Is * hitting the bottle again? Experienced opinions wanted!

[ginnyinWI]

I don't have any direct personal experience with alcoholics, but have heard that they can drink a lot and nobody knows. Surely some of you DUers do know the signs. Do you see anything that would show he's relapsed?

If so, that would mean that others are running the show, right? I don't mean this to be gossipy; I really get concerned, when it's up to him to, say, talk to the heads of other countries like Saudi Arabia!

[CO Liberal]

1. I Don't Think He Ever Stopped

[ralps]

2. I also don't think he ever stopped. I never considered him a recovering

alcoholic.:shrug: :hi: :loveya: :hug: :pals:

[FreedomAngel82]

10. Me either

Knowing this guy it's all just a show for his religious base for his finding Jesus (like he ever found him :eyes: ).

[ginnyinWI]

16. well I do think it was real for a while

but it wore off--first he wanted God so he could get off of drinking, then it was a good political strategy after that.

Then he realized that as long as he was outwardly Christian, that was good enough for politics. And I think he does still see himself as one,in a way, but he doesn't realize how warped and twisted his faith has become--he's made it over in his own image. He imagines God is speaking, when it is actually his own desires.

This happens when you get "out of fellowship" (don't spend time listening to and being challenged by other believers) and get a distorted view of God and yourself.

I always remember how the Pope feared that * was the Anti-Christ!

[leesa]

37. Nah. It was political from the beginning. Everything he does is politics

Marrying Laura was politics. Training to con the Fundies was politics. He is a cynical psychopath.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. It's very possible.

Depends on what kind of drunk he is and what shape he is in. I have seen drunks get plowed off of two beers, but they were pretty far along. I have seen other drunks drink a bottle of voddy and you woould never know.

I had a girlfriend who used to tend bar in a place called "Quo Vadis", in Pittsburgh. A metal door off of a parking garage in the financial district. All there was on the door was a Roman Helmet painted in white. All they poured was Vodka. Nothing else in the house. Financial bigs, and I mean really big, would come down on lunch hour and pound 4-5 Olympic-sized voddy martinis, go back to work, guiding the country's financial future.

This really happened. She showed me the place.

There are probably more maintenance drunks in the halls of power than we could imagine. The human animal is very adaptable.

[DanCa]

4. Hmmmm interesting.

Well today his speech was slurred and he kept missing words when he was on cnn. Hmmm maybe that's why he's in church so much he's there for the wine. I know he can't be going for the sermons.

[Meeker Morgan]

23. Alcoholic, Hell yes.

But I think he has his dry spells through will power.

He seemed sober during both campaigns, and during most press conferences. Maybe the Missus rides herd on him.

But I think he's hitting the bottle real hard now. Notice him showing up with bruises on his face. Falling down drunk is not a metaphor.

You didn't ask, but I'm a recovering alcoholic going the AA route. It's the only way. Dry for nearly five years now, one day at a time.

Easy does it.

[calimary]

26. Maybe that's why he bugs out to Crawford so often - to dry out.

I don't have a lot of experience with alcoholics (for which I'm very grateful!) but just knowing this guy's - what would you call it - pathology? Just knowing the kind of bullshit artist he is, and how he's gamed the system and skated by on as little heavy lifting as possible, and the mindset he has that - merely because of who he is, who his family is, and who he knows, he can get away with ANYTHING, I wouldn't be surprised. Not a bit. These people tend to start getting a little too arrogant after awhile, because the other bottle they guzzle from relentlessly is the "I'm all-powerful - nobody can touch me!" vintage. And sooner or later, as with all benders, it exacts a price.

Besides, watching him is like watching Bob Novak - the slurred speech and mangling of words is just almost too much to bear, and makes me feel certain somebody just had a few (too many).

[smirkymonkey]

44. I'm with you - short of a miracle, W doesn't have the personal

strength to stay off the bottle, particularly in times of stress. Without a strong program -which he doesn't have - someone like him has almost a zero chance of staying sober.

"He is constitutionally incapable of being honest with himself." Congrats on your 5 years! :thumbsup:

[Meeker Morgan]

49. The catchphrase "being in denial" ...

... originated with AA.

[Love Bug]

52. Congratulations on your sobriety!

[spooky3]

57. reminds me of something Johnny Depp once said

(paraphrasing)

hanging out with a drunk is good training for having a two year old--you have to pick them up when they fall down, clean them up, help them on their way...

[Warpy]

5. Prognosis for his personality type without treatment

and follow up in AA is not good, no matter how much they say they love Jesus.

I have a suspicion he is drinking on the sly. The deterioration in his neurological condition would point to continued drinking.

