Violent animal rights extremists and eco-terrorists

[sui generis]

now pose one of the most serious terrorism threats to the nation, top federal law enforcement officials say.

FBI, ATF address domestic terrorism

Officials: Extremists pose serious threat

From Terry Frieden
CNN
Thursday, May 19, 2005 Posted: 3:31 AM EDT (0731 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Senior officials from the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms (ATF) and Explosives told a Senate panel Wednesday of their growing concern over these groups.

(snip)

John Lewis, the FBI's deputy assistant director for counterterrorism, said animal and environmental rights extremists have claimed credit for more than 1,200 criminal incidents since 1990. The FBI has 150 pending investigations associated with animal rights or eco-terrorist activities, and ATF officials say they have opened 58 investigations in the past six years related to violence attributed to the ELF and ALF.

In the same period violence from groups like the Ku Klux Klan and anti-abortion extremists have declined, Lewis said.

(snip)

No deaths have been blamed on attacks by those groups so far, but the attacks have increased in frequency and size, said Lewis.

"Plainly, I think we're lucky. Once you set one of these fires they can go way out of control," Lewis said.

------------------------
Lovely. Americans who give a damn about the environment are the new bugaboo terrorist. Oh, don't belong to ELF or ALF? No problem - just the association with environmental causes should be enough to put you on a watch list now.

Can't these flaming idiots find any real terrorists?

Message to FBI - go fuck yourselves. These organizations are not terrorists - they do criminal activity. Not every criminal undertaking is terrorism. One of these days when Dems are back in charge we're going to dump your retarded asses and hire some adults.

-sui

[Kipling]

There is a small tin-hat part of me...

That says they're building up to arrange another 9-11 perpetrated by ELF or someone.

Of course there's a larger part that's laughing because it's called "Elf".

[expatriot]

3. I think that acronym is one of the coolest, here's why....

The idea of an elf in the Celtic, mythic sense.... as a stealth defender of nature, a ranger of sorts.

[expatriot]

1. I'm not a radical, I don't condone property destruction as a tactic but...

ALF and ELF go out of their way to prevent loss of life in their actions, most if not all of ELF's arson cases are in unoccupied housing developments at various stages of construction. So to say that these groups pose a threat to national security is a very big stretch.

The establishment does not care about ELF and ALF, they know that they are small fringe groups with limited impact - the reason why they talk about them all the time is so they can smear the entire environmental and animal rights movements, guilt by association.

[CTLawGuy]

4. I think property distruction with a political motive is terrorism

I agree that it's not the greatest threat to national security, but at the same time, those tactics are terrorist.

How would you feel if a bunch of repugs saw a Kerry sign in your yard and, waiting until you went on vacation, burned down your house. Would you not consider that terrorism, because they "made sure no one died"?

Groups who commit violent and destructive crimes ostensibly on our behalf do NOT help our movement, but rather reduce our credibility in the minds of the general public.

I would not defend groups like ELF.

[expatriot]

6. of course it depends on def. of terrorism, I'd call it "sabotage"

which may be classified as terrorism but I would distinguish between "terrorism" and "sabotage" is the intent. Terrorism can be defined, in my opinion, if the main intent is to terrorize, to inflict such terror and fear upon a populace because of political/ideological motivations....

WHEREAS sabotage's main intent is to inflict economic damage as to dissuade or prevent a certain activity. ELF's campaign is one of sabotage, to inflict economic loss upon developments that infringe upon wilderness areas, etc. so to cause the insurance rates of such developments to increase as to make it very costly to develop in such areas. That to me is a campaign of sabotage to be differentiated from terrorism.

[CTLawGuy]

7. so if someone burned down your house or blew up your car

you wouldn't feel "terrorized?"

So the point of so-called "sabotage" is NOT to intimidate the target into desisting in an activity through violent or destructive means?

[expatriot]

15. point taken nt

[sui generis]

26. I feel terrorized by credit card companies

haul their asses off to gitmo and electrofry their balls.

