So, does anyone have the proof that NO Democrats took Abramoff Money?

[Up2Late]

Or is that just a rumor that we have all just excepted because we read it here? :shrug:

The reason I ask is, I sort of lied to my Dad tonight by saying that I had seen the proof, but I haven't yet.:blush:

[snowbear]

1. Did you see Howard Dean on Wolf this morning?

If so... what he said!

[MidwestTransplant]

2. The better question is where is the proof that they have

Tough to prove a negative. Not a single one did however.

Check here:

http://www.newsmeat.com/washington_political_donations/Jack_Abramoff.php

[Viva_La_Revolution]

5. something odd...

I just noticed that he made only 1 contribution in 2005, 2 in 2004, but 35 in 2003, 34 in 2002.....

Why so few in the past 2 years? Perhaps he was "contributing" in other ways? hmmmmm?

[Rainscents]

7. Abramof investigation start it 18 months ago and that might be the reason.

[MidwestTransplant]

10. I'm sure that's it.

[MidwestTransplant]

11. I'm sure that's it.

[Up2Late]

13. O.K. then, can anyone explain this graphic from the Washington Post?

Note: Patrick Kennedy is a Democrat. :mad:



<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2005/12/12/GR2005121200286.html>

[Rainscents]

16. Look at it again... Light blue, money came from Tribes!!!

Darker Blue, Money went to Republican, and Black went to Abramoff... As you can see, Dem's money came from TRIBES!!! Washington Post graphic is very confusing and they did this on purpose to make you think believing Dems received money from Abramoff. There were tread about this last Friday!

[Up2Late]

24. It is very confusing, there's no key until low down in the chart...

...Plus, the graphic has very little explanation with it, did they have an article to go with this chart? I didn't find one yet.

[gumby]

18. This is phony-speak

The graphic itself says "his tribal clients."

That means that if Patrick Kennedy got money from a tribe in his state, which is highly likely, the Washington Post is making a false connection to "Abramoff's Clients." The same is true of Byron Dorgan.

Just because a tribe gave contributions to a Democrat, that does NOT mean they were taking "Abramoff Money." This is how the Republicans and the "Liberal Media" are purposefully muddying the waters. Don't fall for it.

[MidwestTransplant]

29. It's not loading

In any event, he never gave money directly to any Dems. Some of his clients did. Whether it was at his urging is not clear. In any event, he did not take Dems to Scotland, funnel money to their wives, etc. Abramoff was a Republican lobbyiest who by his own admission (you can dig for quotes) wanted to destroy the Dem. party.

[TheBaldyMan]

30. where did GW's $34k come from?

[turbo_satan]

3. Here it is...

http://www.newsmeat.com/washington_political_donations/Jack_Abramoff.php

[JI7]

4. it's up to those making the claim to prove it

[Rainscents]

6. Dean made it clear on this today!

Dean stated, he himself did research and NO Dem's received money from Abramoff!!! Abramoff hated Dem's and this link will show what the Abramoff and the GOP plans for this country... http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=K_Street_Project

[tuvor]

8. Strictly speaking, that's impossible.

Proving a negative can't be done.

The other side has to prove it happened.

[gumby]

9. See if this works

http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/2006/DeanAbramoffDemocrats.asx

Dean said they checked the records to make sure it was true that NO DEMOCRATS TOOK ANY ABRAMOFF MONEY.

The right-wing, like Wolf Blitzer, tries to muddy the waters by saying stuff like "Aramoff related groups" gave money to Democrats. Once again, Dean said this was absolutely, and provably, UNTRUE. Some Democrats have received money form tribes, but that is NOT connected with Abramoff.

[hughee99]

12. I see that newsmeat was linked earlier...

It looks like he wasn't directly contributing to any Dems, but it sounds like the bigger issue wasn't the roughly 1-200K that he contributed over the last 15 years but his clients contributions, which seem to far outweigh his personal contributions. In those cases, it's more difficult to tell which contributions he specifically directed for a quid-pro-quo and which were initiated by the clients themselves. Some of the contributions from his clients were to Democrats.

