Kerry's Strategy for Success in Iraq

[Popol Vuh]

http://members.cox.net/popol_vuh/Iraq.wmv

IMO - it may sound ok. But its not going to be accepted by most Iraqis. Most Iraqis don't recognize the new Iraqi regime; they view it as nothing more than an American puppet regime to secure American interests over Iraqi interests. Most Iraqis now resent the United States and don't want Americans to stay in Iraq for even one more day; they no longer have any trust or like for us. They view us as occupiers.

(John Kerry - April 22, 1971)

"Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese...."

"Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doesn't have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say that we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war.""

"We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? But we are trying to do that, and we are doing it with thousands of rationalizations, and if you read carefully the President's last speech to the people of this country, you can see that he says and says clearly:"

"But the issue, gentlemen, the issue is communism, and the question is whether or not we will leave that country to the Communists or whether or not we will try to give it hope to be a free people."

"But the point is they are not a free people now under us. They are not a free people, and we cannot fight communism all over the world, and I think we should have learned that lesson by now...."

http://members.cox.net/popol_vuh/Iraq.wmv

[LittleClarkie]

1. Do you have a source for your information on what the Iraqis want?

I'd just like to read it for myself as well. Have polls been conducted? Thanks.

[Popol Vuh]

2. I provided an example

of that in the video link..

[LittleClarkie]

3. Ah, that's why I didn't see it. My computer sucks

could you give me a taste of what's in the video. I'd be much obliged.

[Popol Vuh]

5. It would be my pleasure LittleClarkie

Hi LittleClarkie :hi:


The video shows various interviews with Iraqi citizens. And you can hear them say things such as: They don't recognize the new Iraqi government, they don't know who they are. They feel they are there to represent American interests. You also hear them say that they didn't fight Bush as first; that they gave him a chance. But they haven't seen any kind of liberation from the Americans and they no longer trust them. You hear them say that they don't except an American occupation and that they will fight the Americans until they leave.

That's pretty much the most of it..

[Douglas Carpenter]

7. here is some info on polls of Iraqi opinion

link:

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m17469&date=05-nov-2005_03:09_ECT

"Some polls have asked Iraqis specifically about the presence of U.S. troops, and guess what: they want us to leave. A February poll by the U.S. military, cited by the Brookings Institution, found that 71 percent of Iraqis "oppose the presence of Coalition Forces in Iraq." This poll was taken only in urban areas, but others have found much the same sentiment. According to a January 2005 poll by Abu Dhabi TV/Zogby International, 82 percent of Sunni Arabs and 69 percent of Shiite Arabs favor the withdrawal of U.S. troops either immediately or after an elected government is in place."

and this one is a from the British Ministry of Defense

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/10/23/ixportaltop.html

"Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province;

• 82 per cent are "strongly opposed" to the presence of coalition troops;

• less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security;

• 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation;

• 43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened;

• 72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces."

[LittleClarkie]

8. Thanks Douglas and Popol

I will bookmark this thread. Good info.

[Popol Vuh]

9. Yes thank you Douglas

for posting your links. And its always a pleasure discussing views with DU'ers like yourself LittleClarkie.

[LittleClarkie]

10. Blush

Aw shucks.

:blush:

[Douglas Carpenter]

11. glad I could help

I went ahead and posted the British MOD poll on a separate thread because I think it is so important and got so little coverage in the U.S. It is interesting to me that the this story was broke by The Telegraph which has a reputation as a distinctly conservative/Thatcherite newspaper.

[ray of light]

4. also, the "political solution" that Kerry endorses

IS the people in Iraq's voice (assuming they haven't been suppressed as we are here in the undemocratic U.S.A.).

The "political" solution IS the Iraqis people speaking out and getting their votes, etc...It is NOT an American imposing our political solution on them endlessly, but is instead saying, "You the people of Iraq have spoken, now we will leave you to run your own country."

Ok..it's my paraphrasing. BUT JK did in essence say, "We don't belong there imposing our views on you."

[second edition]

6. Your argument is counter to what I have read about the situation.

The Sunnis are most resentful because they have lost the most with the toppling of Saddam. They mostly want us out and they make up the majority of the terrorists. Obviously, the votes that have taken place so far seem to indicate many Iraqi's aren't opposed to the changes taken place,that is unless you want to believe the voting was rigged. Now, with a prolonged occupation and control the Kurds and the Shiites may get uneasy with our presence. But, right now, the Shiites are comfortable with our assistance.(maybe a little to comfortable) They have not experienced so much freedom or control for many, many years.

