted and edited to suit US propaganda purposes. At the time she was young, idealistic, and highly disturbed at the hypocrisy of the US govt. Post war revelations about events such as the MiLai massacre, killing women and babies, has proved her correct. Perhaps the manner in which she protested was not wise in that she allowed herself to be used for "enemy" propaganda, but she was seeking the truth. Vietnam was a political lie from the start. Sound familiar?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. How about quoting the whole article from your source?

Like this part:

"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry Carrigan, one of the servicemen mentioned in the 'slips of paper' incident. Carrigan was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967 and did spend time in a POW camp. He has no idea why the story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda."

And, seeing that your so eager to hang Ms. Fonda, would you be equally anxious to try and hang some of those same POW's for the war crimes that they committed? American pilots DID bomb schools, hospitals, churches, villages, civilians.

[frustrated_lefty]

55. Mea culpa.

I was posting during a break at work and grabbed the first site which appeared to re-iterate the stories I first read some 25 years ago. Thanks for calling me on it, obviously I didn't have a chance to read through the entire site and I AM glad to learn that portion of the story was inaccurate.

Does it change my thoughts with regard to Jane Fonda? Dunno, this needs to sink into the deeper layers of the brain, but probably not. In fairness, I should probably revisit many of the tales I first read so long ago to get a clearer idea of what is fact and what is myth grown around fact.

Would I be equally as eager for war criminals to face trial and whatever justice demanded for those crimes? Yes, actually. Our soldiers deserve our utmost respect for laying their lives on the line in the service of our country. At the same time, there is a code of conduct they are required to adhere to in the process.

In any event, I DO apologize to the readers here. It was not my intent to perpetuate disinformation, I did, in all honesty, grab the first link which, at first glance, recapitulated stories I first read in the 70s.

[tkmorris]

46. False

Right wing propaganda. Please check sources, the Republicans really don't need our help to smear us.

[frustrated_lefty]

56. False, in part, agreed.

See post 55.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KoKo]

51. I was around at that time. And, personally it seemed Fonda was the RW

of that time's "Poster Girl" for all the American sentiment against that long war where my classmates died. I had "honor classes" friends die in that war...some of the best and brightest in the South who were drafted. Others signed up....but it was those who couldn't get the "deferments" the "scholarship's waiting" students in the South who got the "high number" and had to "ship out."

Those who went from Grades 1-12 in my small Southern School where we rode the buses down rural roads on an Island....all together..where we knew everyone.....will never get over those who had to go to Vietnam..when they might have gotten out of the South with a scholarship to a better education.

This was a legacy of Vietnam...Who served and who was "left" and it was worse with the "draft" than many of you young folks today can imagine.

[liberalhistorian]

76. I'm sorry, but I've always had a really

hard time believing that story, particularly that version of it. It was promoted by wingnuts who had an ax to grind against her from the beginning. I'm not saying it's not true, just that I very highly doubt that it is. My uncle was a Marine in Vietnam, and he has a hard time believing it as well.

And I'm sorry again, but I think that those thousands of spoiled rich bastards like Shrub and his ilk who used their family name and pull to get out of any kind of Vietnam service at all, netting themselves cushy stateside assignments where they wouldn't have to get their hands the least bit dirty working with the common riff raff, or risk not one little hair on their precious blue-blood heads, who allowed those without name and pull and money (read poor, working class, minority, or poor minority) to be sent over as sacrificial pawns for a misguided foreign policy, while they lounged around in colleges on endless student deferments or sat around one weekend a month in stateside National Guard units, and those who allowed such a policy to begin with, are the REAL fuckers who should be hanged by their testicles, dying a long, slow, excruciating death.

[Old and In the Way]

47. We killed 2MM+ Vietnamese and lost 50,000 Americans.

Fighting for what? How many more would have died if people like Fonda didn't make high profile protests? Better to shut up and still be fighting a senseless war now, right. Please explain to me who the real "patriots" here were? Those that waved flags and bought all the mindless war rhetoric or those that understood that this was was destroying our country?

[edzontar]

23. No real lefty, however frustrated, could ever write what you wrote

Fonda hatred is Right Wing garbage.

It was the war itself that was treasonous, and the people who planned it and kept it going were the real pigs.

