Why is homophobia so hard for some to see?

[Behind the Aegis]

I see comments like, "well, I am just not interested in seeing a love story between two men," and "I didn't see it (like some of those who were supposed to vote for Best Picture), but "Crash" was better."

How can one movie be 'better" than a film that you didn't see? How can you say the direct reason you didn't see a movie is because it makes you 'uncomfortable' or is 'not your thing' and still be objective?

If a poster here said, "I don't want to watch "Guess Who is Coming to Dinner?" because it is about interracial love," because they are not "interested in seeing a love story between a Black person and white person," they would be branded a racist! So, why are we holding up a different standard when discussing a "gay love story?"

Best Picture was voted on by people who only saw 4 of the 5 films, because the other, "Brokeback Mountain" didn't interest them! In my eyes, "Crash" beat out three other films, but we will never really know if it deserved the Oscar.

I saw "Crash" and it was OK. A great diversity training film, but "Best Picture," no.

[FreedomAngel82]

1. Here's a simple concept for you

Maybe the storyline didn't intrest them? Maybe they didn't care to see it? Or maybe they don't have time or money to waste to see a film they might not like and that money could have gone towards something they do need like new shoes? You can't say anything unless you've walked in the other person's shoes.

[Syrinx]

4. FreedomAngel

I've chatted with you in the forums a little, and have enjoyed it. But why are you so concerned about the stupid Oscars?

[Behind the Aegis]

6. You can't say anything unless you've walked in the other person's shoes.

When you walk in the shoes of a gay person, you do let me know!

[FreedomAngel82]

58. So by the concept you're going you're rascists then

[Behind the Aegis]

65. That makes no sense.

[T Town Jake]

100. I'm not interested in "walking" in a freepers "shoes"...

...does that mean I can't say anything mean about them? Or is that "different"?

Just curious.

[Behind the Aegis]

102. You plan on denying them rights?

You plan on espousing lies and half-truths about them?

What a piss-poor "example."

:eyes:

[T Town Jake]

104. Nope: just curious about your own limits on this...

..."walking in their shoes" business.

It appears rather shallow, given your ad hominen non-answer, complete with an "moving the goalposts" analogy.

Your "answer," such as it is, has been noted.

[Behind the Aegis]

105. as has your non-avoidance of the real issue...

[T Town Jake]

106. Which is a cute, if smarmy, way of saying:

I CAN'T ANSWER WITHOUT APPEALING TO LOGICAL IRRELEVANCIES.

Nice...:eyes:

[Behind the Aegis]

107. yeah...

You started with a non-issue based on a real issue, but had you actually read the post I was replying to, you might better understand the point I was trying to make.

Bigotry OK with you?

[T Town Jake]

108. Ah, and the penultimate logical fallacy of...

..."Bigotry OK with you?", aka "have you quit beating your wife/husband/spouse?" is at last trotted out...the last gasp of those unable to debate within the parameters of intelligence.

Good stuff: it only took you three replies to descend to that silly intellectual basement. The freepii would be proud...

[Behind the Aegis]

109. And you, with the condesending and name-calling...

Why don't you actually read the thread. The statement actually came from the first post, to which I replied when she walked in "gay's shoes" she should let me know. Since it was HER claim that one walk in another's shoes to understand them. Then you insert your non-sense bit about "freepers," as if the implication was "if you can place yourself in the shoes of others, then bigotry" is OK. Talk about lack of logic...but then again, I am sure your 'superior' intellect can see that. :eyes:

[T Town Jake]

111. I understand...really I do...

...when one has failed to convince on the merits, the anger comes first; the lashing out soon follows. When that doesn't work, the "explanations" are usually not far behind: almost all of them in the tone of pleeze mister/misses/person, actually read the thread!, which is shorthand for "I've dug myself a hole I can't argue my way out of, but still want that last face-saving word. Help!"

Got it. By all means proceed; I'll let you have it. I'm a nice guy that way.

[Erika]

9. O'Reilly & Olbermann

And you're not Olbermann.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigbrother05]

15. Think there is a distinction between the viewing public

and the Academy voters. If I'm not mistaken, all people allowed to vote for the best picture are sent videos/dvds of the nominated films. If a voter was unwilling to watch a nominated film and publicly said so, it would seem appropriate for them to be removed from the Academy voter rolls. If a person has such a cavalier attitude about the industry that pays their rent, maybe they need to get in another line of work.

The viewing public is under no obligation to go to any movies at all. These are industry awards, we (the viewing public) only vote with our wallets. That's why George Lucas cries himself to sleep each night in his multimillion dollar estate.

[crispini]

51. Apparently there's not that much of a distinction.

Rumor has it that a LOT of Academy voters didn't see it either ... because of ... wait for it...

Given that it's Oscar time, I nominate the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences for Best Bunch of Hypocrites. That’s because this year’s dirty little secret is the anecdotal evidence pouring in to me about hetero members being unwilling to screen Brokeback Mountain. For a community that takes pride in progressive values, it’s shameful that Hollywood’s homophobia may be on a par with Pat Robertson’s.

Despite the hype you’re reading in the press and on the Internet about Brokeback, with its eight nominations, being the supposed favorite to take home the Best Picture Oscar on March 5, Crash could end up winning. The issue isn’t which film is better. The issue is more like which movie was seen by the Academy. Frankly, I find horrifying each whispered admission to me from Academy members who usually pose as social liberals that they’re disgusted by even the possibility of glimpsing simulated gay sex. Earth to the easily offended: This movie has been criticized for being too sexually tame. Hey, Academy, what are you worried about: that you’ll turn gay or, worse, get a stiffie by just the hint of hunk-on-hunk action?

...more...
http://www.laweekly.com/deadline-hollywood/12564/how-gay-will-oscar-go/

[blondeatlast]

82. All members are sent "screener" versions of the BP nominees,

as well as others.

They have no need whatsoever to publicly viewany of the nominees. I'm surprised that the LA Weekly author didn't mention/isn't aware of this.

[Inland]

118. That doesn't even qualify as a rumor.

One guy in a column doesn't even qualify as an unsubstantiated rumor.

I'll just leave it with what Roger Ebert said, who has both review, industry and liberal credentials:

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060306/OSCARS/603070301

******
Yes, and more than one critic described "Crash" as "the worst film of the year," which is as extreme as saying John Kerry was a coward in Vietnam. It means you'll say anything to help your campaign.

What is intriguing about these writers is that they never mention the other three best picture nominees: "Capote," "Good Night, and Good Luck" and "Munich." Their silence on these films reveals their agenda: They wanted "Brokeback Mountain" to win, saw "Crash" as the spoiler, and attacked "Crash." If "Munich" had been the spoiler, they might not have focused on "Crash." When they said those who voted for "Crash" were homophobes who were using a liberal movie to mask their hatred of homosexuals, they might have said the same thing about "Munich."

This seems simply wrong. Consider Finke's "anecdotal evidence" that puts Hollywood's homophobia on a par with Pat Robertson's. Pat Robertson? This is certainly the most extreme statement she could make on the subject, but can it be true? How many anecdotes add up to evidence? Did anyone actually tell her they didn't want to see the movie because it was about two gay men?

My impression, also based on anecdotal evidence, is that the usual number of academy voters saw the usual number of academy nominees, and voted for the ones they admired the most. In a year without "Brokeback Mountain," Finke, Turan and many others might have admired "Crash." Or maybe not. But it's a matter of opinion, not sexual politics.
**********

[SaveElmer]

73. Well here it is...

Some men just do not want to see two men kissing. Doesn't mean they are homophobic, it just makes them uncomfortable. I agree, that if you are going to be voting on a best picture nomination you have an obligation to see all the films regardless of how uncomfortable you might be, or you should abstain.