[Rainscents]

14. Clients to others are legal!!

This is the way Randi Rhodes, Mike Malloy and Sam Seeder explained. However, Abramoff, his money, he bought VOTES!!! This is illegal!!!

[hughee99]

15. If he directs a client to donate money

for a quid-pro-quo he orchestrated, it is also illegal.

[Rainscents]

17. Yes true, however, none of that went to Dems!!!

Mike Malloy was very angry at people last week and he went on ranting for two days!!! Don't buy into GOP bullshit lies!!!

[hughee99]

19. I'm not "buying" anything...

I'm just saying that his clients did indeed donate to both repukes and Democrats. I don't know if he directed any of these contributions to Dems. I don't mean to imply that anything was improper in the contributions to Dems.

[Richard Steele]

21. Please bear in mind:

His "CLIENTS" are not his co-conspiritors,
they are his VICTIMS.

He STOLE from them; he manipulated them to con them out of their money.

He referred to some of them as 'monkeys from the tribal council';
He once referred to them as 'troglodytes'.
And when his partner in crime didn't recognize the word,
he said, "It's like a lower life form".

NONE of his VICTIMS are accused of any crimes.
Their LEGAL donations to politicians and PACs
were exactly that: LEGAL.

[ieoeja]

33. Reminder: this was a minority group giving to Democrats.

That is hardly suspicious. I went to http://www.opensecrets.org and did a search on the top Abramoff client givers to Democrats -- using that Washington Post graphic -- and found that:

1. PRIOR to hiring Abramoff those who contributed monies contributed substantially more to Democrats, or about the same to both parties, and

2. AFTER hiring Abramoff they contributed substantially more to Republicans during each election year.

So Abramoff changed their contribution habits to the detriment of Democrats.


Furthermore, this is only an issue if you find a quid-pro-quo. Theoretically, Abramoff could have arranged for a Democratic recipient to act on the tribe's behalf in exchange for the tribe's contribution. In reality, as a life long Republican and major Republican fundraiser, Abramoff would have been the last person a Democratic legislator would have been likely to provide any sort of assistance.

[gumby]

20. It's not difficult at all.

NONE of the Abramoff money went to Democrats.

Exactly which "clients" were instructed to quid-pro-quo any Democrat?

You don't seem to understand the dynamic of the Abramoff/K-Street project. These guys HATE Democrats and were out to destroy them any way possible.

Once again, name those Dems.

[hughee99]

22. Did I say anywhere that

any clients were instructed to quid-pro-quo any Democrat? I don't recall saying that at all. I did say that it was more difficult to prove. Was I wrong?

[gumby]

25. You are correct.

You didn't say that Abramoff's clients instructed a quid-pro-quo.

However, you did say, "I'm just saying that his clients did indeed donate to both repukes and Democrats."

This is insuinating an untruth. Your underlying theme is a "both sides" argument that I reject and see as a hallmark of right-wing argument.

"His clients" DID NOT indeed donate to both parties. You ARE wrong.

[hughee99]

27. So your saying that people/groups who hired Jack Abramoff

as a lobbyist did not donate any money to democrats?

[w13rd0]

23. You see...

...there are known unknowns, and unknown unknowns, and although we can prove a known unknown due to the area of unknowing around it (why would Abramoff shield donations to Democrats to hide them, and not do so for his Republican ideaological brethren?)...

So unless Abramoff has been an infiltrator into the ranks of the Republicans since college, it's damned unlikely and there is no proof that he gave Democrats money. As the poster above said, see Dean. The Democrats have gone over this, they know they aren't involved. This is all GOP PAC. Tangential connections to "Abramoff associated clients" doesn't work for the RNC unless we can also say that Bush is tangentially associated with Ossama bin Laden through the same kinds of tenuous "connections".

[Up2Late]

26. All good points

Thanks.

[LynneSin]

28. Right here: Open Secrets

Here's the clarification: The money the democrats received were from Indian Tribes NOT Jack Abramoff directly. Many democrats have long standing relationships with these tribes and have fought hard for native-american rights. So the monies that Democrats have received are usually from these organizations NOT Jack Abramoff directly.

