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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 01:27 PM
Original message
Smoking Gun Alert: DoD e-mails show plot to blame FBI for Torture!
More FOIA documents were released today by the ACLU (available on-line click here)in connection with another legal action they are filing in New York Courts today. They are also available in pdf format.

Below is just one of the un-redacted e-mails they posted at their website, in connection to a new Press Release, which I posted in LBN at this link: <http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >

The link to the ACLU Press Release at their website is:
<http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=1833... >

DETAINEES-2797B

E-mail (from CTD employee to Frankie Battle) noting that sender is forwarding this EC up the chain of command, concerning alleged impersonation of FBI Agents at GTMO

12/05/03

Same document as Detainee-2797 with the following unredacted: "Of concern, DOD interrogators impersonating Supervisory Special Agents of the FBI told a detainee that the FBI" and "These tactics have produced no intelligence of a threat neutralization nature to date and CITF believes that techniques have destroyed any chance of prosecuting this detainee." and "If this detainee is ever released or his story made public in any way, DOD interrogators will not be held accountable because these torture techniques were done (by) the "FBI" interrogators. The FBI will (be) left holding the bag before the public."
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Pile the evidence as high bushCo's bullshit
this house of cards can't last forever
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. It's amazing they found this in all the "redacted" documents
I was just going though some, and some are almost totally redacted. :mad:
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. God, this administration is such complete scum
Not that I have any great love for the FBI, but Rummy needs to be held accountable for this, and not just some Joe Jerk down the line of command.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
59. I agree
He could've stopped it but he hasn't yet. :mad:
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jimshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. Outside of there being a special place in hell
for these criminals, we really out to find them a comparable place here on Earth (Perhaps Devil's Island) to spend the rest of their miserable lives in.
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thecai Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. How Appropriate!
Great idea, Jimshoes!
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is exactly the kind of thing that needs to be FRONT PAGE
wonder when the WP and NYT will pick it up *cough*
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. They'll hold it for a couple of weeks, and then, when force to answer
inquiries as to why it was not covered, they'll claim it's "old news."
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. Perfect!
First they alienated the CIA, now the FBI is in the cross hairs. I envisage a day, in the not too distant future, when the WH SOB's are surrounded by nothing but enemies and those seeking retaliation and to bring them down. Frankly, with each passing day, it's looking better and better for us. (imho)
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Didn't they piss off the NSA too?
I kind of remember something along those lines.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
69. What a great vision Me!
Imagine! Sure hope that creating reality through thoughts works! They will be totally screwed.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. Wow! Thanks for posting, Up. nt
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. WOW!!!! It also explicitly admits that they were committing CRIMES.
I'll bet the FBI is just THRILLED about this. I hope more of them come forward with damaging revelations about this huge gang of soulless criminals.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Check out what I found here on page 19 - 20 of the pdf file
...We emphatically do not equate any of these things our personnel witnessed, with the clearly unlawful and sickening abuse at Abu G that has come to light. The things our personnel witnessed (but did not participate in) were authorized by the President (under his Executive Order)...

...Nonetheless, in light of OGC's EC I wish to make clear our personnel have been present at various facilities when interrogation techniques, made lawful by the Executive Order, but outside standard FBI practice, were utilized....

...Our questions relate to the instruction in the EC to report abuse The EC states that if an FBI employee knows or suspects non-FBI personnel has abused or is abusing or mistreating a detainee, the FBI employee must report the incident

This instruction begs the question of what constitutes "abuse."

We assume this does not include lawful interrogation techniques authorized by Executive Order. We are aware that, prior to a revision in policy last week, an Executive Order signed by President Bush authorized the following interrogation techniques
among others sleep "management, use of MWDs (military working dogs), "stress positions" such as half squats, "environmental manipulation" such as the use of loud music, sensory deprivation through the use of hoods etc. We assume the OGC instruction does not include the reporting of these authorized interrogation techniques, and that the use of these techniques does not constitute "abuse"

Oh Boy, the smoke is getting thick here!
:evilgrin:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. OH. MY. GOD!!!!! How widely is this known? This gun is more than
smoking. WHO HAS SEEN THIS???? THIS IS IT!!!! I'd recommend again if I could.

I think you should start a new thread with this alone - that it's an executive order signed by the President and it specifies torture policies. Was this known previously? I think I recall something about an executive order but I don't know what things were included.

This is big!
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Rec'd. & kick!
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. I seem to remember a LOT of Senators, reporters and LW...
...activists saying and accusing the * WH of all these things (might have even been during some of the congressional confirmation hearings and scandal probes, but they alway denied this sort of thing. They always denied that his executive orders had this kind of reach.