[Inland]

99. Or read the book and thought it sucked.

Actually, listened to it on CD, in my case. It. Was. Slow. Slow. Slow. Long. Slow. When I heard it described as a "short story", it made me wonder if it was the longest short story ever.

The addition of interaction with the wives was new to the movie, might have made it better. I'll catch it on cable someday.

[fishwax]

101. you said: I love men and don't have any plan of changing

as an explanation for why you didn't think you can relate to the movie. You didn't start out talking about not liking the storyline or needing money for shoes, you started out downgrading the film specifically because the gay-love aspect of the film. You should not have been surprised when people found that homophobic.

[David Zephyr]

136. And you shouldn't say anything until you've seen the film you comment on.

You say: "You can't say anything unless you've walked in the other person's shoes."

Likewise, why are you commenting on a film that you refuse to see?

[Syrinx]

2. if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a noise?

Of course it does. I've always hated that question. It's non-sensical. I think I'm agreeing with you, by the way. ;)

[Bluebear]

3. 'diversity training film'

Indeed. It was a good movie but I didn't leave the theatre thinking "Wow, there is one for the ages!"

[Behind the Aegis]

10. That is how I felt.

It was interesting, touching in parts, and a great training piece that anyone can harbor 'racist' feelings, no matter their skin color.

The greatest irony of the film...the Iranian mother being upset that people could not distinguish between an Arab and a Persian...played by a GREEK actress!

[bliss_eternal]

37. I didn't even see it...

Being interracially married and confronting the issues of race daily in life and on these boards is enough for me. I get tired of the psa (public service announcement) toned films that for some of us is rather "been there, done that."

I lived through the Rodney King verdict and the ensuing riots. I've seen gf's nurse their bf's wounds after getting their asses kicked by the LAPD BEFORE Rodney King. We knew that shit was going on for years, no one ever caught it on tape before then.

I've been given ethic theme based gifts by my ignorant in-laws that wouldn't dare bother to think I might be a person with interests outside of my etnicity. I've had people talk to my husband, but refuse to acknowledge me in any way--or people that assume we aren't together...

I wept watching Katrina knowing the ugly truth too many here didn't want to acknowledge.

My life has been about dealing with racism and bigotry on an intimate basis, I don't need Crash to know these realities.

Though I'm sure it's a fine film and will probably see it eventually. LOL!

[Behind the Aegis]

39. I can't speak to your reality...but you really should see it.

We are buds and I give you a big :hug: right now. You should see this movie. It is a little trite in some places, but it does expose some greater realities (that you will already understand, but imagine the impact on those who don't).

There were parts that made me so mad, then in the next moment I cried. Of course you know me, so you know I am a sap. It isn't a "10," but it is worth a view...personally, i'd like to know what you think after viewing it.

[iconoclastNYC]

83. Did you see crash? Did you think that about Crash?

I saw Crash and I thought it was gimmicky.

[KurtNYC]

126. I may be L.A.-phobic

Lived through the 3 days of burning, looting and gun fire after the LAPD verdicts in April of 1992. I have video of the news coverage from those days that I have yet to look at. "Falling Down" was the first big movie to come out after the Rodney King trial that looked at the enormous racial tensions in Los Angeles and I barely made it through that movie (and it wasn't worth it). Seriously I think I have a mild form of PTSD when it comes to Los Angeles -- the sound of bursts of machine gun fire especially freaked me out. My point, I guess, is that I would probably not want to watch Crash.

[Erika]

5. We are slowly moving acceptance levels up, very slowly

At one time, racial intermarriage was forbidden and black children could not be legally educated. All in the name of God and righteousness.

Now, it is that gays peeped out of the closet but the right wingers shoved them back in and gave them bloody noses in the process. All again, in the name of God and righteousness.

Now, it's almost ok to be black, but not gay. All in the name of God and righteousness. Crahs won, BBM did not. Homophobia.

[FreedomAngel82]

8. Right

Wasn't there a movie where Jews were involved? I can't recall which one now but that didn't win, so does that mean they're anti-Semitic too?

[Che_Nuevara]

33. Munich was nominated for a couple.

It's not surprising, though, that the academy was afraid to make a political statement.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. So you agree that BBM lost for political reasons?

[Wetzelbill]

7. I wouldn't say that's necessarily racist

some people just aren't interested in seeing a love story about a black person and a white person. The same as some people may not be interested in seeing a story about going to outerspace. I'm not all that interested in seeing a gay love story. Not really. Not because I have anything against gay people, I have gay friends. It just doesn't interest me all that much. I'll watch it anyway because it's obviously a great movie and I'm an Ang Lee fan. Now if people are spouting racist or homophobic things well that would definitely fall into that category. If somebody said, I'm not interested in seeing a gay love story because it's not natural and they are going to hell. Well that's blatantly homophobic. I don't doubt that a lot of homophobia is hidden. This is a film that makes people uneasy. I would say, and I am a serious film watcher, I have written and worked on some projects, that "Crash" is a whole lot more than a diversity training film. You're opinion is that it's only that, so you dismiss the award that it won. Crash is a worthy winner, just as Brokeback Mountain would have been. Maybe Brokeback Mountain is better, maybe it isn't. It all boils down to somebody's opinion. You know, I'm a minority, I felt "Crash" was as strong a film that has ever been made on those topics.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. "I wouldn't say that's necessarily racist"

That is true. There are certain genres I don't care to see. However, if someone were to tell you they didn't want to see an interracial love-story (but you know this person loves love story genres), wouldn't this give you pause?

I don't dismiss it's (Crash's) award, but, IMO, it was a 'so-so' movie, much better for diversity training than a (stealing this line from another poster) "movie for the ages."

[Wetzelbill]

14. it might, depends on what else they say

along with it. I'd definitely be skeptical if someone said that. See diversity training, that's just an ugly way to say it. It makes it sound like learning about racism is an exercise. It's much more than that.

I never thought "Crash" would win the Academy Award when I first saw it. It's powerful, but the main flaw to me, was it was too ambiguous. I like ambiguity, but not that much. Something more needs resolving, imo. That it did win, I think, is a good thing. I believe it is worthy, but I can't say which is better since I haven't watched all of the nominated films. Really, I don't care who won though. Either way Brokeback Mountain is going to stand the test of time and be remembered. It's a definitive cultural benchmark. And, will be remembered as a challenging, enlightening film that came along at a deeply regressive time in our country's history. An award is just an award. Lots of the greatest films ever never won Best Picture. That hasn't stopped them from having a legacy, and Brokeback has lasting legacy written all over it.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Interesting.

"See diversity training, that's just an ugly way to say it." Can you explain why that is "an ugly way to say it?" As someone who has spent the majority of his career doing just that, I was very pleased with the movie and thought of a number of ways it could be used to educate. I know you that you say it sounds "like learning about racism is an exercise," but for some, it is just that! You wouldn't believe some of the things I have heard as I have taught about diversity, especially racism!

Like you, I didn't see all the films, but as a gay person, the idea that a film that showed us as loving and not victims or AIDS infected or drag queens (not that any of those groups don't deserve recognition), would have been MONUMENTAL! In all honesty, it was about bisexuality, another maligned group, from both gays and straights. The idea that loving someone other than an accepted heterosexual partner, could have been the "Best Picture," made me very hopeful. But, alas, denied again.

