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CNN has business analyst on to condemn BP. Says oil companies not gouging

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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 12:22 PM
Original message
CNN has business analyst on to condemn BP. Says oil companies not gouging
and they have a right to make money when the price goes up due to world wide demand or whatever. And further, he made a point of mentioning that folks on the internet think BP does not get any of their oil from the Middle East--which he said was untrue (he mentioned Kuwait as one source).

The segment was titled "OIL PROFITS." Analyst mentioned that BP CEO made $10 million plus last year, but that Exxon-Mobil CEO made even more, but he failed to mention how much more.

Exxon-Mobil made a record profit of $25.3 billion last year on revenue of $298 billion!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4223573.stm

BP profits for 2004 were a mere $16.2 billion.

http://www.energybulletin.net/4307.html

____________________

I would say to this analyst that these record oil companies profits might well be considered "price gouging" by a different president--the retailers are certainly not making anywhere these kind of profits--cause they have to pay a higher price to their suppliers.

Who benefits? Exxon-Mobil, Chevron-Texaco, BP-Amoco and the other big oil companies--or, in other words, Dubya's real base.
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SangamonTaylor Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. how is it price gouging? demand continues to rise and supply is scarce
I remember when oil was almost 10 dollars a barrel (when Asia went into a huge economic downturn). What happened? All of the majors began merging into the supermajors. They secured up what little supply is left.

With China and India beginning to burn up oil faster than ever (and the US demand steadily increasing) we're going to have high oil prices for a while. So...oil companies are going to profit...until there is another downturn in demand...
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SangamonTaylor Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. As far as CEO pay, 10 million is relatively cheap too.
As far as CEO pay, the BP CEO making $10 million is nothing compared to others!

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2003-03-31-ceopay2_x.htm

Jeffrey C. Barbakow
Tenet Healthcare
$22,785 per hour, $116.4 million for 2002
Doesn't include new stock options with potential value of $72.4 million
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orwell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. No Kidding
There is very little "competition" at the CEO/Corporate board level. US corporate and political interests have made sure of that.

While these "golden children" wax euphoric about "private enterprise" and "competition", they are quite happy with the good old boys club that pads their cushy little golden thrones.

Competition is for the "little people", just like taxes.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Defend $10 million CEO salary by pointing out another CEO makes $116 mil?
Priceless!
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SangamonTaylor Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. take a look at the link i provided, 10 million (while its a heavy sum) is:
take a look at the link i provided, 10 million (while its a heavy sum) is below average for CEOs. Especially, given the size of BP, I would say that paying their CEO 10 million is a relative bargain when it comes to CEO compensation.

I don't like it, but for some reason, Wall Street investors seem to approve of those companies that lure the 'top dog' CEOs even if it means paying out significant sums of money. Then there's the (delusional, in my opinion) idea that a company has to one-up other companies with their executive compensation.

If you think CEO compensation has anything to do with price gouging (specifically oil-price gouging) then you should think the same of nearly every other product sold by fortune 500 companies...
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-05 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. The analyst brought up the BP CEO's salary in an effort to criticize him.
I do think all CEO's are obscenely overpaid to the detriment of not only shareholders, but their employees. It is a rigged game, but don't count on the corporate media whores to point it out.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Why is it that microeconomics is only supposed to apply...
when prices go down?

Supply is not increasing with demand, so prices go up.

Doh!

Exxon/Mobil made 25 billion on almost 300 billion in sales.

OK, so they made less than 10% on their gross revenue. Even figuring how they cheated on their cost and revenue numbers, that's still not out of line. Who wouldn't want their business to make at least 10%?

Oil companies suck... OK, that's a given, but when it costs a couple of billion bucks to sink an offshore well, they're supposed to give the stuff away for free?

C'mon, get real. Instead of bitching about the oil companies, start bitching about why we're using all that oil.





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orwell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Except...
The oil market is ruled by a cartel. So the classical notions of supply and demand are useless.

US majors receive highly preferential tax treatments (Depletion allowance, etc.)

They effectively don't seem subject to anti-trust anymore.

They have tremendous political clout, resulting in anti-conservation policies. Witness the rejection of CAFE standard increases.

They receive a huge subsidy from US military spending to protect international assets.

They are allowed tremendous cost shifts (externalities) to the public sector in the form of greater public/private health care spending and pollution cleanup.

10% return after expenses on that level of revenue is tremendous. Many companies would kill for that kind of return.

The energy markets, including oil, are a very poor universe to view with the lens of classical supply and demand. Cartel economic theory is far more appropriate.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Except...
OPEC has had limited success in adjusting crude prices, which are set by exchanges in London, New York, and Rotterdam. They have no interest in sky-high prices anyway, since historically high prices are followed by a crash.

The oil companies themselves are usually running at full capacity in all their operations and have limited ability to adjust prices.