I think it was mostly during the Abu Gareb hearings. :popcorn:

So which Senator are you going to send this to first? Maybe we should all pick 1 or 2 each. Both of mine are Lock step Repukes, so their out. I thin it usually works best when the E-mail comes from someone from their own State. :bounce:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. In addition to the Senators and Reps, send it to Olbermann, Raw Story,
Edited on Fri May-27-05 12:53 AM by Nothing Without Hope
BradBlog, and post it on Kos - that would be my initial suggestion. Lots of other places would be good, too. This has GOT to get out.

AND BE SURE TO SEND IT TO CONYERS!!!

(If you need help with this, ask for it - DU is a verb, you know!)
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Yes, I would like help, I'm sort of done for tonight, just report back...
...any and everyone that wants to forward this stuff to anyone you think would be interested in it. I'll continue going though the files and scanning the news reports for any mentions of this in the morning.

I'm sure the ACLU is still working on this too, but they have a lot on their plate.

If anyone see any News reports on this subject, Please report it here. I have an account at DailyKos, but I haven't tried posting there yet.

But, by all means, anyone that can help, please do, this stuff could be very important and/or the missing pieces people have been looking for.

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. OK, I will report back tomorrow afternoon. If you post what you find,
we can start dividing up where we post it and getting it out.

I'm betting that since this thread is so high on the Greatest Page, it's being seen already!

For now, good night. :hi: :boring:
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. This is what I sent to Rawstory .com
We have a Smoking Gun that needs investigating at these 2 links at Democratic Underground. Anything you folks can do to help us get the word out will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
(DU screen name: Up2Late)

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. I also suggest you PM DUer lala_rawraw, who is a Raw Story writer
Edited on Fri May-27-05 01:51 AM by Nothing Without Hope
and also Duer BradBlog, who is, well, Brad at BradBlog.

And this time I MEAN it - Good night! :hi:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
48. I have emailed about this to these online and corporate media sites:
The online sites:
Raw Story
Hullaballoo
Orcinus
BradBlog
Crooks and Liars

The corporate site:
Keith Olbermann (MSNBC)

Here's the text of the email I sent to the online sites (the one to Olbermann was modified):


I am writing to you five people to ask for your help in analyzing and publicizing new material obtained from the FBI by FOIA request. There are many files, and despite the redaction (which has a revealing pattern, as the poster notes later in the DU thread) there are important revelations. The corporate media will steer clear of this - so we have to do it online. I'm hoping that you will help.

There are links and discussion on this new development throughout this Democratic Underground thread, so please read the whole thing. This thread blasted up very quickly to the top of the Greatest Threads list and is now on the Home Page. The person who posted this thread is asking for help in analyzing the contents of these documents and getting them publicized.

Rep. Conyers needs to see these documents as well. There are other members of Congress who will also be interested, and many more who should be.

Here is the DU thread that contains the links:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Thread title: Smoking Gun Alert: DoD e-mails show plot to blame FBI for Torture!

There is a great deal of material. Here's an sample excerpt:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
DETAINEES-2797B

E-mail (from CTD employee to Frankie Battle) noting that sender is forwarding this EC up the chain of command, concerning alleged impersonation of FBI Agents at GTMO

12/05/03

Same document as Detainee-2797 with the following unredacted: "Of concern, DOD interrogators impersonating Supervisory Special Agents of the FBI told a detainee that the FBI" and "These tactics have produced no intelligence of a threat neutralization nature to date and CITF believes that techniques have destroyed any chance of prosecuting this detainee." and "If this detainee is ever released or his story made public in any way, DOD interrogators will not be held accountable because these torture techniques were done (by) the "FBI" interrogators. The FBI will (be) left holding the bag before the public."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note in the last paragraph that the redactor neglected to remove the word "torture." In addition to the impersonation of FBI agents by DOD and probably DHS personnel (there's a complaint about this too), there was this in an internal email (p. 19-20 of pdf file):

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
...We emphatically do not equate any of these things our personnel witnessed, with the clearly unlawful and sickening abuse at Abu G that has come to light. The things our personnel witnessed (but did not participate in) were authorized by the President (under his Executive Order)...

...Nonetheless, in light of OGC's EC I wish to make clear our personnel have been present at various facilities when interrogation techniques, made lawful by the Executive Order, but outside standard FBI practice, were utilized....

...Our questions relate to the instruction in the EC to report abuse The EC states that if an FBI employee knows or suspects non-FBI personnel has abused or is abusing or mistreating a detainee, the FBI employee must report the incident

This instruction begs the question of what constitutes "abuse."