[Wetzelbill]

31. I get

what you mean by it now. Initially, I thought you were using it in a dismissive manner. As in it was ONLY a diversity training exercise. It seemed so devoid of emotion. I get what you mean now. I think we were just crossing signals or something.

No doubt it would have been monumental. However, don't be disheartened that it never won the award. The film is already monumental, moreover, it probably will go down in history as a major snub. More people will be talking about it over the years as a result. It's going to resonate and it's going to have a legacy. Whether it won this award or not, it is what it is and will be remember for it's place in culture and in history. It's a major step either way. Just a few years ago people actually made fun of films like this. The "gay cowboys eating pudding" joke was predominant when refering to indie films. That Brokeback was able to lift itself to this height is both in the strength of the material and the progression of ideas. It's importance cannot be understated I feel. And, none of that has to do with it winning this award or not. The film is much bigger than that. It would have been nice for it to win, when I first heard of it, I secretly thought how great it would be for a film like that to get serious recognition. It's surpassed that now. The message in this film has legs. It's a big deal and will stay one for quite some time.

[Behind the Aegis]

36. Glad we are on the same wavelength now.

I never dismiss the opportunity to educate on diversity issues! I want to use "Undercover Brother" for diversity training because it satirizes Black stereotypes (and it is a damn funny movie).

Although BBM didn't win the big prize, Ang Lee is the FIRST Asian-American to win best director! That is a plus in my book!

Your other points are very good and I agree with them.

(For those that may think I think "Crash" shouldn't be seen, you are WRONG! You SHOULD see it! It is very disturbing! It is very real! And, it is where we are in this day and age! I don't think it is a great movie, but I have made many a people watch it because it is significant.)

[Filibuster]

95. Homophobia is an illness, not a choice!

I mean really? Where is the tolerance in demonizing those people who really are homophobic? I mean, it's not like they're choosing to be that way! It's just the way they're wired. You can't hold them accountable for your movie not "winning".

Something worth considering at the very least.

[NMMNG]

112. Homophobia, like any other vile prejudice

Is a learned hatred for a group of people for one or more qualities they posess or are thought to posess. It is not an inborn trait. No child is inherently afraid of homosexuals--they have to be trained by others to be that way. Adults who were not formerly homophobic can become such by learning it from others and/or propaganda.

Hate is not hardwired.

[Wetzelbill]

123. yes, I think you have it right

I'm from a pretty naturally conservative area. I was raised on an Indian reservation, in a small town Montana farm community. I was always taught to think homosexuality was bad, not that my parents taught me to be that way or anything, but the attitude in those communities are anti-anything different anyway. A black person in our town is practically front page news. Being called "gay" or "Queer" or "fag" is an ultimate insult. One of my neighbors has a gay son who came out to him a few decades ago and I don't even think they have spoken since. This family has been our family's neighbors for 30 years or so and I couldn't even tell you the son's name.

I have friends who were talking about gay bashing one day a few years ago. Just out of nowwhere they were talking about if they met a gay guy they'd just beat the shit out of him for no reason other than that. These aren't really evil people otherwise, pretty average in most ways. But the level of ignorance and fear is astounding. I've been tolerant of gay people as far as I can recall, but not embracing. I have lived my life with a certain amount of homophobia. When I first went to college in Seattle in '99, my dad told me not to talk to any "queers." He was concerned that I might meet gay people. Ok, this guy is a lifelong Dem, not racist at all or anything, probably the most loyal and unassuming person I have ever met. He's decent to a fault. But horribly ignorant about homosexuality. He didn't say that with hate, because I know he respects a gay man who is a nurse in our neighboring town and took care of my youngest brother while he was sick one time. He said that because he was worried about the typical hate-images that gay people are saddled with. That they are dirty, diseased and incestuous. Most people back home have that image of them, and likely none of them have really known any gay people either. Not really.

I know people who are just feminine acting or maybe if they are female sort of masculine and they are shunned socially in many ways. Made fun of behind there backs etc. At the very least. For me, I was always led to believe it was something that was out of the ordinary and not natural. To be tolerated, if you were a good person, but never accepted of embraced. I have nothing against anybody. I have always been a tolerant person. However, I don't think tolerance is enough. I'm a religious person, but even if I wasn't, I would recognize that Jesus Christ is someone that we should listen to. Jesus Christ wasn't a tolerant individual. He was not a hate-monger either. That's where fundies err, in my judgment. They don't understand his message, or what he was about. They don't live by the Beatitudes, but choose to accept a vengeful, hateful God. Not a loving caring one. Jesus was an embracing individual, he didn't hate or tolerate sinners or people who were poor or different or oppressed. He embraced them. That's important. So over the years as I made some gay friends and learned to see that they are good people just like anybody else, my penchant for tolerance faded away. Much as my natural ignorance did. So I had to unlearn much of what I grew up feeling uncomfortable about. Thank God, I was lucky enough to do that, you know?

So yeah, I think people are made to be homophobic or racist, because of ignorace, fear, hatred or any number of bad reasons. It's something that is ingrained, but the good thing is if a person finds it in themselves to change, they can open their minds and learn to undo that damage to their psyche.

[NMMNG]

129. You provide a very accurate description

of how homophobia can be instilled in individuals and a community. You also made an incredibly important statement:

So yeah, I think people are made to be homophobic or racist, because of ignorace, fear, hatred or any number of bad reasons. It's something that is ingrained, but the good thing is if a person finds it in themselves to change, they can open their minds and learn to undo that damage to their psyche.

People can indeed change, if they want to. Prejudice and hatred need not be permanent.

Peace.

[Wetzelbill]

130. right on

:)

[markam]

141. Exactly

I have no interest in seeing a gay love story. I don't care if people are into men, women or dogs. I happen to (very much) like women, and would not find a story about 2 men interesting, no matter how good the writing, directing or acting.

I also would never read a romance novel, or go to a rap concert. They don't interest me, so I don't do them.

[burrowowl]

11. Brokeback mountain made

me cry (I'm lesbian 59 the years lost because of fear) Crash made me think and discuss and cry (the good cop who killed the Black and then disposed of the body).
Both were excellent films.

[Wetzelbill]

18. I was shocked

at how he killed the black kid. It just blew me away. It was so sudden, and you realized how quickly things can go wrong. On the other hand, his former partner saving the woman he assaulted. That was extremely powerful I thought. Interesting film. All around. I have yet to see Brokeback Mountain, so I can't comment on it. I love Ang Lee though, and am a fan of the cinematographer, Rodrigo Prieto, as well as the cast members.

[FreedomAngel82]

61. And that changed him too

I think that was the moment he realized how his actions were towards people and first impressions etc. He really changed after that. Matt Dillion did a great job with that role.

[bliss_eternal]

13. The same reason some here want to say rap should not exist

and isn't music. Because their personal world experience isn't affected by what happens within the gay community or the black community or any other community that is different from their own.

Because they fail to see that when one of us is denied rights, we all are.

I absolutely hate times like this on DU. When some of our members are hurting about something and other members fail to recognize that and are dismissive of the issues that create that hurt. I saw it during the Roberts nomination, during the Alito nomination, during Katrina, prior to the Tookie Williams execution and I see it tonight regarding Brokeback Mountain.

I don't like it when I see it, and maybe it is annoying to others that I call them on it. I don't care. We are supposed to be a community that cares, not tells others "...oh, that doesn't matter," Or "It's not really the way you see it."

To all members telling the gay DU'ers that what they feel is homophobia is not--try being gay first and then we'll talk. To all members acting like your outrage over a rap song winning the best song Oscar isn't about race--you try being black first and then we'll talk.

