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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:49 PM
Original message
Advertising on DU: An Experiment
About a week and a half ago, we got a call out-of-the-blue from Google. I usually blow-off unsolicited sales calls, but seeing as this one was from one of the must successful Internet companies on the planet, I was curious to find out why in the heck they were calling me.

It turns out that they were calling to talk to us about the Google AdSense program. We had tried the program briefly back in 2003 and discontinued using it because the ads were very poorly targeted, and the disruption to the site wasn't worth the paltry amount of money the ads were making for us. The Google sales rep on the phone assured us that the program has improved dramatically since we tried it three years ago, and she encouraged us to give it a try again. She claimed that we can probably get a significantly higher return on the ads than we did three years ago.

The sales rep quoted a cost-per-thousand impressions (CPM) that was surprisingly high. I must admit I am skeptical -- rates for Web advertising are notoriously low, and for discussion forum-based sites like ours they are usually well below average (somewhere in the neighborhood of one-tenth of the normal return for Web advertising). Still, the sales rep was sufficiently optimistic about our prospects that we feel it would be irresponsible if we did not at least try running the ads.

To give you some idea of what we're talking about here: If Google's best-case estimates turn out to be true, then we would never have to do another fundraiser on Democratic Underground. But if their low-end estimates turn out to be true, the ads would barely cover the rent on our office, and probably would not be worth the added annoyance to our visitors.

The only way for us to know for sure what kind of return we can get is to give it a try.

Over the next few weeks, we want to test out a number of different ad placements all over the Democratic Underground website to see what (if anything) works and what does not. It is very likely that the ads might seem annoying at first to some of you -- as is the case with any change we do around here -- and so we want to thank you in advance for your patience. I hope you understand that our intent is not to annoy. Our hope is that by experimentation we can find a happy medium where we can get a decent return for the ads, without overly antagonizing all of you, our visitors. Please understand that if we want this to work, the advertisements will have to be placed in fairly prominent areas of our site where people will see them; while you might prefer it if we clustered all the ads at the bottom of our pages, it would be pretty pointless from a fundraising perspective.

The DU Admins are well aware that people don't like seeing ads when they go to a website, and I'm sure many of you are wondering why we are doing this at all. Our current system has worked pretty well so far, and the last thing on earth we want to do is to annoy the people who have been donating for the last five and a half years years to keep this website online. We are deeply grateful for their help.

But it is a fact that this community exists because of the generosity of a small minority of visitors to the site. We get hundreds of thousands of unique visitors each month, but at any given time only a thousand people are actually contributing to keeping the site online. And it is worth noting that this is the only donor-funded organization I can think of that depends entirely on small donations. Since DU's launch in January 2001, we have received only two donations of a thousand dollars or more. We rarely receive a donation of more than one hundred dollars, and our average donation is about twenty dollars.

Now, we could try to squeeze all of you harder, but we really aren't comfortable doing that. Advertisements allow all of our visitors to help pay the bills. And if the ads are really successful, we might not need to raise quite as much money from voluntary donations -- and you all could donate your money to other worthy causes, like Democratic candidates or progressive non-profits.

But as I said, at this point we do not know if running ads will even make much of a difference to our bottom line. We appreciate your patience and understanding as we try these ads to find out if they will work for our community. Thank you so much.

Skinner, EarlG, Elad
DU Administrators
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. there's a class action lawsuit against them
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Xeric Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. I block all that stuff
WIth the customizegoogle extension for firefox. http://www.customizegoogle.com/
Privacy issues and all.
I'd stick to the fund raisers. Why depend on the corporatocracy?
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asthmaticeog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. It sounds to me like the sales rep was sky-bluing you, but...
...if it makes money for DU, I can live with the "added annoyance."
And really, as far as annoyance goes, I once read a chemtrails thread. I think I may now be unflappable.
I hope it works out better than it did a few years ago. Best o'luck.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. do you have any control over what is being advertised?
Edited on Wed May-24-06 01:05 PM by welshTerrier2
for example, i would hate to see ads for gas-guzzling, global-warming-creating SUV's ... or how about an ad for "join the military; help your country win the war on terror?"

i respect any efforts you make to help support this website as long as those efforts are generally consistent with the site's stated mission ...

unrestrained capitalism can be an insidious bedfellow ...
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. We have some control.
We can block ads after the fact. So, if something shows up that is distasteful, we can block it and it should stop showing in a few hours.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. it would be great to keep the "journals" ad free ...
hope you'll consider this ...
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. If that's the case...I don't personally see a problem

I'm a pragmatic and Machiavellian far-left fringie.

