Barney Frank rips Dean for saying DeLay belongs in jail

[quaoar]

Sorry, Barney, but DeLay is a criminal and definitely belongs in jail.

The Boston Globe

Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Party, said yesterday that the US House majority leader, Tom DeLay, ”ought to go back to Houston where he can serve his jail sentence,” referring to allegations of unethical conduct against the Republican leader.

Dean’s remark, in a speech to Massachusetts Democrats at their party convention, drew an immediate rebuke from US Representative Barney Frank, the Newton Democrat and one of DeLay’s harshest critics. ”That’s just wrong,” Frank said in an interview on the convention floor. ”I think Howard Dean was out of line talking about DeLay. The man has not been indicted. I don’t like him, I disagree with some of what he does, but I don’t think you, in a political speech, talk about a man as a criminal or his jail sentence.”

DeLay faces accusations he may have violated House rules by taking foreign trips paid for by lobbyists. In a separate case, a Texas grand jury indicted three fund-raisers with ties to DeLay on accusations of campaign-finance irregularities.

Dean, the former Vermont governor, lost his bid for the White House after a much-criticized speech.

[bemildred]

1. Screw Barney. On second thought, let's just ignore him. nt

[aquart]

15. Good cop, bad cop. Go Barney.

We aren't in lockstep and may we never be. We have open discussion and disagreement. And we are free to hold those divergent opinions. Barney did right to insist on abiding by our constitution. That's why we want him in his job.

Dean did right to say what we're all thinking. That's why we want. him in his job.

[bemildred]

41. I would be more inclined to take Barney at face value here ...

If he was similarly assiduous in defending the Constitution
in various other situations where he is silent. I would wager
you that if you looked under the hood you would find that
DeLay and Barney are best buddies, "esteeemed colleagues", and
like that.

[Mass]

43. Well. his vote record this year is very good

NOt sure what you want to reproach to him on that.

And he did not vote for the Schiavo Bill or for Real Id.

[bemildred]

48. Hey, so you like him, good for you.

"Very good" is an opinion, and mine is different.

[Mass]

50. I was just asking what you dont like

and you do not answer.

[bemildred]

76. Yeah, I did, you just didn't like the answer. nt

[Mass]

91. No, you did not\nt

[bemildred]

111. Yes, I did too.

:banghead:

[TayTay]

67. Like when Barney Frank took to the floor to denounce him

Barney Frank led the floor fight against Tom Delay and his unconstitutional interference in the Terry Schiavo case in March. Rep Frank is a liberal voice in the US House against Delay and the Republican agenda of interference in personal family and sexual matters.

Rep Frank is also a great voice for the poor and politically unconnected in America. He was one of the 12 members of the Massachusetts Congressional delegation who voted against the recent Bankruptcy Bill. (Massachusetts was the only state that had every congressional delegate vote against his awful bill.)

Maybe you should research the record before you go making blanket accusations that are ludicrous and stupid. Barney Frank is not the enemy because he thinks Gov. Dean went too far in a political speech. Barney Frank is one of the bright lights in the Democratic Party because he goes the distance to help America fright for rights and liberties for all the people.

BTW, I was at that MA Convention and heard the speech. Gov. Dean did an excellent job. That said, it was injudicious of him to convict Tom Delay of crimes in advance. Gov Dean's language needs some fine-tuning. That does not mean I want to smear him or wish him ill. On the contrary, he must succeed in his mission of recharging the grassroots. I can disagree with the man without thinking he is anything but well-meaning in his intent.

[bemildred]

113. Mr. Frank is repeating the "loose cannon" canard against Mr. Dean.

This whole issue is a fabrication; Mr. Dean's opinion has no
more legal standing than mine, and I think DeLay ought to be
in jail too, and both I and Mr. Dean are free to say that.

Barney is of course entitled to his opinion, but that's all it
is and I disagree. I think Barney is primarily about Barney,
and he should STFU.

[jaysunb]

139. Well Said !

:toast:

[bemildred]

141. Hi Jaysun.

:hi:

[jaysunb]

152. Howdy !

check your e-mail... :hi:

[Eliot Spitzer 2006]

177. Barney Frank is right

Dean went too far and everything Frank said about Dean's statement is correct - DeLay has not been indicted. I admire Barney Frank for taking a principled, rather than a partisan, stand on this.

[bemildred]

179. I sort of figured that was why they picked Barney to spout this drivel.

Because it might have more credibility coming from him instead of
one of the more well known right-wing mouthpieces.

Barney is a card-carrying member of the Washington establishment,
and Dean is therefore his mortal enemy, because Dean wants to rebuild
the Dems as a grass-roots progressive party, and that will be the end
of Barney and his cronies in the beltway.

[neuvocat]

187. No, Dean is. Delay belongs in jail.

Besides, where in the hell was Frank anyway when Terry McAuliff was rolling the party over and getting the dems in the shit they're in now?

[sallyseven]

143. That is bull shit. I know Barney He

just thinks you don't hang a person unless he is convicted. Do not let hearsay convict a person. When DeLay is convicted Barney will be the first to denounce him.

[bemildred]

155. Please see post #113.

Barney is a political hack.

[spooky3]

150. I agree.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

170. Nobody heard about Dean's remarks...

until Barney took him to task for it. Regardless of his true intentions, the result was that the entire country got to hear that Delay should be serving jail time when the story might otherwise have slipped under the radar.

[GreenPartyVoter]

176. Intriguing. Glad Dean's words are getting some air time.

[silverweb]

2. Dean has never been one to mince words...

...or pull his punches.

Not always politically prudent, but always honest.

Just one of the reasons I love him.

[senseandsensibility]

3. Great

I can see Frank's point of course, but why criticize Dean publicly? The things that DeLay has said about our side make that look tame.

[ariesgem]

122. That's my beef against our elected Dems...

WHY can't they iron out differences in private and publically stand firm? :mad:

[senseandsensibility]

125. Absolutely.

They seem to have no idea how to use teamwork.;(

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

7. Why do freepers make themselves so obvious?

At least learn how to spell before you come here to disrupt, douchebag.

[NYCGirl]

13. LOL! So true. NT

[wtmusic]

14. touchy touchy...W ain't working out as planned?

see ya :hi:

[SeveneightyWhoa]

16. Huh? W?

Give him a break, he's obviously a Democrat!

Just look at the name! ;) ..a Deaniac is definitely no fan of Bush.

[wtmusic]

18. Sorry, I was going to apologize to him, but

suddenly he's...gone :D

[SeveneightyWhoa]

22. Damn! My mistake!

I shouldn't have "snitched" on him.. I didn't realize he was one of us!

