Women ain't goin to the back of the bus

[omega minimo]

The legacy of Rosa Parks lives on. Tribute stories today with the news of her passing reflect that when she refused to give up her seat on the bus:

She was already an activist
She was tired of continuous demeaning treatment
She felt that she had a right to her place on the bus
She proved that one person can make a difference

There are some parallels here on DU and in the larger Democrat/Progressive community.

Many women here are already activists, or innate activists via experience of continuous demeaning treatment as second class citizens in a man's world. We're tired of it. We feel we have a rightful place in the dialog, in the leadership and in the solution-building.

We know that one person can make a difference. We do it every day.

Whether we challenge bigoted treatment of us because we are women; or whether we accommodate to the demands of survival in male dominant environments, we make those choices all the time.

Challenging and healing sexist bigotry at this crucial political moment is not an afterthought, it is an imperative. As the opposition to the current administration continues to reinvent itself, women's issues and participation are at the heart of any success that progressives hope to have.

The Right Wing wedge issues are all based on one thing. The gay marriage issue, the abortion issue, women's rights issues all hinge on CONTROL-- on maintaining the male dominant hierarchy at all levels of this patriarchal system.

This system is what must be challenged, healed and changed. This system is the genesis of war, bloodshed, exploitation and the triune desert sky-god religions trying to annihilate each other.

Women are in a unique position to challenge, heal and change this system. We have unique skills to offer:

The ability to listen without defensiveness
The ability to think about and do more than one thing at a time
The ability to see other points of view
The gift of empathy
The power of communication
The power of cooperation
The awareness that one person can make a difference

Did I forget anything?

:patriot:

[Tab]

1. Specifically...

[omega minimo]

2. Amazing that she passed at this moment and her meaning is

reverberating thru this week of hope for freedom :hi:

[Captain Hilts]

3. I hope the last list is a joke.

I know plenty of men with those abilities.

[HEyHEY]

6. Well...based on the women I know the first one on that last list is bull

*ducks* :hide:

[DemDogs]

121. Agreed. And lots of women without them.

How 'bout George's mom?
When you start saying women are different than men, you open a nasty door feminists have been trying to shut for a long time.

[BattyDem]

4. Excellent post!

:toast:

[omega minimo]

10. Cheers

not jeers :toast:

[HEyHEY]

5. Well, blaming men for violence in the world is a scapegoat

There are people out there that are just violent, men and women. And just going of and saying the world is violent because of men IS driving a wedge.

[omega minimo]

7. Said "system" not "men"

[HEyHEY]

8. But you said men control the system

[Der Blaue Engel]

12. That's just a fact

Just as white dominance of society produces moral ills, so does male dominance. It doesn't make all white people bad, or all men bad, but it is the faulty, skewed system of power currently at work.

[HEyHEY]

14. The problem is assholes control the system, sex is of little matter

[Der Blaue Engel]

16. It's not just a coincidence that they're male, though

Patriarchy has a long, long history, and by its very nature, encourages men in power to be assholes.

[HEyHEY]

24. Plenty of women in power have been assholes - PLENTY

[Der Blaue Engel]

48. Proportionately, more have been male

I'm simply talking about a global, historical power disparity that is clearly based on sex. I'm not arguing about what it means, I'm simply telling you it exists.

[HEyHEY]

50. Actually proportionately more women leaders were pricks than men leaders

I won't argue that men have had the power base, but I will not accept this myth that women are incapable of the same kinda creey behaviour

[Der Blaue Engel]

54. There haven't been that many women leaders in the grand scheme of things

so I'm not sure what you mean.

I never said women were incapable of the same behavior, just that the balance of power has made it preponderously on the part of men, and I believe that a more equal distribution of power would lead to far less abuse.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

107. HeyHey is not a woman-hater. That's a bullshit accusation.

Just because he doesn't like sexist remarks against men from a woman who supposedly decries sexism does not mean he hates women.

[smirkymonkey]

111. Did I call anyone in particular out? No, I did not.

Nor did I accuse anybody. YOUR accusation is bullshit.

I simply noted that these posts always seem to bring out those who are constantly on the defense whenever a woman has a legitimate issue or complaint about sexism, and they always manage, in so many words, to discount and discredit the personal feelings and observations of the women commenting on the issue.

Why is it that I, as a white person, can listen to a person of another race complain of racism - and see that it does indeed exist and that the concerns are valid - while there are so many men that can not even begin to consider the legitimacy of a complaint of sexism. These posts bring out THOSE particular men in droves.

[HughBeaumont]

69. Carly Fiorina; Condosleeza Rice; Leona Helmsley . ..

Dianne FeinSwine, Marie Antoinette,

[HEyHEY]

70. Maggie thatcher, cleopatra, helen of troy

Indira Gahndi got into a war.. .that one from Romania

[Cleita]

144. Well said.

It's not that all women are better than men or vice versa, it's just that too many men still think they are better than all women and unfortunately statistics bear out the fact that in the USA and many other countries, the major balance of power and money are still in the hands of men, the majority of whom are white men.

Now it's natural that those men would look after their own interests first, thus creating unbalanced priorties for all, even those created against the best interests of those in the underclasses. For example, men telling women how they can manage their fertility, through making access to contraception difficult and access to abortions dangerous is against the best interests of all women, yet religious institutions run mainly by men have decided that this is what women should do.

[femrap]

79. Look at reality.....94% of the prison population is

male. 94%! What does that tell you?

[Scout]

93. good book out there

can't remember the author, but the title is:

Men Are Not Cost Effective

[Erika]

9. And that always we strive to teach our children fairness

and to stand up for themselves and their beliefs. The GOP can restrict women to certain roles and restrict the poor from advantages, and discriminate by sexual orientation, that is not us nor do we respect or tolerate that division.

