What 1,723 Look like, and why the number means little.

[Ioo]

Hello guys, I have been working on this page for a little while, and want to release it today.

I do not really settled on a name for it, for now it is called Forget the Numbers

It is a pictorial representation of what the number of dead look like.

I feel that a simple number does not really give you a since of the number that are dead.

When you hear a number like 1723, it sounds like a lot, but when you SEE it, the number becomes far more sobering.

There are some other things I would like to do, and if someone wants to help, please let me know. I want to add a column that has some thing like a timeline, when Bush said this, when Cheney said that.

Please go take a look, if you like what you see, please share it with others.

The page is piggy backing my blog Life in Bush's America

I posted this on DAILYKos I want my friends here to see it as well.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/20/2157/79844 Please go and recommend for me, if you think it is worthy.

[Catch22Dem]

1. Beautifully done - recommended. (n/t)

[alcuno]

2. Heartbreaking...

Totally heartbreaking.

[jedr]

3. very well done;

If you are in D.C. please go to Arlington Cemetery and visit the Womens Memeroial....artists have done painted portraits of each of the dead in the war...this visual brought tears to myself and my Vietnam vet friends eyes. The exhibit covers aprox. 200 running feet of wall space...brings it all home

[Ioo]

4. I have been there...

You are right, it is a hard place to visit. I go there ever Xmas to lay a wreath on my grandfather who is right behind the Womens Memorial (And to the side a little)

[jedr]

6. Salute!

[jmaier]

5. This is a much, much more meaningful thread than 10,000

who do you like in 2008? X vs Y, etc. Thank you for reminding us of what is really important.

[G2099]

7. Posted a link to your page in another forum

Thank You,

God Bless . . .

[Donailin]

8. excellent effort

don't stop now. The numbers are revealing, notice the pattern?

[Ioo]

12. What is that...

I am a little blind right now, all those flags...

[Ioo]

9. If you could...

I want to get the message out, if you have a DailyKos Account, can you please recommend there?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/20/2157/79844

I want everyone who can to SEE what this looks like

[jmaier]

11. done.

[Pool Hall Ace]

10. Great page

And yes, very sobering. :patriot:

[Pryderi]

13. recommended.

[obxhead]

14. excellent page.

I now post a full 8.5x11 paper in the back window of my car with the most current (8 am every morn) # KIA US troops. Nothing else just the #.
So many people don't have even a close guess as to what that # on my car means. My reply when they ask:
The number of charges of murder in the first degree * should face in a federal court of law.

[madeline_con]

42. The number of charges of murder in the first degree

excellent response for the unaware who walk around with their heads in their anuses.

[katinmn]

15. Well done.

[David Zephyr]

16. Nominated.

Thanks for your hard, yet inspired work, Ioo. :thumbsup:

[Clark2008]

17. Ironic that the most lives lost was in November 2004.

Great webpage, Ioo.

Too bad the subject matter is so very sad.

[jillan]

18. This should be posted everywhere!

excellent job!

[dchill]

19. I salute you...recommended

here and at dKos.

[Gelliebeans]

20. sad topic but great visual

it hits home the amount of men and women killed in bush's war.

[WillyT]

21. Great Job !!! - Recommended !!!

:kick:

[Ioo]

22. Thank you all for the positive words...

Lets hope that more people will SEE what this looks like, because the number has so little impact.

[Monkie]

23. you forgot the dead victims so yes 1723 means little to me..

the problem isnt bush,there would be no bush problem if 100,000 iraqi lives meant as much to americans as the lives of 1723 trained killers fighting an illegal war on illegal orders.
blame bush and cheney all you like but realise that its the millions of americans enabling this regime that is the real problem.

[Bridget Burke]

24. How do you know he "forgot" the dead (Iraqi) victims?

The Bush-voting Americans who are enabling this machine have shown no signs of caring for their own dead--much less the Iraqis.

Quite a few of the Americans who died were not "trained killers"--they were Reservists or National Guard--or just poor kids who joined up so they'd have money for education.

[Monkie]

25. when a memorial is set up for the perps with no mention of the victims

i think the word "forgot" is the politest and most civilized way i could put it.
as a liberal I do have a natural sympathy for the poor kids that got suckered into becoming trained killers (trained killers is a fair description of what basic military training does,create trained killers?) but if i set up a memorial for the victims of drink driving while excluding from that memorial those who had died from accidents CAUSED by drunk drivers i wouldnt survive the outrage.
The only other way to describe what i see is racism so deeply ingrained in a society that nobody finds it strange.

[Ioo]

26. I did not forget...

I did not forget, The fact is, 100,000+ numbers is just a purly to much for me to maintain, and the bandwidth would break me.

So I will say to you, Do not ASSUME that I forgot, you have no idea what I know and what I know.

Take some time and respect the things that are done, not the things YOU FEEL are not done, you have missed the point of this outright.

If, and when I find a way to properly represent 100,000+ people, I will do it, until them...