[RedSox02]

28. But the soldiers were innocent

There were many ways to protest the war. What she did was just wrong. I know someone who was shot down in Vietnam and spent 8 years as a POW there. I am sure it tickles his heart to know that Fonda basically mocked what happened to him.

Yes the war was wrong, and so was what she did. She went about it the wrong way. I have no problem with her though. She just used bad judgement. She was trying to end the war but went about it the wrong way. I am sure she is a great and intelligent person.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Jane Fonda is a hero who defied the U.S. government and

the genocide it was perpetrating in SE Asia.

[RedSox02]

35. Not even she would call herself "heroic"

She deeply regrets what she did. I didn't even know about the story where some POWs tried to hand her their Social Security #s thinking she would go home and alert people they were still alive. Instead she turned in the papers to the NV and those prisoners were beaten to death.

Yeah some hero.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Read the whole article from the link.

That story is pure bullshit.

Some hero indeed. She took it upon herself to defy our government which was responsible for the deaths of millions of people and innumberable atrocities that, unlike the false story you believe, are well documented.

Do I consider her a hero? Damned right. I had friends, fellow marines, who died in Vietnam for nothing. Who were killed so that some politicians could claim to be "anti-communist".

You want to blame somebody? Try blaming the lousy politicians who started the war and continued it so that we could have "Peace with Honor".

Before you start condemning Jane Fonda you should look into what actually happened in Vietnam and the price that was paid by Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians, and the poor sad sack GI's sent there to kill.

[RedSox02]

42. She certainly wasn't the real villain

I know I've posted about 800 times already in this thread, but I got thrown for a loop by that false story and have had to backtrack all over the place. Again, I still think she made a mistake, but she was not the "bad guy" by any means. Your right about that.

[RedSox02]

39. I apologize

for using that apparently bogus story in my last post directed at you. I think she was brave but going to Vietnam was wrong. I can't call her a hero but apparently she has been overvillified.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. Thank you.

I posted my response before your apology.

What was so "wrong" about going to Vietnam to try to stop the slaughter?

[RedSox02]

43. In regards to what was wrong with it

I just don't think she was really accomplishing anything by going. For example, I have a friend in the National Guard right now who may get shipped to Iraq. I wouldn't want some protestor to go meet up with the Iraqi resistance and praise them for shooting at my friend. I think she could have found more constructive ways to protest. She wasn't hurting the US government so much by doing that, she ended up probably hurting the soldiers more, and they were victims as well.

Even if they did commit atrocities, they were in an awful situation and were under orders to do so. Also, putting myself in those soldiers shows, if I had to watch my friend get blown to pieces by a child walking up to him carrying a grenade, I am not sure how that would have effected me. Those poor guys went through hell.

[frustrated_lefty]

58. Apologies to you, RedSox02

I wasn't intentionally providing inaccurate information, it appears a certain amount of myth has grown around her actions.

A description of some of that process can be found at Women's History.

Having grown up in that time period, I am honestly perplexed as to how anyone could perceive Fonda as a "hero." Protest, for a just cause, is a laudable act. Calling returning p.o.w.s "liars and hypocrites," when they describe how they were treated, is ... it's fundamentally wrong. Protest can be, and often is, a good thing. Denigration of kids who are laying their lives on the line in the service of their country is, in my mind, an act of base treachery.

[RedSox02]

72. NO problem

I think the real villain is the one who would make up such a story to begin with and sucker people. WHat is the purpose? I was not around during the Vietnam war but I share your sentiment. I think the returning soldiers were treated unfairly. They were put in a bad spot. The GOVT' and our leaders were the problem. Not some 18-20 year old kids who had to sweat it out in the jungle and see their peers blown to bits then get ordered to bomb villages while the leaders sat in their offices and raked in the dough.

Fonda may have been right to protest, but she went too far in some instances. She has apologized and moved on.

[JVS]

63. See why the picture could be so damaging in the public, people?

[KoKo]

79. What saves it is that more than half the country doesn't know Jane Fonda

or what the hell Viet Nam was about. We wouldn't be re-writing that war to make it "a good thing" if the Repugs didn't know that most American's don't know and don't care anymore....:-( Re-education of the clueless by the Repugs though, needs to be stopped. That's why that picture's misinterpretation needs to be stopped dead in it's tracks.

