Abortion

[wallock]

Feel free to criticize my reasoning, but I was thinking today -

Republicans are generally against abortion in all cases except if the mother's life is endangered. Their argument is that a the fetus (or single cell) is a living being and has the same rights as you and me. But then shouldn't it have the exact same rights as the mother? Why is the mother's life more valuable?

Just curious to see what their rationale is for this - I am sure there is some.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

1. I don't think the right wants abortion for any reason period.

To me, their rhetoric makes it seem that they don't value the life of the mother, only that of the fetus.

The right only cares about you being born, not you life after.

[johnaries]

2. That's right, they don't want it even for the health of the mother.

If the mother dies, then it was God's will.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

4. exactly! They want control.

They don't want people making decisions about their own livelihood, but have it dictated by a set of principals not everyone subscribes to.

To them, its there way, or the highway

[rodeodance]

29. exactly, the House recently voted down a bill to save the mothers life

[Mass]

3. You are right

Even the life of the baby after he is born is not precious. If it was otherwise, why would the US be so poorly positionned among western countries when it comes to death rate of babies of less than 1 year.

[primavera]

13. Not only that

But the vast majority of the pro-birth crowd also want to prohibit the use of contraception as well.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warpy]

5. Deep down, they feel enforced pregnancy and childbirth

are an appropriate punishment for any female who might have had sex and enjoyed it. They've always thought that sex with that particular component was icky doodle, that it's for reproduction only. They fully expect a 100 pound sixteen year old girl to be a gatekeeper and to resist the advances of men who outweigh her by double.

They deny that pregnancy and childbirth carry significant risks to health and life, or even to financial stability or social support.

They also deny that illegal abortions will simply take the place of safe and legal abortions, and think that any woman who has one deserves to be butchered alive and left to die.

Misogyny is at the heart of the right's opposition to abortion, and if you talk to any of these people for any length of time, you find a whole swamp of it, in men and women alike.

Sentimentalizing an early pregnancy into a full term infant is only part of it. The real basis is a deep and abiding hatred of anything female.

[dorktv]

12. Actually they expect that a woman can say no

no matter what the guy does. And if she cannot (for whatever reason) she should be punished.

[Hoping4Change]

6. Its not a living being. Now please answer how an abortion differs

from a miscarriage. Edited in. You know miscarriages the kind that God ordains.

[osiristz]

7. They need more rug-rats

Because in 18 years, they'll need a fresh sulpply of grunts to go 'kick so Ayraaab ASS'. No wonder they oppose it!

Once the Government gets into our bodies - THEY WILL NEVER LEAVE!

A woman Free to choose. It's between her and her maker. The feds are not her MAKER

[housewolf]

8. They think that a fetus is "innocent life"

Obvious adult women are guilty of something or another (you fill in the blanks)

[meow2u3]

9. It's the way the abortion debate is framed

Why should we continue to use the fetal-life vs. mother's life frame? People from both sides use this woman vs. fetus frame: pro-life extremists identify with the fetus, but not the woman; pro-choice absolutists identify with the woman, but not the fetus.

[dorktv]

10. The reason they view it as more valuable then the mother is

simply they think that an unborn life is more innocent, which is weird because all humans are born in sin according to the bible.


For me, the woman is more important because she is thinking, walking, talking, someone's wife, sister, mother, while a fetus is not. And since there are no guarentees in life, how do we know that fetus will grow to term and be born?

[mcd1982]

11. i would guess...

Pro-lifers believe abortion is murder.

Self defense from a legal standpoint, is an acceptable rationale for murder. If you feel your life is threatened, it is okay to use deadly force.

Therefore, the pro-lifers feel that is the only acceptable time to take another life.

I actually think it kind of makes sense...

[uppityperson]

15. If an "unborn baby" life is threatened, ok to kill the mother?

I don't understand the self defense sense.

I think you are saying it is ok to use deadly force when your life is threatened, and most of the time being pregnant does not threaten your life. Self defense would rule that the woman can kill the "unborn baby" in self defense, especially in cases where her life is threatened. The only time an abortion should be allowed is to save the life of the mother (self defense for the pregnant woman). Is this right?