[Monkie]

29. i do understand,but do you understand my point and is it valid?

i should have made clear that i meant no disrespect for what you have done and i should have phrased my post so it was more clear that i didnt mean it personally although i hope people will take the point personally.
if that is a distinction that can be made by me?
to illustrate what i see as the problem i will briefly comment on your reply.
I understand that bandwidth is expensive but we are talking about 100,000+ human beings whose existance was cut short without reason.
those 100,000+ people need to be represented IN america by people that care about them and untill then they will continue dying.
and will die again and again,the next time those that govern america see fit for whatever reason.
People do need to realise it is going to cost people ALOT,huge sacrifices will need to be made in america by americans to solve america's problems, but to me that makes more sense than iraqi's making huge sacrifices to postpone america dealing with america's problems.

[Ioo]

30. I care...

But I do what I can. You are right it is 100,000 people. I would do it but it is purely economics. I have had a whole $54 donated to my site in the 8 months that it has been open.

I am not devaluing any life; I am just dealing with those that I can manage... I have a job, and so on...

I am a little offended that you think less of the effort made because you disagree with the subject matter, or better yet, YOU FEEL that it missing something. I, nor anyone, can be all things to all people.

That being said, I will repeat it, as soon as I can find a way to do it, I will, but 100,000 little images take some time.

On a similar thread, this is one of the reasons why, IMO, the left has such a hard time doing anything. We are paralyzed by committee, simply put; we do nothing because we fear excluding someone. We want to build consciences to the point that nothing gets done, or the final product no longer has the desired intent. The comments you made illustrate my point. Is the project done? no. Is it incomplete? Maybe. Do I (ME) value an American life first, yes, I do. Is this wrong of me, probably. I am thankful that you carry the torch of the Iraqi people, and more power to you. Right now, as a Disabled Veteran, I am focusing on the part that most Americans will feel, their fellow Americans.

[Booster]

49. Your efforts are beautiful, Ioo, and your heart is in the right place.

Welcome and I hope you feel at home here. I wouldn't have any idea how to do what you did with the flags, but I'm so happy there are people like you who can make tears fill our eyes. Keep up the good work.

[ticapnews]

38. No one is stopping you from creating your own memorial

and paying tribute to whomever you like. I thought this was a moving tribute to the American soldiers who have been taken from us. If you feel that strongly that a memorial is needed for the Iraqis killed in this conflict I hope you'll channel that energy into something creative and produce a moving tribute to those innocent victims.

[ScreamingMeemie]

40. I hope you did not cry watching the recruiters during Mike Moore's F9/11.

Many of those are your "trained killers". :shrug:

[graywarrior]

27. April & November seem like the heaviest lost.

Honorable page.

[dragonkeep]

28. Nicely done...

Would it be possible to add each name to their flag?

Another thought, we talk of the numbers of dead but we tend to forget the injured. Is there any way to honor them?

[tk2kewl]

31. I don't know. I don't think it is personal enough.

Each flag's alt text should have the soldier's name and maybe a link to the soldier's picture picture IMO.

[Ioo]

33. I will...

I do this on my blog...

look here
http://www.bushsamerica.com/index.php?cat=51

I do it there...

If someone put all of the names in a spead sheet for me, I will make it happen, I promise.

If someone has the time...

[upsidedownaussie]

37. You probably already know this, but

ICC maintains a chronological list of casualties here --

http://icasualties.org/oif/US_NAMES.aspx

you should be able to cut and paste the names into a spreadsheet

Great work BTW

[Ioo]

45. No, thanks! I will see what I can do n/t

[Straight Shooter]

32. That's a sobering reflection, especially looking at November 2004.

I was wondering if someone would be willing to take on the task of creating a list of small towns in America with a population that is very similar to the U.S. death toll in Iraq. Of course, there's more than what they tell us, such as suicides and "accidents," but that's another story.

For example, I live in a small town, and sometimes I look around and try to imagine everyone gone. Everyone. (There are less people in this town than the U.S. death toll in Iraq.) I wonder if it would have an impact on people if they realized how many people 1,723 or 1,800 or 2,000 people are.

You did a good job. Of course, for the bushies, you'll need to demonstrate the same thing with $100 bills instead of flags.

[EnfantTerrible]

34. You can alomost see the trend

leading up to the elections, how they must've stepped up efforts to "win" the war... all those soldiers in November 2004... politics in vivid relief.

Thanks for creating this memorial.

[Paradise]

35. a lot of hard work, a lot of feeling :( thank you. n/t

[bluebear200]

36. Regarding your time line...

Last week Raw Story (http://www.rawstory.com/) ran a story "The Path of War Timeline - By Larisa Alexandrovna and Muriel Kane"
I couldn't find it easily at their home page this morning, but an internet search brought up many references to this story on Raw as well as a bunch of other sites.
Thanks for the graphic realization!

[nibbana]

39. November - 2004 Post election deaths rise...

Was Bush keeping the KII numbers down to enhance his election chances?

[slybacon9]

41. The number is inaccurate

Considering earch person is more like 10 people. Each person was a brother, a dad, a friend, a mom, a son, a sister etc...

A more accurate number would be the number of people who lost someone they loved in this war...

10,000 loved ones? 50,000 loved ones?

Nobody is just one person.


Beautiful page btw...