[Nite Owl]

2. Doing this is just so

dumb of the Repukes. I just keeps the whole idea of the AWOL issue up front. It says Kerry was there and saw what happened, he served, he got shot and where again was Bush*? Oh yeah, protecting Texas. Maybe.

[Old and In the Way]

49. Perhaps if Bush, like Kerry, had answered his "call to duty"

he'd have been less likely to commit troops to fight a war for bogus WMDs. This is what it boils down to. I'll trust a guy like Kerry who knows firsthand the horrors of war, to use that option as last year, instead of a chickenhawk who likes to dress up as a soldier and say stupid things like "bring it on".

[VolcanoJen]

3. Remember '92: SPEED KILLED BUSH.

Anyone who saw the excellent documentary "The War Room" remembers James Carville's mantra: "Speed Kills." Getting Jane Fonda out there immediately to distance herself from Kerry seemed to be taken directly from the Clinton playbook.

Great job, Jane, and atta boy, Kerry camp. :-)

[RedSox02]

5. Battered women's group?

Yeah I am sure she was on CNN to discuss battered women's groups. heheh

[sandnsea]

21. Vagina Monologues

And the $20 million dollars that one of the people raised and the work done to raise awareness of violence against women around the world. A movie or documentary is going to be on Lifetime on the 17th I think.

[Robb]

25. VM is very cool.

It's free for performing arts groups to do it (no licensing fees on the script), on the condition they donate profits to a local shelter for battered women. :thumbsup:

[curse10]

84. I'm in a VM performance tomorrow

and we are donating all our profits to a local women's shelter

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. If only she had pointed out that those same Repubs

used every trick in the book including a boil on their butt to get out of going.

[TheDonkey]

9. That picture was laughably non-issue

Kerry was standing rows back from Fonda.

And that clip of her with Judy, wow. She tore into rethuglican trash and went to town. Very powerful counter.

[PA Democrat]

11. SNOPES: Kerry & Fonda Photo: 1970, Fonda's trip to Hanoi: 1972

I read this on SNOPES, the website that checks the accuracy of urban legends,

"The image shows no obvious signs of digital manipulation.

The person pictured in the background (just above Jane Fonda's head) looks like a young John Kerry, who was 26 years old in 1970 (see photo at right.)

The Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), an anti-war group with which Kerry was affiliated, held a rally in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, on 7 September 1970.

Actress Jane Fonda was present at the Valley Forge rally. (She was not yet known as "Hanoi Jane," however, as her infamous trip to North Vietnam did not occur until two years later.) "


http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/kerry.asp

[MidwestTransplant]

13. When anybody mentions Jane Fonda in negative terms

Just say "Jane Fonda...you mean the exercise woman...what did she ever do?"

[soleft]

17. How about Jane Fonda the Academy Award winning actress

for Klute and Coming Home?

[trogdor]

22. Damn, she was HOT!

n/c

[Capn Sunshine]

77. Yeah she was

[Feanorcurufinwe]

14. She will be on Paula Zahn tonight.

Pre-emptive damage control! It is great to see the left united against Bush.

[Another Bill C.]

20. Dubya's toady in the senate

Norm Coleman could be in the same set of pictures. He was also active in the anti-war movement of that time.

[KoKo]

24. Blitzer just shows the photo making it look like Kerry is Bearded One!

I knew it! I told you guys they would try to sneak it through. Blitzer does the photo but without the pan back and bullseye on Kerry way off in the back they show Fonda with the Bearded Hunk right next to her, making it seem like a bearded Kerry. Dirty Trick SNEAKY!

And, I'm not even a Kerry supporter and it has me steaming.

[Papa]

26. This is THE hot issue that Republicans are going to use now

I have a wingnut co-worker that's been sending me anti-Kerry stuff the last few days. He sent me some trash article from NewsMax, and some Veterans website link that goes way over the top in accusing Kerry of being anti-Vet, anti Military, etc...

Both articles were attacking Kerry and linking him to "Hanoi" Jane, and refering to his injuries in Nam as a way to get out. He was injured 3 times apparently and was able to get out of the military with 3 purple hearts. They played it off like he deserted his unit, then spoke out against the war while his buddies were still back in Nam. Just a bunch of crap the way it's written, full of inflammatory language spun to make you feel like Kerry is a weasel and traitor.

