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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 06:51 PM
Original message
Why I don't like our liberal protests.
First off I think protesting is essential part of America, and so is dissent. I have been involved with a few protests. But I don't like doing them anymore and here is why.....

1. Unfocused....You can be protesting about the war, and you can have a great message to say. That is absolutely dissolved when you have a "free palestine" asshole including him/herself into your group. Worse yet, you'll get a "make pot legal" jerk-off and it tarnishes the message. Unfortunately, guess who the main stream media likes to show?

2. The violence....For us liberals, it is always the case. Yes, sometimes it's bad cops. But sometimes it's bad protestors. Case in point, somewhere on DU there is a picture of protestor with a "I'm with stupid" sign pointing to the cop. That is plain stupid. Leave the cops alone, and the better chances there will be no violence in a no war protest. Furthermore, you never know if you'd need cops to protect you from overzealous rightwingers.

3. Burning Flags....Not gonna help! Yes it is your constitutional right. But when one asswipe does it, it tarnishes the rest of group. Especially when many in the group don't believe in burning the flag.

4. Defacing Property... I don't care if you scotch tape a sign to the recruitment office or even put a post-it note on someone's Bush/Cheney bumper sticker. This is not right. Period. You wouldn't like it if religious wackos do it to abortion clinics, the ACLU, other "liberal" establishments, or even your car. I got my Kerry/Edwards sign ripped off twice from my lawn, as I am sure many of you had. You know it sucks, and you know it looks bad to right-wingers. Have some class people, we will win.





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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Because they are ineffectual?
Edited on Wed Mar-23-05 06:54 PM by BlueEyedSon
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. All true. There's a reason why Bush has only controlled crowds.
Those things happen, and then its all about that and it looks awful.

Heck, all you need to turn the average person against whatever cause is presented is to block traffic, to which the unhelpful response is, "what's more important, you getting your big ass SUV past me or the war?"
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. You forgot the nekkid PETA people
Perhaps if the different groups would have their own protests.

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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. A problem I notice
Edited on Wed Mar-23-05 06:58 PM by Dave Reynolds
is that so few people actually wish to engage in civil disobedience because they will get arrested. So the cops grab a couple of folks or the organizers and everybody scatters.

In that case, IMO, the protest was worthless. Just standing with a sign shouting is a good way to be ignored, just look at the guys with the "The End is Near" signs..

On edit: There are no trees or mountains in ANWR, so no eagles either. I dislike nit-picking, but people do notice these factual errors with regards to protests. (Kinda like the "morans" guy.)
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. If bald eagles aren't in the ANWR....
Someone needs to tell this bird to pack up and leave....

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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #7
40. I thought

That the US government just had, hadn't they?
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Here is the official list by the way
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
39. Well ANWR is hardly the home of the bald eagle
From the site you posted it says they are uncommon but nest on the south slope. They have been drilling the North and South slope for more than thirty years and yet the wildlife has not decreased. So in reality there are two factual errors in youir sig line picture. Beautiful picture by the way. I am sure it was not taken in ANWR along the coastal plain. It is however a possibility that some event could happen to cause a rupture in a pipeline or tanker and cause a massive spill which would indeed destroy some habitat. Just by drilling though the home of the bald eagle will not be destroyed. I do like your passion though and I think focus on the Polar Bear which is almost a threatened species would be more efficient.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. If only the polar bear were our national animal.....
would it have the same impact. :)
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. No trees and no mountains, no eagles in ANWR?
I've lived in Alaska my entire life and I assure you there are trees, mountains and eagles in ANWR.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. You've already been proven wrong
Aren't you the one that made that claim last week and several people posted the information to prove to you that you are the one who is wrong.
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FtWayneBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. I believe protests and demonstrations are effective and
need to be continued. When people see others going out of their way to make a political statement, it gives them a reason to examine their own beliefs, whether they be pro or con. If observers are sympathetic to the cause, it allows them to feel valid and not alone in their thinking. It also keeps the matter in the public view and tells those in power that they cannot continue to do their dirty deeds unchallenged.
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tubbacheez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'd agree that protests should be more focused and professional...
... in order to communicate one strong message, instead of a dozen or so tangential outbursts.




Part of the problem is how inclusive we tend to be. Don't get me wrong. I love our diversity. It's innovative and a wonderful strength. And it's also a double-edged sword that the other side doesn't have to worry about.

The ubiquitous "come one, come all, and do whatever" mentality has often been over-interpreted. I've seen it turn a serious act of political protest into a miniature Burning Man celebration.

I like celebrations, a lot actually, but not when I'm delivering a message.
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yorgatron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. i'd have to agree with all those points,
if it's a "stop the war,bring the troops home" protest,then why did you feel compelled to bring a "free mumia" sign? i'd like to start a protest group called "perfectly normal people against the war" where everyone shows up in day to dayclothing and EVERYONE has a sign saying "stop the war,bring the troops home"
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tubbacheez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Good idea.
I like the unity of message. Attire can be anything. Message is what needs to stay on point.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. They are acts of desperation that people resort to when they are
powerless before an uncaring government.

