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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:29 AM
Original message
Please, give me some fair warning here..........

Here we are in March 2006, having dealt with and suffered through six long miserable crime ridden years of Bush & Co. After everything the neocons have pulled they are all but begging us to take back both Houses of Congress and the White House in the next two elections. Creatures like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Frist, and too many others to list here are handing us an all out landslide win on a silver platter.

An intelligent person would think that Liberals and Democrats of any and all persuasions would be jumping at the chance to send all neocons packing with the greatest of speed. Youd think by now that Bush & Co had made every Liberal and Democrat absolutely sick of the neocons my way or the highway, crap. :grr: It defies explanation why Democrats and Liberals arent scrambling to get behind anyone who ever opposed the neocons on anything in the last six years just to get rid of the neocon political machine.

Personally, I am so overwhelmingly sick :puke: and tired of Bush & Co that I dont give a crap who runs against the neocons that person will get my vote in November and again in 2008.

Oh, but apparently not all Liberals and Democrats have had their fill of the neocon criminal political machine yet. Instead of doing the neocons the favor of putting them in the unemployment lines we hear the usual Liberal dribble. It may be worded differently but basically it comes down to I cant vote for so and so they are not in lock step with my every view. So come November we will have ONLY BE ONE OF TWO CHOICES,

1) Vote in such a way as to give the neocons a free pass to screw us over even more than they have already.

Or

2) Vote for anyone who has ever opposed the neocons and their political machine in any way.

I just want some head notice as to how much longer Ill have to suffer through the neocon political machine. So which is it going to be people?? PLEASE dont give me any more political dribble, Ive heard and read enough of that, just pick from choice 1 or choice 2.










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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. When we libruls talk of opposing rightist Dems,
we mean in the primaries. In the general election, most of us will choke back the vomit and vote for whatever piece of crap our party machine has selected.
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Trevelyan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. I chose two. Let's convince the courageous Feingold to run as a third
party candidate if DLC has the nerve to run Hillary.
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Trevelyan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Will Americans be fooled by the "Anybody but....bush" AGAIN
The DLC pushed out the people choice Howard Dean with Rovian dirty tricks to give us the fake candidate Kerry. Don't let this happen again. Start organizing now against Hillary and the DNC and make it clear that we won't be fooled by a Kerry DINO again and pour out our hearts, time, soul and money for the DLC choice. Feingold deserves our support because of his courageous and lonely stands against the Patriot Act and powerful speech against the Congressional coverup including Dems who cheered at Bush's SOTU when Bush admitted to breaking the law in the NSA Domestic Spying Scandal and vowed to continue breaking the law and the DINOs helped to stop any real investigation of NSA Spying on American citizens w/o a warrent and have sold us down the river on everything else. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME, SHAME indeed for 90% of the Dems.

Why aren't they co-sponsoring or supporting Conyers' three Impeachment Inquiry Bills and Rep. Murtha's plan to exit Iraq?????? Why is CodePink following Hillary and getting arrested at her orders, just like Bush ordering the arrest of CINDY??? Hillary is Bush in a different package, same product owned by Bilderberg, Carlyle, AIPAC and God knows who else.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. Senator Feingold...
Is the most principled person that has ever served in the Senate. I wish he were my own state Senator, but I suppose I have to make do with the pale comparisons we have here. I hope he runs for President because he has true moral courage. Truly a great Senator!
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. originalpckelly, Feingold would EASILY get my vote and.......
.....hopefully be liberal enough for everyone else too. :toast: :bounce:
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Notice I didn't mention any candidate I just focused on......
.....the two main parties and then asked for a choice of #1 or # 2.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. Exactly. Thank you for putting it to words.
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sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. That way we can make sure the neo con's
will win in a landslide. Third parties are not with the time and trouble. Anderson brought forth Nixon. Do we want that again. I don't. \Any democrat is better than any neo con. And by the way never call a democrat a piece of crap. Even Lieberman
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. LIEberman's a piece of crap.
Of that I no longe have any doubts.