[stickdog]

68. LOL. Love your sig graphic! (nt)

[Cha]

5. Dean, Dean, Dean..

I love ya, baby..there ya go again being politically incorrect!

[wtmusic]

11. or maybe *he's* PC

and it's just those crooks on the other side of the aisle!

[w13rd0]

6. It's ok Barney.

You are wrong on this. Speaking of Delay as a criminal should become as second nature to Democrats as DeLay speaking of Democrats as communists and "godless heathens". Why pull punches with these vile hypocritical crooks? Go Dean!

[aquart]

19. Becoming like Republican fascists is NOT my goal.

Why is it yours?

[ldf]

102. it's the TRUTH.

shouldn't truth be our goal? in our case we have the truth. all we have to do is speak it. but we don't.

they just spout endless lies. they never stop.

that is why they are winning, they are willing to lie non-stop, and we are unwilling to speak the truth.

that is the difference between democratic politicians and republican politicians.

GO DEAN!!! :loveya:

[Eloriel]

138. Not only is it the truth, tho somewhat hyperbolic and/or figurative,

Dean can say it whereas Congresspeople couldn't get away with it. For that reason alone Barney should leave him alone, IMO. There's something to be said for allowing those who can criticize more "injudiciously" to do so. It tends to soften up the target for others, and even the more judicious criticisms bear more weight and heft in those cases.

I usually adore Barney, but I'm disappointed this time. Of course, he may have been just talking. I can hear him just blathering on more from a legal perspective, perhaps, and less intending criticism of Dean than discussing the legal merits of the remarks.

[ElectroPrincess]

168. It's also OK "mislead Democrats"

Perhaps it's all in THE GAME. I can now envision both Barney and Howie sitting down over a few beers laughing their asses off at how GULLIBLE their loyal *sheeple* democratic followers are. We're so damn forgiving - time to cease with that flaw.

IMO they're all potential criminals ... *we* must keep them honest.

Wake up - the The Democratic Party is NOT just Republican Lite, they're playing on the *same team* as the Republicans, i.e.,for the benefit of the wealthy and multi-national corporations.

If you honestly believe all this in-fighting is just a slip of the tongue, you're as mislead as the Right Wing Freepers.

Bottom Line: They're all dirty. It's wholly up to *WE THE PEOPLE* demand that OUR smarmy politicians serve OUR best interests.

[Fridays Child]

8. Link? And btw, Barney, you're in error, here, not Howard.

[Skip Intro]

9. "...lost his bid for the White House after a much-criticized speech."

what fucking bullshit. The whole "scream" thing was a media crafted attack on a man who threatened them. Had NOTHING to do with the content of what he said, or the circumstances in which he said it. It was a viscious attack on a leader of the people by a US media that needs to be taken down a few notches.

BF has a right to say what he thinks, but so does Howard Dean. And, yet again, DEAN is right!

[KittyWampus]

42. It Had Everything To Do With The Circumstances Of That Speech

Dean gave a freaking pep rally when he should have done a dignified Conscession Speech.

You don't tell dirty jokes while toasting the bride at a wedding.
You don't air dirty laundry while memorializing at a funeral.

You don't do a freaking pep rally at a Concession Speech.

I fully support Chairman Dean but can't stand how so many people refuse to accept that Dean's demeanor during that speech in Iowa was totally inappropriate.

[Skip Intro]

45. Concession Speech - ???

After the first primary?

It was a speech to those who worked their asses off for him in Iowa. It was a pep rally. There was nothing wrong with his speech.

Its called PASSION.

The whole debacle was media created, and it couldn't have been more obvious. And the part of that speech that got replayed and replayed - the "scream" - was like watching Rove-tv. It was a media attack that had nothing to do with anything - it was a fucking scream. A passionate, we're going on from here full throttle, scream. Who knows where we'd be had the media, or their masters, not decided to off (politically, for 04) Dean.

Dianne Sawyer even ADMITTED faulty coverage of the speech. He was yelling because of the acoustics in the room and the size of the crowd.

What was shown over and over was an inaccurate portrayal of what really happened.

edit: corrected spelling

[KittyWampus]

146. Yes, Conceeding Iowa, The Way ALL Other Primary Candidates Do

when they LOSE a Primary.

Why is that every other Primary Candidate EXCEPT Dean was able to give a dignified speech that fit into conventional form.

[Cha]

46. Too bad you can't stand it..

It doesn't change how we feel about it..at all.

[KittyWampus]

149. Too Bad You're Still Unable To Accept The Fact Dean Screwed Up.

it's really a shame.

[Cha]

186. What I accept is that you

will be continuously harping on it from now until fucking doomsday.

[lyonn]

59. There is a least one tape out there

that shows how Dean in Iowa was trying to speak over the screaming fans. Why the tape from only his mic was played over and over and the other was neatly tucked away. It makes a big difference when you can barely hear Dean over the crowd.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

97. Completely misinformed post.

Anyone familiar with the circumstances, supporter or not, realizes that it was literally a high-tech lynching.


Slowly, now:

The...audio...was...fucked...with.

That's all one needs to know.

[KittyWampus]

148. Completely Denial Laden Post- Audio Had NOTHING To Do With It

It had everything to do with Dean's inappropriate behavior.

AGain, you don't give a rally speech to a bunch of supporters when you're conceeding in front of the Nation while running for a National office.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

182. I think the point is is that

he wasn't conceding.

Show me the rule book on caucus etiquette.

Pretty please!

[mzmolly]

142. He wasn't dropping out though?

It was the first battle, he was trying to "rally" the so called troops.

:hi:

[KittyWampus]

147. That Was The Absolute WRONG Venue To "Rally HIS Troops".

it was the venue in which Dean SHOULD have been addressing THE NATION many of whose members were seeing Dean in action for the first time.

[mzmolly]

175. Seeing Dean for the "first" time? Were his speech thought eloquent,

none of us would have seen it. The only reason it got air time was because the media blew it out of proportion. Did you ever see the dateline expose on what Dean REALLY sounded like? It was much ado about nothing, but it served it's purpose ... "take.down.Dean."


http://www.winningbackamerica.com/weblog/2004/01/abc_news_oops_a.html

"The Dean Scream: The version of reality that we didn't see on TV"

Video here:

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wabc_2004vote_012904dean.html

[truth2power]

98. Thank you, Skip, for picking up on

yet more Orwell-speak. "much criticized speech" kinda grated on my nerves, too. More drek from the CM (that's "corporate media"). I wish people would stop calling it "mainstream".

