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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 11:27 AM
Original message
Tonight: "Emergency Katrina Recovery National Sales Tax Act"
It won't be a large sale tax, just 1%, and it won't be forever, until New Orleans recovers...
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. How about an emergency millionaire tax?
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. No
Millionaires have enough money and can handle their own emergencies.

That is what you were talking about, right? I mean, this is the Bush administration, right? They might actually propose a special tax to help out all those millionaires struggling with various personal emergencies...
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. LMFAO!
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. That's going to go over poorly everywhere, especially Oregon and...
...the other states that do not have a sales tax.

PB
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. Even worse in states that do!
I live in Tennessee. Since we have no income tax, our sales tax is the highest in the nation.

If they implement a 1 percent national sales tax, Tennessee consumers will be paying, get this, more than 10 percent in sales tax!!!!

There goes "consumer confidence!"
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trogdor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. We pay 9.75% in Oneida County, New York.
I bet that's higher than yours. In New York, part of that is state tax, the rest is county/town/city tax.
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bee Donating Member (894 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. youre so right. that shit will not fly here in NH.
we have no sales tax.. thats our thing. "live free or die" is the state motto. no no ... that will not go over well here at all.
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windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. Visited NH
In Jan of 2004..loved your state motto...have magnets declaring "live free or die" stuck all over my fridge here in Wash. state.....

So is this how he plans to slip it to us on a national tax? I would remind him, we already pay an illegal (according to the 16th amendment)nationwide tax....Could that be the reason they allowed this to happen to NOLA? What is it GI Jane said, after proving she had the guts to fight her superior? "You can suck my dick" (Bush)!!!
windbreeze
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Extend a Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. omg! I bet you're right!
That's the kind of sneaky trick these scum would pull.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
4. Over my bleeding corpse.
That prick wants the poor to pay for the poor? But the rich are off the hook?

What a BASTARD.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Oh, this is YOUR idea.
Well, if George tries it, it means he's open to a tax increase. I have a few to suggest that won't injure an inflation-crippled economy.
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. Bush's ONLY criteria for "tax overhaul"...
His "tax panel" can ONLY come up with ideas that are "revenue-neutral."

That means that it's supposed to generate the exact amount of revenue for the government that the current Income Tax does...nto MORE, nor LESS.

SO...

If you do some Google research on the National Sales Tax / Fair Tax and look at the ACTUAL COST of REPLACING THE INCOME TAX, it's TERRIFYING.

The N.S.T. would end up being between 50 and 60 cents on the dollar. Go ahead, don't believe me, folks...do some research. I gave you some starting points in my pother post.

I know this is a "what if" thread, BUT...if Bush got his foot in the door with a National Sales Tax, he could raise or lower it in a heartbeat.

Goodbye, Middle Class.

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China_cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
6. Oh right.
We had a 1% increase in our sales tax 25 years ago. It was supposed to be for 'only a year'.

It's a backdoor push for another tax that will adversely effect the poor and middle classes and once it's there, it'll only get bigger, not go away.

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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
7. The problem is that however the money is raised,
it will be spent with no-bid contract with no oversight.

In other words, massive corruption which makes the rich richer and provides a fraction of the relief it should.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
8. No he'll just say, "send cayshhh" like he always does
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. As Nancy Reagan would say,
"Just say NO!"

Sales taxes are unfair to the poor. Let The Bush Crime Family and their cronies take the hit on this one.

As for repealing the "Death" Tax, stick it where the sun never shines, Dubya.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
11. meanwhile, there goes the estate tax
How much more proof do we need that our government serves the rich???

WHATS IT GOING TO TAKE TO WAKE UP PEOPLE?!?!?!!?!?
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. There you go again with your "class warfare" and other socialist ideas...
Edited on Thu Sep-15-05 12:41 PM by FormerRushFan
:sarcasm:

I honestly don't know what it will take - people are SO brainwashed...

edit: to add the sarcasm for those who think the subject may be serious.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. you said the S word!!!!!
:P }(
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. Well, a National Sales Tax IS a Bush "agenda item"...
From Bruce Bartlett:

"You know, I'm not exactly sure how big the national sales tax is going to have to be, but it's the kind of interesting idea that we ought to explore seriously," Bush said, according to a Reuters report.

August 09, 2004, 8:47 a.m.

A National Sales Tax No Vote: The rates would be vastly higher than what you might suspect.