I was listening to AM radio last nite and ran across some right winger foaming at the mouth talking about Kerry and how Kerry was making outrageous accusations against what troops were doing in Vietnam...rape, torture, murder, etc... and said if Kerry had personal knowledge of these atrocities, he should provide information about them, etc..

Democrats need to push back hard on this crap.

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[leetrisck]

33. Easily found a photo & records of speeches

from Kerry's past long ago, but sure can't find those bush Guard records

[loudsue]

53. VERY WELL PUT!! Good point!!

They sure find what they want to WHEN they want to...especially if it points to someone else!

I'm sick of the whole lot of them, and Kerry's campaign aught to mention what you just did!

:kick:

[Emillereid]

44. Damn it -- I really did hang with Fonda for one whole day back in '71

Did a demo together, got 'arrested' or detained or whatever they called it at Fort Meade, Md together, were finger printed together, was stuck in a room with her for hours, were forever barred from entering Fort Meade together (my car too), went to an underground GIs against the war meeting with her and even had dinner together -- and I didn't even get a lousy photo. Jane Fonda is an exceptional woman -- I have nothing but the highest respect for her and her beautiful soul. John Kerry should be proud to have a picture of himself with Jane Fonda.

[KoKo]

81. Emillereid, that's a really neat personal rememberance of her! Thanks!

Hanoi Jane.....well, maybe I can understand some here who had some bad feelings and can't quite forgive her..but it's hard. Your view is nice to hear. They can forgive Limbaugh for not serving because of his butt problem but not Fonda. Well...Limbaugh didn't go there and do a photo op with the Viet Cong..but he was too bored with it to make the trip.
UGH.....how many others trash Fonda who never went there and saw what was going on?

[iowapeacechief]

45. "Hanoi Jane" smears are debunked at urbanlegends.about.com...

...and have been for years. Today the Kerry photo and related e-mail attack is their featured urban legend.

The main Fonda site is at
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa110399.htm

[KoKo]

52. Jane Fonda....at her best...in Barefoot in the Park with Redford.....

I had to do this. It's the story of my life with my husband. It's me in Greenwich Village....and whatever......I just had to do this.

I loved that movie and her...and lived in an apartment in the Village so like hers with neighbors like that...and my husband is the total Redford and I am the radical. Even in that movie she showed her spirit.

Just trying to put a "light note" in this thread which I started and has turned "Dark!"

[Nomad559]

54. Jane Fonda Defends John Kerry on CNN - Video

Jane Fonda

[shivaji]

57. Jane Fonda is as close to treason as one gets...wearing uniform of

viet-cong and mouthing invectives against our soldiers. She
could have protested the war without actively supporting the
enemy, but no...she had to aid and comfort the enemy, which is
the classic definition of treason.

I don't put Kerry in the same vile class as Hanoi Jane. He
simply protested the war, but went no where near the viet-cong.

[frustrated_lefty]

59. True.

Kerry isn't in that same class.

There are ways to protest. Rachel Corrie managed to travel to a troubled region and make her intent clear while earning a blaze of respect, admiration and even love from every person who heard her tale.

I have to wonder if folks would have equal respect were they to see an American, wearing an Iraqi uniform, cheering as the WTC toppled, or as a RPG blows another chopper out of the sky.

[KoKo]

85. But, Iraqi's weren't invoved in 9/11 Twin Towers. You mean Saudi Uniform

and I'm glad you mention Rachel Corrie here, because she's been forgotten. At one of the Iraq War demonstations I attended here in NC one person (just one) was going around with flyers asking us to petition the State Department for sanctions on Israel because Rachel was mowed down. Have you heard anything about Rachel's petition? Have you seen people wearing ribbons in memory of Rachel?

No, but everyone knows about Lacy Peterson's death, don't they. :-(

[KoKo]

61. Excuse Me......So what did the Viet Cong do wrong? Since Viet Nam was a

war of "agression" very similar to Iraq. Except that we took over for the French who had failed.

Are you telling me, you believe in the Nixon "Domino Theory" from the Cold War. Are you telling me we should have ever sent our soldiers int that place?

