Do you think that the war will end when the US leaves Iraq?

[justinsb]

There was a 'terrorism expert' on the CBC last night, I'm afraid I didn't get his credentials but what he was saying seemed realistic; That because of US actions in the middle east since 9/11 a whole new generation has been 'radicalized' , there are orphans and widows/widowers and others who've been hurt economically who will want revenge on the US for decades to come. The answer to this is certainly not more war (that's like trying to get rid of toadstools by breaking them into little pieces, scattering them across the yard and dumping fertilizer on them). But, I fail to see how the US extricates itself from the broader "War on Terror' for decades to come.

[shoelace414]

1. What happened when we left Vietnam?

the North Vietnamese took over and have been running the country as one since then.

[justinsb]

7. Vietnam was different in several ways

it was primarily seen, by the Vietnamese, as a war of independence - first against France and then against the US (and against the colonial government that had been put in place). It was also being fought largely (in the south) by peasant farmers who were only too happy to return to their families and land after the war. Post-war vietnam was also much poorer than the post-war middle east and they were not driven by any kind of religious zealotry.

[TahitiNut]

14. And the most interesting difference in Viet Nam was ... (drum roll) ...

... we DIDN'T invade a sovereign nation, destroy it's government, and occupy it, despite the fact that it was unarguably "exporting terrorism" in the form of a uniformed, regular military as well as paramilitary forces!

The comparisons of Iraq to Viet Nam are VERY limited in validity.

The invasion and occupation of Iraq is a fucking War Crime! The Bushoilini Regime has committed crimes against humanity.

No matter how tragically misguided and politically inept the war in Viet Nam was waged, it wasn't a fucking war crime.

[justinsb]

16. Well, except the one that says

there was no easy way out of either one.

[TahitiNut]

17. Well, there IS an 'easy' way out of Iraq.

It's simple. REMOVE all U.S. military from Iraq and nullify all 'contracts' with U.S. corporations ... abandoning all U.S. assets in Iraq and ceding them to Iraq.

Then, cut U.S. military spending by $100 billion/year and deposit those funds on account for the rebuilding of Iraq under international supervision (except the U.S.), employing Iraqis instead of carpetbaggers to do the work!

[justinsb]

19. As unlikely as that scenario is it still leaves problems

Iran and Iraq have signed a military pact, so Iran should no longer be a danger in Iraq - however the Iraqi army is still poorly trained and they face a factionalized insurgency. Syria may still be a problem and if the Kurds get too 'upity' Turkey may become a problem as well.

The world (in the ME and elsewhere) would still see a civil war in Iraq as an American problem and it would be even more dangerous if the US left now and then had to rush back in 9 months from now.

[TahitiNut]

22. That's the way the cookie crumbles.

The U.S. has lost any moral authority to be involved. At this point, an "anti-U.S." attitude in the Middle East is to be expected. It's deserved. (Just like an anti-Manson attitude is deserved in the Tate family.) We're an outlaw nation.

[Oversea Visitor]

39. A civil war can be over fast

The occupation of Iraq if allowed to go on will make
1) More terrorist
2) Kill more innocents
3) Destroy more of the country
4) Allowed their wealth being strip by corporation
5) Fuel hatred to a higher level as time pass

Iraq war is illegal, the world already judge US as guilty, better you withdraw and make right. Then the process of moving in the right direction can begin.

Otherwise please continue to walk this road to HELL.
AND IT WILL BE YOUR HELL CREATED BOUGHT PAID FOR WITH LOTS OF INNOCENTS BLOOD.

Wake up to this REALITY created by your CHIMP

[ProudDad]

30. HEAR, HEAR!!

This is the ONLY just plan.

[Imagevision]

36. What a group - Boy's n Girl's - we wil never-ever-EVER!! leave Iraq

OIl production peaked in the US. in 2000 ok? -- The US. needs that oil (end of suburbia anyone?) The notion of Bush wanting to spread democracyu thru-out the worl? oh poleeze! -- do you really think we would have inveaded Iraq if it had the largest peanut farms in the world?

By the same token, those branded "The Insurgents" know damn well what they lose with a permament US. presence in Iraq that's why this war is going to get much worse before there can be any so-called "progress"

Don't know how their going to pull this off without a draft, be loogical, there are too many US. troops in Iraq on there 2nd. and third tours of duty. Over 1700+_ us. TROOPS ARE OVER 50 YEARS OF AGE?

HOW DID NIXON BOW OUT OF VIET NAM?? --OH YES, "PEACE WITH HONOR" AFTER 57,000 US. TROOPS WERE KILLED.

BOTTOMLINE? I'M GLAD I DON'T LIVE NEAR ANY BIG US. CITY

PS. THE FIRST TWO TANKERS THAT WENT OUT OF IRAQ WENT TO CHEVRON & TEXACO.

[i miss america]

2. I don't believe the US will ever leave Iraq.

[Vincardog]

3. Bingo. The Idiot Bush wants a permanent state of war

keep the people ignorant and terrified so it is easier to loot our treasury and rape our children.