We assume this does not include lawful interrogation techniques authorized by Executive Order. We are aware that, prior to a revision in policy last week, an Executive Order signed by President Bush authorized the following interrogation techniques among others sleep "management, use of MWDs (military working dogs), "stress positions" such as half squats, "environmental manipulation" such as the use of loud music, sensory deprivation through the use of hoods etc. We assume the OGC instruction does not include the reporting of these authorized interrogation techniques, and that the use of these techniques does not constitute "abuse"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you,
XXXXXXXXXXXX
"Nothing Without Hope" at DU
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Great! We are off to a good start,
I have a Family thing I have to go to at 4:00pm EDT, so I can't do much 'till tonight.

If you have time, send the same thing to the BBC News (Greg Palast in particular) <http://www.gregpalast.com /> and The Guardian and I think The Independent (I think The Independent is Liberal).

Thanks.

:pals:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. I'll PM you with my email address. If you give me yours, the further
exchange of info will be easier. So far, the people at Raw Story and at Crooks & Liars have responded to my emails.

Tonight I will try to take several hours to start going through the released documents. Clearly, as you say, they need to be analyzed before a good, strong story can be written. But what you have already pointed out is already damning!
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
47. Republican Senators NEED to hear from you!!
I'm in N.C., and both of my Senators are repukes. However, I'm STILL one of their constituents, and they're still going to hear from me, no matter whether they want to listen or not.

This is wrong!! Just plain WRONG! And if the repuke-controlled government finally DOES decide to rebel against bush/cheney/rove/rumsfeld, they need to know that one helluva lot of people are behind them.

Please, up2late, let your senators hear from you! You count!

:kick:
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. I know one Senator from South Carolina, Lindsey Graham, who...
...would be completely disgusted with all this. He is a former JAG, and was very angry about what he heard about the Abu Gareb stuff.

I don't know if he would pay as much attention from someone in N. Carolina, but he might be good to contact.

Thanks, I wish I could do more this afternoon, but I have a Family thing I have to go to at 4:00pm

Keep us updated. :patriot:
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. That's enough to warrant impeachment and indictment for war crimes
and crimes against humanity.

Whether the White House of Mr. Gonzales say so or not, sleep managemnet, use of dogs, stress positions, etx. are forms of torture. Bush authorized the use of torture.

It's time that we demand to see that memo of which the writer speaks. It is the smoking gun.
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. Sweet Jesus
WOW. These documents unequivocally implicate the Bush Administration for this torture stuff. I wonder if the mainstream media will cover it. I mean, a smoking gun like this, surely they will, right? Like they did with the memo proving the Bush Administration lied about Iraq...oh wait. Nevermind.
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
33. In black & white ... Executive Order signed by President Bush
That little shit ordered the use of torture! They can perfume that pig all they want & call it something else, but the little shit authorized it & LIED about it, AGAIN! And let the grunts take the blame! AGAIN!


Recommended & kicking this all night!

That asshole!
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Kicking this for the A.M. crew! n/t
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Democracy White Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
41. Oh how sick
I just wonder how many people in America know of this.

This needs to be shown to the MSM stat! Or to NPR or any media that would be willing to talk about this.
This shit has been swept under the rug far too long.

Kicked and recommended!


Dee
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
60. Oh wow!!! SMOKING GUN!!!
By Bush?! Wow! This is huge! Now what's going to happen? Who can get him for this? Is this a thing of our Senate and Congress or someone outside?
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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. I already joined ACLU last year but I'm giving them more $$ again
for the third time already this year.

They need all the support we can give them!

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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Look what else I just found, maybe Tom Ridge was involved Too
It was just above the "say the FBI did it" e-mail on page 71 of the pdf

DHS = Department of Homeland Security



Thanks ACLU! :evilgrin:
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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Good ol' DHS -- As long as it's for the Homeland it's a-ok, right?
Good find.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
61. Maybe this is why he left?!
So they don't get caught!
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
12. Wow indeed
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
16. kick
:kick:
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
18. Such corrupt dishonorable behavior, I am embarrassed for our country.
I think most FBI guys are the white hat guys. This really ticks me off.

And.... that is an understatement.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
21. Whoa. I'm stunned.
Consider the release of these (highly redacted) documents and their incredibly inflammatory language concurrent with the release of the Abu Ghraib photos of a highly inflammatory graphic nature. Will America at last for God's sake wake up and smell the coffee?

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Selteri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
23. The Bush-shite keeps growing and growing
It's like the halliburton bunny has much much too fiber in it's diet.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
28. A bonanza of 'smoking guns'; an increase in those willing to speak Truth...
.... to dictator Bush and his vermin neoconster fellow criminals.