Great post.

[omega minimo]

11. Awareness of their place in a shared world

:thumbsup:

[LittleClarkie]

13. I'm not sure women's struggles can be compared to those of black folk

The struggle for civil rights among black people would seem to be the more severe fight.

Sort of like comparing Abu Ghraib to the Holocaust, even with the best of intentions, the comparison cheapens the deeper struggle of the Jews in the one case and blacks in the other.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

17. I've never seen a woman strung up in a tree, have you?

pssst... look in my profile...

[omega minimo]

20. Can you imagine a "CSI" franchise where every victim was black?

rather than the vile insanity perpetrated on women for entertainment every week in living rooms across America?

I don't see this as an either/or or an argument LC, so please, let's not misunderstand each other.

[HEyHEY]

31. How about a show where every person arrested was black?

Oh wait, we have that!

[LittleClarkie]

35. Bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do

when they come for you...

You mean like that one?

[HEyHEY]

45. That's the one!

[Erika]

21. I've seen injustices to battered women that you've never seen

I'm sure. And to young girls. In the early 1900's, women here had a mortality rate of 14% when giving birth. The atrocities shown to women have been extreme. How you can just say well others had it worse is beyond me and I lose respect for the poster.

[HEyHEY]

29. It's unfortunate, but how is a 14 per cent death rate while giving birth

DIscrimination?

Your lack of knowledge that people in history have had it worse...MUCH worse... makes me lose respect for you... every heard of the holocaust?

[newswolf56]

55. Citing history, those who argue official discrimination against women...

long outlasted slavery in the United States argue correctly. The slaves were liberated by the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 and their freedoms (including the voting rights of male blacks) were (theoretically) guaranteed by the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments (1865-1870); female suffrage was not granted nationwide until the 19th Amendment (1920).

The significance of these facts is irrevocably damning: women were officially considered non-persons by the United States for fully 50 years after slavery was ended and black males (theoretically) granted full rights of citizenship.

Probably the reason misogynism is so persistent in U.S. society even today is the dominance of Christianity. Unlike racial discrimination (which is sanctioned by only the most Ku Klux Khristian interpretations of the Old Testament) -- misogynism (especially the notion of woman as the source of evil) -- is the very cornerstone of Abrahamic religious doctrines, which were originally formulated to support the patriarchal revolution: overthrow of the Great Goddess and the female-centered societies of which she was the supreme symbol.

[omega minimo]

58. The Goddess has been riding in the back of the bus

for a loooooooooooooong time.

"...the very cornerstone of Abrahamic religious doctrines, which were originally formulated to support the patriarchal revolution: overthrow of the Great Goddess and the female-centered societies of which she was the supreme symbol."

The cornerstone: the be all and end all, the ultimate tool of mutually assured destruction (and on this thread, detraction).

Those Abrahamic religious doctrines and their patriarchal revolution need the challenge, healing and change of women's energy and the emerging planetary consciousness. Even empty headed mosquitoes have a place.

:hi:

[HEyHEY]

68. All very true, however

I'm wondering about the giving birth thing still

[femrap]

83. Patriachies don't like spending time and $ on medical

research for women....OK? Now $ spent on men's medical and health needs is okeydokey! Get it?

And for statistical purposes, I still need your age....over 25?

[mongo]

99. Yeah - I'm sure that's why funding for breast cancer tops

prostate cancer - even though there are many more cases of prostate cancer per year.

[LostinVA]

128. I can NOT believe you're saying this -- how many women die from

breast cancer? How many men from prostate? Huh? And, if men got a disease that cut off their dicks, I guarantee there would be a cure ASAP.

Are you aware that almost 100% of drug testing is done ONLY are mean (heart medicine, etc.), and thus women have horrible side effects? Know that the majority of funding goes to MALE disease? That many insurance problems pay for Viagra, but NOT BC? How many frigging pharmacists refuse to sell Viagra or condoms? Huh? Give me a break, Mongo. Women have been -- and still -- historically discriminated against and treated like SHIT. All you have to do is watch Fox news or talk to a Fundie. Women suck.

I am ALWAYS shocked by the amount of thinly-veiled hostility and sexism directed at women on DU. This si supposed to be a Progressive site.

[Scout]

132. I ceased to be shocked about it a long time ago.

I am ALWAYS shocked by the amount of thinly-veiled hostility and sexism directed at women on DU.

I was shocked at first, thinking the same thing as you about this supposedly being a progressive site. But I ceased to be shocked or even suprised quite some time ago.

[mongo]

142. Actually, I stand corrected on the number of cases per year

of breast vs. prostate cancer, but men are still more likely to get prostate cancer and die from it (sorry for the Canadian stats)

One in 9 women is expected to develop breast cancer during her lifetime. One in 27 will die of it.

http://www.cancer.ca/ccs/internet/standard/0,3182,3172_14435_371399_langId-en,00.html

One in 7 men will develop prostate cancer during his lifetime, mostly after age 70. One in 26 will die of it.

http://www.cancer.ca/ccs/internet/standard/0,3182,3172_14471__langId-en,00.html

Even though these statistics are nearly equal, funding for breast cancer way outstrips funding for prostate cancer. I don't see blue ribbons for prostate cancer campaigns out there.

There isn't an equivalent to planned parenthood doing reduced cost (or free) vasectomies on men, free prostate screening, etc.

Do we have specialized men's clinics and hospitals?

As far as drugs go, should lactating women be included in the first trial of a new, untested drug? I think there would be an outcry against using women as "guinea pigs" if there was. And yes, women should be included in drug trials before a drug is released to the public.

And yes, women are being discriminated at the pharmacy - which is a deplorable practice by people who would like to shove their religion down all our throats. The same goes for insur companies that won't pay for BC. These are worthy causes to fight for - and to pass legislation ensuring access and coverage for the drugs.