Hell do it on the way.

[CTLawGuy]

28. well, if thats what you think

whatever.

[sui generis]

29. illuminating discussion skills there

whatever.

Here's what I think:

This is the vanguard of looking at every possible threatening or criminal activity as a "terrorist" activity, subject to special prosecution and special loss of constitutional rights.

Our fucked up government is doing this because they can't find any real ones. It was only a matter of time before the idiots who are responsible for our safety would start looking at ordinary Americans to justify their salaries.

Criminal acts and vandalism are not terrorism. You had to have grown up with Bader Meinhoff in Germany and Black September in Italy to understand the difference.

This is just pure made up bullshit and a prelude to making supporting environmental causes uncool and politically dangerous.

[CTLawGuy]

31. acts of vandalism

you are saying that a group of Neo-Nazis spraying swastikas on a synagogue door is not committing a terrorist act? Are the victims not afraid? how about when the KKK burns a cross on a black family's lawn?

I agree that the government is overreaching, and I believe even terrorist suspects deserve all the constitutional protections that any suspect receives.

However, any group that wilfully destroys property or causes serious or deadly harm to people to make a political statement is a terrorist group.

[sui generis]

32. exactly

a group of neo-nazis spraying swastikas is vandalism and a hate crime.

A group of neo-nazis bombing a jewish starbucks and killing a bunch of people is terrorism.

A group of neo-nazis poisoning the water supply in New York or LA to kill all the einviger jews is terrorism.

A group of angry muslims flying airplanes into a couple of skyscrapers and the pentagon is terrorism.

Burning a hummer - that's arson.

[CTLawGuy]

34. a group of kids spraying happy faces is vandalism

but not a hate crime and not terrorism.

a business owner burning his own building down to collect insurance is fraud and arson.

a confused pilot flying into a skyscraper in fog = negligent


A group of extremists razing an SUV dealership because they think SUV's harm the evironment = terrorism.

An anti-choice fundie bombing an abortion clinic in the middle of the night with no one there for the purpose of stopping abortions = terrorism.


it depends on motive.

[Runcible Spoon]

37. gee I feel so much better knowing you and the Bush Junta

get to decide what is and isn't terrorism based on Holy Worship of Material Things :sarcasm:

[CTLawGuy]

38. now where did I say anything about Bush getting to define terrorism?

Im giving my opinion of what it is.

I know if it was YOUR house or YOUR car that was destroyed because someone didn't like you or it, you wouldn't have such a cavalier attitude about the subject.

[Runcible Spoon]

43. actually, I HAVE HAD my car and house atacked and vandalized.

by a bunch of angry bigots. However they justified targeting me, and it is a loooong story, and they prolly had some twisted "political" reason, does NOT make me scream out that "Minority X" are terrorists. Their reasons may have been fucked up but I do NOT relegate them to the most extreme category nor call for their blood nor ask that they be stripped of their Constitutional rights and shipped to Gitmo. Maybe next time you'll choose an easier target, but I HAVE been down that road. It's FUCKING STUFF. Yes, I felt violated, YES I felt afraid, but "terrorized" to the point where I would ask that this group be labeled and called terrorists as defined by the Patriot Act? HELL NO. I'd rather take those events and fucking deal with them as best I can rather than call out for Big Daddy Bush Government to black label groups in an overly broad and convenient category and strip the rights from everyone who defies a system, regardless of whether I agree with them.

[CTLawGuy]

46. I am not asking for anyones constitutional rights to be stripped away

or for anyone to be sent to Gitmo. What I want is criminal acts, including terrorism, to be punished by our legal system with full rights according to all parties.


Whether what those people did to you is terrorism, I'd need to know more details before forming an opinion. What motivated them is very important. Also, is it isolated, or do they do those things to other people? Also, are they very organized for the purpose of committing crimes?


Also, I don't think all terrorists should be treated like the 9-11 plotters. It should be dependent on the crime committed.