:mad::grr:

[Bluebear]

16. Bravo.

:hug:

[bliss_eternal]

19. ...

Thank you. :pals: :hug: Sorry to rant...I'm just sick of it.

[FreedomAngel82]

17. So let me get this straight

if I'm not interested in the storyline that means I'm a bigot now? Even though I do my part to help with gay rights? I guess that doesn't mean anything but whether or not I care for a particular movie does. I got you.

[bliss_eternal]

21. Whaaaat?

What are you talking about? Are your responding to me, or reacting to something that has happened on another thread tonight?

I think you know we are friends. I would never say anything to hurt you. I didn't say anything about someone not wanting to see a movie or interest in storylines. I'm not sure what you're talking about...

:shrug:

[bliss_eternal]

24. For the record--

my response was to the original post, not yours Freedom Angel. I only went back just now and saw your response.

My response was based on what the original poster asked, and my experiences on the board tonight in particular--but also in the past when race, feminism and sexuality have come up and others choose to treat those in these populations like second class citizens that don't matter.

I'm sorry you seem to think otherwise.

[readmoreoften]

115. You deny hate crimes against gays. That means you're a homophobe.

I don't care that you don't think that Brokeback should've won Best Picture. There are gay people who agree with you. But you've thrown out a not-stop litany of anti-gay remarks. How can someone who denies the existence of hate crimes in America or tells DUers to stop "playing the victim" when they discuss the realities of their lives-- how can you help with gay rights?

For someone who claims to be a Christian, you have a huge plank in your eye.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. Hi friend!!

Are you serious? There was outrage at the "It's Hard Out Here for a Pimp" song winning?! Granted, I was pulling for Dolly, well, we just love our Dolly!!! :)

I have to admit, I was a little taken aback by some the comments about "Brokeback Mountain." I wasn't really surprised considering my other "hobby."

This idea that the left is free of prejudice and bigotry is a real problem!

[bliss_eternal]

22. Hi You!

I'm totally serious...pm me and I'll send you a link (if you're interested). I didn't really care who won, but I was surprised How for a Pimp took the prize. I wasn't mad the rap song won. I was surprised, as I frankly thought the Academy was way too uptight to allow something like that to win. LOL!

There were some really nasty comments made about it. Some even said it (rap) isn't music and should go away because and I quote, "...rappers don't play instruments and can't sing." :eyes:

But I'm the asshole for calling them on their bigotry. Whatever!

[Bluebear]

23. I remember when "Theme from Shaft" won for best song.

You never heard such a caterwauling from my bigoted parents. I liked Bless the Beasts and the Children better too, but Shaft winning was a benchmark. I think gay people hoped BBM would be a similar benchmark. Then you have supposed Democrats saying "gay rights: too much, too soon" and you kind of get discouraged that things will ever change.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. You fucking nailed it!

"Then you have supposed Democrats saying "gay rights: too much, too soon" and you kind of get discouraged that things will ever change.

I was just as surprised in some of the "Katrina" threads to....however, most turned out to be trolls, thankfully!

[bliss_eternal]

30. You didn't read long enough--

lol. during katrina.

Some of the same people that denounced that racism had anything to do with the Katrina aftermath were the same people tonight saying that this was so horrible...

I wish it were a coincidence, but I don't think it is. :(

And yes, I yelled at the screen a few times. LOL!

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Like yelling at the screen is a bad thing.

:)

I am glad to see, even with some whom I normally don't agree (not you....you know what I am talking about), that this issue is important.

If we, as a group, cannot confront and take on our own "demons," then we are in for a heap of trouble!

[FreedomAngel82]

62. The Oscars are about movies not politics!

[bliss_eternal]

28. We actually discussed Shaft some this evening...

I wondered in a post if some of the more conservative members of society (from both parties--lol) were outraged that a black man dressed in chains of bondage (symbolically) won for best song. I can only imagine the uproar about that. How dare this man win best song, when he talks through almost most of the song, it's long--very instrumental, and considered r&b/funk...what is the world coming to? :eyes:

I agree, it is disheartening to feel your rights are wedge issues to other progressives that haven't had the great misfortune to be born a woman, with brown skin or gay.

They let them make their little movie...why do they need something like THAT to win an award?! :sarcasm:

Maybe Hollywood will come around when they actually allow gay people to portray gay people in film and on tv. Then again, maybe not... :eyes:

[FreedomAngel82]

63. Gay people aren't protrayed on tv?

Uh whatever. A few soaps have gay people on tv. The show Susan Lucci is on has a gay girl on there and has for years now and the show "Passions" has a gay couple on there and a gay girl on there. That's just ridiculous.

[bliss_eternal]

67. (sigh)...

Is it really necessary for you to be so nasty toward me and my comments.

I've made a few attempts to communicate with you on this thread and attempt to understand your stance, yet what do I get in return.

I'm not going to address your comments regarding my post, as I'm taken aback by your choice to be so snarky and nasty toward me.

It's a tad discouraging that you get angry with others for taking comments out of context, yet you have done the same with me on a couple of occasions on this thread. That's your right, but I really don't appreciate your tone or comments.

Nice...

[bliss_eternal]

69. dupe post

Sorry...

[Wetzelbill]

26. Eminem won a few years ago for "Lose Yourself"

so they aren't all that uptight sometimes. Just depends on the issue I guess. :)

I knew they were going to win. I just had a feeling the rap song would do it. :)

[bliss_eternal]

29. I remember that--

but I don't recall all the outrage I saw tonight on these boards. To be fair, it could be because I wasn't in a position to hear others' outrage when that happened. Or it could be because Eminem is white and not really considered one of those 'thuggish, black rap guys.'

:shrug:

[Wetzelbill]

34. yeah I wasn't online then either

the reaction to all of this is really perplexing to me. DU can get pretty hostile sometimes.

Eminem is an interesting figure. A white guy who raps and is more than just a novelty. The whitening of rap helps ease the pain of bigots who hate that their kids listen to a predominant black genre of music. So you may be on to something with regards to Eminem not being a "thuggish, black guy." You and I see the sickness of thinking that way, but all too many people out there actually take credence in that. We live in an odd time, lots of good and bad. We have made a great amount of progress over the decades, but sometimes as a result of that progress, some people think that issues like racism are obsolete now. Willful ignorance. :)

[Lerkfish]

71. is it ok with you if I don't like rap music?

just checking. I like R&B, though. I like fusion jazz and funk and blues. Does that redeem me in your eyes? Do you have to make drastic character judgements of people because they have differing tastes in entertainment?

[bliss_eternal]

91. You don't need my permission or approval.

I certainly don't need yours, so why ask such a question?

Oh and as for this--
Quote:
Do you have to make drastic character judgements of people because they have differing tastes in entertainment?

If you bother to read my comments, and take a moment to attempt to understand them in their entirety, as opposed to taking a few passages out of context and making flippant remarks about them, you wouldn't need to ask such a question. You seem to be the only one here that came to such a conclusion.

I stand by what I said. If you care about the source of my comments, seek out the threads (in the lounge) about those calling for the abolishment of rap because a rap song won an Oscar.

Your personal taste in music is not relevant or of my personal concern. Thanks for sharing, just the same. :eyes:

[Maven]

84. Well said, expresses the source of anger perfectly.

I feel better after reading your post. :hug:

[bliss_eternal]

92. Hey Harvey--

:hug::hi: Thank you, that was very kind of you to say...

[cboy4]

87. Thank you so much for this post. Your final paragraph is a gem....

And I absolutely feel your hurt and frustration over the rap issue.