Historically, women have been treated as property. But I given the message of the original post I was responding to:

Patriachies don't like spending time and $ on medical research for women....OK? Now $ spent on men's medical and health needs is okeydokey!

I did feel the need to point out that today there are a few areas where Women's issues outstrip men's - and the breast cancer/prostate cancer rates vs funding is one of them. And that on a whole, TODAY there is much more emphasis placed on women's health over men's health by our society - some of which may be rightfully so, as women's reproductive systems are more complicated.

Fair enough?

[mzmolly]

74. Exactly.

Women were property until not so long ago, and we are still fighting an uphill battle.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HEyHEY]

90. The usual crap

Someone DARES to question something on DU and gets personally attacked.

[Hidden Stillness]

39. "Strung Up in a Tree"

No, when women are tortured and lynched, they are more often dumped in landfills. Happy?

Quick Quiz: They are underpaid, not promoted, are disproportionately living in poverty, seldom have pensions even after a lifetime of work, and they generally cannot get bank loans; they are called by vicious, bigoted slang names; police do not respond when crimes are committed against them; their concerns are almost never addressed by politicians and the legal system; and they are censored by the media....

Which group am I describing?

[LittleClarkie]

43. Liberals

;)

[newswolf56]

41. About two percent of all lynching victims were female, and...

their deaths were often among the most savage. The following passages are from a report entitled "Can Racial Stigma Explain Black Lynchings?":

One of the more horrific lynchings was that of a black woman named Mary Turner in 1917 in Valdosta, Georgia, who was burned, and disemboweled of her eight month fetus (Dray, 2002). The head of the fetus was subsequently crushed by a member of the lynch mob. The modus operandi of Mary Turner’s lynching was apparently not aberrational, as Booker T. Washington (1904) observed that ”The custom of burning human beings has become so common as scarcely to attract interest or attention”.

A reasonable consensus seems to exist that between 1882 - 1968, there were 4,743 reported lynchings, of which 3,444 constituted black victims (Zangrando, 1980). During this time period, the state of Mississippi was particularly violent, with a reported 539 lynchings of which 497 were black Americans.

The full report, by two North Carolina university professors, is available online at:

http://www.ncat.edu/~econdept/wp/price-lynchings.pdf

[lukasahero]

66. Have you seen them burned at the stake?

Raped, stoned, beaten? This is the legacy of women through out all of recorded history. To say women have not faced the same viciousness as blacks is ridiculous in the extreme.

[omega minimo]

75. How many millions of women murdered in The Burning Times?

How many hundred years? Was it six million over 300 years? Many people don't know-- the history was disappeared just as the women were.

If we can help people see that bigotry is bigotry, the disunified groups can organize against ALL oppression. I also hoped this discussion could have a positive affect on discouraging sexism on DU.

[femrap]

81. No, but there have been NINE MILLION

women burned at the stake.....

Are these 'divide and conquer' tactics working for you?

[sufrommich]

97. Out of curiosity

where does that number come from?

[LostinVA]

129. The number is correct

The "Witch craze" was primarily used to subjugate women... and it worked. I have researched this subject professional, and those numbers are quite accurate.

[LostinVA]

126. Yeah, women have been strung up in a tree (lynched), and also

Men make more money than women, both in the same jobs and in comparable jobs. As much as minority men are discriminated against, their women are treated worse, and so are the huge majority of white women.

Black civil rights have a ways to go, but the discrimination against women is much worse, both in the US and, especially, globally. There aren't too many cultures where the husbands are literally treated like chattel, or men lose their jobs because they become pregnant, or men get publicly raped as revenge, or men are legally beaten by their wives just because, or men don't get paid as much as women just because.

The most horrible treatment on Earth is given to women and children, regardless of race.

[omega minimo]

18. Bigotry is bigotry

The comparison of gender bigotry to racial bigotry may help some folks who don't "get" sexism.



Nothing at all like whatever you said........

[LittleClarkie]

19. I will need to see a reply by a black person in this thread to see

if I am right or I am wrong in wondering if the comparison is respectful or not.

[Erika]

22. I have a suggestion when you check whether it's respectful

Don't respond to me and I won't to you.

[HEyHEY]

25. Why - truth hurts?

[omega minimo]

28. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzis there a mosquito in here?

:boring:

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

23. See list: "Listen without defensiveness"

I honor Rosa Parks tonight. You may misunderstand my post if you think I dishonor her.

Perhaps the challenge for some in seeing things from women's point of view is hampering this.

An example: on this board, women are continuously assaulted with bigoted comments that would never be posted if they were racial bigotry rather than gender bigotry. The comparison must be made if people who don't get it are ever going to.

The connection with Rosa Parks that inspired this was the sense of forward motion-- PROGRESS!-- that reached a certain point, a certain moment, a certain individual.... and was not going to go back.

That was the point of comparison with women. We are at that point. We are not going back.

And: if progressives and Democrats want to succeed, these truths and this energy must be addressed.

[Erika]

26. Rosa also said you must know where you came from

before you can move ahead. There are so many spoiled female brats here who simply did not know the fights we fought for contraception, credit in our own names, and reproductive rights. That does not include that we had to fight to earn the vote, equal pay, etc. The states never did give us the equal rights amendment under the constitution. It was originally written for free white men without any thought to the blacks or women. They weren't even an after-thought.

[omega minimo]

36. Shows the power of shortening the national attention span, hmmmm?

"you must know where you came from before you can move ahead."

Yep, that helps with the momentum........:bounce:

[sufrommich]

98. Most women are aware of how

radically our lot has improved since their mothers and grandmothers lifetimes.You calling another woman a "spoiled little brat" because she dares to disagree with you makes me believe that you are just as intolerant as any man who is incapable as seeing women as more than just a stereotype.We come in all flavors and philosophical shades,just like men do.