[Dr. Mullion Blasto]

10. Typical remark by a dumb dem attacking our leader. I used to like Barney

but I just don't understand him anymore. He could be one of our greatest spokesmen but instead he attacks one of his own. Dems like that we don't need.

[aquart]

17. Excuse me?

Fascist lockstep is what we don't need here or anywhere else.

[Dr. Mullion Blasto]

24. Your "lockstep" is my "cohesive message" especially in this time

when the Democrats are so weakened by losing all the key elections lately, or haven't you noticed?

[aquart]

65. I notice we sat still to be robbed.

That's what I noticed.

I'm not interested in voting for robots. You want that, go Republican.

[Sydnie]

28. Barney Frank is not a "dumb dem"

Barney has to watch his back. He knows they are out numbered on the Hill. To be effective, he has to parse his words and wait for the right moment to lower the boom.

He hasn't stayed as long as he has by being ineffectual. We in MA know that vey well.

[Radical Activist]

63. Barney Frank is more of a leader than Dean will ever be.

He has guts and principles that don't change for the next election. I guess you forgot about all the time Dean spent attacking other Democrats during the primary, but you seem to think we need him anyway.

[Cha]

127. I don't know much about barney

but I know Dean is the leader I want for the Democratic Party ..and I know you always have venomous words for Dean.

[lojasmo]

172. I certainly won't forget how much time YOU spent.

attacking democrats during the primary...and since.

[Hard_Work]

180. Huh? Attacking other Dems?

I seem to remember Dean having to DEFEND himself against attacks from all sides, not so much attacking...

[ashling]

12. dissapointed

Dean, the former Vermont governor, lost his bid for the White House after a much-criticized speech.

I am dissappointed in Barney, but also at the way this story is written. OK, so I haven't read the full story yet - only what was posted (no link). What was the point, in the article, of the above statement? We are to conclude . . . what, exactly?

:puke:

[noamnety]

23. yep, bad journalism

the only point of that comment being inserted was to echo RW talking points which have no basis in fact. Character assassination/smear masquerading as journalism.

[ashling]

66. my point exactly

:)

[quaoar]

25. The Globe hasn't posted this version on their website yet

They moved the short version in the post above over the wires.

Dean's remarks are in this story:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/05/14/state_democrats_formally_endorse_gay_marriage/

[quaoar]

87. Here's the link

But it requires registration:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/05/15/dean_rips_delay_at_convention/

[Larkspur]

20. Delay belongs in jail or at least in a mental ward for violent psychopaths

Barney Frank is the kind of Dem leader that I'd never support. He makes a mountain out of a mole hill when it comes to Dems and makes mole hills out of mountains when it comes to Repukes. The Repukes say far worse things than Dean ever has.

Why can't Barney concentrate on getting rebuking Repukes? Oh, that's right. Barney supported John Kerry for the Dem Prez nomination because he thought that Kerry would win, and he would be able to get a promotion by running for Kerry's senate seat. Barney must be fuming that Kerry screwed up, not only the Prez bid but also Barney's chance at promotion within the Dem Party Washington Beltway fiefdom.

And of course, Dean as DNC chair is another sign of Kerry's impotence within the national Dem Party. Dean was not Kerry's choice for DNC Chair. Vilsack was. Barney's attack on Dean tonight was Barney throwing a political temper tantrum at his frustration for being stuck where he is on the Dem political hierarchy.

Delay isn't the only one with ethical problems. Barney's might be milder, but he's definitely got underriding reasons for slamming Dean's rightful bashing of Delay.

[sendero]

193. I second that..

.... once again, Repugs use hyperbolic speech against us on a DAILY BASIS, and when we fight back WE'RE THE ONES WHO ARE WRONG?

BULLSHIT

I generally like Mr. Frank but he's wrong, wrong, and wrong on this one - and it makes me wonder why. He's not one to be shy about speaking his own mind.

[cestpaspossible]

21. This is why DNC chair is the perfect place for Dean.

Frank is looking at it as a member of Congress. Such a statement might have been out of line for a member of Congress. But no for the DNC chair. Barney, I love you, please take your head out of your ass.

[Dr. Mullion Blasto]

26. Excellent point and he was way out of line for chiding his Party Chairman.

Shut up Barney!

[Maccagirl]

27. I echo that-shut up, Barney!

Tom DeLay deserves no quarter from us.

[demwing]

29. I've had no use for Barney since he dissed Al Gore

When it was still unknown whether Gore would run in 2004.

That was cold, and it pissed me of something fierce. Barney Frank does not represent my interests.

[Cha]

31. Refresh me..what did he say?

That was so long ago..I remember being on pins and needles wondering if Gore was going to run or not.

I felt like I had been socked in the pit of my stomach when he said ..he wasn't.

About a half an hour later I started looking at Dean. I believe that was at the end of 2003.

[demwing]

60. Frank said that Bush was more popular

that Gore was wounded, and if he ran he would lose.

This was back in December 2002,Kerry was obviously going to run, and Frank was behind Kerry.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A32361-2002Dec9¬Found=true

It didn't come off like Frank was concerned about the party, or that he cared much about Gore, just that he should step aside and let Kerry run.

Within a few months time Kerry was urging us to stop crying in our teacups about the election theft, telling Dems to get over it.

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/07/10_kerry.html

Those two events are stuck together in my mind. The whole thing stunk. Frank's words were repeated ad nauseum by the repukes, and -- of course -- Gore did not run.

I think it was shitty. If Frank wanted to say that to Gore in private, fine. But not in public. It was rude and manipulative, and Gore deserved better.

[janx]

105. I never knew any of that!

Wow. I had no idea.

[Cha]

128. Whoa! Dissing my guy lilke!

I do remember some shyte like that..doesn't sound like he's changed his act at all!

Gore would have made a great President but of course the US had to get bushit DUMPED ON THEM!

Thanks, demwing! :patriot:

Edit~That's putting barney's comments more into context!

[Larkspur]

196. Frank didn't want Gore to run because he hoped that kerry would

win the nomination and the WH so that he could run for Kerry's senate seat. Frank is only concerned about his own political ambitions.

[autorank]

123. I never had any use for him since he had a young prostitute shacked up

with him, back in the day. Don't care that it was a male prostitute, just that he had such incredible judgement. He'll never get off the hook for that one and, as such, he's an ineffective spokesman, not one who can go to the mat for us.

[Mass]

30. Could it be that Frank was reminding this basic principle of law

that you are considered innocent until proven guilty (or at least indicted).