It's sad, but I've learned more about DU in the past 24 hours than I have in four years and I'm so disappointed.

[bliss_eternal]

93. Hi cboy--

I feel your pain, and disappointment. Be encouraged, though. I've had far more positive interactions regarding these issues than negative ones. Don't let it get you down. :hug::pals:

What absolutely cracks me up is the fact that I'm not even what I would consider a fan of current rap music. LOL! But I will defend it's right to exist--I don't have to like something to deem it as such. That seems to be a rare opinion around here this last 24 hours or so...

:hi: Thank you for sharing your feelings with me about my post--I really do appreciate your kind words!

[0007]

38. Screw the Osars.....'tis all a matter of opinion and who has the

big stick.

[Skittles]

40. I saw all five of those movies

I pronounce Good Night and Good Luck superior to the rest!!!

[donheld]

41. Same reason too many can't see racism.

They just really don't want to. We have someone with us at DU who is judging movies without having all the evidence. So too we have far too many in our society who can't see homophobia/racism etc. because they will not look at all the evidence. They don't want to see the truth.

[rman]

42. what has that got to do with homophobia?

of course homophobia exists - in certain RW circles.

but prefering one movie over another is not it.

[Behind the Aegis]

43. It doesn't exist on the left? n/t

[QC]

48. There's plenty of homophobia on the left,

as the past few hours on DU demonstrate. Sure, it's not usually the in-your-face variety, since it's not acceptable to act that way in public. Usually, it takes the form of cluelessness and double standards and "serious, objective" discussions of whether the homos are making us lose elections. Lord knows we've seen plenty of those around here.

[rman]

54. not many on the left think homosexuality is evil,

and that there's such a thing as a gay agenda, meaning that gays want to promote the 'gay life style'.

at any rate, the OP didn't make a case about leftist homophobia, in spite of the title.

[Behind the Aegis]

66. Do you understand what homophobia is?

Homophobia is MUCH more than thinking "homosexuality is evil, and that there's such a thing as a gay agenda, meaning that gays want to promote the 'gay life style'." Since you use the words "not many" does this mean you acknowledge that homophobia does in fact exist on the left?

[rman]

78. i have never come across it, so i can't testify to it

[Behind the Aegis]

79. Then consider yourself lucky.

[William769]

44. Blind prejudice, is just as bad as right out prejudice

Most people can't see the difference.

I'll leave it at that before it turns into a flame war.

[mtnester]

45. IMO only, the movie would have had much more of an impact

if they actually would have let gay actors play the part. Know what I mean kiddies?

Otherwise? I saw the movie, and I wish it would have been better. To me, it felt like the actors were trying so hard to play the part/get into character, they could not do it very well...it was too distracting to them because they wanted to get it right. So, before I really stop making sense..

the end

[QC]

50. There are very, very few openly gay actors in Hollywood,

which sort of makes the point, doesn't it? As someone (I think Ian McKellen) said, it's easier to be an openly gay sheepherder in Wyoming than to be an openly gay actor in Hollywood.

For all the talk of Hollywood's liberalism, when it comes to sexuality that is one of the most timid industries in America.

[alarimer]

46. Crash was an obvious "message" movie

and that's why it won. I thought it was okay but not as well done as Brokeback Mountain. I didn't get the same preachy tone from Brokeback as I did from Crash. Crash was too preachy, in my opinion.

[FreedomAngel82]

64. Where's your proof?

The Oscars are about movies; not politics. :eyes:

[cboy4]

80. What's wrong with you. I've read your posts, and you're very snotty

about a problem that doesn't affect you. (I'm guessing you're not gay)

So, look forward to your reply in which you rattle off the names of gay actors and actresses in their 20's, 30's and 40's.

AND

You try to convince me that homophobia is not alive and well in Hollywood because actors are not afraid that they won't be cast in a movie because they're gay.

I'll save you the trouble. You won't be able to.

[Burning Water]

47. My own answer to this question

How can you say the direct reason you didn't see a movie is because it makes you 'uncomfortable' or is 'not your thing' and still be objective? is this.

Matters of interest to a person do not necessarily reflect on his attitude toward certain issues. For instance, I like college football a lot, but have absolutely no interest in professional football. So I don't watch it.

In the college football realm, I don't watch the smaller schools as I have absolutely no interest in them. I don't watch Texas or Notre Dame because I really hate those teams.

So I guess you could say I was Texasphobic, but you could not say I was professional-phobic, or small school phobic. I neither hate, nor dislike, the pros and small schools, I just have no interest.

Same with the movies. There are tons of them I don't see because I have no interest in them, "Brokeback Mountain" among them. Does this make me homophobic? You better smile when you say that. I support equal rights for gays and everyone else. It simply means I am uninterested in this movie and its themes. It would bore me shitless, as do most tales of cheating spouses, or even most love stories.

Now. What makes a good picture is a very subjective thing. I suspect that interest in the theme of the movie ranks high on the list. If a movie doesn't grab someone's interest enough for her to watch it, how can they even consider it as "best".

Hope that I haven't offended you with my opinion, but there it is.

Of course, maybe you're right is some instances. Maybe some of the voters are homophobic.

[Behind the Aegis]

57. Using your example...

"Matters of interest to a person do not necessarily reflect on his attitude toward certain issues. For instance, I like college football a lot, but have absolutely no interest in professional football. So I don't watch it.

In the college football realm, I don't watch the smaller schools as I have absolutely no interest in them. I don't watch Texas or Notre Dame because I really hate those teams.

So I guess you could say I was Texasphobic, but you could not say I was professional-phobic, or small school phobic. I neither hate, nor dislike, the pros and small schools, I just have no interest."

However, if you were asked to speak on Sports Center (that is a real show, isn't it?) you could not be 'objective' in discussing small-schools or professional teams. Your prejudice against those two groups would not allow for an objective discussion, or a truly knowledgeable one. However, if you used influence to prevent Sports Center from showing or discussing pro and small school teams, then you have crossed into 'bigotry,' as it were.

What some of us are saying, actually, I will only speak for me...it has been reported, perhaps just a rumor, that some of the voting members of the Academy did not even view "Brokeback Mountain" because it "made them uncomfortable." They allowed their prejudice to (possibly) influence the vote. They only viewed 4 films and declared one the best. The problem is there were five films! I am not completely discounting that, on a personal level, some chose not to see the movie because it was a "love story." Personally, I don't like war movies, but it would be remiss to come on here and discuss something I hadn't seen, as if I had. Also, there is a difference in not seeing a movie because of theme and not seeing it because of a prejudice against seeing "two men get it on." :)

Did I make any sense?

[Burning Water]

72. I disagree.

However, if you were asked to speak on Sports Center (that is a real show, isn't it?) you could not be 'objective' in discussing small-schools or professional teams. Your prejudice against those two groups would not allow for an objective discussion, or a truly knowledgeable one. However, if you used influence to prevent Sports Center from showing or discussing pro and small school teams, then you have crossed into 'bigotry,' as it were.

If I were to agree to discuss professional football with someone (and got paid money for it), I would become knowledgeable enough to do so objectively, even if it bored me. And I believe, like you, that the voters really owed it to themselves to watch the movies so they could rate them. However, I don't consider it bigotry or homophobia that they didn't. If they are not interested, they're not interested. Same would apply to "war" stories, or stories about serial killers, or anything else.

What I do say is that it was unprofessional, in my opinion, not to watch the movie after agreeing to vote on the nominees. But that is a far, far cry from homophobia. Now if they actively campaigned for the movie not to be considered, and tried to influence other voters, you might have an argument. Did they do that? I have to admit, I've never watched the Oscars. Life's too short.