On your horses, spread the truth.

Into the streets, spread the truth.

Within your souls, never deny the truth.

Galloway and, likely, billions of your fellow citizens on the planet are ready to hear you say the truth and urge them to help you purge the evil from "America"; restore "America" to a place of hope, of inspiration, of opportunity for diversity.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Peace.


www.missionnotaccomplished.us - Stop the slaughter of the innocents, of the dedicated, of civilization
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
30. Reminds me of the WH speach supervisor -- CIA told him "don't worry, we're
going to blame the British for the Niger clai; we're putting it in the SOTUS even though we know it's wrong."

The buck deffinitely does not stop anywhere near the WH.
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FourStarDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
34. Anyone willing to take bets on when and where this story breaks in MSM?
Or will it be too "complicated" for them to pick up and investigate?
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. I don't know who will, but I can tell you who won't: The WH Steno Pool...
...Oh, sorry, I think they like to be called the "White House Press corp." :evilgrin:

We need to get this stuff out to the British Liberal press and the European and the Internet's New Press too.

I Really wouldn't be surprised if Newsweek and the Washington Post picked this up, in order to redeem themselves or to take revenge, which is probably how the WH will try to spin it.

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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #37
62. I think so too
I think now the only way we'll ever have any justice is either if Bush is a private citizen again and all of them or someone outside does it. Maybe now all those countries thinking about getting him for war crimes will try?
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
36. Thank you so much for posting this. Everyone go read these documents.
There are a million of them but they are fascinating. Now that the mainstream media is dead, we all have to do our own reporting, and there is a certain rush that nerds like myself get from looking at the primary sources, even though I also don't feel qualified to really interpret them (the acronyms alone you'd need years of experience to pick your way through). But even as an amateur, you can still get a lot out of reading this stuff.

Especially interesting is what gets redacted. You can tell that the FBI is trying to distance itself from the interrogation techniques used by the military interrogators...but every time one of these emails describes what these techniques actually are, it's redacted. However, in the one cited in the OP, the redacter must have had a moment of inattention, because he forgot to black out the word "torture."

The people whose job it should be to read these things and digest them into a reliable narrative are not going to do it, because their paymasters don't want them to do it. So go do it on your own, and spread the word as far as you can.

Sigh,

The Plaid Adder
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. Thanks for you support Plaid, I know your replies carry a good bit...
...of clout around here.

(sorry, if some of this doesn't make sense, it's because I just now having my first Coffee) :hangover:

I think what you wrote is important, but I don't know if I would even want the current crop of "so-called American Journalists" working on, then screwing up, this very important story. This type of story that would require a good amount of WORK, something that the current crop of our "so-called Journalists" Do NOT seem willing to do. The older Journalist that we grew up with, are getting too old for this level of work or have been shamed into silence, by the Rove/GOP Hate-Machine.

I think the best we can hope for, these days, is to get some U.K./E.U. Journalist to cover this, with the support of the New Internet Press, working together, you never know, combined, we could ALL be the "New" Woodward and Bernstein.

It's too bad that Watergate Journalist Bob Woodward is dead (not really, but he's dead to me), what ever happened to Carl Bernstein?

I wouldn't give up completely on the Press, this could really make a name for some of these up-and-coming "Internet Journalists" if they put in some solid effort, it could really make a name for one or more of them. Combine them with some of the European Journalist, We could really break this wide open. I think it will take a joint effort though. :bounce:

I'm fairly New here, so I hope you don't mind me asking for a small favor. If you could contact any and ALL of the "On-line Journalist" we have here at DU (Will Pitt, BradBlog, lala_rawraw, and anyone else you can think of who is friendly to DU) and any Non-DUer's you know too. We need to get a lot of folks working on this.

I was also wondering the same thing, about the "selective redacting." I wonder if this is some sort of "informal leak" or is it part of the "smear the FBI campaign," or it could be just be sloppiness or part of the "half-ass" effort, that seams to be the norm for this administration. We may never know.

I do want to encourage you (and everyone else who reads this) to continue going through this, and the other 7 pdf files (click here) that were released the day before (which is where the 2002 FBI Koran report came from), and report back here if you find anything new (and damaging) to this case.


A complete listing of Torture related documents and links are available at this link. I haven't gone through them yet, but I bet their's a lot more info just waiting to be exposed.

Thanks again for your help, let me know if you come up with anything, :pals:

Up2Late-


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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. This is just excellent. It's on its way out of the suppression chamber!
Have you posted at dKos yet?
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Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
38. FBI needs to kick som inter-agency butt n/t
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
40. So, seriously. What does it take to have something considered a "scandal"?
I mean, :wtf:
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I don't know anymore, with the damn "liberal Media" (not) we have now...
...I don't know if a "Blow job" and a "Blue Dress" would even cut it any more.