We have media who now condemn people without trial (see the different criminal stories). We dont need politicians doing the same thing. It was easy for Dean to say the same thing without using these terms, and let be clear, this is going to make the media for a few more days, and they will be able to avoid talking about the real problems.

[Cha]

32. Well, it was nice of barney

to lamblast Dean for it, then.

And kenny boy lay still isn't in jail.

[Mass]

33. It is amazing how Dean's supporters cant accept one criticism

of their hero.

Sorry, I agree with Frank on that one (assuming that the BG is correct, and I am never quite sure of that), and he has never be known to hide what he thinks.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

34. that's a broad generalization

It's funny how it reminds me of Bush. You know he says we're are fighting "evil" and etc. Paints a broad brush like how you do.

[Mass]

37. Should have said some, of course

but this witch hunt is so tiring that you sometimes forget.

But frankly, this article is typical from the interviews from the BG. Get one sentence without context from an interview and make a polemical article.

[Cha]

44. Well, neither is Dean..

"known to hide what he thinks".

That can be said about the supporters of anybody..but I don't happen to think Dean is perfect. But I like that he says what he thinks.

I guess he thinks delay belongs in jail. What a shock!

[AntiCoup2K4]

55. DeLay IS a criminal, and his ass should be in jail

So what's wrong with saying so? Why hasn't Barney said so? Someone in the House needs to stand up to that fucking piece of shit. I don't think they can do much to Barney at this point. If he survived a male prostitute scandal, they probably don't have anything else on him.

[Mass]

56. I am not sure what Frank intended to do

but I dont see what Dean is winning here, except allowing the Republicans to change the subject once more in the media for a few days, while Frist will start to destroy the filibuster. He could speak about Delay w/o using these words.

In addition, I am tired of people who change their opinion of somebody every time they say something they do not like. Frank is a solid Democrat and what he said does not change that.

[sendero]

194. It's amazing...

... that when anyone disses Kerry around here they are engaging in "circular firing squad" tactics but when a congressman calls Dean out for doing what THE FUCKING REPUBLICANS DO EVERY GOD DAMNED DAY, then suddenly that's just ok.

Here's a fucking clue for you, not that you'll "get it". The reason Dems are losing their asses is because they won't stand up and say the kinds of things Repugs will.

When people who don't have the time or won't take the time to listen to what is realy going on hear the Repugs say the nutcake shit they say - they believe a lot of it because it is said with passion and conviction. Dems retort with hand-wringing, nuanced tutu bullshit and the media tunes it out and so do the voters.

I fully understand your point about the law, the FUCKING LAW HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, this is a war of words and the timid will NEVER FUCKING WIN. Ask John Kerry.

[CTLawGuy]

198. great post!

circular-firing-squad = WAAAH! Don't attack my candidate, he served in Vietnam after all...

[cestpaspossible]

178. Dean is speaking in the court of public opinion, not a court of law.

[killbotfactory]

35. HAHAHA

I love Dean.

[shance]

36. How bout that good ole Dem loyalty from Barney Frank! Applause everyone.

With Dems like Barney Frank, someone tell me, who needs Republicans?

Here is a prime Grade A example of precisely WHAT continues to prevent our party from succeeding over the extremist faction that is dismantling our Democracy and our nation and our world.

Knock yourself out Barney.

Keep enabling those abusers in the name of Democracy.

[zulchzulu]

38. As much as I agree with Barney...he should shut up about it

Yes, Howard made a comment that will be forever misconstrued by the Usual Suspects ad nauseum. Dean could have said it "smoother"...but actually he made his point.

I also understand Barney Frank's view that at this time when DeLay is about to be ousted that perhaps the DNC Chair should just do his job and fundraise (and not give any ammunition to the Usual Suspects to change the subject), Barney would have bettered served the message by NOT commenting on Dean's speech.

Dean's rant probably worked well toward gets funds for the Democrats. Barney, let these stay under the radar...drawing attention to some of Howard's more fiery statements only makes matters worse.

[Mass]

39. He was probably asked the question by the BG.

This article is so typical of them. They have spent last week trying to say that MA Dems are divided.

[LuPeRcALiO]

118. good point about the Globe

is that the paper that supports Romney and makes a point of "breaking" the latest tittle-tattle against Kennedy and Kerry?

Not saying they're not doing their job, just that it's a good idea to consider the source.

[candy331]

40. Criminals are not criminals because they get caught and go to jail

they are criminals because they have done criminal acts. Tom has committed criminal acts and whether he goes to jail remains to be seen. Not all criminals go to jail but that does not make them any less a criminal. Surely like Dean one can wish that those who commit criminal acts wind up in jail/other punishment as deemed by law.

[bvar22]

47. WOW! Never really thought of Barney as "Establishment Dem".

I know Dean is rocking the boats of the Establishment "Old Boy"Insider" Democrats.
I just never thought Barney Frank had joined the RICH WHITE MENS CLUB!

[FreedomAngel82]

49. The basic truth is

DeLay is a criminal and Dean is right. Screw Frank.

[Pepperbelly]

51. Remind me again ...

what is it exactly that Delay has done that should land him in prison?

Besides his being an asshole in general and specifically.

[quaoar]

52. Two of his aides intervened in Saipan politics

to get a certain person elected Speaker of the House. The new speaker then promptly reinstated a lucrative consulting contract for Jack Abramoff that had been canceled. That's called selling influence.

[Pepperbelly]

53. There seems to be ...

a bit of a jump between the facts you described and the conclusion you reached. Are there any other facts that actually implicate Delay himself?

[quaoar]

192. If you don't see a crime here, there's something wrong with you

This is from the LA Times:

SAIPAN, Northern Mariana Islands — Two former top aides of House Majority Leader Tom DeLay's brokered a political deal here five years ago that helped land island government contracts worth $1.6 million for a Washington lobbyist now the target of a federal corruption probe.

Using promises of U.S. tax dollars as bartering chips, Edwin A. Buckham and Michael Scanlon traveled to these remote Pacific islands in late 1999 to convince two local legislators to switch their votes for speaker of the territory's 18-member House of Representatives. They succeeded.

Once in office, the new speaker pressed the governor of the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands to reinstate an expired lobbying pact with Jack Abramoff, now under grand jury and congressional investigation.

Within months of the visit, Abramoff's law firm had a contract paying $100,000 a month from the Marianas government. Also, the island districts of the legislators who switched sides soon won federal budget benefits from Congress, apparently supported by DeLay

[shance]

57. You're kidding right??

PB sometimes I have to wonder what you are doing here.