[mongo]

101. Well judging by the OP

She see's men as little more than stereotypes too. It's just her way.

[omega minimo]

116. Your lack of comprehension does not justify personal attacks

[HEyHEY]

27. I find Little clarkie has been very cordial and not defensive in this

Not bad for a man

[LittleClarkie]

32. Not bad for a woman either, but thanks. :)

I can't even tell you how amusing it was to have someone tell me to go ask my "wife" about women.

I do try to be reasonable. And I do want to hear from someone of color as to whether this comparison strikes them as okay. I don't think alot of folks understood why Jon Stewart got upset at the holocaust comparison either.

[HEyHEY]

40. I just get tired of this crap that divides people

Yeah, women had it bad and many still do. However let's not go blaming men... because many men have stood up for women's rights as well. This stuff is done at the hands of assholes. And that is not a gender biased thing to be.
PLus some of these arguments are so weak. You'd think women were the only ones that had to fight for rights. Shit, trying being Irish up until 80 years ago.

oye!

[Erika]

46. Who was talking about Men?

Neither Rosa nor myself.

[HEyHEY]

47. The OP

[femrap]

86. Oh, excuse me....I forgot I lived in patriarchy....

It's all about YOU.

oy.

[omega minimo]

88. That's what it comes down to, isn't it?

:rofl:

Sure makes reasonable discourse challenging.

Last night PBS said that traditionally, women were told that to disobey the father or the husband was equal to DISOBEYING GOD.

:wow:

[omega minimo]

49. It's not an either/or and there's no need for an "okay"

See list:
The ability to think about and do more than one thing at a time
The ability to see other points of view


If you don't agree or identify with the OP that's okay too. It's not about what somebody said on some other thing that other time.

:hug:

[LittleClarkie]

51. It's cool. I guess I was flashing back to the Durbin affair is all

:hug:

[HEyHEY]

52. Durbin affair ! I knew he had something to do with this!

[omega minimo]

56. Ride on. It's a human thang. Progress. She's an inspiration

:toast:

Rest in peace, Rosa. And thank you.

[JI7]

33. littleclarkie is a female

[HEyHEY]

34. Ah! Oops!

[LittleClarkie]

37. It's cool. It's kinda hard to tell by how somebody types

and God knows the nickname isn't a giveaway.

Just last week I kept calling Mexicoexpat a man. I wonder how she is doing, btw.

[Erika]

38. Not one most would identify with, thank you

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Erika]

44. Huh?

[omega minimo]

53. On the other hand, if they're not oppressors of the highest order

and not involved in the conspiracy to keep women down
they think like us!
:hi:

[omega minimo]

64. "___" & "___" needed for reference to deleted post

[me b zola]

59. In & out groups. Us vs them. Basic social psychology.

So would a Catholic or a fag put to death in a Nazi concentration camp have less of a beef than a Jew in the same camp??

The truth is that some groups have endured much more abuse than other groups, but is not the mechanism the same? Does it not operate in the same or similar manner to produce the same effect??

After the civil war there were African Americans who served in Congress. But the white male power structure pushed back and a concerted effort to suppress AA's from living as full citizens took hold. In the meantime, woman were still never allowed to vote, and mostly could not own property.

People who worked for social justice had a keen awareness of how one person's civil rights were intermingled with another's. During the suffrage movement although there was a great push to include African American rights with the rights of women, it was decided that it would be seen as "politically too much too soon" for both groups to gain fuller citizenship at the same time. Activists then settled on "bringing the women up" who then would be able to extend a hand to their AA brothers & sisters. (Ahem, are you thinking about our GLBT brothers & sisters now??)

African Americans, like Native Americans, have suffered some of the greatest abuses since whites first dropped anchor off of the East Coast. But this does not take away from the centuries of abuses to other groups. Ultimately, I believe that this is where our little experiment has failed. Our founders, as wise as they were, drawing up a Constitution to acknowledge and give a forum for redress of grievances to ANY minority group, could not find it within them to allow women to vote or own property, and could not find it within them to outlaw the slave trade. They didn't have enough faith or courage in their own grand ideals.

But I digress. As a whole, every minority group will feel the sting of injustice more than they will be able to feel empathy for someone else in a similar situation. Real change comes when we recognize that the mechanism of oppression and it's effect on us are the same. We must work together for justice. When we do this we will be strong.

Summery: It is silly to wait for the permission of an African American to acknowledge the oppression that women face to this day. If you do not personally feel as though men or the religious wrong are/have been holding your fate in their hands via your womb--well okay, happy for you. Me, I'm not using my uterus anymore, but I have two grand-daughters and I recognize that it is the same hate & fear that empower those who would take away my grand-daughter's civil liberties that had terrorized & abused African Americans.

None of us are safe until we are all safe. None of us are full citizens until we are all full citizens. Some groups have faced greater horrors than other groups, but we are all in this together.

[LittleClarkie]

60. Very literate response. I think that I have been wrong in this thread

or reacting to an the earlier ruckus when Durbin compared torture at Gitmo to the Holocaust.

But I see what you mean. Thank you for your answer.

Me, I never did use the thing. And it's a bit late for the thing to be put to use now, actually. I'll just have to resign myself to being somebody's spinster auntie.

[omega minimo]

76. LC I appreciate engaging with you on this

esp. as it is a touchy subject. I didn't really realize that a comparison would seem to suggest a jockey for position. We managed to hear each other and not slingshot off on cranky tangents. :hi:

I'd like to bring up another angle. I wasn't involved in DU discussions about the Durbin comment. I remember watching the footage of his statement. What I heard him saying was that if one didn't know who perpetrated Abu Ghraib, one would think it was a totalitarian regime such as ___, ____, _____, or ____.