How about the no abortion ever pro-lifers, the ones that would not want any abortion allowed ever, even to save the life of the woman?

[mcd1982]

16. well...

"The only time an abortion should be allowed is to save the life of the mother (self defense for the pregnant woman). Is this right?"

Yes, that is how I have heard it explained before.

As to the no abortion under any circumstances, I don't know how that is justified. I don't see how any one life is more important than another, personally.

[uppityperson]

17. Yes, the no abortion ever is a problem.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm trying to check before over reacting.

I can see why someone could consider an abortion to be murder, but I think it should be legally and safely available. The "abortion is murder" people I don't understand are the ones bombing clinics, killing providers. I guess they feel if they kill a doctor, or harass patients enough to drive them away, they will have saved some lives. I have a friend who was stopped by the anti-abortion people on the way to an abortion. Several months later she got a mid-term abortion and swore she would fight for legalized early abortions for the rest of her life.

I wish the antiabortion people would focus more on the already born, making sure that all people alive and functioning have enough food, shelter, health care and no bombs to have good lives, and decent contraception. I know, many antiabortion people do feel this way and it is the radical fringe who gets media coverage but that radical fringe is becoming more and more mainstream which scares me. I guess they figure that it is not just a personal choice, but larger murder. While I understand this, I still want the choice to be available.

I remember when abortions were not legal and do not want to return to that time because women still got abortions and the non-rich ones died. I strongly feel we need to keep the choice, though whether or not I would use that choice is unclear.

[uppityperson]

14. unborn babies>born people

potential>reality
unborn unable to sin> sinned by being born
?

[liberalinAZ]

18. there's something in the Bible

They are clinging desperatly to their Bibles so they won't have to think for themselves. There is some quote in the Bible that says something like "Since you were in the womb I knew you." I don't remember the exact verse. I'm feeling to lazy to look it up.

[rodeodance]

30. legal personhood "a member of the species homo sapiens at any stage of dev

this is an old email that I saved.



......inscribing legal personhood "a member of the species homo sapiens at any stage of development,"
passed the House today. It has to pass the Senate yet. Sad!!
It is the so-called Lacy Peterson bill--but has nothing to do with killing women!! The whole thing was to push their ideology and demolish R v. Wade!!

----- Original Message -----
From: NOW Media Relations
To: xxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 5:04 PM
Subject: NOW Urges Immediate Action to Prevent Devastating "Unborn Victims of Violence Act" from Passing in Senate

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: JENNY THALHEIMER, 202-628-8669 ext. 116

NOW Urges Immediate Action to Prevent Devastating "Unborn Victims of
Violence Act" from Passing in Senate

February 26, 2004

"Under the disguise of maternal and fetal protection, reproductive
freedoms are once again under attack," said NOW President Kim Gandy
responding to today's vote in favor of the Unborn Victims of Violence Act
(H.R. 1997). "This legislation is another despicable attempt to undermine
abortion rights guaranteed under Roe v. Wade."

"If members of Congress want to address the pervasive problem of violence
against pregnant women, then they need to pass increased funding for
education and for enforcement," said Gandy.

The conservative sponsors of this cynical bill are using a strategy to
redefine the Fourteenth Amendment, which guarantees equal protection of
the law to persons, not fetuses. The inventive language of H.R. 1997
covers "a member of the species homo sapiens at any stage of development,"
so that even zygotes, blastocysts or embryos are included in the
definition. This new definition would give rights to fertilized eggs,
embryos and fetuses—ultimately, setting the stage to legally reverse Roe.

Any injury inflicted on a woman, pregnant or not, should be prosecuted as
a crime against the woman. "This is a deceptive ploy that allows abortion
foes to whittle away at women's reproductive rights," Gandy remarked.

"The approach taken in this bill is deeply misguided and does nothing to
enhance protection for a pregnant woman," said Gandy. "We are encouraging
NOW members and supporters of women's rights to immediately contact their
senators with an urgent message to vote 'NO' against this disturbing piece
of legislation."