As old uncle Vladamir once said. (And he's probably not the best person to quote and this is probably not the best example of pragmatism).

"I would dine with the devil himself to save our revolution."
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I remember back when you were using them before
and some of the ads that would show up on the website. You were right to discontinue them back then but if you can test them out for a short trial period perhaps this is another great way for us to raise money.

Main thing is to keep the site going.

But don't give up the fundraisers - Romeo is going to probably need a trip to the Betty Ford Clinic for his Snaugages addiction. That stuff doesn't come cheaply :D
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Does taking ads change your legal status?
I assume you are operating as a 501 something and that you file a 990T for the ad income you get now.

What happens when the site becomes advertiser supported?

At what point is it considered advertiser supported?

I wish one of the DU lawyers would chime in and say all will be well.

In any case, good luck with the new approach.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Democratic Underground is a for-profit LLC.
Ads won't change our legal status.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Great - Then may the profits roll in! I work w/non-profits and forgot
you can set up a for profit site!

Good Luck

:-)
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. I would put a procedure in place beforehand to deal with objections...
Edited on Wed May-24-06 03:07 PM by LoZoccolo
...that would prevent them from becoming drawn-out battles staged in General Discussion. There was a protracted struggle at Daily Kos over an ad that featured a pie fight between two women (I think it was an ad for the Gilligan's Island movie). Then some people went and splintered off to make a blog that kept talking about the pie fight and what it's presence on Daily Kos meant.

http://womenkossacks.blogspot.com
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. skinner -- if it makes money for you and du -- i'll be HAPPY
deal with it or put up with it or whatever -- i don't care.

i'm just grateful for this place.
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. I agree with xchrom!
Whatever is best for DU!
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. If it means that DU continues and that the Admin gets the ...............
.....recognition and wages they deserve then let's give it a try for a while. But I must admit that non-advertisement feature sure is nice. In the meantime I'll see about upping my donation a little bit.
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Monk06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. Here's an idea Skinner. In addition to in page advertizing.........

give posters the option of sponsoring the advertiser
by using an ad as an avatar.

The hit rate would be fantastic, you would generate
unique views and solid viewer data so you could
negotiate premium rates after a time.

Also offer donor functionality to posters who sponsor
ads. I would sponsor an ad-vatar to get full access to
the forums and site functionality.

I'm willing to bet that you would turn lurkers into
members with such an approach and increase membership.
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Karmakaze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
14. An idea....
Would it be possible to have the ads only show up for the people who havent donated? Or perhaps a donation limit - like if you donate over 100 dollars you will have DU ad free?

I have no problem with ads showing up on DU because I have always wanted to donate but have been financially unable. If I can earn DU some money by viewing and clicking on ads then I'm all for it.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. We have discussed doing this.
At this point, we're not sure. But we are definitely considering it.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. As an advertiser
I was personally SHOCKED at the very low click-thru rate, and search rate even, with Google ads. As I guess you know by now, your search traffic comes from people searching for DemocraticUnderground much more than democratic forum. So if the advertising is based on generic search phrases, I'd bet on the low-end of the spectrum.

I personally think straight sales is the best revenue stream online. That or going nonprofit with a great big benefactor and paying yourselves fair salaries for what you do.

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Wheres The Beef Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. Advertising on the INTERNETS?
I'm shocked. Don't you remember Canter & Siegel? This has been tried before and is doomed to fail!
www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/199406/msg00044.html

(Just trying to fan up an old flame war)
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EarlG ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
21. We've started Stage One - more information here
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