[chrisbur]

43. Are we safe yet? n/t

[DrCorday]

44. Not that I like what I see...

Please go take a look, if you like what you see, please share it with others.

I don't at all like what I see, I wish there were zero little flags on your page. But I will proudly share it with others so they too can appreciate the sacrifices our soldiers have made while in combat.

The consequences of the lies, greed and chickenhawk zeal need to be made clear to the American people. Oh so sad. Please bring them home...

[Ioo]

46. You are right, I am sorry...

I did not mean it like that... I ment the page. Sorry...

[Ioo]

47. UPDATE: Added Names as per...

A few here have stated that I should add names, and I have..

http://www.bushsamerica.com/counting/

If you mouse over any flag you will get the name age and date of death.

[qanda]

48. I think it's beautiful

I would only add one little change and that's the comment at the top that says "these men have given their lives", I believe there are women who have died also. It's probably just an oversight, but just thought I'd point it out.

Very tastefully done. It seems that you care a lot.

[Imalittleteapot]

50. Moving. Anyone who has ever been handed a folded flag

will be especially touched. Thanks.

Send this to your Congress persons, the President, the House and Senate Leaders.

[libodem]

51. I wanted to look a little longer

and mouse over more flags but it made my eyes fill with tears. That's the difference in how we feel about the troops and support them. The repubs pretend to support our troops by saying we don't, anytime we disagree, on why we went to war and how it's being fought. BTW what a beautiful, thoughtful job. Commendations

[Joey Liberal]

52. Great Web Site!

I'm passing it along.

[Counterpuncher]

53. well done site

it shows you spent some time on it. It's just missing one thing: a tag line at the bottom saying "and counting...."

[Ioo]

54. good call n/t

[grannylib]

55. I can barely see to type, my eyes are just brimming with tears...

beautifully done.
I will send it to my freeper sister-in-law, and tell her I am praying that neither of her sons winds up represented by one of those folded flags, and that if he does, she had better be prepared to lay blame squarely where it belongs: on the Chimp, Cheney the Dick, and everyone who voted for/expresses loyalty to them and their filthy war of choice, all based on lies.

[BamaLefty]

56. Wow

So sad. :cry:

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. FYI with a little work it also works wtih Mozilla

[LiberalUprising]

58. Awesome job!

Well done, this really hits home.

I will pass this one along

[marinemom2004]

59. Thank you from a Marine mom

My son's gunny is under July 2004. His picture, together with my son from their first tour in 2003, is on my refrigerator. I have saved every DOD announcement through my Marine moms' support group since April of last year. It's heartbreaking. My son survived two deployments, and I will be forever grateful. We also have a close family friend whose 18 year-old son survived an IED and a sniper's bullet causing major facial injuries. He will never be the same. What Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al have done can never be forgiven. Impeachment will not do them justice, but at least it could be a start. Watergate pales in comparison to this.

[jwirr]

60. Your visual is absolutely touching. With the side bar

it brings home exactly what they do not want us to see. I think one of the reasons they keep these images off the screen is because they are aware that America now learns visually. We are no longer a nation of book readers. Now we have to see it to believe it. Thank you for this very moving image.

[JFN1]

61. This is wonderful, and heart wrenching...

Thank you so much! Finally, a resource we can point Bush supporters to that spells out the pain in a very respectful and sobering manner.

Some of our handbills list Bush administration lies - these may be helpful for your column of lies:

http://www.justicefornone.com/handbills/impeach4.htm
http://www.justicefornone.com/handbills/bushlies1.htm
http://www.justicefornone.com/handbills/bushlies2.htm
http://www.justicefornone.com/handbills/bushlies3.htm

Great job!

[freedom_to_read]

62. A suggestion

I have 1 suggestion: Perhaps you should reverse the chronology, so the top of the page is June 2005. It might have more impact to see the latest sad news first.

Just my .02. Great site.

[Ioo]

64. Great Idea, and Done! n/t

[Politicub]

63. So many lives

snuffed out for a war built on a pack of lies.

And what does George Bush do? Why, he gay bashes of course. What a fucking evil little man he is.

[Arkansas Granny]

65. So tragic.

I rolled my mouse over a few of the flags - couldn't handle it. So many (and so young) it just breaks your heart. I hope they haunt B*'s dreams at night.

[Spazito]

66. Very moving, excellent work

Thank you for doing this.

[Justpat]

67. Good work.

I sent the link to everyone I know.

I had tears in my eyes viewing it.

[myrna minx]

68. Wow-that is beautiful and moving. Good job. n/t

[eyeofthebeholder82]

69. Just a thought

Someone should post 300,000 Iraqi flags in memoriam of Saddam's victims.

[Up2Late]

70. If that doesn't do it, here's another view of approx the same number

of fallen American Soldiers.



These photos are from my website:

In this photo are just a few of the graves of the men killed during the "D-Day" invasion to re-take Europe from the Nazis, June 6,1944. This is a small part of the W.W.II American cemetery above Omaha Beach, Normandy, France.



"The World Never Needed a Soldier, as Much as I Wanted My Brother" - A message left to a lost brother at the 1/2 scale touring replica of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial - Santa Barbara, California 1985