[ginnyinWI]

6. Is jumbling up words part of an alcoholic behavior?

Or is that just him? I know it's not a "dumb act" anymore, since the campaign season is over and he'd have no need to do it.

[rodeodance]

39. I have read he has a form of dyslexia but Barbara did want to admit

it -so he never got the needed help when he was younger. This would/could explain the jumbling of words. People are helped this health problem if they seek help.
But many are ashamed and will not seek therapy.

[Love Bug]

53. He didn't use to jumble his words

Watch any video of him speaking 10 years ago and it's apparent his aphasia has gotten worse over time. I think he has a neurological disorder. Maybe he has fits or something that would explain the bruises on his face.

Could be drink, too, who knows?

[DawnneOBTS]

7. That would explain...

The whole "splash day" thing.

[tallahasseedem]

8. If he isnt...

why in the hell is his face always jacked up?

[TwentyFive]

9. Was he drunk on 9-11? Why else would continue to read My Pet Goat?

I think * is one of those "low & slow" type drunks that keeps a flask in his pocket. He starts early, and takes nips all day long.

These types of guys are always a bit drunk, but never so trashed that they can't stand up straight.

[leesa]

38. Why? Because he wanted the attacks to be completed.

He was in on it.

[pk_du]

11. If there was ever any doubt...then the day this happened it all

ended for any non-Bushista.

Take your pick...( pretzel my ass)

[ragin_acadian]

14. thanks for the pics!

the broken blood vessels in his nose on the third pic - pretty much answers the question.

so, any speculation on what he drinks?

[pk_du]

18. I think these guys nailed it.....

[ragin_acadian]

20. hmm. that makes sense.

i was figuring him as a sunny D/vodka type alky, but they are probably right: jack daniels is the best adhesive when trying to re-coat an eastern blue-blood with a down home cowboy veneer.

[EC]

12. My late husband was an alcoholic

and yes he died of his decease. Bush looks and sounds to me like he has been back on the bottle for a while. He's got the gait and the dead eyes.

[ginnyinWI]

15. thank you

Yeah that's the kind of clues I was looking for--dead eyes I see for sure, and his gait--stuff like that will be telling.

Also, sometimes he seems all fired up, and then sometimes really subdued. Talking slow, and saying "ahh..." a lot.

[rodeodance]

40. he has an 'ape' walk. He just does-no offense to him--others have it also

I do not know if this is a change from his younger years.

[EC]

48. That's not it,

There is a lean to a walk that my husband's doctor said was common in alcoholics, it's like their ass is half-sitting while walking (for balance) and the feet kinda just kick forward carrying the leg from the knee, instead of a full stride from the hip. (Like the walker is on automatic pilot) don't know how to describe it.

[northernsoul]

54. thanks for the insight

I'm very sorry to hear about your husband.

[seabeyond]

13. so surprised no direct experience, i on the other hand

have plenty of drunks around me. a whole line in my family.

the glassy eyes are clue in to me, and his slur periodically. yes he has "felt" like he has been drinking in the past

[ginnyinWI]

17. sure I've seen people drunk, but not alcoholics

and they are the ones who can hide it, or need to hide it.

We are so conditioned to * looking and acting dumb, that we are probably not noticing the signs.

[Mist]

19. I grew up in an alcholic family

and have had several friends (and a couple of boyfriends) who were alcholics. FWIW, I think he's a true dry drunk, and medicated to the gills. There are a number of pharmaceuticals called "dry booze," that many alcoholics discover. The speech can mimic the slurred speech of someone who's drinking too much. It seems from *'s drinking history, what we know of it, that he was very heavily alcoholic. His liver's probably shot, and he couldn't risk so much as a couple of beers without it having the effect of 4 or 5 80 proof drinks. So my take is, he's heavily medicated.

[Lexingtonian]

21. Naw

http://www.crazymeds.org/topamax.html

[thecai]

22. His Red Nose

and ruddy cheeks are a clue. Sometimes it shows through his make-up.

[lady lib]

24. Okay, here's my naive question for the night

(and no one's allowed to roll their eyes either). Here goes. :)
How would * get alcohol in the White House without all of the staff knowing about it? It's not like he can drive down to the local liquor store and pick up something. Even if he had an accomplice to get it for him, the staff would still notice the glasses and empty bottles.
Could the slurring and ruddy skin be the result of years of drinking without current use?

[ginnyinWI]

41. oh I'm sure people in the WH know

but they are chosen for their loyalty, not their principles! Same thing with other presidents, by the way. The dirt doesn't come out until later. And from what I understand, he is a real bastard of a boss who used anger and sarcasm to instill fear and obedience in his underlings. It's been documented in a couple of those books that came out about him (Paul O'Neill's and John Dean's).