[Missy M]

4. I think terror will continue for many years and the only way it will...

change is when the US and Britain change their policies towards the Middle East.

[justinsb]

8. I think over time that will help

but I don't think it will cure short term anger that is personal in nature. Also, China is becoming a much larger player in the region, having just signed oil deals with Iran and once Chinese interests are entrenched in the region US and Brit. policy may no longer matter as much.

[Missy M]

12. China's interests in the middle east are the same as the US....

OIL. What China's policies will be regarding Israel will determine how the rest of the middle east feels toward them. China also needs the US to continue trade because we are probably one of their biggest customers.

[justinsb]

15. Right

China has no opinion, that I've ever heard, regarding Israel. They are however gaining a reputation internationally as a fair player in the economic realm, paying fair prices and not interfering in internal politics. The US as a trading partner is certainly good for China, but China and India, (with almost 2 billion people between them) are rapidly becoming the market that the world is interested in.

[Missy M]

18. China is definitely on its way to becoming the world leader....

and what an industrious nation and people they are. My problem with both China and India is over population. Both countries have to work on that problem or this planet won't be able to handle the overload.

[justinsb]

20. That's true

but both are working on the problem, and both keep getting attacked by human rights groups for some of their solutions.

[ProudDad]

31. Uh, slave labor

That's another little feature of China and India too.

[Missy M]

33. Yes, it is slave labor by our standards but I'm not sure by....

their standards or cost of living. The problem for the US is we cannot compete with them with the wages they pay.

[justinsb]

38. It's a different culture

things are definitely different in a number of ways, but slave wages to you are fairly good to them. For example, a computer programmer in the US makes an average of 83k (according to Wired), in India that average drops to 13k, but because of the exchange rate 13k in India makes them upper middle class.

[zbdent]

5. I would say that the war is not going to end, but we would lose a lot less

American lives in Iraq . . .

[paparush]

6. PNAC/NEOCONS will NEVER leave Iraq

Never Ever Never Ever.

Too much oil there.

Too much war there.

War is good for PNAC/NEOCONS (keeps public distracted)

Too much of a good thing (for PNAC/NEOCONS)

[genius]

9. The terrorist attacks created by Duby's administration won't stop until

Bush and the PNAC gang are out of office and in jail.

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. Just Iraq? No.

To end this war we will have to withdraw from the Middle East entirely, as well as from Muslim Africa, South Asia and South East Asia.

They attack us because we are there.

When was the last time you heard of Muslim extremists striking aganst Brazil? Or China? Or Finland?

Countries which do not try to impose their will on other nations do not get attacked by those other nations.

[theoldgeezer]

11. The war started long before

we did anything in Iraq or Afghanistan, it was going long before Saddam caught some momentary favor in geopolitical struggles from the US. In fact, the "war" you're talking about - the insistence by some, of enforcing the concept of owning a region by a religion, has been going on for centuries.

And, it will go on for LONG after Iraq becomes recognized as "normalized". However, if Iraq successfully becomes a liberal republic or democracy of some kind, with religious freedom, Iraq will continue to be a target - whether there is ANY involvement from the US or not. In fact, the only way this is going to end, is when there is sufficient political change all over the Middle East, that it no longer becomes feasible to find military and large financial support for the idea of "muslim lands" - that is, a religion claiming control over a region.

As we know, the great majority of Iraqis have no wish for a theocracy of any kind, same too, of Iranians, and no doubt true of most of the Middle East - even the parts not free enough to have some demographics from. But this power struggle will be fed by governments until the last radical fundamentalist Islamic government falls in the Middle East and elsewhere. When you think about the time frame this could be... You have to realize this is going to take longer than any current administration, Congress, and possibly - and I hope and pray not - our lifetimes. Why the rest of the world has tolerated this situation, with hundreds of millions living under dictators, sham democracies, our outright violent and militant theocracies, I do not understand - especially when they seek military power, oil-fed wealth, nuclear weapons to enforce the strictures of Islam, and so on.

Perhaps the wiser question would be the following... HOw can the world effect a culture change in the Middle East, that no longer breeds and protects radical, militant, violent Islam? I believe that once that power base is gone, the growing threat around the world will collapse - at least no longer being a coordinated and concerted effort to conduct terrorism and mayhem.

[justinsb]

13. I think the answer to that has become fairly self-explanatory

the world cannot "effect a culture change in the Middle East" the world needs to work with the Middle East and let them evolve and change in their own way. History has shown that a people who are educated and well fed tend to become more (small l) liberal in their thinking and that that usually leads to slow progress toward more responsible government. There are however few instances, none that I can think of actually, where a government and/or culture has been imposed on a people and had great success in leading those people in a positive direction.

[theoldgeezer]

21. Your answer really doesn't make sense

because dictators with absolute control don't become liberal bastions of self-government and individual freedom by being "nice" to them or "working with them".