What? Is this a "rewrite of History, now?" :shrug:

[frustrated_lefty]

64. Similar to Iraq????

In the late 40's, early 50's, Ho Chi Minh proposed a Vietnamese "Declaration of Independence" based on the principles established in the US Declaration and asked for the US to recognize VietNam as a soveriegn nation. We refused. They turned to communists for support. We took over from the French after Dien Bien Phu in '52.

Not being a jerk here, but could you point out the similarities you perceive?

By the way, I'm not saying the Viet Cong did anything wrong at the outset of our involvement there, am just curious what similarities you perceive.

[KoKo]

66. We invaded a country based on false intelligence because of misguided

"Cold War Theory" that they world was going to go "Communist."

How would Viet Nam have ever been a threat to us any more than Iraq? In fact if you even wanted to believe that trumped up Bush Crime Family fake intelligence about Iraq, one would think in hindsight that Iraq WAS more potentially dangerous to us than Viet Nam! Did Viet Nam have suspected Nukes? Did our troops have to be outfitted with Gas Masks?

NO.....It was some kind of idiot frenzy trumped up by the "forerunners to today's PNAC'ers (Project for the New American Century) who believe that America Should become and Empire with Colonies all over the world subservient to our almighty power.

My ancestors didn't come to America to have this CRAP pushed at us again just like it was in England and France. I have blood of both countries in my veins. My ancestors left because they wanted opportunity away from this damned Colonialism and away from "Outsourcing of Jobs to Colonies."

Seems to me the Bushies are taking us WAY BACK to where and why some of us had to get the hell out of there...It never ends.

And Viet Nam was a disaster for our Country.....Give me proof that I'm wrong and every book exposing the lies that took us into Viet Nam and the blood of those shed and the trauma the US has suffered since was Worth It? GIVE ME PROOF!???????

[frustrated_lefty]

69. You mistake me

Viet Nam WAS a disaster for our country, in my opinion.

The only good things that came from that era were the song, "For What It's Worth," and the respect for our soldiers which has grown in retrospect.

I see dis-similarities. Viet Nam, we posited through cold-war logic, was a battleground against communism. What saddens me most about this is Viet Nam approached us first and tried to affiliate itself with democratic ideals. When Viet Nam subsequently turned to communist nations for support, we used the cold-war rationale.

The BIG difference I see is, Viet Nam approached us and ASKED for American involvement. Iraq was just doing its own thing, pretty much leaving us alone. It's not the same. We were wrong in both situations, but we were wrong for different reasons. Although you could make a good argument comparing the Gulf of Tonkin with the threat of WMD.

[KoKo]

73. But, I DO count "Gulf of Tonkin!" Robert Byrd talked about GOT! Biggest

mistake he ever made he said. And, we were marched into Viet Nam on false trumped up Ideology....of old men he same as with this war. "Old Men Make Wars for Young Men/Women to die in!!! Both wars are and were wrong...wrong....wrong reasons...wrong.

Plus, we took over VietNam from the French!....there was prior involvement and much machinations about that we are yet not privy to because it's lost in history of those "old men" making wars.

I know..I sound slightly hysterical over this. But, to argue the Viet Nam war over again and pit it against Iraq would require so much more time that DUer's interest would allow...

I go from a frame of reference from living through that time. I never wanted to see in my lifetime....another Viet Nam. Iraq to me is so similar...and the re-writing of history by the Repugs to make Viet Nam a "Good Thing" is too much for me to bear. Those who are too young to remember might go for it...but I want them to know THIS INVASION WAS WRONG....and how easy it is to get into these wars....because of LIES of OLD MEN with philosophies who only care about power...and a romantic fantasy of the glories of EMPIRE!

[frustrated_lefty]

82. Koko

I have not the heart to argue this, because you are right on this. The LIES of OLD MEN led us to war. :( And, yes, it happened again. That is a painful similarity.

My mom dated Viet Nam vets, and they, looking at the world I was growing up in, pulled me aside to talk about things they thought I should know as a growing man. It was an act of kindness, in their view.

One of these men was sunk neck deep in water with rats during his tenure. He grew a beard and never shaved it after that. He was trying to marry my mother, he showed me the scars and let me touch them, he was not lying. He may have been lying about this, but he told me he'd never let anybody explore the scars like that. He COMPLETELY lost it in our living room and went fetal after the shock. And he talked, sometimes, about coming home and having people spit on him, call him ugly names.