[Blue Belle]

42. His staff serves at the pleasure of the President.

This is an Administration that demands compliance or no admittance to the crowd at Town Hall Meetings... do you think they're going to let loose lipped staffers in the West Wing? With all the incriminating secrets in this White House, the President's Flask is just the tip of the iceberg. They won't be giving up any information on this or any other oddities (aka Jeff Gannon) anytime soon.

[MADem]

25. I've noticed a couple of things of late

He is increasingly PETULANT and short tempered. His stump speech isn't going over, but he thinks by saying the same things, over and over again, in a quasi-threatening manner, the point will be made.

It may have worked when his Ma was talking to HIM, but it ain't playing well in Peoria.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bunkerbuster1]

30. That's more likely.

I had reviewed the whole "character flaw" issue, whereby his innate laziness and paranoia accounts for much of his behavior.

But it's very possible that the guy simply fried a lot of his brain back in the day, and he has a tough time focusing (I'll say it again) UNLESS HE REALLY HAS TO.

And the guy has built up an organization that ensures he rarely has to focus on much of anything.

[ginnyinWI]

43. whoa

thanks for the info--very interesting!

[dbt]

27. Am I the only DUer who saw bu$h's address on the '03 blackout?

Our boy was fried, tied and laid to the side that night! He wobbled his way out to the podium. His head rolled around like a Weeble. A couple of times, I saw his eyes close and his head tilt back like he was going to pass out. Having been both recipient and giver of such aid too many times, it was clear to me that bu$hler had had to be "sobered up" for an important occasion. They probably had to drag his dumb ass into a cold shower; summa y'all know exactly what I'm talking about!

The timeline of that August evening was also interesting. First, CNN reported that bu$h would NOT address the nation (and that he had been fund-raising in California all day). Then, they said he WOULD, but they could not carry it because of "technical difficulties." THEN, they said he would speak LIVE--and AFTER this sorry spectacle, they reported that the address had been RECORDED.

To this day, I have not seen a video clip from that Presidential Moment. And I submit that that is because the Leader of the Free World was langers (stocious, flutered, legless, whatever you want to call it) on TV!

:beer:

[bunkerbuster1]

29. as someone who actually does feel a kinship with Bush on this...

if anyone cares, I too had a serious drinking problem, had tried to kick it a few times, and then finally in my 30s, when I realized I was tired of lying to myself about the extent of my problem, quit for (far as I can tell, it's been over a decade now for me) good.

So while I detest Bush's politics and personality, I can attest that yes, it is possible to quit without an intervention, without psychological help, even without a genuine religious belief (and I don't think Bush has that, either.) So we should stop harping on that.

FWIW I tend not to think that he's "back on the bottle." I have always seen Bush as a guy who makes what he thinks is the most efficient effort he needs in order to succeed. If he can delegate a job and pass the buck, he will, to an extent that makes Ronnie Raygun look like a take-charge, hands-on kinda guy.

As a result, when he isn't required to focus on specific, difficult tasks, he flounders. He's horribly out of practice answering tough questions, so tonight's press conference will be (predictably) painful, because some of what he'll hear from the Press Corpse won't be total softballs.

Also as a result, he just isn't very well prepared for what he needs to do. He comes off as bumbling and ignorant because... well, that's what he is.

Probably not drunk, though.

(Could be, however.)

[MADem]

31. I think it's old damage from excess past, myself

And I do think he is on medication of some type.

[July]

32. I tend to see it this way, too, but I have reservations.

SOMETHING is wrong with him besides shallowness and low I.Q. (which he's also suffering from).

Your point about Bush's pass-the-buck style as a habit that makes it hard for him to deal with tough situations makes a great deal of sense. He has never had to deal with any heavy lifting, and he's been surrounded for HIS ENTIRE LIFE by help in the form of wealth, powerful friends, and sycophants.

The reason I think he may not be drinking is that past reports of his drunken behavior show a really obnoxious drunk with zero self-control. He's obnoxious now, I'll grant, but most of the time he seems to be following the script, if poorly. I think that if he were drunk, he would have embarrassed himself in much worse ways than we've seen (though we've certainly seen embarrassing moments).

On the other hand, there have been a few occasions when he was pretty out there. Could be drunk, could be medicated.