I went to plenty in the 1960's. I'll tell you something. If people hadn't protested and gotten violent and did things I "don't approve of" we would STILL be in fucking Viet Nam.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. If MLK gotten violent and did things I "don't approve of"
we would still be segregated.

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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. His protests were peaceful and modeled after Ghandi
They worked extremely well.

The anti-war folks now (and then, actually) don't have a strong central leader, thus the problems with them being unfocused and sometimes out of control.

Nonetheless, they worked and stopped senseless killing of tens of thousands of people for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #14
37. I think the coffin theme has been highly effective...
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. You don't know? Of course he (MLK) did NOT get violent.
Gee, what is this? A mix of American History Class and Sunday School for New-Age Protesters? Whoa! Hold me Momma. <tease!>
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. I agree. I'm not enjoying the
protest threads.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Well, that's because IMO you're "corporate" Dem supporter a la old DLC
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Yeah, that's me.
:crazy:

The DLC hardcore Dean supporter.
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. Protest is as American as the damn flag!
And in my opinion, a helluva lot more significant.

Bacon's Rebellion
Boston Tea Party
Boston Massacre
Whiskey Rebellion
Abolitionist Movement
Harper's Ferry
Civil War Draft Riots
Suffragettes
Bonus Army
Rouge River Strike (Ford)
Civil Rights Marchers
Montgomery Bus Boycott
Detroit Riots
Watts Riots
Vietnam War Protests
Kent State
LA Riots
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. the protests aren't the problem, the media coverage is
The media's goal is to entertain rather than inform. They would rather show the bad elements that are present at every protest than report on what the actual protest is about.

But I agree with your point.

There was a protest in GA about a year ago and the quote in the paper that got the most attention was from someone who thinks pissing in the bathtubs of mansions under construction sends a clear message for his cause.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. Enjoying your freedoms????
Thank a dissident!
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
21. In NO, we were very focused. Bring home the troops.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
22. It is really easy....
...to sit at home and criticize those who have the courage and commitment to take it to the streets!

I bet I can come up with 25 reasons to stay home!
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I wouldn't know....
as my post states I have been involved with a few protests.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
41. Here...
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Logansquare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
24. I have to agree. I was in a big protest in Chicago in 2002
the one where we "took" Lakeshore drive. Unfortunately, a bunch of assholes also "took" buildings on route with spray-paint cans, and nearly knocked over some parents with kids in strollers. I can't waste my time marching next to someone who is begging for a confrontation with the storm troopers. I stick to writing letters and protesting in small groups, like the one today organized by Planned Parenthood in Chicago to picket a pharmacy that refused "day-after" birth control to a rape victim. Everyone there was concerned about the issues at hand, and not in fighting the cops.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
25. Were you around for the realpolitik of the '60s protests?
If not, then it explains your complaint. I recognize this for what it is, a broadbase of ideologies gathering once again around the biggest rallying point for the left, stopping a war. Yes, you're going to have people wanting to address Palestinian issues(which are actually the root cause of much of our problems in the ME, and should be addressed), yes you're going to have pot and other issue oriented progressives piggybacking on. That's OK! It gives us support, and puts numbers on the street. Call it street compromise.

Burning flags, vandalism, well, that's part of the turf too. Outrage is going to be expressed in a multitude of fairly harmless ways. Does it look bad? Yes, and I don't condone it. But I'm a realist and realize that humans aren't all up to Ghandi's and MLK's level. I draw the line at violence, but again, knowing human nature, a riot is not out of the question. But also remember, the forces arrayed against the anti-war movement aren't above using plants and agent provocateurs. They did in the past(read up on the Congressional inquiry into the activities of the CIA, FBI, and NSA during the sixties), and they are going to do it again. So the paint wielding anachist you see at the anti-war rally actually might be a member of the alphabet agency.

All in all, given what is going on, I don't think that what you are speaking of is of any great consequence. Things will have to get racheted quite a bit before you should be concerned. If you are in a protest and see somebody about to do something stupid, call them on it. But if they are just expressing their opinion, whatever that might be, let them go.
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
27. Damn those Free Palestine assholes.
Edited on Thu Mar-24-05 12:04 AM by d_b
Like this asshole.










Damn them to hell :eyes:
:puke:




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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. Yikes!!!
That's a good point there.