[Runcible Spoon]

52. OK now we're getting somewhere.

I am just extremely uncomfortable bandying about the word "terrorist" since it carries extreme consequences under the Patriot Acts and seems to be a convenient way for neocons to blacklist any radical group that threatens them. As far as my experience, what motivated them was an assortment of ideological reasons ranging from religion to economic class to ethnic identity, they targeted others who had a similar profile as myself over the course of a year, and I doubt they are "organized" in the sense that they held secret meetings or went to rallies; they seemed to just be reactionary. When I have more time I may PM you the whole enchilada but I am still stung over this and trying to make sense of it and feel uncomfortable posting specifics out in the open.

[CTLawGuy]

56. I understand

I think the Patriot Act is total crap and should be abolished. but I don't believe that there is not terrorism.

There are also different degrees of terrorism in my opinion. All terrorists are bad but not all terrorists are as bad as the 9-11 hijackers. It depends on their tactics and the crimes they commit.

I'm sorry this group targeted you, they should be in jail as terrorists if they are committing violent crimes to advance their political cause.

I look forward to maybe seeing your PM.

[sui generis]

65. motive is a nuance that is easily lost when you start accusing

people of being terrorists, and by then your rights are gone.

I'm not concerned so much with prosecuting real crime, however motivated, but with being persecuted for giving money to environmental and animal rights groups such as Sierra Club, Ocean Conservancy, World Wildlife Federation and even HSUS. I also give money to PETA - don't always agree with everything they do, but there's more baby than bathwater, and I'm not going to withdraw my support even if some yahoo decides that PETA, et al, are terrorist organizations.

If this is a pretext to go after PETA and its supporters because they give money to something that can losely be construed to be a terrorist organization based on some silly media whore senator's temporal notion of terrorism then I have a serious problem with where this is going.

With 800,000 American PETA "terrorists" in the U.S. alone things start getting silly. It's political grandstanding, and it needs to be nipped in the bud.

[Runcible Spoon]

36. well you have effectively classified almost every frat I know

as a terrorist group: "any group that wilfully destroys property or causes serious or deadly harm to people". Of course they don't have a political statement so maybe that makes them even worse :evilgrin: You get my point.

[CTLawGuy]

40. frats can be stupid

but they don't have a political agenda which they are trying to advance by doing this. They are not trying to intimidate people into not resisting their cause.

If ELF blows up SUVs, then it says to anyone with an SUV "you may get targeted too." That's intimidation.

[Runcible Spoon]

44. frats don't intimidate? what a laugh.

I'm not going to broadbrush all frats, but some of them in my town are rapists and bullies who beat the shit out of people. So it's worse when people have an ideological reason for destroying property? How the hell does that work?

[CTLawGuy]

50. its like hate crimes laws

if I murder someone because he slept with my wife, it is not as heinous as if I sat in my truck and shot an innocent black person walking down the street because I hate black people.


People who destroy property to advance an ideology are VERY likely to do so again, therefore people (and property) are likely to be in further danger.

people who destroy property because they are drunk or being stupid will be less likely to do so again, especially if they are caught.

[Runcible Spoon]

54. well, with some of these frats...

being part of the brotherhood is certainly an ideology, and hateful things are done to strengthen those bonds. Even some of the more mellow frats go around saying things like "bros before hos" and are really sexist and insecure. I know, I've dated a few of tehse troglodytes!

[CTLawGuy]

59. most frats don't bother you unless you get involved with them

I think most frats are stupid and destructive and Im glad I was not in one, but I doubt that most have a political agenda which they are trying to advance by committing violent crimes.

[Runcible Spoon]

62. maybe not political but certainly ideological.

ask my friend who was date raped because pledges had to get laid within a certain time period in order to make the cut. Of course this particular frat won't tell you that's 'official' policy but they lost their charter for good over a string of similar events.