House Speaker Dennis Hastert created a flurry of excitement in Republican circles the other day when it was reported that he is proposing the abolition of the Internal Revenue Service in his new book. This would be accomplished by eliminating all existing federal taxes and replacing them with a national retail sales tax. There is no indication of what tax rate Speaker Hastert thinks would be necessary to replace all federal revenue. A current proposal by Rep. John Linder (R., Ga.) says that a 23 percent rate would be adequate. But such a low rate can only be sustained by making completely absurd assumptions about what would be taxed. Every serious economist who has ever looked at this question has concluded that a vastly higher rate would in fact be needed.

An unstated assumption is that the 23 percent rate proposed by Linder is comparable to existing state and local sales taxes, where the tax comes on top of the purchase price. Thus, a 5 percent sales tax on a $1 purchase comes to $1.05. But that’s not the way the Linder plan works. He deceptively calculates the rate as if the tax is part of the purchase price. He calls this the tax-inclusive rate. Calculating the rate the normal way people are accustomed to with state and local sales taxes would require a 30 percent tax rate, not 23 percent. When Congress’s Joint Committee on Taxation scored the Linder proposal four years ago it estimated that it would actually require a tax-inclusive rate of 36 percent, not 23 percent, to equal current federal revenues. Calculating the rate in a normal, tax-exclusive manner would mean a 57 percent rate.

Economist Bill Gale of the Brookings Institution notes that supporters of the sales tax assume that there will be no tax evasion under their proposal and that the size of government will not grow, even though they would send a large annual check to every American in order to offset the regressivity of the tax. Making realistic assumptions, Gale estimates that the tax-inclusive rate, comparable to Linder’s proposed 23 percent rate, would actually have to be about 50 percent. A rate comparable to existing sales taxes would be close to 100 percent. And let us not forget that state and local sales taxes would come on top of the federal sales tax, pushing the total rate even higher. Obviously, the federal government is not going to impose tax rates this high, nor would anyone pay them if it did. There would be a massive tax revolt.

From Nancy Pelosi:

http://democraticleader.house.gov/press/releases.cfm?pressReleaseID=701

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 23, 2004

Pelosi: ‘National Sales Tax Would be Burden for Middle Class Americans, But Boon for the Wealthy’

Washington, D.C. -- House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi held a news conference in the Capitol this afternoon with Congressmen Charles Rangel of New York, and John Spratt and James Clyburn, both of South Carolina, to denounce a Republican plan for a national sales tax. Below are Pelosi’s remarks and a fact sheet about the proposal:

“Today, we are here to highlight one of the many clear contrasts between Democrats and Republicans: Republicans want to undermine our American values of prosperity and fairness with a new national sales tax of at least 30 percent and as high as 50 percent or more on all goods, including homes and cars.

“A national sales tax would be a burden for middle class Americans, but a boon for the wealthy. Families with children would lose their current tax deductions, and seniors would essentially be taxed twice.

“This proposal is ludicrous and should be dismissed outright. Yet Speaker Hastert wrote about the national sales tax and the flat tax in his new book, saying ‘both of these ideas are worthy of consideration.’ And Majority Leader Tom DeLay is co-sponsoring the bill, and has said: ‘It is high time the debate about the flat tax and a national consumption tax moved out of Washington think tanks and into American living rooms. That's why I have signedon to Congressman John Linder's proposal to scrap the current tax code altogether and replace it with a national sales tax.’

“The Republican plan would make it harder for middleclass families to make ends meet. A national sales tax would undermine the American value of prosperity. For example, cars that cost $20,000 would cost an additional $6,000 under this proposal. Just wait until the car dealers hear about this proposal. Prescription drugs that cost $100 would now cost $130. New homes, insurance premiums, brokerage fees, and gasoline would all be heavily taxed to replace revenue brought in by the current tax system.

“It would wipe out our system of progressive taxation. A national sales tax would undermine the American value of fairness.

“The American people should be aware that the Republicans’ primary tax agenda is a new national sales tax.”

The Republican Plan to Raise Taxes on the Middle Class

All over the country, middle class Americans are being squeezed byRepublican policies that have lost 1.7 million private sector jobs; allowed the price of health care, education, and gas to skyrocket; and created record deficits. Now Republicans are proposing a new national sales tax that would increase taxes for the typical middle class by about 50 percent. Democrats know that approach is wrong. Instead of raising taxes on the middle class, Democrats have pledged to promote prosperity and fairness by enacting middle class tax relief, creating new jobs, and eliminating tax loopholes so all Americans pay their fair share.