I've listed all the recipient's of Abramoff's money since 2000 (that's what's from Open Secrets). From that website you can drop down and check to see who has received monies from the various tribes.


http://www.capitaleye.org/abramoff_donor.asp
Recipients of money directly from Jack Abramoff
Recipient Donor Total Cycle
Frank A. LoBiondo (R-NJ) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela ($1,000) 2006
Eric Cantor (R-Va) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $8,000 2004
Republican Majority Fund, Leadership PAC of Don Nickles (R-Okla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $5,000 2004
Rich PAC, Leadership PAC of Richard Pombo (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $5,000 2004
Americans for a Republican Majority, Leadership PAC of Tom DeLay (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $5,000 2004
Arlen Specter (R-Pa) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $4,000 2004
George W. Bush (R) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $4,000 2004
John Ensign (R-Nev) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $4,000 2004
Johnny Isakson (R-Ga) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $4,000 2004
Keep Our Majority PAC, Leadership PAC of Dennis Hastert (R-Ill) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,500 2004
Charles H. Taylor (R-NC) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004
Chris Cannon (R-Utah) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004
Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004
Mark Foley (R-Fla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004
Leadership PAC 2004, Leadership PAC of Michael G. Oxley (R-Ohio) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004
Richard Pombo (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004
Senate Victory Fund, Leadership PAC of Thad Cochran (R-Miss) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004
Christopher S. 'Kit' Bond (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,500 2004
Curt Weldon (R-Pa) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
Doug Ose (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
Ernest J. Istook (R-Okla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
George R. Nethercutt Jr. (R-Wash) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
Jim Bunning (R-Ky) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
Richard C. Shelby (R-Ala) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
Rely on Your Beliefs, Leadership PAC of Roy Blunt (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
Tom DeLay (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
Tom Feeney (R-Fla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
Americans for a Republican Majority, Leadership PAC of Tom DeLay (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $10,000 2002
Friends of the Big Sky, Leadership PAC of Conrad Burns (R-Mont) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $5,000 2002
Republican Party of New Jersey Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $5,000 2002
Senate Victory Fund, Leadership PAC of Thad Cochran (R-Miss) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $5,000 2002
Dan Burton (R-Ind) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $3,000 2002
Eric Cantor (R-Va) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $3,000 2002
Suzanne Terrell (R-La) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $3,000 2002
American Liberty PAC, Leadership PAC of Bob Ney (R-Ohio) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,500 2002
Rob Simmons (R-Conn) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,250 2002
Charles W. "Chip" Pickering Jr. (R-Miss) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
Connie Morella (R-Md) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
Gordon H. Smith (R-Ore) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
James M. Inhofe (R-Okla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
James M. Talent (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
John T. Doolittle (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
John Thune (R-SD) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
Tim Hutchinson (R-Ark) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
Tom DeLay (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
Bob Smith (R-Fla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,240 2002
Bob Ney (R-Ohio) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
C. L. "Butch" Otter (R-Idaho) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Carolyn W. Grant (R-NC) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Denny Rehberg (R-Mont) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Elizabeth Dole (R-NC) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Frank A. LoBiondo (R-NJ) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Heather Wilson (R-NM) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
J. Randy Forbes (R-Va) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Jack Kingston (R-Ga) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
James V. Hansen (R-Utah) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
John Cornyn (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Battle Born PAC, Leadership PAC of John Ensign (R-Nev) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Kimo Kaloi (R-Hawaii) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Marilyn Musgrave (R-Colo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Mike Ferguson (R-NJ) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Mike Simpson (R-Idaho) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Ralph Regula (R-Ohio) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Ric Keller (R-Fla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Rely on Your Beliefs, Leadership PAC of Roy Blunt (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Thad Cochran (R-Miss) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
Dave Camp (R-Mich) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2002
Phil Gingrey (R-Ga) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2002
Tom Young (R-Ala) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2002
Bill Janklow (R-SD) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $250 2002
Rely on Your Beliefs, Leadership PAC of Roy Blunt (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $6,500 2000
Americans for a Republican Majority, Leadership PAC of Tom DeLay (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $4,000 2000
Tom DeLay (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $4,000 2000
Fund for a Free Market America, Leadership PAC of Phil Crane (R-Ill) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,750 2000
Bob Ney (R-Ohio) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
Craig Thomas (R-Wyo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
Dan Burton (R-Ind) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
Eric Cantor (R-Va) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
George W. Bush (R) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
John Ashcroft (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
John T. Doolittle (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
Spencer Abraham (R-Mich) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
William L. Gormley (R-NJ) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
Bill McCollum (R-Fla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
Bill Redmond (R-NM) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
Bob Riley (R-Ala) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
C. L. "Butch" Otter (R-Idaho) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
Claude B. Hutchison Jr. (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
Denny Rehberg (R-Mont) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
Francis E. Flotron (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
George Allen (R-Va) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
Team PAC, Leadership PAC of J. D. Hayworth (R-Ariz) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
Mike Enzi (R-Wyo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
Walter B. Jones Jr. (R-NC) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
Paul Ryan (R-Wis) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $949 2000
Bob Smith (R-Fla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $920 2000
Joe Pitts (R-Pa) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $894 2000
Charles H. Taylor (R-NC) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $750 2000
Bob Ehrlich (R-Md) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
Charles R. Gerow (R-Pa) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
Charles W. "Chip" Pickering Jr. (R-Miss) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
Ed Royce (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
Elia Vincent Pirozzi (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
Jerry Weller (R-Ill) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
Mark Emerson (R-Utah) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
Tom Davis (R-Va) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
Van Hilleary (R-Tenn) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
Rick A. Lazio (R-NY) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $250 2000

Now, let's consider Patrick Kennedy, nephew of JFK, representative out of RI and a key name in Native American Rights & Activism. This man has fought hard to bring justice for Native-Americans who have been brutalized throughout American history and trust me, this guy hardly corrupt (not in the Cunningham/Delay/Ney manner!!). Yet Kennedy has received over $42,000 from the various tribes associated with Abramoff. It's natural for someone who has been fighting hard for Native-American rights to receive large amounts of donations from the various tribes but I would hardly think someone like Patrick Kennedy would be in bed with the likes of Delay, Ney and the other corrupt repukes who have been profiteering off of these organizations.

http://www.capitaleye.org/abramoff_recips_detail.asp?type=R&Name=Patrick+J%2E+Kennedy+%28D%2DRI%29

[Up2Late]

32. Thanks, that helps a lot. For the record, I'm not questioning this...

...argument, just that I had not seen the proof yet. This is very unusual for me, because I'm one of the people who usually ends up debunking the "too good to be true" mis-information that comes from 2nd and 3rd hand, edited "news" sources.

I have always been one of the strongest defenders of the Kennedy family and have a great deal of respect for their efforts, but it was a very uncomfortable position I found myself in when I realized, during my conversation with my Dad, that I hadn't see the proof, but was only going on what I had read here, something a LOT of us here are often guilty of.

Just for the record, most of my family are "Yellow Dog" Democrats.

[McCamy Taylor]

31. Has the DOJ targetted a Dem Congressman? 'Nuff proof for me.

[ddeclue]

34. You are asking people to prove a negative...

Almost impossible to do.

That is why the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the accuser. Those doing the accusing must prove that Democrats DID take money. We don't have to prove that Democrat's DIDN'T take money. They need to make a specific offer of proof and then we need to refute that offer.

It's like me asking you to prove that you do not beat your wife or asking you when you stopped beating her.

Don't fall for that lame propaganda trick.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[Zen Democrat]

35. Dean says a search of FEC records shows no Abramoff money to Democrats.

None. The Rove-induced confusion is that many Dems took donations from some of the tribes, and some had received such donations for years, especially Dem politicians representing states with politically active Indian populations. This money didn't have an "Abramoff angle" attached to it.

The Repugs are being accused of taking money for specific votes. It's not about campaign donations, it's about bribery.