[CTLawGuy]

66. well, i wouldn't have made it into THAT frat

thats for sure....

any organization can be corrupt and produce harm to society.

I'm glad they lost their charter.

[Runcible Spoon]

35. there's a difference between terrorizing citizens

and damaging corrupt, greedy businesses/corporations. I would defend ALF/ELF for the latter but not the former.

[CTLawGuy]

41. the death penalty kills hardened criminals

are you for that too?

[Runcible Spoon]

48. where the hell are you pulling that analogy from?

Sorry if I see a fundamental difference between human life and material property. I tend to value the former greatly over the latter.

[CTLawGuy]

51. you are saying that its ok to cause harm to someone or their property

if they are morally repugnant, but its not ok if they are upstanding citizens.

that's the same logic behind the death penalty.

[Runcible Spoon]

55. I said corrupt corporations/businesses, NOT individuals.

there is a difference. And I don't say "OK", I say "understandable" but not "justifiable" so I'll refine my stance to that. Just as you pointed out above, killing a lover/etc in heat of passion is a lesser crime than shooting a black person bc of racism: one is "understandable", the other is repugnant, though neither is justified.

[CTLawGuy]

60. ok, I can agree with that

targeting a corrupt corp. is understandable, however it is not justifiable. and it is also not smart tactics for what you are trying to accomplish. The court of public opinion is always watching and you don't want to tar your cause in their eyes.

[Runcible Spoon]

64. agreed.

I'm happy this exchange ended amicably. I'll think about PMing you later; perhaps it will be therapeutic. Now speaking of therapy, I have a happy hour to get to! :toast:

[CTLawGuy]

69. wish I could join you, but I must save my drinking for tonight.

:)

[frankly_fedup2]

57. So that is what Rove and Bush did to us on 9/11. Now it makes since why.

Keep them terrorized and they will follow you off a cliff.

[sui generis]

12. not defending ELF

but they're going after PETA and Sierra Club too. Sorry, if that's the case then I'm a terrorist. Lots and lots of people are terrorists.

[mainegreen]

16. Part of the logic behind these actions is...

that the corporations and developers who are at the brunt end of these actions usually have engaged in their own underhanded and illegal activities to get their way. Putting a Kerry sign in your yard and having your house burned down is different than say wiping voters names of a registration list and then having your house burned down.

If these groups don't play fair, they shouldn't complain when they get what they deserve.

Its Karmic, if you ask me.

[CTLawGuy]

30. should we sink to their level?

the death penalty operates on the same logic...

"its ok to kill people if they've killed others, because they are getting what they deserve."

Please, we are better than that, that's why we are liberals.

[Zhade]

49. So, you would have been against the Boston Tea Party?

After all, that was "property distruction with a political motive".

Granted, no life was threatened (except perhaps the fish).

[CTLawGuy]

63. hehe touche

in a strict legal sense, what they did was a crime, and if it were my tea I'd be pissed. i think there were better ways to protest the tea taxes, even if having the boston tea party felt good.

Also, they dressed up as native americans to try to pin it on them. Do you condone that?

[Zhade]

68. Heck no, since that was shifting the blame to my ancestors!

Never liked that bit.

Yeah, you're right that it was a crime, but I can't help but admire it anyway. I do think there is a big difference, since no one was threatened with harm.

[CTLawGuy]

70. I guess you're right

in that simple dumping isn't the same as blowing up or burning. Still there were probably better ways to protest the tea taxes, though less satisfying.

[Nordmadr]

2. Same topic here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3685870



My post from another discussion on this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3685870&mesg_id=3686219



Olaf

[katsy]

10. Olaf... that was a great summary!

You should repost it here for people to read.

:yourock:

[Nordmadr]

11. Thanks! ...and as requested, my original post on this issue:

...and so begins the full scale application of the Patriot Act and terrorism laws against American Citizens. ELF and ALF now, Sierra Club and Greenpeace will be sure to follow. Then what? Then who? Where does it stop? Pagans, democrats, muslims, anyone that opposed anything this administration wants to do? Anyone that fights fascism and fights for truth and opennesss in government? How about virtually everyone on this board. Am I a terrorist for reading "The Monkey Wrench Gang"? Or for being a dues paying member of the Sierra Club?