I thought he was drawing attention to the common theme of dispicable brutality-- not trying to compare one event to the other.

It could have been said more clearly-- once that horse was out of the gate, it was interpreted in different ways....

So, you were right :evilgrin: if that is what he was trying to do, that is what I tried to show-- the common energy of resistance to oppression in whatever form; the human impulse to respond with pride and spirit in the most dehumanizing circumstances.

We see inspiration in that response of the human spirit, in whatever package it comes.

:loveya: :kick:

[omega minimo]

61. You have hit the core of it

"As a whole, every minority group will feel the sting of injustice more than they will be able to feel empathy for someone else in a similar situation."

I do not agree with this. Too broad. Maybe some feel that resentment toward The Other still, yet others will better "feel empathy for someone else in a similar situation" because of their own experience.

"Real change comes when we recognize that the mechanism of oppression and it's effect on us are the same. We must work together for justice. When we do this we will be strong."

This is the key. And it is time for these groups to come together. That's why it's important to recognize that keeping women "in their place" is at the core of ALL the Right Wing wedge issues. It's not about "morality" or "culture wars"-- it's about maintaining the status quo of patriarchy.

:kick:

[Aimah]

77. I don't know why anyone compares the plight of different groups.

[omega minimo]

78. My comments are about continuity of the spirit that resists oppression

Also, we do sometimes draw parallels b/w sexist bigotry and racial bigotry to illustrate that sexism is still accepted and perpetrated, where racism is recognized and avoided.

Amazingly, some folks still don't get it.

[femrap]

84. Would you accept the word of Black Woman?

Remember the words of Shirley Chisholm......'Men are men.'

[Hidden Stillness]

89. The Late, Great Shirley Chisholm's Comment

I was going to post this earlier, but now that someone has referred to the late and great ("Unbought and Unbossed") Representative Shirley Chisholm, we should all remember her famous comment, from a May 21, 1969 speech on the floor of the House of Representatives, "Equal Rights for Women," where she mentioned:

"As a black person, I am no stranger to race prejudice. But the truth is that in the political world I have been far oftener discriminated against because I am a woman than because I am black."

This basic statement was later stated by Rep. Chisholm as a more general point, "more discriminated against because I am a woman than because I am black." I remember hearing it several times during speeches and interviews. Shirley Chishom was a great Representative, a leader, and, you'll recall, ran for President 1972.

www.adl.org/education/chisholm_speech_womans_rights.pdf

[mzmolly]

73. Women were burned at the stake not so terribly long ago.

I don't think we who struggle have to compete frankly. It's like jews saying "how many blacks were burned alive in ovens?" Or, "how many native americans were gassed to death?" :eyes:

Many women are STILL murdered in this country every day because some men believe that they should be able to control/own them.

[femrap]

80. Well, I see you have that 'divide and conquer' tactic

down pat...

Do you realize that the UN does NOT put any value on women's work? You know all those women you see carry water on their heads, planting and reaping crops, raising children, birthing children, cooking, cleaning...is not accounted for in the world economic system? WTF does that make women?

Sounds like slavery to me. So don't tell me that Blacks and Women don't have anything in common or that one has it worse than another....what are you anyway? white and male?

[omega minimo]

87. It's not funny but it is delightful to see these clear voices come forth

:hi:

[Scout]

133. I think it was Yoko Ono who said

Woman is the nigger of the world.

No matter what race you are, you are probably better off being a man.

[Solon]

85. And yet in the beginning they supported each other, and recognized...

each other's struggles as comparable at least. Look at Fredrick Douglass, not only an abolitionist, but he was the reason why Women's sufferage was put in the Seneca Falls Proclaimation of Sentiments. Vice versa as well, the leaders of the Women's Rights movement of that time were also leaders in the abolitionist movement, Fredrick Douglass himself worked for women's rights up till his dying day, literally, when he died right after attending a Women's Rights convention in 1895.

[smirkymonkey]

104. What the hell do you know about women's struggles - in every

culture, in every nation and even within "black" culture - women have been abused and powerless for centuries. Give me a break! :eyes:

[newswolf56]

57. I too honor Rosa Parks. Here is a variant of something I posted earlier:

The most poignant verse of "We Shall Overcome" invokes the Rosa Parks sort of courage:

We are not afraid
We are not afraid
We are not afraid today
Deep in my heart
I know that I do believe
We are not afraid today.

Lest we forget, it is one thing to sing such words safely ensconced in a Manhattan rally organized by the Fifth Avenue Peace Parade Committee. It is quite another to sing them on hostile ground like Birmingham -- surrounded by jeering Klansmen, braced against the death-hatred in the eyes of the Ku Klux Kops, knowing sure as sunrise they will soon attack with clubs, dogs and firehoses.

Rosa Parks deserves the highest honors we can give. We will be many times blest if this nation ever sees her like again.

[omega minimo]

62. "Rosa Parks deserves the highest honors we can give."

"Rosa Parks deserves the highest honors we can give. We will be many times blest if this nation ever sees her like again."

Her humble heroism is the message ingrained on the children of the 60's-- the kids b/w the Boom and X.

:patriot:

[donsu]

65. kicking

nt

[MountainLaurel]

71. Excellent post

:applause:

[newswolf56]

72. Recommended. Come on, folks: let's vote this one up.

[Kurovski]

92. Thanks for the offer, but I'll sit this one out.

However, broad assumptions of possessed traits based exclusively on sex--in an OP decrying sexism--makes for an interesting read.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

91. Um, those traits are not restricted to women. What a sexist remark.

None of those things you listed are unique to women. If a man were to say they were unique to men, women would be rightfully angry.