###

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: JENNY THALHEIMER, 202-628-8669 ext. 116

[TexasLawyer]

19. ectopic pregnancies

What a lot of people don't understand is that many pregnancies are not viable for a full term, and if there is no surgical intervention the mother will die when the fetus reaches about 4 months gestation.

Some fertilized eggs never make it out of the fallopian tubes and they start to grow there instead of in the uterus. This kind of pregnancy (ectopic or tubal pregnancy) causes massive hemorrhaging and pain, and eventually the tube will burst and infect and kill the mother.

This happened to me, and my husband and I were devastated since we really wanted the baby. But the pregnancy was just about to kill me, and in a few weeks both I AND the fetus would be dead-- The only thing to do was to let the surgeons remove the tube (with the baby that never would have made it inside).

[skippythwndrdog]

20. I am against abortion.

I am a proud pro-life Catholic. Abortion is a sin, and it is murder.

[jdots]

22. A woman's right is a womam's right

Since I am not able to bear a child (male) I refuse to enter into a very deep issue that predates religion and politics.

[GreenPoet64]

23. But murder involves an intent to do harm . . .

Women face difficult decisions regarding their health everyday. A woman with two children who has an ectopic pregnancy and will die from it is not thinking about murdering or doing harm of any sort--she is thinking about being a healthy mother to her own two living children.

Didn't God the Father sacrifice his own Son for the good of humanity? Don't Catholics believe that was a loving act?

Why is it so unreasonable that a woman might have to sacrifice a potential life for her own health and for the well-being of her living children?

To say abortion is murder is to vilify women.

[ComerPerro]

27. Ok. Abortion is murder, and miscarriage is manslaughter, right?

Lets make abortion illegal. Then we can find every woman who illegally has an abortion and put them to death for murder. We can put their doctors to death too.

If a woman goes to a doctor to ask about an abortion, can we nail her for attempted murder? Maybe do sting operations, where an undercover cop poses as an abortion doctor and then busts women who want to get abortions?

And I say anyone who has a miscarriage should be investigated, tried, and sentenced to life in prison for voluntary manslaughter.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

28. If abortion is murder, then masturbation is too

spilling the sperm that has the potential for human life is a grave sin! It's murder.

Basically, that's your argument in a nutshelll, and it's a ridiculous one.

[greymattermom]

24. death penalty

Then they should call for the death penalty for any woman who has an abortion. I should send this suggestion to Sam Brownback.

[snippy]

25. Coat hanger republicans are rabid, not rational, so they lack rationales.

They are about power and control, not life.

[_TJ_]

26. A woman must *always* have the right to choose....

...when it comes to what happens inside *HER* body. Anything else
is fascism.

Even if you accept that the foetus is a human being/potential
human being, the mother *must* still have the right to decide whether
she wants to complete her pregnancy or not.

Women are not livestock! They must *not* be forced to breed against
their will. WHY CAN'T PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT SIMPLE POINT!!

[wallock]

32. I don't think anyone said that.... n/t

[wallock]

31. Uhhh, I think this thread is getting off target

All I wanted to know is why Republicans, who are in favor of abortion when the mother's life in endangered, think it is OK. There really wasn't a hidden message in all of this. I just really wanted to hear what their argument would be, lol.

[mcd1982]

34. i answered above, but here it is again...

Pro-lifers believe abortion is murder.

Self defense from a legal standpoint, is an acceptable rationale for murder. If you feel your life is threatened, it is okay to use deadly force.

Therefore, the pro-lifers feel that is the only acceptable time to take another life.

I actually think it kind of makes sense...

--------

Now, I am not sure about the rape/insest explanations. But this answers your question, I think.

[seabeyond]

33. rape incest and mothers life

doesnt just sit at mothers life. i think this is so important in htis arguement. murder, so be it, then rape and incest and mothers life, fuck it,..........they to have to have the baby, or else it is a group of people validating and justifying when emotional trauma outweighs fetus life.

i have waited and waited for any anti abortion person to explain in a rational way their justification of this, yet all they do is mumble and yell back, abortion is wrong. have yet to have a clear reasoning