[Behind the Aegis]

75. Agree to disagree...on this point. :)

"What I do say is that it was unprofessional, in my opinion, not to watch the movie after agreeing to vote on the nominees. But that is a far, far cry from homophobia." I agree it was unprofessional, but if the motivation to not see the film was not genre, but what is was about/who was in it (homo/bisexuality/gay people) then that sounds like the makings of homophobia. But, that is my opinion.

[Burning Water]

77. I guess we'll have to agree

to disagree, as you said.

I never presume to judge motives. Actions are all that concern me. Waatching, or not watching, a movie becasue of matters of taste or morals or any other reason is irrelevant to anything, IMO.

Cheers :)

[DarienComp]

49. I saw both. I could see both as best picture, but only one could win.

This whole thing is ridiculous, and I say that as a gay man.

Best Picture was voted on by people who only saw 4 of the 5 films, because the other, "Brokeback Mountain" didn't interest them! In my eyes, "Crash" beat out three other films, but we will never really know if it deserved the Oscar.

What? How do you know that the members of the Academy didn't see 'Brokeback'? Are you a member or something?

If nobody in the Academy saw the movie, how did they manage to give Ang Lee the nod for Best Director? How did 'Brokeback' win Best Score?

[Behind the Aegis]

56. See post #51, upthread.

[Peace Patriot]

52. Identify a prejudice of your own--say, a prejudice against people who

voted for Bush. Somebody wants to arrange a blind date for you, and the only thing they tell you about this potential fun occasion is that the blind date voted for Bush. Would you bother to go, or would you automatically assume that you could not have fun during an evening with a Bushite? If you decide the latter--that you are generically rejecting this person for one characteristic--then you are prejudiced against a class of people.

Or think about it as just a dinner invitation, or golf invitation, or whatever--a recreational occasion that you have a choice about--and take the "date" aspect out of it. Would you choose to spend an evening or a half day with a Bushite just for fun--if it was offered to you, and that's all you knew about the person? If not, if this one fact about them makes you so uneasy; makes them so unacceptable to you that you could not relax around them and could not tolerate being around them, then, again, you are prejudiced against a class of people. That is, you are not allowing for any other aspect of them to override your dislike of that one fact. You are not allowing for their wholeness as a human being.

Or, what if you were asked to judge a film that was described to you as sympathetic to Bush, and you had an option to see it or not? Would you go?

I think I would, out of a sense of duty, if I'd been asked to judge the film. But still, I would be inclined not to go. How could anything be sympathetic to Bush and not be a lie? --is how I would put it to myself.

A prejudice against Bush and Bushites seems very reasonable to us--and based on experience, knowledge and strong beliefs. To someone else, it might seem quite irrational. To a Bush voter, it would undoubtedly seem unfair--and, trying to look at it objectively--it probably WOULD be unfair to judge ANYONE on that one criterion. (Bush himself is another matter, which I won't get into--but I think it's at least theoretically possible that a film about him could elicit sympathy without lying, perhaps by the very method of NOT lying. But most of us would still be inclined to not bother, and to not see it. Is that not prejudice, i.e., deliberate blindness?)

Now apply this to homophobia, or racial prejudice. Maybe it doesn't fully apply--but it might help people understand it emotionally.

[Snivi Yllom]

53. take a peek at the Supreme Court decision today

a long way to go yet

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/06/scotus.campus.recruiters.ap/index.html

Supreme Court upholds college military recruiting law

Monday, March 6, 2006; Posted: 10:26 a.m. EST (15:26 GMT)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court ruled unanimously Monday that colleges that accept federal money must allow military recruiters on campus, despite university objections to the Pentagon's "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays.

Justices rejected a free-speech challenge from law school professors who claimed they should not be forced to associate with military recruiters or promote their campus appearances.

Chief Justice John Roberts wrote the decision, which was unanimous.

[SaveElmer]

81. This was the correct decision...

Had it gone the other way, federal requirments on all types of programs would have been jeapordized. Including things such as Medicare and medicaid, infrastructure funding...etc. As someone else put it, federal aid is not a "cafeteria plan" If you accept the money you have to follow the rules under which it was accepted.

[Maven]

85. Um, no they wouldn't have.

All it would mean is that universities could reject military recruiters and still receive federal funding.

You actually support the Solomon Amendment? And in a thread about latent homophobia? :eyes:

[SaveElmer]

88. No...

The Supreme Court would possibly have been rejecting the US Governments ability to control how grant money is spent.

And of course I never said I supported anything...I do NOT support the amendment. What I support is the right of the federal government to set the rules by which money is given to the states.

[semillama]

55. Honestly, it's the argument

I've been looking over these threads that cry "Homophobia!" because Brokeback Mountain didn't win Best Picture. One thing I've noticed is that there hasn't been a well-constructed argument using facts to back up the assertion. I've noticed quotes from what seems to be a Hollywood gossip column used as support, but that amounts to nothing more than hearsay. I think some folks are reading too much into the whole "Brokeback Mountain didn't win = Hollywood Homophobia" thing. If that were really the case, would it even have been nominated? Would it have won all those other awards?

I'm not saying that homophobia didn't play a part. I'm just saying that I haven't seen any good evidence to say that it was the deciding factor.

I have not seen either Crash nor Brokeback Mountain. I did see Capote, Good Night and Good Luck, and Munich, all of which were fantastic movies. I would argue that Capote was the more deserving movie but since I have not seen all four, I can't form an objective opinion on which movie should have one. I do know, having seen the three I mentioned, that picking one would be a really hard decision, and I would like to think that any pride I had in my profession would override any latent homophobia/racism/leftover McCarthyism/Anti-semitism/whatever that might influence my decision, if I were a member of the Academy. Which I'm not.


Meanwhile, some other poster on one of these threads brought up "sour grapes." May I also refer to the parable of "the boy who cried wolf?"

[AtomicKitten]

68. Hey, you can't please all the people all the time.

Consider it payback for those of us who preferred LA Confidential over Titanic in 1997 and Elizabeth over Shakespeare in Love in 1998.

All this tin foil hat analysis is nonsense.

[Lerkfish]

70. nice broad brush, there.

If someone don't want to see Brokeback mountain, they're automatically homophobic? People you've never met?

wunnnnerful.

So now, is it just brokeback mountain, or if they think birdcage for example was boring, does that make them homophobes, too? Is enthusiastic thumbs up required for all movies with a gay theme or a gay character? How about actors who are gay? Are they allowed to have subjective opinions of their acting abilities or do they have to give them all thumbs up automatically?
How about actors they don't know if they're gay or not? Are they allowed to have discerning taste on any of them without fearing being accused of homophobia? I mean, maybe they liked Ian Mclellan, but didn't care for Nathan Lane. Am they going to burn in homophobic hell, now?

Howzabout if religious groups accuse anyone who doesn't want to see the Passion as heathens? Would that be in line with your thinking?

for the record, I personally do want to see it eventually, but like all films, I wait until they're rentable, as I hate the theatre experience. Since it was nominated, I'm interesting in seeing it, but its a hard sell for me: not because of the gay characters, but because I'm not really interested in westerns, cowboys, or country music. I'm not sure how much of those three things are in the movie, but I know it won't be a selling point for me what I've seen already.
however, I hear its a good love story, so I'll probably see it in spite of that its about cowboys.

But here's my question: Do we all need to submit a list of movies we're planning on NOT watching in advance, so you can accuse us of being whatever-ist in advance?