[omega minimo]

94. Everything in the OP is affirmative

Those who find it sexist need to go back to the list:

"The ability to listen without defensiveness

The ability to see other points of view"

and reread the comments.

The cat is out of the bag, the genie is out of the bottle, Pandora's box is wide open.... Comes a time that there is no going back to the back of the bus.

These points are crucial for any future success of progressives (or Democrats)

Whether we challenge bigoted treatment of us because we are women; or whether we accommodate to the demands of survival in male dominant environments, we make those choices all the time.

Challenging and healing sexist bigotry at this crucial political moment is not an afterthought, it is an imperative. As the opposition to the current administration continues to reinvent itself, women's issues and participation are at the heart of any success that progressives hope to have.

The Right Wing wedge issues are all based on one thing. The gay marriage issue, the abortion issue, women's rights issues all hinge on CONTROL-- on maintaining the male dominant hierarchy at all levels of this patriarchal system.

This system is what must be challenged, healed and changed.

(Those who insist the OP slams men have chosen to miss the point. The vested interests of men in patriarchal systems make it more challenging for them to see out of it. "The ability to see other points of view" will help).

This system is the genesis of war, bloodshed, exploitation and the triune desert sky-god religions trying to annihilate each other.

If everyone already "gets it" DU will never again condone, support and "vote up" an OP that says: "So is it OK if I cut off just little tiny slice of your clitoris?"

We feel we have a rightful place in the dialog, in the leadership and in the solution-building. Misogynistic behavior drives us away.

[mongo]

105. And misandrist behavior drives men away from women's rights

and I notice that you chose not to include the sexist comments from the OP when you restated your position.

[Kurovski]

109. IMO the OP is only partly about women's rights, most is about

psychological arm-wrestling. You are correct to point out in another post that language means what it means.

Nothing will drive me away from supporting rights for all of us wherever I can, and howsoever I choose. But there is always that danger that a movement's intention's can be misunderstood.

Many illuminating points on women's rights, and the treatment of women throughout history have been made here in responses to the thread.

I think men may disagree with, or see the unintentional hypocrisy of the OP, but few wish to see women on the back of the bus. It is no longer the '60's and the image of the feminist wishing to shatter and control every thought of menfolk and all who disagree with him/her exists chiefly in the mind of a small percentage of people.

Pay-back is no longer a large psychological component of the movement, if indeed it ever really was. That too--like so much else having to do with rights--was in great part a media-driven phenomenon. As the actual goals and objectives of the movement entered the consciousness of Americans, the media also eventually drove the upward trajectory of the movement.

All healthy-minded men want the women in their lives treated fairly and to be protected by the law. And so that will also mean "all women". And yes, there is still work to be done. We also want them to have choice. That includes choice in how to conduct their sex lives, and how they choose to express their sexuality.

It remains a movement relatively free of the PR baggage the Right-wing saddled it with. It is a positive force. The same can be said for every movement from the sixties. In a very real way, decency and consciousness has prevailed. Our personal and collective views of The disabled, the elderly, Native-Americans, African-Americans, women, gays and lesbians, and yes, even men, has changed enormously in 30 years. (Forgive me any omissions) :-)

Some movements have farther to go than others. African-Americans in this country have been dealt an enormous blow by this administration.
They've experienced the largest set-back of all the groups used and abused for political purposes by the current republican party. Oh, and then there's that lucky Dr. Codoleezza Rice who won big in a game of "Red Rover".

As a gay man, I see the sweepingly positive differences in my own life in just 25 years. And I know there is a long way to go. I guess that's why it's called a movement.

Over a twenty-five year period, I saw how gays and lesbians actually won over the hearts and minds of the people whose views they helped to change. So, mongo (if you're still with me) I guess I'm fully agreeing with your assessment after all.

Hypocrisy and inconsistency does not help any movement (unless you intend to bring a nation to war) and honey tastes better than vinegar.

[omega minimo]

115. The spirit of OP is missed by black&white thinkers' accusing hypocrisy

The OP is affirmative and not sexist, inconsistent or hypocritical ("unintended" or otherwise). These attacks are proof that the unique skills of "listening without defensiveness" (and commenting without arrogance), "the ability to see other points of view and the gift of empathy" are clearly needed-- ESPECIALLY by those men who take any such comments PERSONALLY (defensively).

The spirit of the OP is in your eloquent spitwad. It is unfortunate that you have picked sides with attackers and not related to:

"Challenging and healing sexist bigotry at this crucial political moment is not an afterthought, it is an imperative. As the opposition to the current administration continues to reinvent itself, women's issues and participation are at the heart of any success that progressives hope to have.

"The Right Wing wedge issues are all based on one thing. The gay marriage issue, the abortion issue, women's rights issues all hinge on CONTROL-- on maintaining the male dominant hierarchy at all levels of this patriarchal system."

"This system is what must be challenged, healed and changed. This system is the genesis of war, bloodshed, exploitation and the triune desert sky-god religions trying to annihilate each other."

There was nothing in the OP about payback of any kind. This is a call for inclusion and for availing ourselves of all the skills and all the energy that will be needed to progress "the movement." You identified as a gay man with some awareness of commonality with other oppressed groups. The choice to post a back-handed insult seems more like "vinegar" than "honey."

You wrote: "the image of the feminist wishing to shatter and control every thought of menfolk and all who disagree with him/her exists chiefly in the mind of a small percentage of people. "

The attackers on this thread are in that small-minded "small percentage of people" who project THEIR bogeyfeminist assumptions on posts such as mine, "even on DU."

There was some humor and no hatred in that list of suggestions-- the inability to comprehend the point that the list makes, is exactly what the list is intended to address.

If it makes some individuals belligerent and frustrated and more focused on their poor egos then social awareness, the point is proven-- THEY have reinforced the cliche, not I!