Less than $200 million in damages in the last 15 years. Hell the U.S. military does that every day in Iraq, killing thousands of innocents in the last few years. Are our uniformed men and women terrorists? While I would argue no, you could also easily debate the other side of the issue. Torturing and murdering in some cases, desecrating holy symbols, destroying public institutions, in what could very easily be argued as an illegal war. Now I do not say that this is the majority of our military members. The overwhelming majority are just trying to do their job so they can get home, if they have a home to return to that is. While the vast majority of members in groups such as ELF and ALF support the ideals of the groups, I would also argue that most of them have never actually participated in any of these activities. Ohhh...but they funded them. Well as a taxpayer, I have funded the illegal war in Iraq, better come take me away to the dock of the bay...Guantanamo that is.

How many people have died from their activities? That would be a big fat fucking ZERO. Now I do not condone the actions by these groups, nor am I a member, but I certainly sympathise with their beliefs in many ways. While they may be arsonists and vandals, are they really terrorists?

Burning SUV's is now apparently equivalent to assassinations done by al Qaeda or other "religous extremists". Where are our own religous extremists on this list? Any mention of abortion clinic bombings where people HAVE died? KKK? Murderers, yup, didn't hear about them other than to say that there attacks have been declining. Could that be bacause they have gained a little traction with the ideologues in government? Hmmm....

Please explain how a minority group makes its cause known when the government turns a total blind eye and when environmental laws are rolled back; when misleading names such as "Clear Skies" are fluffed out to the public? When our pristine forests will be opened up for logging? When forests are logged under the guise of bettering the health of the forest? When habitat is destroyed for inconsequential supplies of oil that will make no impact, well except to perhaps supply the military a bit more as it smacks down the iron fist on the unsuspecting American Citizen. This country fights to expand freedom? Are you fucking kidding me.

Olaf

[Double T]

5. This Is The Most Idiotic, Bizarre, Weird Statement I Have Heard......

.....from this desperate Administration. They have confused terrorism with vandalism; spray painting the sides of a vehicle is vandalism, NOT
terrorism. The Bush Administration is NOW attempting to label Animal Rights Activists and Environmentalists as "Terrorists". They will do ANYTHING to create an "enemy" or "foe" of the state.

[KansDem]

8. Yeah, but lying to get the US military to invade a sovereign nation

and kill 100,000+ of its citizens for its natural resources is not terrorism?

ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence--preemptive invasion based on lies; "F*ck Saddam, we're taking him out"

by a person or an organized group--George W. Bush and the PNACers/GOP

the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments--Iraq, Iraqis, Saddam's government

often for ideological or political reasons--??? Does "kick his ass and grab his gas" count?

Hey, George, you can't bring peace and democracy with 2,000lb Daisey Cutters...

[ArkDem]

9. I believe you can get a permit to hunt these groups in

Arkansas.

[sui generis]

13. well and they want to hunt Sierra Club and PETA too

I believe the hunters should watch their backs and wear bright clothing.

[ArkDem]

18. My money would be on the hunters. They actually know what

they are doing in the wild. The Alf members would have seperation anxiety from getting too far away from the trust funds mommy and daddy set up for them.:rofl:

[sui generis]

21. eh?

I'm talking about Sierra Club, you're still on ALF and ELF. You've missed the point. My money is on me. Your mouf shore does look purdy.

[ArkDem]

22. The Seirra Club doesn't do anything except throw big parties

for themselves and pay there executive too much money. They are CORPORATE.

[sui generis]

23. gosh you've convinced me to stop giving money

to all environmental organizations. They're all trust fund partiers. Who knew.