All US companies have preferential tax treatment, if they pay any taxes at all. They all have political clout and anti-trust is pretty much nonexistant any more. And they all pollute and transfer heal;th and other costs as much as they can get away with.

I'm not sure how much the military is protecting Venezuelan, Russian, Indonesian, Nigerian, or Mexican supplies. Or Exxon's Singapore and Carrbbean refineries. The military will be out there anyway, oil or no oil. And many other industries (Boeing, Raytheon, GE, Bath Iron Works...) are supported/subsidized by military spending. Some, such as shipbuilding, exist almost entirely on military spending.

I'll go with the return being a little high for some sectors, but it might be transient because of current oil pricing FIFO/LIFO accounting and other factors.

Note that Verizon just made 1.2 billion on 17 billion revenue in the first quarter:

"Verizon’s operating income margin -- adjusted to exclude special and non-recurring items as well as, for purposes of this calculation, net pension and OPEB expenses of $22 million in the fourth quarter 2003 and $275 million in the current quarter -- rose from 18.3 percent to 20.4 percent over the same period. Consistent with past practice, Verizon believes that excluding these effects enhances comparability and provides a better picture of operating cost management."

And Verizon ain't alone.

I'm not defending the oil companies. I've had a lot of dealings with them in the past and God knows I have no love for them.

But, if someone is going to trash them, trash them where they deserve to be trashed.





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orwell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. A Spade
OPEC has had limited success in adjusting crude prices, which are set by exchanges in London, New York, and Rotterdam. They have no interest in sky-high prices anyway, since historically high prices are followed by a crash.

Still, OPEC is far and away the dominant market participant through supply control on the world stage. There are not many cartels in the world with the price clout that OPEC holds at the margin. It is amusing to claim that speculation on world exchanges does not take into account the major supply cartel underlying the base commodity. Of course it does. That is why OPEC's announcements, whether relevant or not are immediately greeted with price "adjustments" on the commodity exchanges.

As far as high prices being followed by crashes, who cares if you are selling a commodity which is critical to so many phases of global growth? All in all, the cartel distorts competition which will necessarily raise the average level of pricing. Why else have a cartel? They control a dwindling resource for which they will extract maximum return on investment.

The true question is - would average prices be higher or lower without OPEC. I submit lower. Otherwise there would be no need for them to still exist.

The oil companies themselves are usually running at full capacity in all their operations and have limited ability to adjust prices.

Oil companies are essentially valued on reserves. Reserves come from exploration. Exploration budgets are not at "full capacity" from a historical perspective. In fact, I would submit to you that the recent large consolidations among the majors is a sign that exploration budgets will continue to shrink, as they have been for years. In fact it is striking how little the recent record prices have spurned new investment in exploration.

All US companies have preferential tax treatment, if they pay any taxes at all.

Some more than others. Average effective tax rates for corporations have been declining for decades. The oil industry, through many accounting gimmicks, is high on the list tax avoiders along with military suppliers like GE, with full support of a corrupt US Congress and Executive branch.

They all have political clout and anti-trust is pretty much nonexistent any more.

None have as much in the current admin as the energy sector. How many secret meetings did Cheney hold with the computer manufacturers? Or the incredibly powerful pharmaceutical lobby?

As far as anti-trust, I would submit that the original creation/rise of OPEC, which could be argued was at the behest of the US majors, was a very clever way of skirting anti-trust price fixing charges in the early 70's. After all, West Texas crude had to rise to match the new fixed price from OPEC. It was out of their hands.That coupled with Nixon's trashing of Bretton Woods and his elimination of the gold peg, provided the needed fiat cash ammo for the great oil-sham-con stagflation of the 70's.

And they all pollute and transfer heal;th and other costs as much as they can get away with.

This still doesn't address the externalities argument. That this becomes a subsidy that is born by all, regardless of energy use/efficiency. Therefore true cost adjusted demand is not reflected in the unit of energy in the marketplace. Demand is stimulated at the margin due to inefficient pricing not reflecting large externalities.

I'm not sure how much the military is protecting Venezuelan, Russian, Indonesian, Nigerian, or Mexican supplies. Or Exxon's Singapore and Carrbbean refineries. The military will be out there anyway, oil or no oil.

Then you do not understand the breadth of the Neocon/Neoliberal vision. I suggest you read the infamous PNAC document to see how critical the convergence of US global military superiority (full spectrum) and projected US energy demands is. Energy, its availability and price, is the limiting factor in not only economic growth, but economic survival in this century. That is why we are in Iraq. That is why we are attempting to overthrow Chavez. That is why we backed the murderous Suharto. That is why we are now pressing the initiative in Africa, especially West Africa where large offshore prospects are becoming more viable. That is why we are involved in any country that is critical for energy assets or transport. (BTW The bases built in Afghanistan are built on a proposed pipeline route.) Notice where the "trouble spots" are and by and large something related to energy assets or transport will be found.