How far up bush*s ass is too far for you, BTW?

Mine was the moment his lips hit the asshole lips.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. On that I agree totally nt
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. Please, please don't
I voted self righteously for a 3rd party candidate in a presidential election and got Reagan. Yeah, I know he was gonna win anyway but that made me sick. Also, I met the man I voted for a few months later. I said to him "I voted for you." He (that was John Anderson, btw)looked at me like he couldn't care less and didn't even respond.

I vowed then and there to devote myself to alternate candidates in the primary, but swallow hard and vote for the Dem in the general. I was tempted during a state race for governor a few years back but "got real" and voted Dem.

I do understand liberals dislike of Hillary. I'm not in favor of some things she's done or said either, but look what a horrible mess Bush has made of this country. For all of Hillary's faults, I really don't think she would bring one tenth of what these neo cons are doing to us.

But ya know, Hillary ain't gonna be the candidate anyway!
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. OK, this is my point EXACTLY, someone under the Dem banner,
....may not be our "made in heaven" candidate, but he'she will darn well be a HUGE improvement over Bush.

:hug: THANK YOU :hug: :grouphug:

"I'm not in favor of some things she's done or said either, but look what a horrible mess Bush has made of this country. For all of Hillary's faults, I really don't think she would bring one tenth of what these neo cons are doing to us."



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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. It is really gonna be tough for me to pull the lever for Joe
this fall if my guy Ned doesn't make it. But I just can't put another Senate seat in the hands of a Republican. I am hoping that Joe will be shaken by our campaign. Maybe, just maybe, some sense will be shaken into him.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I'd be tempted to get sick if Liebermann was my only choice too nt
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. only one party in Americo..
.. the business party.
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Trevelyan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. Kick and Recommended - This is the most important issue even more than
Diebold if we allow the DLC to give us Twiddledum and Twiddledee to chose from again.
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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. I think we need a real Democratic Convention.
The dissension in the ranks needs to be voiced actively and loud. It needs to be messy. What? we are body and soul disgusted at the
spinelessness and the corruption and still expected to give a vote and a rose to Hilary? I want a voice. I want the sell outs to live with a little
apprehension.
We could however keep the unity of the party foremost in our concerns and just continue to sail off into oblivion.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I take it that you are picking # 1 then?? nt
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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
43. Well, no. I really really really hate the neocons and
will never cast a vote I think might enable them. Tough choices for answers you offer and so it will be come
judgement day when we have to select and choose to elect. I think under all my hyperbole is the plain fact that we
have to see what come out in the wash and deal with it then given the choices you offer as the crux of it all.
No, I'm not letting the bad guys win to spite my face.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Basically that's all I was asking. I too have my favorite......
....candidate/s but if it's a choice between truly evil and not the best I wanted to know who people would choose. :shrug:

I'm so tired of this criminal bunch and I'm not saying the Democrats are always much better but we desperately need a change right now.

Anyway, thanks for your response. :toast:
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
9. You are creating a false choice here
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 11:35 AM by Armstead
I think you are missing the point.

There is a Choice 3: The Democrats actually take a stand and return to the roots of true liberalism and progressive populism, and win with a message and actions that actually supports the interests of the majority of Americans o9n the core issues of Wealth and Power.

The Neo-Cons are only an exagerated version of the Centrist "New Democrat" philosophy.

Both versions are based on a mix of phony "free trade" globalization and enabling Corporate Power to take over and sell off America.

Both the neo-cons and the centrist neo-liberals eitehr don't care, or they fail to adddress, the concentration of wealth and power that has been going on for several decades. Both are just shills for a set of premises that is totally contrary to common sense, unless one is a member of the elite corproate oligarchy.

The lack of providing a real alternative is the Democrats problem, and why many of us are sick and tired of the "lesser evil" threat that is put over our heads every election season.

In a political sense, it's also why the Democrats have basically been losing since 1980.

Personally, I don't care if a Democrat agrees or disagrees with me on many issues. Or if they agree with me to a lesser degree.