There is no amount of "educating" Iraqis that we could do. Nor of Iranians. And certainly, we're not going to change hte minds of the ruling, unelected and unaccountable Clerics in Iran.

This isn't a process of "evolution", it's going to be of sudden and chaotic "change" which abruptly changes the course of one regime, and institutes one that is sprung from the people themselves.

It is the denial of knowledge, free flow of ideas and communication that has for so long bred radical Islam. And they know it. Why do you think they are so determined to stamp out Satellite Dishes, radio stations, Internet Bloggers (for pity's sakes) anything non-conforming to thier view? It is that precise mental control over thier populations that is to blame for all of this.

Of coruse, if you have specific, workable ideas about "working with" or "education" that can actually be done, let's hear them. As it is, the regimes have to change first, before the people can be reached.

[justinsb]

24. But that change has to come from within

I've talked to a good many Iranian dissidents, most no longer living in Iran and the general consensus is that they will keep fighing, risking jail and death, to bring change in Iran, but should the US (or anyone else) attack, they will stand with the Clerics to fight for Iran. Change in the Middle East cannot come from the outside in a uniform. Development assistance, the sharing of technology etc., will bring about a more prosperous middle east, and that prosperity will ultimately lead to change, whether it is fast or slow, but current policies will alienate everyone in the region regardless of their ideologies.

[Karenina]

25. Please do remove

your "White Man's Burden" TM spectacles, it will help your vision. You obviously have a good mind! ;-)

[ProudDad]

34. Yeah, that's why the Muslims

collected and studied the knowledge and ideas of the ancient world while "Christians" were huddled in their villages in squalid ignorance during the "Dark Ages".

The ruling classes in Arab countries want to stamp out communication and free exchange of ideas for the same reason that the ruling classes in the West drown out the free exchange of ideas through de-facto censorship and hours and hours of crap on the media...to keep the masses under control.

Follow the money...whatever particular "religion" that's used as an opiate for the masses is irrelevant.

[nsd]

23. Good post

I think you've said it very well. I certainly couldn't have said it better. The task before us, in creating a real peace, is much bigger than resolving the Iraq war. Indeed, any efforts by the United States or the West alone will fall short. Really, the hard work has to be done by people within the Muslim world.

[Karenina]

26. Job ONE

REMOVE the rapist from the room.

[ProudDad]

32. You do recognize that "radical Islamics"

are a very small minority within Islam, right?

There are about the same percentage of radical Islamic "terrorists" in "Islam" as there are radical Christian terrorists in "Christianity".

I'm afraid your premise is rather simplistic.

It's about Oil and resources. Viet-Nam didn't have enough to justify the enormous cost and I also believe that Lyndon Johnson finally saw the evil he was perpetrating -- that's why he quit. Nixon, of course, had no conscience.

[Felix Mala]

27. Which war? The War on Terror or the one where a junta led by

Osama and al-Qaeda get control of Iraq, Saudi Arabia and any number of other countries, just as he planned from the start.

[ChiciB1]

28. I Agree With All Of You Who Are Pushing The China Syndrome....

and that can only mean things won't get BETTER!

Having started this war has only stirred up hornet nests, multiple fire ant hills and whatever other stinging insect analogies you might want to conjure up. I said this way back in 1999 when I first heard of the Neo-Con plan published by the London Times.

If anyone had stopped to really THINK about it, the prospects of peace OR democracy are slim to NONE!! Given the fact that this part of the world has never seemed to have been without some sort of conflict since the beginning of time, does anyone think that a "simpleton's mind" could make any difference????

Instead what we have created is "bubble, bubble... turmoil and trouble"!!!!

But the the most catastrophic outcome is that I don't think ANYONE knows how to prepare for the chaos!! Far too many countries have begun to think Americans are NUTS! Is more retaliation far off???

[WinkyDink]

29. Your premise?

We ain't leaving. We are erecting permanent bases around the world.
This isn't Kansas anymore, or even VietNam.
These Neo-Cons are out for World Domination, and they have the Pentagon and Halliburton to accomplish it.
Leave Iraq? Leave the oil fields? DAFT!

[ProudDad]

35. Cool

Now the U.S. can bankrupt itself building its war machine just as the Soviet Union did.

[Zinfandel]

37. The US isn't going to leave Iraq. Get fucking real...

You think the fourteen bases (including a couple of mega bases, the billion dollar new grand Embassy and the huge air fields) means they ever plan to leave?

When there's no more oil left in the region, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc...That's when they might pack up and leave...

Still, not likely, since it will be much easier to protect fascist Israel's interest by staying in the Iraq.

[Mountainman]

40. There is no such thing as a war on terror. There is only war to make

the rich ruling class richer.

The idea of a war on terror is a tool to sell us on the war. "We are fighting those who want to hurt us." That is complete bull shit. True we are fighting them but not because they want to hurt us.

The working class is to be used as cannon fodder for the rich ruling class's wars of plunder just like in the olden days when the peasants had to fight for the king so he could gain more wealth and property.