I've got to go run out and kill me a spotted owl, I'll be right back, unless I run into a feral wolf or a whale.

:sarcasm:

[livinginphotographs]

25. Ignore him.

He stalks the animal rights threads and offers absolutely nothing but pithy comments.

Some of them are able to stay just below the radar...

[livinginphotographs]

71. Sierra Club.

Also, "their" executive(s).

[ArkDem]

72. My bad

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3692799#3693440

[livinginphotographs]

74. Yeah I caught that.

Your troll is showing. :eyes:

[Runcible Spoon]

39. yeah and on fair ground in the wild Arkansas hunters would have

separation anxiety from their cheap beer and crappy Walmart shotguns :eyes:

[Nordmadr]

14. Anyone know the Canadian Anthem?...I think I need to learn it. NT

[livinginphotographs]

17. ELF and ALF are terrorists

because they hurt Bush contributors' bottom lines (pharmaceutical companies performing cruel and useless tests on animals, the big-business food industry who can't be bothered to worry about the welfare of their animals, large developers who orgasm at the thought of razing a forest to make a subdivision then name the streets after the trees they cut down).

[ArkDem]

20. Not terrorists just petty criminals and jerks.

[KansDem]

19. Quick, Animal Activists, mail anthrax letter to prominent Democrats

...and left-leaning news services.

The FBI would soon forget about you...

Really! It's been done and it works! :)

[livinginphotographs]

24. Or just fly an airplane into some buildings.

The guy that did that a few years ago seems to be of little concern when you compare what he did to those ELF monsters......the horrrrroorrrrrr!!!!..... torching a Hummer.

[Nordmadr]

27. Kick! N/T

[kwolf68]

33. No ELF and ALF

The ELA and ALF are doing more to destroy their own movement than those who oppose it.

How can we win people over to our side when the only thing we do is burn shit down and terrorize people?

I know 99% of all animal-rights and environmental activists are awesome people who are doing everything right, but any slip-up by our side and the media will be there to jump on it. Just as ELF or ALF gets more and more pub for their shenanigans then the donations to credible animal rights and enviro organizations will go down.

I hate the way animals are treated in this world....It makes me sick and I am so cautious in my own life to protect animals, but we have a winning issue here, one that people will sign up for if we don't screw ourselves in the process.

I can't see how ELF and ALF don't see that they are doing NOTHING good. They burn down houses made with old growth? Guess what? They just rebuild the fu***** houses with MORE old growth wood? Release animals from scientific labs? Guess what? These animals are replaced...the wheels WONT EVER STOP. I don't care what you do.

The only way to stop what ELF and ALF is railing against is at the onset. Decrease the demand for fur coats, advertise the horrors of animal testing, saving habitat for nature, etc., etc....We can win this battle...we advance the more humane and compassionate viewpoint, but we can't show that amidst burning luxury homes and vandalized furriers.

[CTLawGuy]

42. ELF and ALF

give Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity fodder with which to tar ALL of us and discredit the environmental movement.

We are not criminals, we are activists. We should therefore not act like criminals.

[kwolf68]

47. Exactly

And the problem is animal-rights issues NEVER make it to the news. I can remember no expose’ by the media on the practices of factory farming, furriers, or animal testing. No mention of the millions of gallons of toxins spilled in Prudhoe Bay since drilling began there. You don’t ever hear the media tell us about the MORALITY of protecting an entire ecosystem that we are destroying for greed, selfishness, and convenience.

But the very 2nd something out of whack happens with ELF, ALF, or even Greenpeace or PETA here comes the news media with the right-wing propaganda hustlers in tow. Of course, they don’t want to talk about the impetus for these groups, what IS IT that causes them to act like this. Nope…all we are lead to believe is ANYONE who cares about the environment or animals is a terrorist, leftwing, communist who wants to kill people, destroy your possessions and over-throw the American way of life.