[Behind the Aegis]

76. That's not what I said.

So take your strawman to the field.

"But here's my question: Do we all need to submit a list of movies we're planning on NOT watching in advance, so you can accuse us of being whatever-ist in advance?"

Here's my question: Should only those with YOUR opinion be allowed to express themselves here? Or should we just wait to be told what our opinion should be?

[Lerkfish]

86. you said "Why is homophobia so hard for some to see?"

did I misinterpret that you were accusing people of being homophobes?

and, talk about strawman, point out where I said anyone's opinion was forbidden?

go ahead, point it out.

INSTEAD, I'm only pointing out that you're using an awfully broad brush. And you are. If ANYONE here is castigating ANYONE for having an opinion...well, just look in a mirror and I think you'll see them.

[Behind the Aegis]

89. You misinterpreted.

Asking why SOME people cannot see discrimination is not saying they, those who cannot see it, are the ones guilty of the discrimination!

and, talk about strawman, point out where I said anyone's opinion was forbidden?

go ahead, point it out.

How can I point out something that was not said?

Enjoy your mirror time. :)

[Mz Pip]

74. I didn't see Brokeback Mountain

because I know the end is so depressing and tragic. I'm sort of in a space where I avoid things that will upset me.

The only Ocsar nominee I saw was March of the Penguins and I thought it was sad when the eggs froze and some babies died. Brokeback would have been far more upsetting.

Haven't seen Crash either, but will probably watch it tonight since it came a couple of days ago via Netflix. Don't know if I'll like it, either. Doesn't make me a racist, though.

Doesn't make me a homophobe because I haven't seen Brokeback. It is what it is. I do not want to feel sad these days.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[onenote]

90. how do you know how many films academy members saw?

There probably were votes cast by Academy members who saw none of the films. Or just one, or two. I'm willing to bet that out of the 6000 Academy members, there might have been some who voted for Brokeback who didn't see all the other films. I'm also willing to bet that Academy members who worked on one of the other nominated films probably were inclined to vote for those films. Or, if you were an Academy member and you previously worked with, or were about to be working with, the director or actors in one of the nominated films, you might lean towards that film on the theory that it would help your reputation to have worked with, or be about to work with, Oscar winners. Oscar voting is influenced by a lot of things other than the voters' subjective judgment about the quality of the film, and personal and professional relationships/jealousies probably play a very large role. And keep that concept in mind: Sujective judgment. Not every Academy voter has the same perception of what makes a movie the "best picture" of the year. Thus it has always been, and thus it will always be.

onenote

[QC]

94. People tend not to see what does not affect them.

For most beneficiaries of heterosexual privilege, homophobia is about as remote and abstract as the craters on the dark side of them moon. And since it doesn't touch them personally, it must not be important.

[bloodyohio]

96. Entitlement factor

A lot of people seem to think that if a movie like Brokeback Mountain gets nominated, then it automatically deserves to win. I don't even see how people can accuse Hollywood of homophobia, considering the way the movie industry has tackled LGBT issues over the years, and furthermore, those issues should not necessarily be the reason Brokeback Mountain was nominated to begin with. It was a good movie, but not the best movie. It won best director and best soundtrack; is that homophobic? I'm sick of the unsubstantiated whining! It still won multiple Oscars for crying out loud...

[Mr Bungle 34]

97. Maybe I'm a homophobe?

If a poster here said, "I don't want to watch "Guess Who is Coming to Dinner?" because it is about interracial love," because they are not "interested in seeing a love story between a Black person and white person," they would be branded a racist! So, why are we holding up a different standard when discussing a "gay love story?"


You make a good point, really got me thinking. I fully support gay rights but I just don't want to watch two men make out. I find it gross. while at the same time I would have no problem watching two women. I always thought as long as you were tolerant of gays you weren't a homophobe but I'll be mulling this over for the next few days....

[indie_voter]

98. MHO,we'll know acceptance of both race/gay relationships

has arrived when we see a "you've got mail" (blech) movie cast regardless of sexuality, race, religion, etc. complete with happy ending with no mention of color, gender and religion.

This is when we all hit mainstream (I am in an inter-racial marriage with 2 kids, my brother in-law is in a gay marriage with an adopted kid).

Recently (I am loath to admit)I was in a flame war with somebody on a different board regarding Superman and how he would react to gay marriage. HELLLOOO!!! He is in an alien/human marriage, at least the rest of us are in human/human relationships.

;)

Meanwhile, Bush continues to destroy our collective future.....

[blueblitzkrieg]

103. I'm straight and I saw all the Best Picture nominees...

and IMO Brokeback was the best. Not because of an "agenda" or any other such nonsense, but because it genuinely moved me and impressed me more than any other film. And Heath Ledger gave one of the best performances I've ever seen.

No offense to anyone, we all have different opinions, but IMO Crash was extremely shallow, contrived, and just not all that good. It was my least favorite of the nominated films. I understand a lot of people loved it and that's cool, and I'm sure the people behind the film had great intentions, and I agree 100% that racism is a very real problem that should be explored in film, but this one film just rung false to me.

I don't know why Crash won over BBM, maybe it really was the Best Picture of the year and congrats to Crash, but I do think its pretty naive and condescending to scream at posters that dare suggest homophobia played a part that they should "GET OVER IT!" and homophobia didn't play any part. Considering BBM is the first of its kind to be nominated best picture, I don't think it's wildy illogical or a tinhat theory to think that some of the voters did not watch the film (as was being reported) or did not want it to win.

Also disheartening is on other message boards I read, many of the posters started posting their joy that the "fag movie" lost. Not that Crash won, but that BBM lost. I've never seen such hate. It's pretty sad. ANyway thats my one (AND I intend to be my ONLY) post on this subect

[ruggerson]

124. thanks for an enlightened, intelligent post

and for bringing up the point again that the OTHER side turned this into a political issue, because they simply can't stand anything that might result in gays being treated as equal human beings.

The unadulterated joy in freeperville that Brokeback lost is homophobia, plain and simple.
Most of us see that easily.

The more insidious homophobia is the type here at DU, where so many of these folks are in denial over the way this film was treated (and serving as a proxy and a metaphor for how gays are treated in this society).

The ultimate irony is the issues this movie addressed are at the foundation of why so many Academy voters couldn't bring themselves to watch it.

[sleipnir]

110. "Diversity training film" could also be applied to Brokeback.

I liked the film, it was good, but the main reason it got to where it is today and out of the primordial soup of independent film is the subject matter. Honestly looking at the film from a critical standpoint, there was nothing really earthshattering in the filmmaking or acting. The subject matter is what is to be remembered from this film. That said, I believe it wasn't a great candidate for Best Picture. I don't think we need a Metropolis or Citizen Kane each year, but honestly there were more interesting and better films than Crash and Brokeback. For God's sake, could Heath Ledger be less coherent in a movie? And sweeping camera shots of Montana does not win an Oscar, just a IMAX deal. Also, I think that Crash just beat everyone over the head with a huge rock.

I guess I could also say, "Why is good, but not great filmmaking so hard for some to see?" People really latched onto this film emotionally, and that's what you SHOULD do with movies. Take a storytelling journey for a few hours, experience a world and emotions and leave the theatre changed in one way or another. I think that the emotional content and subject matter of the film got in the way of critically analyzing Brokeback Mountain, in terms of Best Picture. But, the awarding of the prize Crash is just bizarre. Of those nominated, I would have voted for Capote. It was 10x a better film than both Crash and Brokeback. It's worth checking out, as it was the true film to get robbed on Oscar Night.