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. Shiite/Sunni opinion

According to a January 2005 poll by Abu Dhabi TV/Zogby International, 82 percent of Sunni Arabs and 69 percent of Shiite Arabs favor the withdrawal of U.S. troops either immediately or after an elected government is in place."

I should mention that the British Ministry of Defense commission poll in the Shia Maysan province (again see # 7) reprts that 65% of the local Shia population supports attacks against coalition forces.

for link please see#7

[ray of light]

12. I don't mean to be rude, but the data shows Iraqi don't like BUSH's

solution but they may prefer Kerry's but it's not in that data.

So we all agree! Bush's solution sucks. My guess is they really would hate McCain's solution of bringing in MORE troops.

[Douglas Carpenter]

14. with all due respect to Sen. Kerry, I don't see any evidence

that any plan that involves the continuation of U.S. presence will be supported by the vast majority of Iraqi's.

As I mentioned above, even in the British-controlled Maysan province which is Shia territory--65% actually support attacks against coalition forces. For links to sources, please see # 7. This was a poll commissioned by the British Ministry of Defense and reported in the very conservative Sunday Telegraph of London

[blm]

15. Kerry consulted with some leaders in Iraqi parliament before he drew up

this plan. He had also consulted with commanders on the ground in Iraq when he was there and also with UN officials and other leaders.

He came up with what was doable, not perfect, because perfect isn't achievable.

Success is based on opportunity, not perfection.

[ray of light]

16. right.

[Douglas Carpenter]

17. I would only like to ask Sen. Kerry,"How do you ask someone

to be the last person to die for a mistake?"

Of course I would support Sen. Kerry if he became the nominee in 2008 just as I supported him in 2004.

However, it is just downright intellectually-dishonest, dangerous, short-sighted and irresponsible to pretend the Iraqi people with their nationalist, Islamic and Arabic sensitivities will ever accept any government that is seen as imposed from outside. During Viet Nam the called it "Viet Namization". It didn't work. Escapist denial of reality is not going to work now, anymore than it worked then.

[blm]

18. And yet his withdrawal plan is still the only FEASIBLE plan submitted.

.

[Douglas Carpenter]

19. well if someone wants to believe it is feasible, I suppose they can

[blm]

20. I'd suggest checking Tom Hayden's analysis on the plan. He believes it's

doable and has written several times about it these past weeks since the plan was delivered in the Georgetown speech.

His remarks are at the Huff post. You may find some solid reasoning there on Kerry's plan from the antiwar pov.

[Douglas Carpenter]

21. Thank you, I will take a look at Hayden's analysis

But, what I think or you think or Hayden thinks or Kerry thinks is all irrelevant. It's what the Iraqi people think that matters. And very few of them want us there one more day and at least half of them are supporting those who are shooting us to get us out.

Again thank you for this reference.

[Douglas Carpenter]

22. okay Thanks, I think Tom is being a bit more realistic -- If Kerry's plan

is modified closer to these realities -- then there is something to work with

here is the link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-hayden/support-for-kerry-speech_b_9632.html


snip
"I believe the analysis should prepare the public for the failure of "Iraqization" instead of the Bush fantasty that the Iraqi "security forces" will have the committment and capability to fight the resistance any time soon, if ever."

[ray of light]

23. Douglas, you're thinking that the U.S. is imposing it--or Kerry--it's not!

Supposedly these are the people of Iraq doing the "political process" themselves.

And Kerry is allowing them that opportunity to stand up for themselves and then getting US out of there on a sped up time table.

He is NOT trying to impose our view on them. I think that is the Bush regime doing that.

[Douglas Carpenter]

24. well, if they stick to that fine. But, it will not be easy to convince

the Iraqi's. Furthermore, having spent so much of my life in the Arab world, I know that any foreign military presence will be interpreted (correctly or incorrectly) as a a repeat of the crusades (which they talk about like it happened yesterday) and a return to colonialism. As long as our fire power is there -- a flash point of antagonism will continue. If the U.S. forces then pull back but remain in compounds, what will happen if the U.S. backed Iraqi forces will not or cannot handle a situation?

I am certainly not accusing Sen. Kerry of ANY evil intent. This is just the nature of all occupations no matter what the intent.

[Douglas Carpenter]

25. /