But after almost 30 years of this crap, I am SICK and TIRED of Democrats who either miss the baic point or -- worse yet -- join the other side in selling the US out.

Ultimately, if forced to, I'll support whatever Democrat is put up against the Repiublicans, only because the Republicans are soooooo bad.

BUT in the meantime, why the hell can't we push to actually restore some measure of oppositional politics on a substantial basis, instead of an empty choice between two corporater parties that have long go stopped truly representing the interests of the majority of the American people.


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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said it best...........
....."you can please ALL the people SOME of the time, You can please SOME of the people ALL the time, BUT you can't please all the people ALL the time."

So my point is short of everyone having their every wish come true how much do we truly want change.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. How much do you think is wrong? That's how much you should want changed
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 12:41 PM by Armstead
Or, putting it another way, why believe that whatever you believe in -- and whatever you object to -- has to be the path to defeat?

That sene of defeatism has been the Achilles Heel for Democrats ever since Reagan.

I don't want everythiog. I just don't want to have to continue to resist the urge to throw my show at the TV when I hear of things like mega mergers and other actions that are completely undermining our economy, our democracy and the middle class to go on with nary a peep from the power Democrats.

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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. What you and I think is Progressive enough for us may........
.....be too little or too much for others. :shrug: So, when does everyone left of the middle agree to disagree on some issues and focus on getting rid of neocons as their No. 1 and ultimate goal?? :woohoo: With two main parties to work with here we are back to choice # 1 or choice # 2.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Neo-Libs are as bad as Neo-Cons in some ways
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 01:21 PM by Armstead
I'm not talking about some socialist paradise. Just a restoration of common sense liberalism and progressive populism, whichy is basically just old fashiioned common sense and decency.

Unfortunately, everything we have seen happen under Bush was the logical outcome of the 1990's.

Monopolization, deregulation, privatization, cutting away the safety net, industrialization of health care, media consolidation...... These and many otehr problems were, unfortunately, enabled and even hastened by the likes of Bill Clinton and otehr centrist Democrats, who swallowed the corporate line of bull, hook, line and sinker.

They are "nicer" that the GOP, and they have more liberal stances on issues like reproductive choice.

But on the core issues of the relationship between the economy and society and democracy, that brand of Democrat is contrary to what traditional liberalism and progressive populism stand for and fought for for so many years.

Is it worse to have your friends sell you out or your opponents?

I say let's get back the idea that there are core principles that should not be diluted or sold out. IMO that would not only revitalize the Democratic Party, but it would also save the country.

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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. There seems to be one comkon theme running.......
....through Free Republic :puke: and Democratic Underground, which is to avoid at all costs answering a straight question. :shrug:
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. What is your straight question?
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 01:43 PM by Armstead
I already gave you what I thought was a straight answer.

When it comes down to the choice between a Democrat and a Republican, choose the Democrat.

But that does not preclude believeing that we need to restore the concept of a REAL choice again between a clearly Liberal Democratic Party that stands up for the common people over corporate interests to oppose the Conservative Republican Party.

What part of that is too complicated for you to grasp?

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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. oops - my mistake - you did answer that question - missed it.......
....with all the other. So maybe we can agree to disagree and still get rid of the neocons. :bounce: :toast: :bounce: :toast:
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Okay, I can go along with that..Neo-Cons = Bad
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
10. I'm not sure that giving them more opportunities to loot is all bad.
it helps spread the misery around to those that "discovered" these criminals were bad in the last month or so, whereas, many of us have been suffering for years, and years, and are getting used to it.
BTW where were you before Feb 22nd?
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Where was I? Been suffering right along with everyone else and I.....
.....for one am tired of it. I lurked and read on DU before joining and discovered the "neocon lite" and such phrases as that seems to be a reoccuring theme. One thing I find extremely interesting is the "my way or the highway" attitude coming from the far left as well as the far right. :grr:
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. They've skewed the baseline so far to the right, that what was moderate
just 20 years ago is now being called "far left". Hell, Barry Goldwater, if he came along today, would be called a moderate liberal. So, I think that the moderate progressives are right to say "this far, and no further!", since what they're trying to preserve is just a remnant of how it must be to work.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. You may well have a good point BUT we also need to........
.....get rid of Bush while we are pushing our own representatives further to the left. That means we HAVE TO go after that "middle of the road" vote or we can kiss anything but a neocon controlled Congress and WH goodbye. Personally, I don't want to see four to eight more years of neocons, I don't think this country could survive it.