Our protests, in my opinion, should just be focused on the Iraq war for now.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
28. imagine protest rallies called by leading Democrats
i agree with some of the problems you cited about protests ... i also don't like my participation to be linked to "causes not listed" when the protest was called for ... i don't mind having various groups with present with their literature but it is totally wrong to give them a voice as part of the main program when their cause was not disclosed ahead of time ...

as for PETA, pot smokers et al, i think it's OK for a movement to allow others to bring their literature in the hope of educating us about their cause ... and yes, there's always a risk that the media will distort the importance of these groups ... i guess i see that as a small price to pay for citizen to citizen action ...

one of the most disturbing aspects of very legitimate anti-war protest is the total absence of leading Democrats from the speaker's podium ... i remember anti-war speeches given by MLK, Bobby Kennedy, George McGovern and Gene McCarthy ... too bad today's Democrats are so worried about the political risks of appearing at a protest rally ... that's quite a crop of bold leaders we've elected ...
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-05 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
29. The protest threads were the most refreshing thing on DU
this week=end while the rest of the board was all Terri all the time, following the corporate media's lead and letting ourselves be destracted by Delay's tricks. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH PROTESTS!! Although you mention violence, you give no examples of any violence during this week=end's protests. The ones I saw were focused and received positive coverage on the local news. I really don't understand why any progressive would be anti ptotests. Of all the things we have to really worry and be scared about, some people target protests? My God, the protestors are doing the thankless job of trying to educate and enlighten the American people. They're fighting the press, the pukes, and ignorant people everywhere. Now they're being trashed here? :eyes:
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Holy Moley, no one reads!!!!! I didn't say anything was wrong ....
with protesting, please read my first sentence. I just have a problem with our typical style of unfocused "liberal protest". I happy that you have been involved in focused protests. I have not been so lucky.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
31. So how does "I'm with stupid" sign pointing to cop = violence?

And how does taping a sign to someone or putting a post-it note on a bumper sticker equate to ripping off signs?

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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Well, I can't believe I need to explain this.
1. Cops can have short tempers for no particular reason, they can also be set off with a sign like this. Well, ta da! There ends the protest and hello tear gas! Why? not because big brother wanted to shut down the protest, but because some ass wanted to say he was with stupid.

2. Other people's property.



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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-05 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #34
47. that would be 'possible provocation of violence',
not violence as such.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
33. I've obviously missed some of the coverage....
Just how much violence has happened recently? How many burning flags? And how much property was defaced?

What percentage of protests have involved these tactics?

Do you like anything at all about "liberal protests" or do you just want everybody to shut up?
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Don't worry you are not the only one who isn't reading the 1st sentence...
of my post....

I don't know the percentage nationwide of violence, burning flags, or property. I personally have been in protest where all these items I am talking about have taken place.

Can't have my opinion?
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Here...
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jdots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
38. why not stay at home and watch the world blow up ?
If you don't like " Liberal protests" why not get in there and make them work ? I don't like what they have become but complaining does'nt make them better. Revolution is a quick fix for evolution and now these turd maggots are taking that away from us,they don't believe in evolution.We can sit and watch it on t.v. or do the work they refuse to do to have a tomorrow that could be better. preachy I know but if these fools get they want ,we might as well all kill ourselves before they kill us.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. I've been in protests as stated but here is something else...
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murdoch Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
44. liberal protests?
There are two major protest organizers, UFPJ, which are the for the most part liberal organizers, and ANSWER/IAC/WWP/Bring the Troops Home Now Coalition who are far left organizers.

The UFPJ events never, or almost never, have violence, flag burning, property defacement or concerns for issues tangential to the war. As far as the ANSWER rallies, they are replete with issues tangential to the war, but even with ANSWER rallies violence, flag burning and property defacement are rare.

I'm not aware of the American anti-war movement killing anyone in the last few decades, although from the Oklahoma city bombing, to the assassination of doctors, radio show hosts and so forth, the far right has killed many people in the US. Yet you don't see the Terri Schiavo and anti-abortion brigades flagellating themselves because some of their extremists go out and kill people. I don't know why some defacement of recruiting stations is major news while shooting of doctors, or white supremacists who go around and shoot judges like white supremacist Matt Hale's judge who was killed a few weeks ago isn't major news. Give me a defaced military recruitment center over a dead judge in a white supremacist case any day.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-24-05 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
46. Much of what you object to may be agents provacateurs
or, in other words, law enforcement types sent in undercover precisely to be obnoxious and give protesting a bad public image, or, even better, foment violence.

I'm pretty sure that the vandals who marred the Seattle WTO protests in 1999 fell into that category.

There's also the problem of the MSM zeroing right in on the most outlandish looking protestors and ignoring all the ordinary folks. I and another woman actually confronted a Portland local news reporter in 2001 because his cameraman was concentrating exclusively on stoned kids with green dreadlocks and ignoring the huge mass of ordinary folks who were demonstrating.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-05 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Excellent point Lydia Leftcoast
We are almost helpless. Those who have no "muscle" or deemed "authority" should be allowed to express our thoughts and feelings about the Ruling Classes.

I applaud the non-violent protesters. So what if their message is less than focused, at least they are making sincere efforts to have their voices heard. :-)
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BlueManDude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-05 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
49. Don't forget the Cult of Mumia - they're always fun.
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-05 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
50. SNL did a great skit back in late 2000 or early 2001...
...satirizing the same concept. The protesters couldn't stay on message...Save the baby whales mixed in with workers rights and count every vote.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-25-05 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
51. Why don't YOU organize protests...
...if you don't like the way it's being done?

It's easy to bitch and moan...but it takes a lot of time, effort and money to organize these events. Why don't YOU give a try?

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