[tomreedtoon]

113. If you're hoping a movie will help acceptance, you've lost.

"Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" didn't cure racism. What did it was living human beings, taking actions in their everyday life.

I didn't see "Brokeback" because I don't need to be preached at. Everything I heard about the movie was about the gay romance, and how important it was that a gay romance be in a movie. In other words, for a lot of people, going to this film confirmed that they accepted gay people to their friends...

...while they remained homophobes in their everyday lives.

[Bluebear]

114. Well, it truly wasn't a 'gay romance'

And the movie wasn't preachy, but to each their own. You missed a dandy.

[mogster]

116. Seeing love story's between men is pretty mainstream here now

The series 'Six Feet Under' did a lot in that respect, in bringing the somewhat unfamiliar (for some) scenes of men in love with each other into everyday life, getting to 'know' them as characters and respect them as just ordinary people. Well, not exactly ordinary, but then no one in that series is ordinary :P
(Or maybe that's just what they are, and that's why we like it so much?)

As for the Brokeback Mountain, I'm gonna catch both that and Crash when it comes on the cinemas here. I don't have any opinion on the desicions of the jury because I haven't paid attention, but if they 'abstained' from watching it because it didn't interest them, well...

In general: people that don't watch a movie because it may make them 'uncomfortable' misses a lot of good films, and doesn't understand art IMHO.

[Inland]

117. Where did you get this factoid from?

"Best Picture was voted on by people who only saw 4 of the 5 films, because the other, "Brokeback Mountain" didn't interest them! In my eyes, "Crash" beat out three other films, but we will never really know if it deserved the Oscar."

Only Academy members vote for awards, so for purposes of winning the award, you'd have to have information that academy members voted without seeing all the movies. I don't know where you would get this concept that the members voted without seeing all of them.

[Maddy McCall]

119. There is another thread in GDP in which Tony Curtis admitted...

to not seeing Brokeback Mountain and said that none of his friends did, either. I assume that he is an Academy member and voter, but I don't know.

[Inland]

120. Did he vote for best picture? And for which one?

After all, that's the assertion: that he didn't see Brokeback Mountain and voted for something else.

[Maddy McCall]

121. Don't know.

[Bluebear]

131. See this thread inland

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2497945&mesg_id=2497945

[Punkingal]

122. Because people are in denial...

They can't bear to recognize their lack of empathy, their intolerance for people who are different from them. For some reason that I can't fathom (thankfully) they are threatened and frightened by people who are different from them. It is sad, and they are the losers. It is much better to embrace differences, to learn from people who walk a different path, but sadly, so many people are unable to do that. It is their loss, and they don't even know it.

[kentuck]

125. I think the people it is most difficult for them to see....

is the gay community itself. Many gays believe they are more accepted than they really are, in my humble opinion. So the blindness is on both sides.

[AtomicKitten]

127. I don't think homophobia was among the criteria for choosing BP

The Oscars have always been controversial, every year fights break out. But the bottom line is that judging art is subjective. I happen to think Crash was the better picture. But what do I know.

I am not gay but have many gay friends. We don't ever discuss "gayness." They are just people to me. To read allegations at DU about homophobia being the reason BBM didn't win BP just doesn't ring true to me. Perhaps there are some that think BBM should receive special dispensation because of the subject matter, but even that doesn't make sense to me because IMO it was a film about tragic love. (I also thought Fight Club wasn't about violence.)

I think it would be helpful if people discussed film based on the merits, not what people read into it.

And there's always next year when a new fight will break out ...

[DarkTirade]

128. Honestly, I don't think Brokeback deserved best film.

It was good, and for obvious reasons it was deeper than your average romance movie, and it certainly deserved nomination... but I'm still not quite convinced that it was Best Picture material.
Although I never saw Crash, so I don't know how good that was.

[wiley]

132. No film "deserved" the Oscar

I will not burden you a dissertation on homophobia. Let's just say that few people are structurally capable, psychologically, of accepting without going through several stages, a different socialized identity that places homosexuality on the same level as heterosexuality. This despite the fact that many people have sex with members of the same sex and do not consider it not being heterosexual. Being naked or having their genitals or even body seen by others in a public or even private setting still really freaks most people out. Explain that.Why do some social groups have no problem with homosexuality while others will do anything not to be associated with it, even if they are open about it with their friends and have no personal issues with being gay? Why do some of the most publically identified heterosexuals have sex on the DL (down low)yet not consider themselves gay or heterosexual or ever speak of it? How many rewards and support systems are available for heterosexuals. How about homosexuals?

[DarkTirade]

134. Ooookay... that was rather disjointed.

I'm not sure what the hell point you were trying to get across there. I don't even think I mentioned the word homophobia in my comment there. All I said was that I saw the picture, and it was good, and brought up issues that made it deeper than your average romance movie. But that was about all.

[wiley]

137. Sorry Dude!

It was a post in reply to the original. Really Sorry!

[DarkTirade]

138. 'sokay, I've done that before. :)

I was just a bit confuzzled. :)

[Behind the Aegis]

139. I am not sure what your point is.

I noticed that this post was supposed to be directed to my post (I am the OP).

I don't need a dissertation on homophobia because I understand it quite well. The reason I posted what I did was because it seemed, to me, that a few posters at DU were incapable of seeing homophobia. As I have a degree in Student Personnel Services, I am very familiar with a plethora of identity acquisition theories, Cross and Cass being my favorites for minority groups.

I think you and I are on the same side in this discussion. If not, let me know, and I will address the questions in your post (or start a new thread, or PM me).

[wiley]

143. We are in agreement

[rinsd]

133. A quick point on not seeing the film.

On, the supposed boycott of BBM by voters, that is ascribed to one guy saying he wouldn't see it and doubted his friends will.

The horror of someone being a voter without having viewed the material makes me chuckle a bit. Not because of Tony Curtis's twisted reasoning but that fact I doubt voters view all the material anyway no matter what year it is. I am quite sure there are many "upstanding" members who view all material but just like there are voters on election day who only know their guy or party, there are just as likely academy voters who did not view all the material.

[ruggerson]

135. It is NOT just one person

You read one quote and assumed that it's just Tony Curtis and friends.

It ain't. It's all over Hollywood. It's rampant.

[rinsd]

140. You read articles citing rumor and that makes it rampant?

"
It's all over Hollywood. It's rampant."

Yes. Hollywood is so homophobic that in additon to 3 Oscars BBM received, there were near countless awards from the HOLLYWOOD community.

[onenote]

144. and exactly how did Ang Lee win for best director?

If Tony Curtis and a rampant mob of Hollywood homophobes boycotted BBM, how did it win best director? I guess even without the Rampant Mob, there were enough votes for it. Which suggests that what cost BBM the best picture award wasn't the Rampant Mob (who presumably wouldn't have voted for BBM even if they had seen it); it was voters who saw BBM, but split their best picture and best director votes, possibly because they felt it was a way to honor two deserving films. How did it work out that the vote splitters gave BBM best director rather than best picture? Probably because Ang Lee was nominated, but didn't win, for best director for Crouching Tiger and the Academy likes to honor past accomplishment as well as current accomplishment.


onenote

[BootinUp]

142. But you can't change it by throwing sticks and stones

The only way that particular problem will lessen, is by more people having everyday interaction with gay people and learning to appreciate them as real people, good people, or whatever. Its not something that will happen on an intellectual level.

[election_2004]

145. I'm gay, and I haven't seen Brokeback Mountain....

But I certainly know what you mean. People often have a hard time understanding something unless they've experienced it directly.