I kind of makes me wonder, how much of this MSM was co-opted way back in 1992-93? :shrug: Has it been like this THAT long and that is the reason "White Water/Travelgate" turned into "Monicagate?" :crazy:
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Democracy White Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
43. Didn't they also release pics of the tortures
If so where can I find them?

Dee
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. No, I guess that's what the ACLU was going back to court for...
...yesterday, at least that's what their Press Release said. Here's the link to that thread.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >
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Democracy White Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Oh ok, I am just curious as to what really happened
and I'd like to see those pictures so that I can get pissed off some more and show them to my mom so I can say "See? Look at what the Bush adminstrations is doing."


Dee
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
49. kick.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
53. once again, we must BE the news...
"Dear________(ABC,NBC,CBS,CNN, etc.).. Where's your coverage of __________. It is a story that is essential for the people to understand in order to run a government 'of the people'."
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I agree, but to be fair, this is such a huge and complicated...
...story, for even the best reporter, it could take up to a week to sort through and write a coherent story about this.

Yes, the info is there, but it's widely spaced between all the redacted pages of documents.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
55. Here's my e-mail to Reuters.
Dear Reuters Editors:

First I'd like to say that I think your Newswire Stories (for the U.S. Market) are the best written and most politically neutral available in the U.S. market today, but I'd like to give you tip for a Major News story, that has either been completely suppressed by the American Media, or has been totally over looked.

As I know you are aware, the ACLU released hundreds of FBI Documents they acquired though a FOIA request on Wednesday May 25, 2005, which Reuters reported as "FBI memo reports Guantanamo guards flushing Koran." But what you and the U.S. Media seems to have missed is that the next day, May 26, the ACLU issued another Press Releases and more FOIA FBI Documents, that contain the long missing "Smoking Gun" that could finally lead to the impeachment of U.S. President George W. Bush and the shame and terror he has brought the U.S. and the World. The ACLU's May 26, 2005 Press Release is at this link: <http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=1833... >

The new FOIA Documents are at this link: <http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/052605/ > or as a pdf file at <http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/052605/1474_38... >

Including: a Department of Defense e-mail that shows a plot to blame the FBI for the GTMO Torture! An e-mail asking why the DHS (Department of Homeland Security) is impersonating FBI agents (both Federal Crimes), and a FBI e-mail that states as a known fact, that one of George W. Bush's Executive Orders, authorized torture at GTMO.

I post at the Internet community board called DemocraticUnderground .com as Up2Late and have posted this and more at the these links:
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >
and
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >

I am a Patriotic American Democrat, but am tired of these crooks and liars destroying my America.

One of the most damaging documents is at this link: <http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI_3977.pdf > an FBI memo (pdf) stating that Defense Department interrogators impersonated FBI agents and used "torture techniques" against a detainee at Guantanamo.

This is much too big and complicated story to be left to the amateurs, please investigate this further, and report this story, for the good of the world.

Thanks,

Signed
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ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
56. What a crock...
FBI inside our country, CIA - Black Ops, outside. Maybe the FBI will get mad and leak some good info. :think:
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-28-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. I hope so, but didn't * pick a new FBI chief since this happened?
I wonder if the New guy would be helpful, or a hindrance?

Do you know of any Former FBI Chiefs that write columns or do commentary for any of the MSM or other types of media? One of those guys (who's out of government) might be good to contact. :think:
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. I just found this thread posted over at DKos!
Someone named "Stand Strong" over at DKos DID post my Thread over there at this link <http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/27/12042/7311 > and tell me if this shows interest,

106 Comments
and their "greatest" equivalent "recommend this" is

Recommend this (4.00 / 33)

Also, I think someone named Susan over there might be working on this too.

Good Huh?! Thanks DKos, Stand Strong and Susan! :patriot:


:woohoo:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. This is very encouraging - story is getting out. A dKos group is working
Edited on Sun May-29-05 01:49 PM by Nothing Without Hope
on the documents. One of the comments at the dKos thread gives the email of the person who has taken a lead in this as well as the web site where it is happening. Not the best idea to do all the research in a public place, but still, it's encouraging that it is happening. Here is the dKos comment in the thread that was started with "Stand Strong" posting on Up2Late's DU post:


FANTASTIC WORK (none / 1)

That is why we've convened a group of volunteers to go through all of those documents.
It's a strange adventure in that we don't know what we're looking for. But, my hope is that we'll know it when we see it.
Join us! (link given here: http://www.boomantribune.com/?op=displaystory ;sid=2005/5/26/114948/486) You too, Stand Strong!