GOP SALES TAX HIKES A FAMILY’S TAX BURDEN BY 50 PERCENT

The new GOP national sales tax would replace all personal and corporate income taxes, Social Security, Medicare, and payroll taxes, and gift and estate taxes with a new national sales tax on goods like groceries, clothing, new home sales and apartment rents, and health care services. This new GOP tax would be applied on top of existing state sales taxes. This proposal would increase taxes by about $3,200 a year for 80 percent of taxpayers, and potentially more for some families.

MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES SQUEEZED AGAIN

Families with children. Families with children are hit the hardest, as this proposal would eliminate all the current law tax benefits for these families, including the child tax credit. A middle class family with four children with a combined income of $65,000 would face an increase of more than $5,000 in their tax liability.

New homeowners. The Republican tax hike proposal would eliminate the tax deduction that families get on their home mortgages and apply this new sales percent tax to the cost of a home. If a family buys a new house listed for $150,000, the new tax brings the actual purchase price to $195,000.

Jump in property taxes. The Republican sales tax hike would require states to send an additional $300 billion to the federal government in sales taxes – a tax increase that states would immediately pass on to residents. Arkansas, Delaware, Kentucky, Hawaii, and New Jersey could all see property tax increases higher than 400 percent. The lowest state property tax hike possible – in New Hampshire – would still be more than 70 percent.

Gas and electricity. The average family would pay an additional 60 cents a gallon for gasoline – a new tax that will hit families in rural areas particularly hard. Families with large home heating or cooling bills also will be harmed.

SENIORS FACE NEW TAXES

Beneficiaries pay twice for Social Security and pension benefits. Most Social Security benefits and a portion of pension payments are exempt from income tax. But this proposal requires seniors to pay the new sales tax – meaning that seniors are now being taxed twice for their Social Security, once when they pay the payroll taxes and again when they pay the sales taxes.

Threaten Solvency of the Medicare Trust Fund. Medicare would be required to pay the new sales tax as well, forcing the program into insolvency in five years. If this proposal were enacted, Medicare would run out of funds in 2009.

Undermines pension coverage. The new GOP sales tax hike would reduce the incentives employers currently get for offering their employees a pension plan. The American Academy of Actuaries has concluded that “pension plans would quickly diminish in number and size and gradually disappear” if a consumption tax, such as the national sales tax were enacted as a substitute to the current income tax.

From The National Retail Federation:

http://www.nrf.com/content/default.asp?folder=press/release2005&file=NRST-comments.htm&bhfv=2&bhqs=1

Retailers File Comments Urging Rejection of Consumption Tax

WASHINGTON, D.C., June 13, 2005 - The National Retail Federation today announced that it has filed comments with the President's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform urging the panel to reject economically risky proposals to replace the nation's income tax system with a consumption tax or to add a new consumption tax on top of existing taxes.

"The United States should not experiment with a brand new tax system that will put our economic future at risk," NRF said. "It is better to engage in substantial reforms of the income tax that are designed to eliminate some of the major complications in the current Internal Revenue Code and stimulate economic growth without causing major economic dislocation."

NRF's remarks came in response to proposals for tax reform that were presented to the Advisory Panel during a series of hearings this spring. The panel asked for public comments on the proposals last month.

NRF on Friday submitted a detailed statement outlining the dangers of various consumption tax proposals. The statement addressed the National Retail Sales Tax proposed by Representative John Linder, R-Va., plans for a Value Added Tax similar to those used in Europe, and other consumption tax proposals.

The NRF statement cited a study commissioned by NRF in 2000 that found that a national sales tax would bring a three-year decline in the economy, a four-year decline in employment and an eight-year decline in consumer spending. The study showed that similar results could be expected if other types of consumption taxes were enacted to replace the current system.

NRF argued that consumption taxes are inherently regressive because low-income families spend virtually their entire incomes while wealthier families have larger percentages of unspent income that would go untaxed.

NRF particularly urged the Advisory Panel to reject proposals to maintain the current tax system while adding a VAT or other new tax that would be used to pay for programs such as Social Security or health care. Doing so would amount to a tax increase rather than tax reform and would provide lawmakers with "a money machine" to finance increases in government spending, NRF said.