And many other industries (Boeing, Raytheon, GE, Bath Iron Works...) are supported/subsidized by military spending. Some, such as shipbuilding, exist almost entirely on military spending.

This further illuminates my point. These are the two critical industries for the failing American empire. Guns and oil. They go hand in hand. The primary (unspoken) mission statement for the US military is energy security and control. Therein lies the true power over life and death. That is why neither are allowed to function in a true market environment. They are too important in the modern industrialized world. "Freedom is on the march" indeed...

I'll go with the return being a little high for some sectors, but it might be transient because of current oil pricing FIFO/LIFO accounting and other factors.

I trade the stock and options markets for a living and have for over 20 years. This is an amazing level of corporate profit for this level of sales in what is essentially a commodity market with low elasticity and rather predictable demand rates of growth. That being said, the oil business is subject to boom and bust cycles as is any cyclical business. I assert that the difference here is the extraordinary level of government/private sector/cartel collusion that places the energy industry as completely outside rational demand/supply analysis. In other words, they have their cake (cartel economics) and are eating it too (windfall profits).

Note that Verizon just made 1.2 billion on 17 billion revenue in the first quarter:

"Verizon’s operating income margin -- adjusted to exclude special and non-recurring items as well as, for purposes of this calculation, net pension and OPEB expenses of $22 million in the fourth quarter 2003 and $275 million in the current quarter -- rose from 18.3 percent to 20.4 percent over the same period. Consistent with past practice, Verizon believes that excluding these effects enhances comparability and provides a better picture of operating cost management."

And Verizon ain't alone.


This seems like a rather poor comparison. Verizon is at a much smaller sales level.

VZ
Sales: 71.28B
Op Margin: 18.40%
Profit Margin: 10.19%
Earnings Growth: 154.5%
ROA: 4.44%

Essentially VZ posted these great numbers with very rapid acceleration in EG. No such excuse with the more "cartel-like" returns of XOM.


Let's look at WMT for at least a comparable sales comparison to XOM.

Sales: 288B
Op Margin: 5.93%
Profit Margin: 3.65%
Earnings Growth: 13.4%
ROA: 9.37%

XOM
Sales: 298B
Op Margin: 13.84%
Profit Margin: 8.50%
Earnings Growth: 17.80%
ROA: 13.79%

Return on Assets is close to 50% higher at XOM. Profit margin is over 100% higher as is operating margin. It could be argued that WalMart is close to "cartel status" with their business model efficiency, superior execution, control over supplier pricing, and lack of effective competition in many of its markets. But at least WalMart has some competition. How much pricing differential is there among the major oil company outlets? How are their products/services differentiated. How much demand/supply elasticity is involved. The oil business is unique both in its cartel supply structure and lack of competition on the demand side. I contend that it effectively functions as a monopoly...a monopoly currently enjoying windfall "cartel" profits.

I have nothing against profits. I have nothing against windfall profits. I have a big problem with cartel's, monopolies, fake "free-markets", lying business "leaders", government collusion, corrupt politicians who cater to special corporate interests, environmental degradation linked to subsidized externalities, people being murdered to service an aggressive, destabilizing foreign policy directly linked to dominance over a global resource.

This is not a free market, no matter what "cover" is bestowed by speculators on the commodity markets. It is a monopolistic cartel and exhibits all the characteristics of one.

Let's call an oily spade a spade.
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Trish1168 Donating Member (371 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-05 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. OIL IS HIGH BECAUSE THE DOLLAR IS LOW
I'll just keep saying it until people get it.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-28-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. "Not price gouging, just takking advantage of market conditions" he says
today on Wolfie's show.

Well, I guess that $25.3 billion dollars profit that Exxon-Mobil made on $298 billion in revenues doesn't count then.

Why so many apologists for the "price gougers?" The price at the pump could be lower if these behemoth companies chose not to gouge consumers.

Do you think the oil men running the White House will do anything about high gas prices? Answer: Hell, no!
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-05 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
11. If they stopped their billions in lobbying Congress for anti-environmental
Edited on Wed Apr-27-05 08:15 AM by w4rma
laws then they'd have a larger profit. Who gets that profit anyway? The CEO made $10 mil, but somebody is sitting back making billions. Who?

The majority of those billions in profits should be used to lower the prices at the pump by 20 cents per gallon or more. We are being price gouged.
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Trish1168 Donating Member (371 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-05 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. Oil is high because dollar is low
It is NOT OPEC's fault.

Oil has gone up 40% because the dollar has gone down 40%.

I AM GOING TO SCREAM THIS FROM THE RAFTERS!!

The dollar devaluation is Bush's fault (and Greenspawn's).
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