E-mail me at susanhu at earthlink dot net

There are thousands of pages, and much left to be done.

We also need a boss who can oversee the work, and who can review the findings. I was hoping a retired librarian who'd volunteered on my diary yesterday would e-mail me but I don't think I've heard from him/her.

Susan in Port Angeles (my cat)

by SusanHu on Fri May 27th, 2005 at 10:15:30 PDT


Note that they are asking for help, including a "boss" to coordinate the analysis.

It appears that some members of dKos echo the freeper talking point that DU is a looney bin and that nothing here can be trusted or taken seriously, and they are showing a lamentable unwillingness to credit Up2Late for breaking this story - its DU source was glossed over very quickly in the opening post and then there was all props - including to themselves - to the dKos poster for having broken the story - when they copied 20 hours after its posting here, when it was already on both the Greatest Threads AND the Home Page. Nor did they take the helpful step of alerting to the dKos post in this thread - Up2Late had to do that himself after several days. I posted a couple of times in the dKos thread on this - we are all one community, and we need to coordinate better on the important news.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Thanks for these words of support and the work you are doing on this
with me, NWH (Nothing Without Hope). If anyone else wants to help out on this (reading though the un-redacted parts of the 8 FBI FOIA pdf Documents or have a good contact person), post what you think you can help with, or contact me or NWH via Private message.

Also, If we have any ex-military or civilian intelligence people here who can translate some of the more cryptic acronyms in these documents, we really could use that type of help.

Remember to tell a Military Veteran or Military Family Thank You this weekend, especially if you know they have lost a Child or Spouse to our recent Wars.

Thank You Veterans. :patriot:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. The dKos poster responded to the threads of Up2Late and me this way:
(This is on the same page as the other parts of the Kos post: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/27/12042/7311


Update <2005-5-29 16:59:5 by Stand Strong>: Coming back from an out of state weekend, I saw comments from Up2Late and another that I hadn't given proper credit for this story. I just want to make clear two things - A: I did not purposely omit the original posters name, only I hurried this along after seeing it at DU and B: that credit should, is, and in the future will will be given, on my part, to the originators (in this case, Up2Late) to those who are responsible for stories that I move along. My sincerest apologies to Up2Late and anyone else whose idea of me may have been sullied by this carelessness on my behalf. I apologize!


There really does need to be better coordination between DU and dKos, and there are definitely signs of some dKos posters having a low opinion of DU. One of the posters (not the diarist) left this comment:


Interesting (none / 1)
but I can't get the ACLU link to work, and I'm sorry to say that I take anything posted at DU with a gigantic grain of salt.
Maybe you could fix the link?

Not just another blog: The Next Hurrah


This attitude doesn't reflect ALL dKos posters' view, but it is an issue that needs some attention - DU and dKos are really the SAME community, and it is damaging and counterproductive to put down either one. In this case, it was also rather ironic, since the key news story had been posted at DU 20 hours before dKos and was on both the Greatest and Home pages when the diarist put up the post.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #57
63. I remember
shortly after the election Bush went and spurged the FBI. Anybody who wasn't a "yes" men he got rid of.
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ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. He did get rid of anyone not a 'yes' person...
for a good reason, his butt in a sling. There is a power struggle, been going on for a long time. If we are lucky, the good guys may win. I'm sure the Valerie Plame outing was frowned on by most, they are not into outing our national security and putting ops in danger.
I really hope we can get the papers, it would help to get our country back under control.
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
66. You know, I read this stuff and I have to wonder to myself why
the FBI, Secret Service, US Marshall's and local police forces are tolerating this bullshit!?!?!?! These people have the power to combine their efforts and mount an offensive. Do they really NOT realize that they would have MILLIONS of Americans and MILLIONS of foreigners willing to back them up?

These government agencies need to get their act together, combine their efforts and start counteracting all these attempts by bushitler to make THEM take the wrap. I have had DAILY discussions over the past few months with hundreds of people that are quite convinced "we the people" need to get together and remove the true criminals from their positions of power. WE ARE becoming informed in large numbers now.

Does it REALLY take starvation, bankruptcy, a pandemic, and an inability to buy the latest toy for ENOUGH of America to WANT to know the truth? I am of the opinion it can be accomplished before the complete collapse of our society as we know it OR a HUGE "payback" from one of the MANY countries our government has f'd over for the past 50 years. It inflames me that many "liberals" continue to sit idly by with this information waiting for the bomb to drop rather than encouraging other people to find the truth and act upon it.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-29-05 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
68. It's helpful to read the FULL ACLU PRESS RELEASE about these documents:
This is from the same link originally given by Up2Late - I'm just putting it here for the convenience of people who have not yet read it. I will underscore sections I find especially interesting.