I cannot forgive Jane Fonda for spitting on men like this, I cannot do it. And yes, there is that similarity, the basing of war on lies.

[KoKo]

83. That must have been a terrible experience for you. I had a good friend a

couple of years behind me who was an honors student, and had won a complete college scholarship (first one in his family to go to college) and he got drafted, both his legs shot off... A great looking guy with wonderful personality....who had all the promise in the world. I compare him from a small Southern town, to Bush and Limbaugh and it makes me ill.

I never heard that Fonda spit on people, and my experience was that was a hyped up myth about soldiers being routinely spit on or trashed for serving. I didn't see it, but by the end of the war the FBI had infiltrated most of the War Protest Movements to try to stop them, and I wouldn't put it past them to have instigated the trashing of soldiers to give the blame to the Anti-war protestors. Much bad stuff was going on then and now that I see what the Repugs have done with dirty tricks since Nixon, I do believe that the spitting stories were blown out of proportion by psy-ops groups trying to trash innocent folks who wanted the killing to stop of our troops in Viet Nam.

I think, though that your Mom's friends honestly felt they were not welcomed because America didn't support that war. I wonder how our Iraq troops would be welcomed home,maimed and mentally tormented if there were the huge numbers as Viet Nam. But then, just as now, the sons of the rich and powerful are not there. And one by one they will drift home and who will really care in the end. Bush doesn't want to recognize them. Isn't that as bad as what happened to the Viet Nam vets.

That's why I protested every chance I could against this war. It's the suffering of those who won't be noticed because we at home didn't have to sacrifice for them. :-(

[bobbieinok]

67. similarities

VN - we see threat to US and attack (supposedly invited by south - that's another whole long story)

Iraq - we see threat to US and attack (supposedly invited by Iraq exiles)

WE're there because we think there's a threat and being John Wayne we act.

[frustrated_lefty]

70. Hmmm

"VN - we see threat to US and attack (supposedly invited by south - that's another whole long story)"

I disagree with the entire premise.

Viet Nam was portrayed as an indirect threat, a mediary of Soviet influence.

Iraq, we were told, could launch biological or chemical weapons against western europe (or maybe even the outskirts of the US) in 45 minutes, posing a direct threat.

This, I think, is quibbling. The single comparison I think may be validly made between Viet Nam and Iraq is that both conflicts became a quagmire with no apparent purpose.

[KoKo]

74. But both were defended staunchly based on intelligence and Dreams of

Glory to overcome what was perceived as a threat to the US Power in the world. And, neither were "imminent." And,once we were bogged down we spent more money and sent more soldiers and shed more blood and in the end...won nothing but lost honor because we went in their in the first place. I use "past tense" to cover both Wars because I think Iraq will be seen in the same light as VietNam. I hope to God we aren't in their for as many years with more thousands of our young folks lost. But, we may be. Since our mission is to "convert" the ME to Democracy. Just like we thought we would do with Viet Nam. Make it a centerpiece of Indo-China.

[frustrated_lefty]

87. I don't want to argue anymore.

Viet Nam sucked. It should never have happened. Jane Fonda....she was very wrong, and I don't care if she said "I'm sorry." Let her live with a recovering vet, then I may give her credence.

I don't ever want a repeat of this. We should learn from our mistakes.

[dsc]

62. The bearded guy was nothing short of hot

anyone would be glad to be mistaken for him. But the rest of the issue is crap.

[KoKo]

65. The bearded guy IS hot, but are you saying my post is trash?

:shrug:

[dsc]

68. No the issue around the picture is trash

I am not Kerry's hugest fan but this is just trash.

[frustrated_lefty]

71. It's trash

but Kerry and his supporters need to grow up and get used to dealing with it. Maybe they could stop "crying in their teacups?"

What annoys me most about Kerry supporters is they insist 'he's been through this for 30 years, he can deal with the attacks!' Fact is, he has only started to deal with this on a national stage. The man has not been vetted nationally.

If you guys think this is annoying and stupid and unproductive, realize this idiotic issue has drawn so much attention in the media BEFORE Kerry has the nomination, and it will probably influence some brain dead voters. This isn't even a "warning shot." This is a "what the hell, this is for fun" shot across the bow.