If you can't figure out what Tom Delay has done, then honestly, what planet have you been residing upon?

[Pepperbelly]

73. Wonder away, bud ...

I am merely pointing out something that is apparently lost on you.

[Cha]

58. Here's something way back in Oct on npr..

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4106938

And this one is from cnn on delay's family being on his payroll.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/04/06/delay.reponse/

[Pepperbelly]

74. Everyone here seems to be missing the point ...

and don't really seem to take seriously our nation's legal principles. The rat-bastard IS innocent until proven guility and just because associates may be charged for something, it doesn't follow that all associates are guilty.

[tsuki]

129. Treason. Calling for retalition on judges that do not

conform to the NeoCon agenda.

[chocolateeater]

174. The DA in Texas

is also looking at DeLay for accepting corporate money to fund his PAC, which is illegal in TX.

[unkachuck]

54. why did ya have to say that....

....Barney?....can't we just throw a 'rock' once in a while without someone helping the other side?....since when are repugs civil?....since when do they play by the 'rules'?

[okieinpain]

61. thi just proves hat it's more yhan just repugs that are afraid of

dean

[Catherine Vincent]

62. Howard Dean.

He really should have been nominated. Don't get me wrong, I love Kerry and he is great. But Dean is just awesome.

[WildEyedLiberal]

64. Hahahah I see Barney, once a DU hero, is now in the doghouse

People here are as predictable as clockwork.

[stickdog]

69. And hypocritical. You bemoan DU's "circular firing squad" while

defending Frank for firing a few rounds at Dean for attacking a corrupt Repuke.

[WildEyedLiberal]

145. Hahaha

He thought Dean's comments were out of line. So what? Is criticism not allowed of Most Holy Howard, DNC Chair? Is he exempt from your "critcize Democrats" clause? I don't think Howard Dean is a bad guy. But apparently Barney Frank is horrible because he dared say something less than positive about His Holiness Howard Dean, which I find disgusting. If people would stop acting like any criticism, legit or no, of Dean is a vicious attack, then I'd stop accusing you of a circular firing squad. Jeez.

[stickdog]

159. You miss the point. Dean was criticized for correctly hammering Repukes.

Dean fired at Delay. Frank fired at Dean. What was that about circular firing squads, again?

[WildEyedLiberal]

160. Well, from what I understood

It was about Dean saying Delay should "go to jail." Barney Frank was just saying that it's not really appropriate to talk about jail before charges have even been filed. Should Delay be indicted? Absolutely. But is he currently? No, and that was Frank's point, and it just sounds dumb to talk about carting him off to jail now.

What Dean said was goofy, and there are lots better ways to criticize Delay hard than making a comment about him going to "jail." Barney Frank has been one of Delay's harshest critics, and so if he thinks that's an inappropriate thing to say - well, it's not like he's some DINO trying to placate the RW.

What Dean said was dumb. I get his gist, but he needs to avoid saying dumb stuff like that. You can hit hard without putting your foot in your mouth.

[stickdog]

161. The remark may have been ill-advised.

The circular salvo was moreso.

[WildEyedLiberal]

162. See, I just don't think calling Frank's remark a "circular salvo" is fair

The only mass piling on I see here is against Frank, which is out of line. His criticism had a valid point, because Dean's comment was rash.

[stickdog]

167. So your definition of circular firing squad is what?

Any criticism EXCEPT Dems beating up on Dems for beating up on Repukes?

[WildEyedLiberal]

181. Are you not understanding any of this?

You acknowledged that Dean's comment was ill-advised. Barney Frank merely expressed his opinion thus. Therefore, everyone attacks FRANK for DARING to express his belief that maybe Dean said something dumb. It's just an example of being willing to dump on a good liberal Democrat because OMG, he said something that wasn't 100% positive about Dean.

If he'd given a whole speech trashing Dean, then the outrage would be justified. But he didn't. He said Dean made a dumb comment - which was true. So this whole "OMG SCREW BARNEY FRANK!!!1" business is really, really pitiful. If you don't see that "cicular firing squad" applies to the massive pile-on on Frank and not to his random criticism of Dean's dumb comment, then I really don't know what to tell you.

[stickdog]

183. I understand perfectly. You think it's just dandy for a Dems to hammer

Dems for hammering Repukes.

On the other hand, it's horrific for Dems to hammer Dems for hammering Dems for hammering Repukes.

Makes perfect sense if you're a perfect hypocrite.

[WildEyedLiberal]

188. You didn't understand a word, then.

And the only hypocrisy I see is you. Circular firing squads suck if they're trained on Dean, but perfectly okay directed at Frank or anyone else. Oh well, I quit taking you seriously after your insipid "Skull and Bones" bullshit from another thread, so it's no big loss. I'm putting you on ignore now, so respond all you like, but I certainly won't be checking up on it. I've wasted enough time with someone who won't see anything but their own blind idol worship.

[stickdog]

189. Wrong. One circular firing squad mattered. It was reported to the public.

This "circular firing squad" wasn't reported and hence doesn't matter. It's just a bunch of good Dems on a good Dem message board blowing of a little steam at a good Dem for hammering a good Dem for hammering an evil Repuke.

Dean's remark was perhaps a too frank attack of an evil Repuke. Franks' subsequent statement was an ill-advised and destructive criticism of a well-known leader of his own party -- you know, the good guys.

[ElectroPrincess]

165. No, it's not a "circular firing squad" but a well orchestrated "waltz"

When will you folks realize that we do NOT have a two party system any longer? The vast majority of so called democratic representatives serve their corporate masters every bit as much as the republicans.

The only difference is that they "tap dance" with their words that they genuinely care about the average American. That's the beauty of this lie ... when it comes to action, another democrat attacks the first, therefore NEITHER will be blamed when the republicans get their way ... and *all* the representatives continue to enjoy the perks from multinational organizations.

The sooner we FORCE our democratic representatives to "come across" or risk NOT being re-elected, the sooner we will enjoy a TRUE representative government.

[dsc]

70. I am a big Dean supporter but Frank is right on this

Remember Dean once made the same type of point about Osama Bin Laden that Frank is making about Delay. It reeks of hypocrisy. The only criticism that I would have of Frank is that he should have gone to Dean not the Globe, but I suspect Frank was asked a question and gave an honest answer.

[LizW]

75. I think that's a stretch, dsc

We were (supposedly) trying to execute Osama bin Laden without trial. Dean spoke against that. With regard to DeLay, he's merely saying that the guy has committed crimes and should serve jail time for them. He's not talking about denying any legal rights to DeLay, he's saying that justice should be done.