From Roth & Co:

http://www.rothcpa.com/archives/cat_tax_reform.php

June 02, 2005
I DON'T THINK HE LIKES THE 'FAIR' TAX

The "Fair Tax," a proposal for a national retail sales tax, has gotten some attention in the tax reform debate. Joseph Thorndike, a columnist for Tax Analysts, isn't quite sold on it:

First, though, we have to sort through an embarrassment of riches: How can we identify the worst quality of a tax that has so many? As numerous critics have pointed out, the Fair Tax would raise too little revenue and prompt too much evasion. Its popularity depends on unreasonable assumptions and misleading descriptions. It would never work as advertised -- a fact that many of its supporters either choose to ignore or secretly celebrate.

But other than that, maybe he likes it.

WHAT IS THE REAL RATE?

Mr. Thorndike points out that the 23% rate touted by Fair Tax supporters is misleading, because it is a "tax inclusive" rate. The 6% tax rate we Polk Countians are accustomed to is "tax exclusive" - it isn't included in the sales tax rate.

Example:

Wally buys a new computer for $1,000, and he pays $60 in sales tax. His "tax exclusive" rate is 6%. His "tax inclusive rate" is 5.66% (60/1060 = 5.66%).

If you compute the "Fair Tax" the way we are used to talking about sales tax rates - tax exclusive - it will apply at a 30% rate. That's a real difference.

Perhaps we are biased, being income tax consultants, but the Fair Tax seems to have some huge practical problems. Two come immediately to mind.

WHEN RATES GET TOO HIGH, PEOPLE CHEAT

Sales taxes are only likely to work if rates are low enough to not interfere with commerce. When combined with state and local taxes, the Fair Tax would burden every trip to Git 'n Go with a 36% or higher surcharge. This is high enough to push many transactions into the E-bay economy.

HIGH SALES TAX RATES THREATEN BUSINESSES THAT COLLECT SALES TAXES

Taxpayers going through their first sales tax audit are astounded at how big the assessments can be. They also know that they aren't as simple as many folks believe. While income taxes are only a problem to the extent your business is profitable, sales taxes apply even when you are losing money, and they apply based on gross receipts - a much larger base than taxable income.

Because sales taxes are computed on a big base, a small error in determining what transactions are subject to tax can lead to a stiff assessment over three years, even at a "low" 6% rate. At a 36% rate, even little errors would be ruinous.

FAIR TAX PROSPECTS?

Mr. Thorndike doesn't think the Fair Tax will survive the tax reform process:

And the winner of this year's prize for Worst Idea in a Serious Public Policy Debate: the Fair Tax. In all likelihood, this plan for a national retail sales tax has already exhausted its 15 minutes of fame. Sometime later this summer, President Bush's commission on federal tax reform will probably put it out of its misery.
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gasperc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. It'll be permanitized
more wealth shifting, extracting more wealth from the middle class

This was Hastert's wet dream, and maybe Delay's too
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Yes, Hastert AND DeLay were / ARE big on this...
It's funny.

John Linder creates this ill-conceived idea for a "National Sales Tax."

Bush decides that he needs to re-write the tax code to make it "simpler and more fair."

"National Sales Tax" comes under scrutiny (see my L-O-N-G post above).

ALL OF A SUDDEN, Linder and everyone else stop calling "The National Sales Tax" by its name, referring to it EXCLUSIVELY as "The Fair Tax."

Anyone else smell a RAT?

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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
18. unbelieveable. this national emergency is being spun into a mechanism
Edited on Thu Sep-15-05 01:34 PM by truthisfreedom
for accelerating every single completely worthless idea bushco ever had, saddling this country forever. our freedom is finished.

although i assume you're speculating with your post.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Yes - pure speculation on my part - but I wouldn't put it past them n/t
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
21. Fuckity fuck
If they do this, it will NEVER go away. We'll have a federal sales tax forever from now on.

It's like those toll booths that are supposed to go away when the road or bridge is paid for. Have you ever seen a toll booth put out of service? Me either.
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
25. Nah...look for tonight's message to be about his deep concern for the poor
Gotta pump up those ratings, you know. So we will hear more "compassionate conservatism" nonsense. I just hope people don't fall for it.
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snippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
26. The Tax Cut Monkeys would gnaw his nuts off.
Bush not only will never propose any tax increase, he might propose additional tax cuts because of Katrina.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. If he proposes a tax, his propagandist staff will have him call it
by some Orwellian term, like Government Benefit Collection Opportunity (GBCO) or the Citizens 'Freedom' Investment Plan (CFIP)
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-05 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
27. Since Bush is so into Privatization
Why don't his oil business buddies pay to rebuild New Orleans? Why should the rest of pay for their mistakes?

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