Mike Malloy said Kerry needs to grow a pair if he's going to deal with the repuke machinery. I think Malloy has a point.

[David Zephyr]

78. Get Off Of Jane Fonda' Courageous Back!

The War on Vietnam was illegal.

The United States "invented" South Vietnam.

The United States stopped the internationally agreed to national elections in Vietnam.

The United States assassinated the President of Vietnam.

Over 3 million Indo-Chinese died in their own land because of that illegal war by the United States against an agrarian peasant population.

Jane Fonda was not a traitor.

Richard Nixon and Lyndon Johnson were traitors and mass murderers.

The anti-war movement, like the movement against the War in Iraq, was about BRINGING THE TROOPS HOME....ALIVE.

The anti-war movement STOPPED the Vietnam War...not any goodness from the blackened hearts of Richard Nixon or Henry Kissinger.

Read the Pentagon Papers (that's the U.S. Pentagon, by the way) and then ask yourself if Jane Fonda did anything wrong.

[KoKo]

80. Well said David Zephyr. This thread turned into more about Viet Nam than

I had any idea it would. But, yes....that war lives on and on in our psyche. It's trashed folks who touch it with honesty and allowed those who live by lies to re-invent it for a new audience. The damned thing won't die because it was unjust. It will live until the last who remember it are dead. I think Iraq will be long with us as well. Those whose voices will cry up from their graves and the young who will have their lives scarred by this and live on to fight for the wrongs they rememember.

Plaid's article on front page, has some thoughts about this. The Cassandra factor that some of us see consequences of actions. The burden of that knowledge of "consequences of actions" makes us speak out when it would be so much easier to stay quiet. And, with Viet Nam so close in the experience and memory of our recent history....how could we do this again. :-(

[frustrated_lefty]

88. Were you even alive?

"The War on Vietnam was illegal.'
True.

"The United States "invented" South Vietnam."
False. If you really think that, you should study up more on the OSS which preceded the CIA.

"The United States stopped the internationally agreed to national elections in Vietnam."
Well, the US had a chance to support a Jeffersonian Declaration, but we refused.

Past that, you sucucmb to rhetoric.
For example, it is widely accepted protestors called Viet Nam Vets "baby killers," but you say "The anti-war movement, like the movement against the War in Iraq, was about BRINGING THE TROOPS HOME....ALIVE."

Is it safe to assume from this you are happy to criticize soldiers as agents of a repressive regime? Or do you support them? You are, after all, taking a stand, and not just spitting one them like Ms. Fonda, right?

[David Zephyr]

89. Alive And Active Against the War.

Yes, I organized a Moratorium Against the War in 1969 on my college campus and was active with the Students for a Democratic Society.

Anyway, thanks for agreeing that the Vietnam War was "illegal".

The U.S. did "invent" South Vietnam. I put the word "invent" in quotations within my referenced post since this is the very word that you will find in the Pentagon Papers regarding the creation of that false nation. And I am well versed on the OSS and the early CIA and Allen Dulles and have posted here at the DU extensively on the OSS and Early CIA activities from Iran, Guatemala, Vietnam, Cuba and more. If you would have checked the DU archives prior to making public a false assumption about me, you would have known this.

I am certain that one could find, if one searched hard and long enough and wanted to find, a current example of some idiotic protester against today's War in Iraq who has also called our soldiers "baby killers" and such. But, the fact is that those that marched before and have spoken out against the Iraqi War have been, for the most part, supportive of our troops and working to bring them home. This is the same thing that happened with Vietnam. The right-wing has been malicious in pointing to veterans a few cases of outrageous behavior by some Vietnam war protesters to hurt and wound them and to muddy the greater truth that the movement against the War was among other things, motivated to bring the soldiers home, to bring our brothers and sisters home...alive and whole.

This sort of dishonesty resembles your very own false accusations against me transparently couched within the pretentious form of questions where you maliciously insinuate that I "spit on soldiers like Ms. Fonda".

Perhaps I'll assume that you will apologize for such shamefully low language.

[KoKo]

86. A kick for the Viet Nam War comments. Some folks might be interested

in how deep the feelings still run pro and con about that War.

:kick: