Some Californians are still upset about the rejection of Prop. 73

[question everything]

And people everywhere, who want parental notification, still whine that "their permission is required to give Tylenol to their kids, but not for abortion?"

And I have to wonder whether these people are really so obtuse or they are just pretending. Or have they quickly forgot the time when they were teen agers? Or, perhaps, remember it too well and are now trying to shape the lives of their kids without a clue?

And some complain that Prop. 73 was rejected as part of rejecting everything. Nice try.

Thus, it is up to us to continue to tell these people, louder and louder that giving Tylenol to a teen ager, or approving ear piercing, and any other medical procedure that do not result from sexual activities is different.

That as much as we would like to have happy families where kids talk to their parents; as much as we would like to raise responsible kids who do not engage in sex until they are mature and, either way, understand the consequences and behave responsibly, that this is not always the way things are.

And perhaps we need to put it to these parents in a brutal way - would you rather have your daughter die in a back ally abortion because for some reason, she did not feel comfortable in approaching you?

And, yes, let some of them come out and say yes. I will dare them. We all need to dare them.

[aquart]

1. My mother's favorite cousin died "from a fall down the stairs."

Which was the euphemism for 'filthy back alley abortion.'

[melody]

2. Most of these people are too rich or too dumb to care

If you look at the people who trumpeted this bill loudest (right-wingnuts like Patricia Heaton from "Everybody Loves Raymond"), they're almost all white and wealthy.

The knowledge that there are thousands of at-risk teenage girls without good parents is apparently beyond their tiny heads.

[Andromeda]

16. Delete

[Andromeda]

17. I think Patricia Heaton has four kids,

and they are all boys, I think.

[Kerrytravelers]

3. If you would want your daughter to tell you, raise her in a home where she

feels safe. Or isn't getting sexually abused in. It's that simple.

These people are truly living in a dream world.

[JI7]

5. yup

as there ARE asshole parents out there who would beat and kill their daughters if they found out she was pregnant. and the cases where a relative had raped her and got her pregnant.

you know, i have NEVER heard any of these idiots who want parental notification respond to the above situations.

[MADem]

12. Yep, there is NO SUBSTITUTE for honest, open communication

and a willingness to really listen to your children.

But hey, these are parents who must have gotten their information from the National Geographic and the schoolyard, and if it was good enough for them....!!

[JI7]

4. just so fucking stupid

it's really sickening when they make these comparisons to Tylenol, or getting ears pierced , tattoos etc.

[LostInAnomie]

6. It is a complete lack of empathy...

... and ignorance of the situation some people are placed in by circumstance. When most people hear about parental notification they only apply it to their own situation. They think "Well, she shouldn't have to worry about me. I would drive her there myself." or "Of course I would want to know. I would never let my daughter get an abortion.". They don't think about the girl who comes from an abusive house hold who's parents would beat her, or the girls who would be thrown out on the street if her parents found out.

That is part of the problem with the system. People are so used to looking out for their own interest that they no longer worry about others in bad situations. That is no way to run a society.

[question everything]

10. and imagination

Or they think that their daughter would never get pregnant "out of wedlock." She probably is wearing that chastity ring. And I am sure there is the stats someplace that reveal how many of the teens sworn to abstinence do get pregnant. Proportionally there are even higher, since they find themselves in a situation for which they are ill prepared.

And, really, there is no way for them to predict how their daughter would behave if she finds herself pregnant. There is no way for any of us to predict. Which is why we are for expanding rights while they are for restricting them.

[bluestateguy]

7. If they don't like it, they can move to Mississippi

The people of California voted, that's what their law is, and if these whiners feel strongly enough they can move to the Red States where the laws are more to their liking.

[Sandpiper]

8. If she trusts you, she'll tell you

If she feels like she can't tell you, she's not the problem.

[rocktivity]

9. I was surprised that it lost by such a wide margin

I thought that it any one of the props won, it would be that one, but only by a point or two. According to VoteCircle.com, it lost 52-47.

Was it voted down as part of a general rejection of Arnold? Possibly. But it's equally possible that the only reason Prop 73 was on the ballot was as a "wedge issue" that would bring out religious right wingers in sufficent numbers to vote yes on everything. They (mis)underestimated how much bad will Arnold had generated.

:headbang:
rocknation

[kevinmc]

11. I'm suprised......

they aren't screaming about "Activist Voters".

[tamtam]

13. You know something

All those people crying about prop 73 obviously have something to worry about. If you are raising your child to be open and honest with you, then what do you have to worry about? If you know for sure your child is not having sex ,and if she were, she would be open and honest with you then why worry? So now all these parents want the state and local government to parent for them. It's not enough for them to do a little work at home and maybe compromise a little in their parenting for the safety of their children no they want the STATE to make their children talk to them.

I say, well if your daughter is not having pre-marital sex and if your child feels comfortable talking to you then what do you have to worry about? Kind of like them telling me "if your not breaking the law then you have nothing to worry about" this regarding the patriot act. I know the patriot act and parental notification are two totally different laws but it's still fun to turn it around on them.

I think it's funny that the fundamentalist crowd is crying foul over prop 73. You would think they of all people have the perfect household with perfect little children. Surely, there are no Christian girls running around getting pregnant, there are no Christan parents who sexually, mentally, or physically abuse their children, surely not. :sarcasm:

[question everything]

23. This is really a great point - using their own terms

an acquaintance of mine was all hot about her right to parent her daughters - and I've never came back to her - claiming that Prop. 73 was needed. Otherwise "why have parents? Let's just take babies and raise them in a politically correct institution."

And this would be a great reply: why can't parents be good parents so their daughters do not end being pregnant and in need of abortion, so they need the state to do the parenting for them?

[XemaSab]

14. It's the same idiots

who oppose teaching sex ed in schools, and oppose giving the HPV vaccine to girls.

I really don't fucking get it.

No concept of reality AT ALL.

[BlueIris]

15. Oh, my God...a thread filled with sane, pro-choice, non-misogynists.

And GOOD parents. On DU! Right now! I LOVE YOU ALL!!!!

I can't believe how many assholes still don't recognize that a woman, even a young woman, has a right to medical privacy and young women should have it from the age they being menstruating. A pregnancy in many other civilized blue states can mean a woman is an emancipated minor, by definition, a person who is supposed to make her own decisions about her life, health, and body free from the interference of others. That is the point, as much as anything else. This is about PRIVACY, as much as it is our daughters, sisters and mothers' human rights to control their bodies with the same freedom men enjoy. Too many on DU still don't understand this, claiming the only offensive thing is that obstruction of abortion rights in any form, even "only" notification, ultimately WILL kill and harm women. The most offensive thing is that asshole misogynist hypocrites believe they have the right to infringe on MY rights at all, especially those regarding my health.

I'm happy to see no such assholes reside in this thread.

[Andromeda]

18. People who wanted prop 73 to pass,

aren't living in the real world. This isn't a parent's right issue and it's difficult to convince those parents that 73 won't protect their kids.

If a girl is raped by her father, brother or other member of her family she certainly cannot tell her parents and expect to get fair treatment, at least in the majority of cases, because a household where something like that could happen is usually very dysfunctional.

If she becomes pregnant many disastrous scenarios could play out: She could get kicked out of her home; She could be beaten, or worse. Rarely is the girl able to get the kind of support she needs in these cases.

A daughter who is scared to tell her parents could be driven to get an unsafe, illegal abortion which could cost her, her life.

Not all parents are nice people; in fact, parents usually have no idea that their kids do things they don't know about. Kids are secretive and basically don't feel comfortable in confiding personal secrets to an adult.

Parents who wanted this barbaric law to pass are living in an ivory tower where abuse doesn't happen and where children tell their parents everything.

They just don't have a clue.

[Hekate]

19. I find myself torn, actually. Don't jump: you know I'm pro-choice

I think I understand the fears of a lot of decent parents out there, who only want what's best for their daughter and can't imagine her going through something as scary and life-changing as an abortion all by herself.

My own daughter was a wild child and caused me a lot of anguish in her teen years. There was little real communication. I would have been happy to drive her to the doctor for a birth control and facts of life consult, but she was too busy throwing her sexuality in my face to stand for any of that crap. She was pretty sure she knew everything she needed to know, thank you very much. I finally sent her to live with her dad for awhile, and he got her on the Pill. Then she got pregnant -- she swore she took the Pill faithfully, but I wasn't so sure. (It was years later that I found out that the Pill today is a lot weaker than the dose I had when I was young, and there's no margin for error.) Abortion was out of the quesion, in her mind: she fell in love with the idea of having a baby, and it was only a miscarriage that saved her from being a mother at 17. The experience was plenty sad and scary for her -- afterward I created a ritual for her that she appreciated a lot, so in that way we healed our own rift somewhat.

What if my young daughter's willfullness had led her in the other direction -- that is, what if she had decided to have an abortion, but thought she could do *that* without any adult guidance? If there was a law requiring her to get her parents' consent, I am absolutely sure the girl she was then would have figured out another way, a more dangerous way.

I was so different as a teenager that it isn't even funny. I tried to do what my mother wanted me to do -- honest, I'm the oldest so I had to be "responsible." What would I have done if I had gotten pregnant before marriage? I don't think I could have faced my mother's disappointment. So I can well imagine "good girls" wanting to manage an abortion on their own.

In the end it's like Kate Michelman's comment about Alito's belief that the husband-consent requirement would not pose an undue burden on most women because most women actually do involve their husbands in the decision: "In other words, the only women for whom it would be an undue burden are those for whom it is burdensome."

I have to come down on the side of not requiring girls to go to their parents for permission for an abortion. I voted against Prop. 73, and will do so every time it comes up in the future. I hope that doctors and clinics would urge a girl to confide in an adult, but if for any reason she doesn't think she can, she should not be forced to.

But I still understand how the hearts of parents can hurt at the thought of being excluded from something this important.

BTW, my daughter will be 30 next month, and has a wonderful baby boy who just turned one year. :-) :-)

Hekate

[Yupster]

21. My concern is what if there are complications

with the abortion.

What if it didn't go well and there is internal bleeding or an infection?

As the 13 year old daughter turns white and spends her days sick in bed and visiting doctors, the mother is going to be absolutely frantical trying to find out what is wrong with her daughter.

Is the doctor supposed to tell her if there ae complications? Or will the doctor say he can't tell the mother anything?

This would make a mother go nuts if the doctors were treating the 13 year old daughter for something that obviously is very serious and the mother is intentionally kept in the dark.

Does anyone know how that would be treated because obviously not all abortions go the way they are supposed to just like every other operation.

[question everything]

25. The question is whether abortion clinics do a follow up

most of us, when we have any medical procedure, get a call later that day from the clinic or the hospital to check on us. If the abortion clinic calls the girl and finds that there are complications then, obviously, there should be a plan B.

On the other hand, I would think that any physician would recognize complication from abortion when s/he sees one.

In medical schools in California, by the way, performing abortion is being taught - by state law. Too many medical schools do not teach this. And one has to wonder about those poor women who are happily pregnant and then they have an incomplete miscarriage that requires the D&C to complete it.

[Yupster]

29. Yes I'm talking about cases

where there are serious complications from an abortion.

Let's just say an infection with bleeding.

The girl would be very sick, she would look and act very sick, she would be being treated by doctors, and her mother? What?

The mother is not to be told what is going on with her daughter?

If the girl goes into the hospital for treatment, the doctors are supposed to tell the mother what?

We're sorry Mrs. Jones. Yes your daughter is quite ill from infection, we do know what caused it, but we can't tell you. Don't worry, we're treating her.

A parent would go nuts wouldn't she?

[question everything]

30. Obviously, in this case, the mother should be told

and perhaps alert social services if the girl is in danger of being kicked out.

And if the girl is not unconscious, she will be told that her mother is going to be told. Who knows, the girl may be relieved.

[Yupster]

31. Is that in the law?

In the case I described does the law say the mother should be told, or does the law say that no one should tell the mother unless the daughter says she wants her told?

If it is not in the law that the mother must be told in that case, I would call it an incredible abuse of parental rights to have a very sick daughter in the hospital and everyone knows what's wrong with the girl ecept the mother and no one is allowed to tell her.

That would be horrific.

On edit - my point of view comes from my being a parent.

[question everything]

32. Yes, Please read a detailed explanation in the California forum

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=141&topic_id=17634&mesg_id=17682

The privacy protects only the abortion itself, not any medical procedure that follows it, that then fall under the rule where parents are notified.

[question everything]

24. The bottom line is that our children are independent human beings,

they are not programmed robots to behave the way we want them.

Yes, even the most loving parents, who think that they have open communications can be surprised. None of us, regardless of age, can determine how we will behave under certain circumstances. Even at war - soldiers are trained to behave in a certain way and then, under fire, they freeze, or they behave inhumanly. None of us can predict how we will behave during a natural disaster when our instinct is to save ourselves, our families, at all cost.

So even those parents who are so certain that they have open communications - may be surprised.

I have to wonder. How many of these parents who want to be notified, actually sat down with their daughters to tell them something like that: I love and trust you, and you know my values and I hope that you follow them. But if something happens and you do find yourself pregnant, I hope that you will keep me in the picture, so that we can work on this together.

Of course, if the parent is known to oppose abortion and for the daughter the whole idea of carrying the pregnancy to term is horrifying, none of this pep talk will help. Worse, she will make sure that her parents do not know. Of course, sometimes the daughter is surprised to find out that her parents' opinion changes once they find themselves facing a real, not an imaginary situation.

This is probably the essence of a difference between liberals and Conservatives. No, not "everything goes" the way they like to paint us. But realizing that we cannot sit in judgment until we have been in that person's shoes and even then, we recognize that we are different in the way we react.

[Popol Vuh]

20. I am curious

Does anybody know whether or not if the text of proposition 73 tried to sneak in a redefining of at what stage during pregnancy a fertilized egg is no longer considered just a fertilized egg?

It just seems to me that proposition 73 was put on the ballot for one of two purposes. Either it was put on the ballot to rally the anti-abortion religious/conservative base to the polls. Or it was used as a tool by the anti-abortion crowd to try and redefine when life begins.

[UrbScotty]

22. Get over it. (nt)

[Mz Pip]

26. This is kind of like

the "partial birth" issue. The RWers make such a fuss about something that is very rare. Same with this. Most girls do involve a parent when they have an abortion. The ones that don't have a good reason not to.

The government cannot legislate family communication. In a perfect world this wouldn't be an issue, but life is complicated.

Comparing and abortion to getting ears pierced is an apples/oranges comparison.

The people who use this argument would like to outlaw all abortions but will take whatever they can get.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Mountainman]

27. This was not about parental notification. It was a stealth prop to end

abortion. The proposition would have amended the state constitution to call a fetus an unborn child.

The parental notification was like a sugar coating to make it pass. Many people saw through the smoke screen.

[JunkYardDogg]

28. Abortion was Good enough for Bush in 1970 when he knocked up a woman

In 1970, prior to Roe v Wade,
our Fearless leader impregnated a woman , when he was in college ,
she got an abortion.
Larry Flynt had investigators track her down
they located the Doctor, her girlfriends who verified the story, and they located the woman.
At the first meeting, she was working at a $12,000 waitress job.
When the investigators contacted her again, she was living in a $500,000 house.

[yankeeinlouisiana]

33. And children do not need their parents permission

to get pregnant, carry and deliver a pregnancy, which is riskier than an abortion.