And you're right, I'll bet Franks was asked a question and he answered and this whole thing is being blown out of proportion.

[Pepperbelly]

77. It is Delay, not Frist

and what exact violations are you sure he has committed?

[LizW]

79. Oops, you're right (shouldn't post before coffee)

Is it legal for a congressman to take a trip and have it charged to a lobbyist's credit card?

[Pepperbelly]

81. maybe ...

is jail time part of the statute?

[LizW]

89. Oh, Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch

Are you serious?

"Maybe" it's illegal?

Never mind.

[Pepperbelly]

90. so you don't know?

I confess that I do not know if it is punishable by jailtime. I suspect that you don't know either or else you would have said so.

[digno dave]

157. Dean, unfortunately, doesn't know when to shut up

He is in the wrong business if he wants to run a Party's Committee. His crassness wears thin and serves no purpose in the lon run.

[dorktv]

164. this is where I agree...Frank can have his opinion and lord knows

we Dems never seem to agree on anything as a whole but could Frank keep the critizing behind closed doors?! We need to stop tearing each apart in front of the press.

[bklyncowgirl]

71. Does anyone have a link to the full article?

I went to the Boston Globe website to read it and judge for myself but I couldn't find the story.

Since this is pretty incendiary stuff involving two rather popular Democrats, I'd like to see the original story in context.

[quaoar]

88. Here's the link

But it requires registration:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/05/15/dean_rips_delay_at_convention/

[Tom Rinaldo]

72. I generally admire both Franks and Dean

Nothing either one of them said changes that. I fully understand Dean's rhetorical point. I agree with Frank's legal/moral point also. Not sure why Frank bothered to make the statement but who knows who may have cornered him on it. Dean spoke more or less on Frank's turf and Frank is a major DeLay critic. I am not going to second guess any of this. It will blow over. No one is perfect. They are good Dems.

[MockSwede]

83. Franks and Dean?

Freudian food slip. Beans and Franks? Dean's Franks is a local brand of hot dog here.

Nothing better that dean's hot dogs and homemade baked beans.

They naturally go together on a Saturday night. With a bottle of beer.

Good suppah for a Mainah.

Now, how about chewing on the Repukes, instead?!

[Tom Rinaldo]

96. lol,. Yup. The pugs are much better to chew on n/t

[Jacobin]

78. Dr. Dean is my voice

[reality based]

80. "Some would say"

that having to go back to Houston in the summertime is in effect a jail sentence. Dean was engaging in a little political hyperbole that is perfectly justifiable given the attention Delay is getting from the Travis County DA. The chances that he would ever have to serve a day may be problematic given the DA's spotty track record in obtaining felony convictions (the big fish seem to get away or plead guilty to misdemeanors). We trust, however, that, with all the national attention the DA is being very thorough and careful, this time

[orpupilofnature57]

82. Barney knows how things work, Dean does not obviously.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

84. your post oozes with eliteness nt

[orpupilofnature57]

93. I'm sorry, I'm not. Dean gets more credence than he deserves, pro-

aggressive approach rubs me the wrong way, still no excuse for blanket statements, I apologize.

[wyldwolf]

85. I'm torn

On the one hand, we have to be "in your face" partisans and very blunt when dealing with the GOP. We've got to play dirty, plant seeds, and influence the minds of the electorate the same way the Republicans have been doing for years.

Dean was doing just that.

On the other hand, Frank sounds as though he is defending DeLay by criticizing Dean even though the article does state he is "one of DeLay’s harshest critics." The spirit of what Frank said is true but perhaps he could have said it differently, like this:

"There is strong evidence to support belief the DeLay has been involved in ethics violations and criminal activity. Delay hasn't been indicted yet but I believe Dean was looking forward to the day that those activities are proven and layed out for the American people to see as I'm sure they will."

[ProudToBeLiberal]

86. I agree nt

[Cha]

126. I know ..he could get his point across

without ragging on a fellow Dem.

[Pepperbelly]

92. I grow weary of the tendency here in ...

convicting public persons before any charge filed or any evidence presented. I refuse to abandon the presumption of innocence just because I don't like someone. I defended my favorites against that very sort of lazy thinking and no, paying lip service to the presumption is just as bad as abandoning it altogether.

For one to insist on the presumption for their favorite pols while abandoning it for their enemies is hypocritical.

[quaoar]

94. Plenty of evidence has been presented

Just not in a court. And DeLay has responded -- weakly -- to the charges not by refuting the allegations, but by claiming he is a victim of a vicious liberal attack.

I understand what you are saying, but the standards that apply in the criminal justice system do not apply in a political debate.

[Pepperbelly]

95. they do to me ...

presumption is presumption and no matter how I despise the puffed-up, strutting fascist, I will not presume guilt just because members of my own party appear to have so little respect for the concept when it is inconvenient for them.

[quaoar]

100. You don't want to call DeLay a criminal

But you are willing to call him a fascist?

[Pepperbelly]

101. fascist ...

is a political judgement where there is no presumption of innocence.

If you want the presumption, you have to be willing to grant the presumption to others, even when it is inconvenient. To do otherwise is so ... Republican.

[quaoar]

108. Crime has a number of meanings

Not all of which involve courts and legal standards.

Main Entry: crime
Pronunciation: 'krIm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin crimen accusation, reproach, crime; probably akin to Latin cernere to sift, determine
1 : an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law; especially : a gross violation of law
2 : a grave offense especially against morality
3 : criminal activity -- efforts to fight crime
4 : something reprehensible, foolish, or disgraceful -- it's a crime to waste good food.

[Pepperbelly]

110. fallacious point although no doubt well-intentioned ...

The issue was whether Delay should be serving a jail sentence. That was the intemperate part of Dr. Dean's comments. I also realize that he was cracking a joke. I also suspect that the quotation from Barney Frank was a result mostly of the Globe writers stirring up a "let's you and him fight" moment, as they so often do.

Dr. Dean made an intemperate remark in a joke. No big deal. We all do from time to time. And the Globe could not wait to manufacture a conflict where there was none.

And my fellow DUers were just as quick to go for it. Very disappointing.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

104. Are you saying hitler is innocent?

If so that is absurd. Just because Hitler didn't get tried at the Nuremburgs doesn't mean he isn't a criminal. I'm sorry if you think that Hitler isn't a Criminal then well your ideas are on the fringe. Sorry I will not support your idealogy of thought that put criminals on a pedestal.

[Pepperbelly]

106. what a bizarre way of looking at presumption...