The strokes they make with their brush are strong and deep. No environmental organization will be immune, except for “Greenwashing” groups who will surface to “take over” the animal-rights and environmental movements by saying we need fewer wetlands, fewer animals, more strip malls, no recycling, etc….because “that is” good for the environment.

The way animals are treated in this world is inexplicable, but look how we treat the poor? The sick. The indigent. The different?

I have dedicated my life, more or less, to nature. It’s what brings peace to my heart in this sick, fucked up world. I’d rather work at saving every small little tract of land I can, provide scientific advice on the genetic makeup of populations, and basically stay off these front lines that are currently occupied by PETA, ELF, and a host of other (credible) groups, but there are those of us out here who LOVE animals, who can’t drive past any road kill without a little touch of sadness that CRINGE every time these organizations decide to go on one of their rampages.

[Runcible Spoon]

45. OK THAT argument I will buy.

I do not agree with the way that they go about things but I will NOT broadbrush them as the most dangerous terrorists in this country, ESPECIALLY after fucking Terry Nichols copped a deal to spare him the death penalty (DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT SUPPORT the DP, BUT if any domestic terrorist deserved it, it was Nichols!). All that said it makes me sad thinking that more environmental harm is created than prevented by ELF but I do get a twisted sense of smug satisfaction when I hear about a Hummer dealership getting smashed up. (I don't like the burning, though). I am not proud of this feeling, but I'm being honest here.

[kwolf68]

53. We are a bit different

You are right. Why is there no outrage about militas who will go to work to “overthrow the government” the minute the next Democrat is elected to the White House? 168 men, women, and kids were murdered for a right-wing cause in Oklahoma City. Point blank, ANTI-Government rage (which fuels Conservatism) is what fueled Oklahoma City. It can’t be disputed.

This I agree. However, we are Liberals, those people (in PETA and other groups) are Liberals and I hate to say it, but in this society we have to be doing it cleaner than the other guy.

I hate hummers myself. But what would give me satisfaction is not the destruction of them on a car lot, but the collecting of dust on the car lot. What makes me feel good is when I see “SUV sales on the down”…THAT’S what I want to see, because its an apolitical attack. Liberals can’t be blamed for it. It just happens. The rejection of right-wing greed, exploitation, and materialism is what gives me pleasure. Not the confrontation of that greed.

You are right, the amount of environmental harm being perpetrated by industry, greedy bastards, corporations, poachers, developers, REPUBLICANS, and others is insurmountable and it doesn’t find its way into a 30-second blurb on the news. Meanwhile, ELF antics will not only get coverage, but will have entire shows focused on them.

The media is the biggest problem we have going on today.

[Runcible Spoon]

58. agreed. the media is a travesty.

and I get nice healthy righteous satisfaction from dusty Hummers in the lots too. :evilgrin:

[kwolf68]

61. I don't know about where you live...but

I work in Northern Virginia and drive either on I-66 or Route 7 quite often and I see these Hummers all the time.

They are certain monstrosities and I told my wife that if we ever met someone who owned one I would not care to become friends with that person. She thought I was being a bit narrow-minded, but I have no respect for people who own them, outside of using it for tactical military purposes.

They not only are destructive vehicles in the weight causing road problems, not only are they exploitative in that they are vehicles that consider oil an infinite resource, but they place other HUMAN BEINGS at great risk. Imagine having a wreck with another vehicle and that car is a “Hummer”? The more of these pieces of shit we put on the road the more people we will bury, the more people who will end up in wheel chairs because you don’t stand a fighting chance if you have a wreck with one.

[Runcible Spoon]

67. amen. and while I personally could never destroy one

and my acts of vandalism were limited to nasty note leaving and the removal of a couple despicable hateful bumper stickers (the latter which I felt kinda guilty about), I still take the time to give the ole H2 Salute! www.fuh2.com

[Q]

73. Have they ever caught the Anthrax Killer(s)?

You would think that THIS would be a priority since it's a CRIME that has never been solved. What about the many militias stockpiling explosives and chemical warfare agents?