I am convinced that he has some problem that has both physical and mental effects. The whole delaying of the physical and lack of a detailed report was a red flag. The many bruises and generally shitty physical appearance are two more flags. The way that he talks is less articulate than it was in 2000 -- flag #4. And, although he's never done much work, his schedule these days is flag #5. It seems to be all photo ops and Crawford recovery time. That "60 Stops in 60 Days" tour, which really covered about 15 stops, was, as far as I'm concerned, one long Stay-Out-of-Washington vacation.

[bunkerbuster1]

33. I lean toward the "weird side effects from meds" playing a role.

It can be very subtle and insidious, played out over years. (and mind you, the meds could be to treat some illness we can only speculate about, like his heart?)

When you have a whole staff that's mapping out strategy based on a President's weirdness, bouncing from one crisis to the next, who knows where it will go.

It's a complex, F'dUBAR scenario.

I just doubt it's about a relapse into drinking. Frankly, that's too simple.

[smirkymonkey]

46. The difference is that YOU realized you were lying to yourself.

He will never admit or even question himself in that regard, and that is why I think he is still on the bottle or at least some dry goods.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

51. thanks for sharing bunkerbuster1. I have family who have gotten

sober as well without the help of AA/religion/psych, etc.

Do you think it could possibly be he is a dry drunk? That's been my assumption when I see him.

Addiction, Brain Damage and the President
"Dry Drunk" Syndrome and
George W. Bush

by KATHERINE van WORMER
First, in this essay, we will look at the characteristics of the so-called "dry drunk;" then we will see if they apply to this individual, our president; and then we will review his drinking history for the record. What is the dry drunk syndrome? "Dry drunk" traits consist of:

* Exaggerated self-importance and pomposity
* Grandiose behavior
* A rigid, judgmental outlook
* Impatience
* Childish behavior
* Irresponsible behavior
* Irrational rationalization
* Projection
* Overreaction
http://www.counterpunch.org/wormer1011.html

(When I googled dry drunk, this was the first thing to come up)

[bunkerbuster1]

55. I'd heard the term "dry drunk" prior to 2000, but a lot more about it

since. I don't know how much credence I give to the syndrome, at best it seems an unresolveable chicken or egg question. Does a person display these symptoms as a result of their former addiction, or did they become addicted as a result of these odd behaviors that were there all along?

That said, in my experience I didn't really feel I was behaving all that differently when sober "in recovery" than when I was merely sober between drinking episodes, if at all.

But then I'm good and virtuous and wonderful...

[rockedthevoteinMA]

56. Congrats.

I heard it mentioned at AA meetings... they would say if you didn't attend/ practice the 12 steps, one would fall victim to the "dry drunk". I don't know much about it either, pretty much what's in the article. :)

[rhett o rick]

34. Drunk or not, Dub has never run the show

The leader of this Country is most likely Chaney with Karl as his brain. Dub was just brought in to be a pretty face to elect. Why do you think he vacations so much? The Big boys want him out of their hair. Tom DeLay must also be high on the "control" chain, or he would have been abandoned long ago.
Rhett

[wildwww2]

35. The next question is. What drugs are his supporters on? They must be

high as hell on something. Stupidity just cannot be that rampant.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[susu369]

36. Why does he "retire" at 9:30 in the evenings?

My speculation is that he is a closet drinker and has never given up drinking.

[leftofthedial]

45. never stopped

ever

maybe a couple ofweeks when he got "saved."

[ginnyinWI]

47. on the Frontline bio last fall

they said he was first saved by some small-time preacher in the south, but it didn't seem to "take" very well, because some months later they called none other than Billy Graham to Poppy's house where they staged an intervention and really put the fear of God into him. And Laura was going to leave him if he didn't quit. But yeah, I think a true alcoholic would need a little more treatment than that, and he probably didn't last long. And Laura didn't make good on the promise.

But I also like the theory that he could be substituting meds for alcohol now. Or it could be a (dangerous) combination. And I do believe the defacto president is and has for a long time been Cheney. Evidence what happened on 9/11: Bush nowhere to be found, Cheney at the WH and in charge, and people taking ORDERS directly from Cheney! They were going to shoot down that last plane on his orders, weren't they. It's got to be mostly Cheney and Rove these days. And they're screwing it up badly for the GOP. The chimp's specialty has always been campaigning. Leading, nope.

It's like Alice Through the Looking Glass, with all its crazy cast of characters.

[raccoon]

50. This thread's certainly made me think,

thanks for bringing it up.

[bobthedrummer]

58. I wouldn't doubt that he is on all kinds of drugs, he's a real basket-case

and a tool of Cheney and the neo-conservatives.
I'm a recovering alcoholic, my recovery began June 18, 1981.
He ain't my brother, I don't know what he's doing that isn't costing lives.