Do you not believe in presumption of innocence?

I believe that the first mention of Hitler was yours.

So riddle me this: who then gets presumption of innocence?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

107. You're the one who implied that criminals are innocent until a trial

I mean that's like saying someone who confessed to a crime, but just because he didn't get a trial he's not a "criminal." I mean there's being criminal in the legal sense and being a criminal not from the legal sense. Just because the crusaders didn't get tried for raping woman doesn't mean that they aren't criminals. I will not stand by your ideaologies. Advocating that rapist are not criminals is a dangerous path. I say NO.

The people who get the presumtuous of innocense are people who deserve the presumtuous of innocence and not criminals.

[Pepperbelly]

109. I do not think that your understanding of the concept is perfect.

Our entire legal system is based upon this one concept ... specifically that a citizen is innocent of any crime until he has been convicted. Otherwise, all there can be is tyranny. Can you not envision that someone might think YOU guilty of something and that in order for you to be punished, it should be proved in a court of law?

Do you want to be jailed over popular opinion?

Your position is unsupportable IF one believes in due process of law. If one does not believe in due process of law, then they ae my enemy because that is what creates civilization and I favor civilization over the law of the jungle. It BEGINS when you accord the same rights to all people and not just those you have chosen to dislike. Perhaps your government teacher should have spent just a little bit of time on the basic ideas that developed into the modern industrial democracies. Locke, Hume, Montesque, the Magna Carta, William of Orange, not to mention our own founders and the notions they espoused.

The case of Hitler is historical. There will be no charges filed against him because he is dead. The only to judge him is historically. That is also the case with Stalin. And many other villans you could cite.

But if a person may actually be tried for a crime, he gets the presumption. And no, that person does not belong in jail until he or she is convicted.

Even Tom Delay.

Dr. Dean's remark was intemperate. It isn't the end of the world nor the end of Dr. Dean. He was intemperate in a remark he made. As I am from time to time. As you, from what I can tell, also can make. It doesn't mean he's a bad person nor that you or I are bad people But Frank does not deserve scorn for his remarks.

Tom Delay is my enemy. That does not make him a criminal.

It wouldn't surprise me if he, in fact, does deserve incarceration and I will watch the matter carefully to see. But at this point, I don't know that and neither do you or Dr. Dean.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

114. You're wrong about "law" is what makes civilization

If I remember my Lockean Theory correctly it was actually private property, so your whole idea of law=civilization is moot. It's interesting that you picked only certain philosophers. How about Hobbes? or Rousseau? or John Stuart Mill?

You didn't answer my questions. Do you think Hitler is a Criminal. Do you think rapist like crusaders, bandits are criminals? Do you believe Child molesters (those who haven't had trials) are criminals? Give me a straight answer man.

[Pepperbelly]

115. I already ...

did if you read what I wrote and I do not want to plow the same ground again and again. You can read back as well as I could c & p my position on Hitler and other historical figures.

But since you have adopted such a prosecutorial tone, riddle me this: how would you determine who should be tried for crimes rather than just summarily sentenced?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

116. Wait you believe Hitler is a hero WTF

Damn, I'm sure your idea is on the fringe. And don't give me crap that the founding fathers would think Hitler would be a Hero. If I ever have childrens don't go near them, I don't want a person who advocate rape to be near them. I advocate in Due Process. I believe criminals should go to jail and be tried. You on the other hand don't believe in the Bill of Rights. Our inalienable rights cannot be taken away from us.

I believe criminals should be tried. Like rapist, child molesters, murderers, but it seems you don't.

[Pepperbelly]

117. You do not get to make up positions for me ...

and i said none of those things. As a matter of fact, what you are attempting is deeply dishonest. I am responsible for what I have written. I am not responsible for either your hallucinations, fabrications, or deception. If you cannot discuss matters rationally, then you will quickly become a pariah on this board.

Now, if you do not intend to refute what I write, you will kindly FUCKING refrain from pretending that I said anything about Hitler as a hero, advocated rape or child moslestation, or any of the other falsehoods you have attached to my name, then I have no desire to discuss anything with you in the future.

Life is too short for me to have my character besmirched for saying Dr. Dean made an intemperate remark.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

120. I would like to thank you for playing devils advocate.

I knew you weren't advocating child rape and arguing that Hitler isn't a criminal. You were just playing Devils Advocate. Sorry man I didn't know that you were just debating for fun. lol. I guess I was being ridiculous I mean who would advocate that hitler is a hero? Of course you wouldn't you were playing devils Advocate.

Yeah I agree with you that Barney Franks went too far. on the other hand I know where Barney Frank is coming from in the legal sense. and I know where Dean is coming from in the rhetorical sense as the DNC chairman. I mean I can understand where your loyalty is coming from, but I believe in the Constitution. Innocent until proven guilty. Of course loyalty counts for something. In this case though I'd say civil liberties triumphs over loyalty, though I know where your coming from. Nice debating you.

P.S. Next time we debate please refrain from being so attacktive and aggressive. You're almost scaring me...I mean using the word "FUCKING" I was like damn dawg.
;)

[Pepperbelly]

121. ok ...

:D

btw, "Devil's Advocate" could well be my middle name if it wasn't already "Patrick".

:evilgrin:

[MADem]

99. You guys need to remember a bit of HISTORY to understand Barney

Barney got in a SHITLOAD of trouble years ago, with a boyfriend who was also a hooker, and who was working out of Barney's HOUSE. He had ethics issues too, in his flaming youth, as it were.

Barney survived, simply because Barney is a smart and exceptionally effective legislator.

So, Barney has been on the House Ethics Hotseat, has been the recipient of "piling on," and he thinks the best way to go about this is to let nature take its course. Which it will...

He has a right to his opinion, as does Dean.

[janx]

103. Does anyone else here remember YESTERDAY?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1782317

Dean is damned if he doesn't and damned if he does, apparently.

[berni_mccoy]

112. Too long have the dems played like boyscouts

Against a bunch of criminal thugs. It's time we called them out and made them pay the price.

Bravo for Dean. He knows what the party needs in order to become the force it once was. Barney needs to wake up and get with the program or get out of politics. Things are about to get really ugly.

[htuttle]

119. LOL! Come 'on people -- I think this is a play fight

What Franks is saying about Delay is, "Gosh, I don't think we can say Delay should be in jail, since he hasn't been indicted YET." That moves the discussion from whether Delay did something wrong, to whether he should be behind bars yet or not. It's part of reframing the issue.