Let the healing begin! :toast:

[mongo]

136. When you gain the unique skills of "listening without defensiveness"

Let the rest of us know OK - as you have been called on this by many people on many occasions.

[mongo]

134. Please don't misunderstand

I don't want women on the back of the bus. I am for equal pay for equal work, and I support women's rights.

My problem is with the OP and her modus operandi which is to make veiled inflammatory comments and then totally deny she said them.

[LostinVA]

130. This is not misandrist behaviour -- you need to know the definition

This is not "hatred of men." Although I have seen some posts bordering on misogyny on this thread -- which ALWAYS happened when women's rights are discussed on good-old-Progressive DU.

[Zhade]

108. "Those who insist the OP slams men have chosen to miss the point."

You have no clue what anyone has "chosen", as you can't read minds.

You specifically listed those traits as unique to women. That is a lie. Those traits are not exclusive to EITHER gender.

You are doing the very thing you decry in the OP - being sexist.

[omega minimo]

120. I can see how this was misinterpreted

Many women here are already activists, or innate activists via experience of continuous demeaning treatment as second class citizens in a man's world.

Whether we challenge bigoted treatment of us because we are women; or whether we accommodate to the demands of survival in male dominant environments, we make those choices all the time.

As the opposition to the current administration continues to reinvent itself, women's issues and participation are at the heart of any success that progressives hope to have.

This system is the genesis of war, bloodshed, exploitation and the triune desert sky-god religions trying to annihilate each other.
Women are in a unique position to challenge, heal and change this system. We have unique skills to offer:

The ability to listen without defensiveness
The ability to think about and do more than one thing at a time
The ability to see other points of view
The gift of empathy
The power of communication
The power of cooperation
The awareness that one person can make a difference
Did I forget anything?

Women are in a unique position. Women have unique skills to offer.

At no point does the OP say

"those traits as unique to women" or "exclusive to EITHER gender."

The OP is not:

"doing the very thing you decry in the OP - being sexist."

See?

Wow, did people get all bent because of the word "unique"? :shrug:

If I had said "skills set"-- would that have helped? :rofl:

[NorthernSpy]

123. "Wow, did people get all bent because of the word 'unique'? "

Wow, did people get all bent because of the word "unique"? :shrug:

If I had said "skills set"-- would that have helped? :rofl:

Gee, I guess they just stupidly assumed that you meant exactly what you said.

Unique doesn't mean "excellent" or "wonderful". If you say that women "have unique skills to offer", than you are literally claiming that those skills that you've listed are not to be found except among women.

[omega minimo]

125. Black and white thinking is the killer

"If you say that women "have unique skills to offer", than you are literally claiming that those skills that you've listed are not to be found except among women."

Nonsense.

Women have unique skills to offer. That does not mean that those skills are divvied up and THERE'S NONE LEFT OVER FOR ANYONE ELSE! How ridiculous. The point of the OP was that we ALL will benefit from these qualities that are currently IN SHORT SUPPLY. And those who offer such skills could provide examples for those who are in need.

This over-simplification and hard-headed approach is merely a gimmick to "choose to miss the point." (That again!)

And ALL of this is why first on the list is:

LISTEN
WITHOUT
DEFENSIVENESS.

:hi:


"singular, unusual, rare" does not mean "mutually exclusive"

[zann725]

96. Right on! Women as STILL discriminated against is often diminished

and ignored and patronized.

For one, I'm always annoyed when in speaking of EEOC, and discrimination and "quotas"...Blacks are ususally the only ones mentioned as discriminated against. Since at least early '80's, women have been shamed into discussing or admitting to being Feminist (holding Women's rights as a priority)...or even admitting that discrimination STILL existed against them.

With new assaults on Women's Reproductive rights, and the appointment of a Vetinerarian??? to the head of Women's Medical Issues by Shrub...we see an outright taunting of Women's "place" in Society.

Women must collectively keep moving to the front of the bus. No one will "give them" that seat. And they certainly aren't there yet.

[mongo]

100. a unique position?

Women are in a unique position to challenge, heal and change this system. We have unique skills to offer:

The ability to listen without defensiveness
The ability to think about and do more than one thing at a time
The ability to see other points of view
The gift of empathy
The power of communication
The power of cooperation
The awareness that one person can make a difference

Misandrist much?

[LostinVA]

131. Again, not misandrist

Say sexist, and I'll agree with you partly. Misandrist? Not at all. I see no hate in the OP's post.

[mongo]

137. Ok - sexist

Although I often see the terms misogynist and sexist interchanged without much distinction.

But I do see your point.

[FizzFuzz]

106. the ability to understand Right Behavior as it applies to various people

and situations, as opposed to the male tendency to interpret/apply ethics at an abstract level. (CArol Gilligan)

The March For Women's Lives was the largest protest march ever. One mill. people.

You are totally right, its time for a new paradigm. No more blade, its time for the Chalice.

[smirkymonkey]

114. Hi FizzFuzz - glad to see you!

What disturbs me most about these threads is that we still have men trying to define OUR experience for us and telling us what is and isn't real according to their own particular frame of reference.

I cannot tell a black person that "racism isn't that bad in this country" or "If you are complaining about racism, you are wrong, because some white people aren't racist." A white person CANNOT define a black person's experience of racism just as a man cannot define a woman's experience of sexism in the world.

Jesus H. Christ! Why is this so f*ing hard for some people to understand. :grr:

[omega minimo]

119. Way to boil it down, smirkymonkey

"What disturbs me most about these threads is that we still have men trying to define OUR experience for us and telling us what is and isn't real according to their own particular frame of reference."