MODS - this is a press release, thus NOT copyrighted.

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=1833...

Defense Department Personnel Impersonated State Department Officials in Guantnamo Interrogations, FBI Documents Show


May 26, 2005

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: media@aclu.org

Defense Department And CIA Are Unlawfully Withholding Photographs and Documents Concerning Torture Of Prisoners, ACLU Argues in Court Today

NEW YORK -- Documents released by the FBI state that Defense Department personnel impersonated State Department officials in interrogations at Guantnamo Bay, the American Civil Liberties Union said today.

"Defense Department interrogators, possibly on instructions from high-level officials, went to great lengths to avoid being held accountable for the use of unlawful interrogation methods," said Jameel Jaffer, a staff attorney with the ACLU. "Apparently Defense Department personnel were willing to use torture but they wanted others to be held responsible for it."

In December 2004, the FBI released documents stating that Defense Department interrogators impersonated FBI agents in order to avoid being held responsible for the use of "torture techniques." The new documents provide the first indication that Defense Department interrogators impersonated State Department officials as well.

The documents released by the ACLU today are different versions of documents that the FBI provided to the ACLU several months ago. One of the new documents which was previously redacted refers to "information concerning impersonation by DOD interrogators at Guantnamo representing themselves to be officials of the FBI and U.S. State Department." The remainder of the document is almost entirely redacted. Another of the newly released documents, dated January 2004, suggests that the FBI would "finally make an arrest" in relation to the "interrogations in June 2003 when an FBI agent was impersonated."

The FBI released the documents in response to a federal court order that directed the FBI and other government agencies to comply with a request under the Freedom of Information Act filed by the ACLU, the Center for Constitutional Rights, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense and Veterans for Peace. The New York Civil Liberties Union is co-counsel in the case.

Today, the ACLU and the New York Civil Liberties Union will return to federal court to argue for the release of other documents withheld by the Defense Department and the CIA.

"The United States government continues to withhold documents critical for determining who is ultimately responsible for the systemic and widespread abuse of detainees held in U.S. custody abroad," said Amrit Singh, a staff attorney with the ACLU. "The public has a right to know the full truth about the involvement of high ranking U.S. officials in this scandal."

At todays hearing, the ACLU will seek the disclosure of Department of Justice memoranda relating to CIA interrogation methods and a Presidential directive authorizing the CIA to set up secret detention centers in other countries. Although the documents have been referenced in media reports, the CIA has refused even to confirm or deny that the documents exist. The ACLU will also seek the disclosure of photographs of abuse and Defense Department documents relating to concerns raised by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The government agencies named as defendants in the case are: the Department of Defense, Department of Justice, Department of State, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Central Intelligence Agency.

Today's documents are online at: http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/052605 /. All documents obtained to date are online at www.aclu.org/torturefoia/.

At todays hearing, Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein will hear oral arguments from attorneys representing the ACLU and the government. The hearing will continue on Tuesday, May 31 at 10 a.m. in Judge Hellersteins courtroom at the United States District Court located at 500 Pearl Street in New York.

The lawsuit is being handled by Lawrence Lustberg and Megan Lewis of the New Jersey-based law firm Gibbons, Del Deo, Dolan, Griffinger & Vecchione, P.C. Other attorneys in the case are Singh, Jaffer and Judy Rabinovitz of the ACLU; Arthur N. Eisenberg and Beth Haroules of the NYCLU; and Barbara Olshansky of the Center for Constitutional Rights.


In fact, the federal judge did rule that additional photos of the abuse must be released to the public:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Thread title: "Judge: Public Has Right to See Abuse Photos Abu Ghraib prison"
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. kickety kick
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-05 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
72. Punt
:headbang:
rocknation
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LeeB Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. THWACK!!!!!!
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
73. FOLLOW UP--Update to Smoking Gun Alert: DoD e-mails show plot...
I just posted a Follow up link to this thread at the link below. It refers to a new webpage I just put together which contains the damaging FOIA Docs that I weeded out of the first pdf. Here's the link: FBI_FOIAdocsMay26

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-31-05 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
75. FINALLY! I just found the FIRST Magazine Article about this matter!
It's not a HUGE publication, it's a small LW, but long established Magazine call "The Progressive." I just posted this article to LBN!