Imagine Franks said something like, "I think Mr. Dean's being unfair to say that Tom Delay eats babies for fun. It's well known that Delay only eats SOME babies, and ONLY when he's really hungry."

I think it's possible that Barney Franks was just keeping the 'news ball' in play for another day on Tom Delay's lack of ethics.

I could be wrong, of course. If Joe Lieberman or Zell Miller said the same thing, I'd probably interpret it differently.

[orpupilofnature57]

124. exactly ,,context !! p.s. I pay homage to "Blade Runner"

[XemaSab]

130. Barney Frank sucks

[XemaSab]

131. No, Howard Dean sucks!

[XemaSab]

132. No, Frank sucks!

[XemaSab]

133. No, YOU suck!

[XemaSab]

134. You suck more!

[XemaSab]

135. You suck harder and longer!

[XemaSab]

136. Now, seriously

regardless of whether it was appropriate for Dean to tell it like it is, or whether it was appropriate of Frank to criticize Dean, thereby firing another round in the circular firing squad, by fighting over this, aren't we in effect turning a molehill into another Mount Doom for the party?

[orpupilofnature57]

137. it's symptomatic, of our wide span,as opposed to the single cell ameba's

Could you see how Barney Frank and Howard Dean could clash?And why, theres the biscuit.

[XemaSab]

173. It's fine to disagree

but I personally don't think Frank should have said that what Dean said was inappropriate, because that makes the republicans think that there are people in the "Democrat party" who think Dean's a wingnut.

I think Frank's cool, I think Dean's *way* cool, and it disappoints me to see them squabbling, and it disappoints me more to see people on DU squabbling over them sqabbling, like we don't have real issues to squabble about.

[LittleClarkie]

185. Oh yeah? Well you SWALLOW!

Sorry. Had to.

[XemaSab]

195. Blatant omissions on my part

thanks for stepping in to straighten me out.... I dunno where my brain was.

:-)

[Guaranteed]

140. Sorry, Barney, but after everything Delay said about us Democrats

and Dean, this is the LEAST of what he deserves.

You're not helping. Please be quiet.

[drduffy]

144. I understand the issue of 'due process' but I'm tired

of being 'civil' towards republicans. And, for that matter, towards evangelical fundamentalist cr*t*ns like Dobson, Fallwell and Robertson (may they rot in their hell). As many have already said, they call us everything in the book. Much of the crap they say indicates they believe they are fighting a war against us. And as far as I am concerned, if it is war they want, it's war they will get. And, ultimately, may they go to their damn heaven in the sky and leave the rest of us in peace.

[realFedUp]

151. Dean is right

in the real world, DeLay would be persona non Grata.
We are putting up with a very low bar and tone due
to the shrub's crimes, lies and immoralities.

[jaysunb]

153. You tell em !

:hi:

[realFedUp]

154. hey there my friend....

:-)

[gulfcoastliberal]

156. Frank is a wimp. He ought to be ignored - for party loyalty's sake

So what about party unity? What about dems notgoing after dems? It's always attacked here when we criticize our reps for not doing the right thing, but silent when said reps to this to each other, often excused as "diversity". The diversity should be discussed in private rather than a press release.

[orleans]

158. and who asked barney to comment or share his negative opinion?

unless he was specifically asked what he thought about dean blasting delay maybe barney should have kept his opinion about dean to himself--at least for now, considering all the shit we've been through and keep taking from the repugs.

besides, who does barney have the bigger problem with? dean or delay? and if it's dean then that is definitely a problem.

[JNelson6563]

163. It's a thing with Congress-critters

They stick together no matter what. It's a rather sickening thing.

Julie

[bklyncowgirl]

166. The Repukes want to investigate the Dems--Oh Oh

Anyone want to bet that the ethics of every single Democrat in Congres ethics will stand up under the microscope.

I doubt if there's anything on the level of Tom Delay's scandals but that's probably more do to a lack of opportunity than any overwhelming amount of honesty on their part.

Personally I'd say throw all the corrupt bums out regardless of party but that hasn't happened in over 200 years of this nation's existance and it ain't gonna happen now.

Like Mark Twain said "America has no inherent criminal class except for Congress."

[ChiciB1]

169. I Can't DISS Either One Of Them!

Dean has been vilified here at DU for not doing ENOUGH, then when he does hit hard, he gets jumped.

Barney Frank is a Democrat through and through and has fought many battles for us. I respect and like him a lot.

Perhaps it was a "bit" out of line for Dean to indict DeLay, but then again lets' think about all the CRAP that the Repukes have pulled and all the Lies THEY have perpetrated upon the American people.

Maybe this is just fighting fire with fire! Making NICE hasn't gotten us anywhere and we are going to have to take the bully pulpit sometime. Yes, they will call foul, but you know what? I don't care much anymore! America is going to hell in a hand-basket and we had better stand up and do some hollering!

DeLay is a miserable example of the piety he proclaims to abide by. A real snake if there ever was one! And when he finds himself in hot water, The EEEIIIIIdiot comes to his rescue and "toasts" him! This has GOT to STOP!!

[ElectroPrincess]

171. Nah, I disrespect BOTH of them ...

I'm as liberal as they come. Unfortunately people here still prescribe to "idol worship."

They are BOTH playing US (liberals and moderates) for fools. They'll both shrug their shoulders and take their under the table pay-offs.

We the people lose by not DEMANDING that they get their act together.

Besides the in-fighting don't forget the ever repeating Biden Maneuver?

Posture, posture posture! But at decision point - ruefully relent. <rinse and repeat for the dumbed down masses>

[demwing]

184. OK, prove your assertion

Don't just talk, back it up.

I doubt you'll even try.

[CWebster]

197. Take a look at some of the "I wuv Kerry" threads lately nt

[fujiyama]

190. I didn't know about Dean's comment

and I've never been much of a Deaniac, but I must say, I'm close to becoming one after his comment. That is fucking AWESOME.

Dean is right, even though it may be seen as a stretch by the whoring media and the worthless body known as the House of RepreHENSIBLES. Frank can try to downplay DeLay's corruption (DeLay is responsible for some of the worst ethical problems commited in the House in many years) but ultimately it's a matter of public record at this point.

DeLay should rot in prison. A miserable, worthless, lowlife, maggot...No rodent he exterminated is nearly a big a shit as he is.

[CWebster]

191. Every once in awhile

Frank shoots off his mouth like a overbred terrier.

Remember the time he told Gore to get out of the way to make room for Kerry.

[demwing]

199. Yep. See my post #29 for links

As they say in Joisy "I got no more use for dat guy..."