This is the enormous blind spot. This is what DU has shown me is so divisive and pervasive-- the pathological need to insist that their POV is the only one and we must be wrong and if we don't back down, then they project that we are trying to inflict OUR POV on THEM.

Um, no-- we simply insist on the right to HAVE a point of view. We don't need permission. We don't need to justify it. We ain't goin back to the back of the bus.

Someone on the thread objected to me posting "those who choose to miss the point" and said I wasn't a mind-reader (how the hell would HE know? :rofl:) but it reminded me: I used to think it was a choice, a lack of will to understand. But for some (many?) it really is the INABILITY to understand (or even try to.........)

Hence the list. It was intended to address this blindness, obtuseness, entrapment inside a single small ego without a sense of connection, of empathy. The list was a bit tongue in cheek ("Did I miss anything?") Mebbe I should have thrown in the :evilgrin:

Women are in a unique position to challenge, heal and change this system. We have unique skills to offer:
The ability to listen without defensiveness
The ability to think about and do more than one thing at a time
The ability to see other points of view
The gift of empathy
The power of communication
The power of cooperation
The awareness that one person can make a difference
Did I forget anything?

You wrote:

"I cannot tell a black person that "racism isn't that bad in this country" or "If you are complaining about racism, you are wrong, because some white people aren't racist." A white person CANNOT define a black person's experience of racism just as a man cannot define a woman's experience of sexism in the world."

You have perfectly stated it. I think people (including some belligerent men) KNOW that they "cannot tell a black person that "racism isn't that bad in this country" or "If you are complaining about racism, you are wrong, because some white people aren't racist."

DUers know better than to make racially bigoted posts here EVEN IF THEY DO NOT AGREE WITH THE REASONS, THEY KNOW IT IS UNACCEPTABLE AND WILL BE REMOVED. We TRY to get folks to understand that the same holds for sexist bigotry.

It is due to recent unbelievable misogynistic posts on DU that I thought I would give it one more go. I do this out of concern for the effects on DU and on Dems, when women and men who reject sexist bigotry find they cannot support organizations that condone it.

Hope I see you around! :hi:

[newswolf56]

110. Kick

So I can again access it via "My Posts."

[CornField]

113. Just to add something that I've recently realized

In every great humanitarian movement, a woman has played an instrumental role. Rosa Parks... Margaret Sanger... Eleanor Roosevelt... Harriet Tubman... Marian Wright Edelman... Emma Goldman... Sojourner Truth... Jeanette Rankin... CJ Walker... Dr. Mary Walker... and so, so many others.

If there ever comes a time when women can set aside their other hats and unite under only the premise that we are women... well, I only hope it happens in my lifetime.

[omega minimo]

117. Great vision of great visionaries

We are humanitarians by nature.

It will happen :toast:

[omega minimo]

118. First woman: Rosa Parks will lie in state in the Capitol Rotunda

The "first woman to receive this tribute"

:patriot: :loveya:

[mongo]

138. Which she certainly deserves

:toast:

[NorthernSpy]

122. Stop. Feminism has no right to co-opt the memory of Rosa Parks.

Rosa Parks' famous action had nothing to do with feminism, either the ideology or the organized movement. White women were no more her on her side than was any other sector of white Southern society. The feminist notion of "sisterhood" and the allegedly superior ethical nature of women (which you seem to be invoking) weren't much in evidence in the local reaction to Parks' act of courage.

Furthermore, after the way that the victims of the recent New Orleans flood -- Rosa Parks' own people -- were slandered in feminist commentary (with no rumor of mass rape and throat-slitting ever considered too absurd to be believed, of course) it's especially grating to read chirpy pronouncements like "Women ain't goin to the back of the bus". Please. Experience has taught me that the women most likely to nod in agreement with declarations like this:

The Right Wing wedge issues are all based on one thing. The gay marriage issue, the abortion issue, women's rights issues all hinge on CONTROL-- on maintaining the male dominant hierarchy at all levels of this patriarchal system.

and this

This system is what must be challenged, healed and changed. This system is the genesis of war, bloodshed, exploitation and the triune desert sky-god religions trying to annihilate each other.

often have the least idea of what the back of the bus is really like.

[omega minimo]

124. "Rosa Parks' famous action" was human spirit resisting oppression

That spirit inspires those that come after. That same spirit is expressed, oppressed and resurrected in the next simple and powerful act of human dignity.

As far as I know, feminists and feminism aren't co-opting nothing. ("Chirpy" OUCH!) I'm not aware of "the way that the victims of the recent New Orleans flood -- Rosa Parks' own people -- were slandered in feminist commentary" -- I was busy being outraged at the lack of adequate response of the American people (on top of the inadequate response of the American White House) to the racist genocide beamed into their living rooms.

"Experience has taught me that the women most likely to nod in agreement with declarations like this:

"The Right Wing wedge issues are all based on one thing. The gay marriage issue, the abortion issue, women's rights issues all hinge on CONTROL-- on maintaining the male dominant hierarchy at all levels of this patriarchal system."

If you don't mind sharing where "declarations like this" are being discussed, I'd like to check it out. I don't see much of ANY discussion of the central root of wedge issues that are used to divide and conquer the left.

[sufrommich]

127. Right on.

Great post.

[Swamp Rat]

135. OBEY

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[smirkymonkey]

140. The fact that they can't get laid is probably the very thing that

makes them act the way they do.

[Ripley]

141. Yeah, repressed desires do that.

One would hope they'd figure it out by now. :eyes:

[Fridays Child]

143. You forgot something but it's not what we have. It's what we don't have.

Testosterone.

I would like to see testosterone levels measured and taxed, as a matter of law.

Edit: Oh, c'mon. Lighten up. :P

[ncrainbowgrrl]

145. Locking.

Unfortunately, this thread seems to have become little more than an excuse to attack each other.

Thank you for understanding.