On Edit: They just moved it to the Editorials and Other Articles forum :mad:

July 2005 issue of "The Progressive"

Stripping Rumsfeld and Bush of Impunity

by Matthew Rothschild

When Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee last year, he was asked whether he "ordered or approved the use of sleep deprivation, intimidation by guard dogs, excessive noise, and inducing fear as an interrogation method for a prisoner in Abu Ghraib prison." Sanchez, who was head of the Pentagons Combined Joint Task Force-7 in Iraq, swore the answer was no. Under oath, he told the Senators he "never approved any of those measures to be used."

But a document the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) obtained from the Pentagon flat out contradicts Sanchezs testimony. Its a memorandum entitled "CJTF-7 Interrogation and Counter-Resistance Policy," dated September 14, 2003.
In it, Sanchez approved several methods designed for "significantly increasing the fear level in a detainee." These included "sleep management"; "yelling, loud music, and light control: used to create fear, disorient detainee, and prolong capture shock"; and "presence of military working dogs: exploits Arab fear of dogs." On March 30, the ACLU wrote a letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, urging him "to open an investigation into whether General Ricardo A. Sanchez committed perjury in his sworn testimony."

The problem is, Gonzales may himself have committed perjury in his Congressional testimony this January. According to a March 6 article in The New York Times, Gonzales submitted written testimony that said: "The policy of the United States is not to transfer individuals to countries where we believe they likely will be tortured, whether those individuals are being transferred from inside or outside the United States." He added that he was "not aware of anyone in the executive branch authorizing any transfer of a detainee in violation of that policy."

"Thats a clear, absolute lie," says Michael Ratner, executive director of the Center for Constitutional Rights, who is suing Administration officials for their involvement in the torture scandal. "The Administration has a policy of sending people to countries where there is a likelihood that they will be tortured."

(more at the link above)
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-01-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. CORRECTION: It's about Similar FOIA documents
But not exactly these. The author might be someone to contact and ask for another article.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
77. UPDATE--NEW ACLU Press Release! Fed. Court Orders Government to Turn...
(This is a NEW ACLU Press Release, Which is related and the result referred to in the May 26, 2005 Press Release, which I posted about One Week ago. I heard about this during the NPR Hourly news update, If your favorite News source has nor reported this, you should send this to them and ask them to report it!)


A federal judge has ordered the Defense Department to turn over photographs and movies depicting detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq as part of an ongoing Freedom of Information Act lawsuit brought by the ACLU.

Federal Court Orders Government to Turn Over Videos and Photos Showing Detainee Abuse


June 2, 2005

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: media@aclu.org

NEW YORK -- A federal judge has ordered the Defense Department to turn over dozens of photographs and four movies depicting detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq as part of an ongoing lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union.

"These images may be ugly and shocking, but they depict how the torture was more than the actions of a few rogue soldiers," said Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU. "The American public deserves to know what is being done in our name. Perhaps after these and other photos are forced into the light of day, the government will at long last appoint an outside special counsel to investigate the torture and abuse of detainees."

The court order came in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by the ACLU, the New York Civil Liberties Union and the Center for Constitutional Rights to obtain documents and materials pertaining to the treatment of detainees held by American forces in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantnamo Bay.

Attorneys for the government had argued that turning over visual evidence of abuse would violate the United States obligations under the Geneva Conventions, but the ACLU said that obscuring the faces and identifiable features of the detainees would erase any potential privacy concerns. The court agreed.

"It is indeed ironic that the government invoked the Geneva Conventions as a basis for withholding these photographs," said Amrit Singh, a staff attorney at the ACLU. "Had the government genuinely adhered to its obligations under these Conventions, it could have prevented the widespread abuse of detainees held in its custody in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantnamo Bay."

The court order filed late yesterday requires the government by June 30 to reprocess and redact 144 detainee abuse photographs provided by Sergeant Joseph Darby to the Armys Criminal Investigation Command. The order also requires the government to provide the court with an estimate of the length of time it will take to reprocess and redact four movies included as part of the Darby collection by June 10. The decision comes after the court privately viewed eight of the images from the Darby collection to determine whether the photographs should be released under the FOIA. The ACLU expects redacted versions of the photographs to be released within the next six weeks.

To date, more than 35,000 pages of documents have been released in response to the FOIA lawsuit. The ACLU has been posting these documents online at <http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia >.

The FOIA lawsuit is being handled by Lawrence Lustberg and Megan Lewis of the New Jersey-based law firm Gibbons, Del Deo, Dolan, Griffinger & Vecchione, P.C. Other attorneys in the case are Amrit Singh, Jameel Jaffer and Judy Rabinovitz of the ACLU; Arthur N. Eisenberg and Beth Haroules of the NYCLU; and Barbara Olshansky of the Center for Constitutional Rights.

The court order is available at:
<http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=1839... >
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