So my point all along has been, are people willing to at least go with whatever we have and then push like hell later?? I think the rest of the country is just about ready to do whatever it takes to get rid of Bush& Co and I'm just wondering if people here are ready to help them?

I'm beginning to have my doubts. :grr:
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. My orig. reply was an attempt at sarcasm. Forgot the emoticon
shrubCo. really isn't a factor anymore, IMO, whether he goes in '07 or '08 makes little difference, the damage is done and un-doing it is going to be difficult to say the very least. It is paramount that the Democratic candidate is wholly committed to what must be done to heal the country. I believe a re :puke: Lite candidate will be a disaster for the country, win or lose.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. So I take it your choice.......
.... from the original question is option Number one??? :eyes:
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I chose not to chose from the available options. It won't make much
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 05:13 PM by greyhound1966
difference if the choice is between douche-bag and turd sandwich.
Edit to add; None of it matters if this election goes badly, this year it is all up to the Democrats, it's theirs to win or lose.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. No choice is another way of.......
....saying choice # 1 - hope you like neocons. :nuke: Me? I'll do what it takes to get rid of Bush&Co :puke:
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. As I said, not much difference, I'll vote for whom I want to win.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
14. I don't tell anyone how to vote
And no one tells me how to vote. Allowing oneself to be bound by party loyalties or bullied by either/or arguments regarding where one's vote goes defeats democracy. It's not meant to be that simple. Yet it has become a matter of settling for the lesser of two evils in the minds of many.

Effect, meet cause.
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ChipsAhoy Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. Door Number Two --- of course.
I'm going to vote pretty much straight ticket against them. (Dont' tell DIEBOLD.)
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. THANK YOU - I think you.....
....are the one and only person who just answered the question straight forwardly. You win the price. :hug: :grouphug: and because it's Saturday here is something else :beer: ENJOY!!
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ChipsAhoy Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yeaaa for meeee!!
It's about time I won something!! :)
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
36. Actually, it's only been *five* miserable years (+ 1 1/2 months) - but it
feels like WAY more than that!
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
41. "the usual Liberal dribble"
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 05:24 PM by welshTerrier2
that's not helpful ... you want to win but your words do nothing but divide ... your hostility for the left is misplaced ...

think of it this way ... your argument that we need unity to drive the neo-cons from power is dead on the money ... but "blaming" those who don't like what the Dems are offering is of absolutely no value ... it will NOT EARN the votes of those who don't like what they're hearing from Party leaders ...

you can scream at them until you're blue in the face but that's all you're doing, screaming ... a better view would be to think about what can be done to attract these alienated voters ... after all, you do want their support, don't you? it doesn't matter whether they should "just support Dems to get rid of the neo-cons" or not; what matters is whether they ultimately will vote for the Democratic candidate ... your approach is a dead-end ...

what is needed is a party-wide summit ... what is needed is better intra-party communication where all voices are heard ... what is needed is a process where elected Dems and elite Dem Party members hold free public forums, not just fundraisers, to truly exchange ideas with Democratic constituents ... what is needed is a more inclusive process; not a process that says "here's what we're offering and you better shut-up and just go along ... these are the changes that are needed to win back not only the votes of those who may vote partially or entirely third party but also those who are so disgusted they have stopped voting completely ...

you can continue on your "those stupid liberals" tirades if it makes you feel good; your energies would be more productive calling for intra-party reforms and better intra-party communication ... fighting against and insulting those whose support you want is probably not going to achieve the goals we both share ...
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