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Joe "Dead Intern In My Office" Scarborough: "War Leads To Peace"

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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 12:02 PM
Original message
Joe "Dead Intern In My Office" Scarborough: "War Leads To Peace"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6330851/



War leads to peace. If you don't believe me, just ask the leaders of terrorist groups across the Middle East who are now suing for peace. This weekend anti-war activists will take to the streets in New York and across the country to protest America's war effort in Iraq. This despite the fact that there is no doubt among all neutral political observers that removing Saddam Hussein from power led to the first-ever free elections in Iraq.

Reasonable people simply cannot disagree on the geopolitical reality that those successful elections led to freedom marches in Lebanon, where this week, 1 million citizens demanded the end of Baathist rule and Hezbollah-sponsored terrorism. Today, we learn that the terror organizations Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad are all declaring an end to terrorist attacks while they seek, for the first time ever, a peaceful settlement with Israel and the United States.

Ironically, the same protesters who will be cursing this war of liberation, this president, and this country's troops are many of the same forces who opposed Reagan's liberation efforts in Central America and Europe. They convulsed in protest when Reagan dared to call nuclear weapons deployed to Western Europe the "peacekeepers." Millions marched in the streets and predicted Reagan's actions would destroy U.S. alliances with Europe and lead to WWIII. Sound familiar?

Is there any doubt that if these liberals had their way, Communists would still be ruling tens of millions in Central America and hundreds of millions in Eastern Europe and Russia? Of course not. And now that freedom is on the march again in the most repressive region in the world — the Middle East — it is disturbing that these left-wing radicals will take to the streets to condemn the very actions that have led to the spread of freedom across the world.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Isn't that supposed to be "War is Peace"?
Close enough, I guess.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. more delusional garbage offered as 'reason'
:puke:
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springhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yeh, right.........
History really proves that theory! Sheesh.
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Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. Another leap through the PNAC looking glass.
"...just ask the leaders of terrorist groups across the Middle East who are now suing for peace..."

Um... and that would be...? :wtf:
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. This must be secret news. They just pull it out of their a**es
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. Eventually the price of war is too high to pay and the next move is
toward peace. The thing that is so stupid about this is that there was peace before there was war.

Before the Vietnam war, Ho Chi Min wanted to unite the north and south into one country with a democratic form of government and a constitution similar to ours. He asked the winning countries of WWII to help him but instead France was allowed to assume it's colonial power there.

Ho turned to the communist countries for the help he didn't get from Western countries. You know the rest.

Now there is peace in Vietnam, the country is united but with a communist form of government rather than a democratic one.


My point is if we make peace important we would look for ways to negotiate our differences. But we are not about peace, we are about dominating a country like France did Vietnam. We are favor war.

Joe is a fool.
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found object Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. he's confusing the the economic liberal with the political liberal
classic.
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coloradodem2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. There's your 1984 afforisms right here.
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Ariana Celeste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. For real... how Orwellian will they get
before Americans get a friggin clue?
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is propaganda; Scarborough probably know it is
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 03:13 PM by Jack Rabbit
Scarborough is giving his readers the usual administration Orwellian line: colonial occupation is liberation.

War leads to peace. If you don't believe me, just ask the leaders of terrorist groups across the Middle East who are now suing for peace.

I'd like a for instance, please. He certainly isn't talking about Zarquawi. He certainly isn't talking about radical groups in Saudi Arabia. He certainly isn't talking about the terrorists -- whoever they were -- who assassinated former Prime Minister Hariri in Lebanon.

This weekend anti-war activists will take to the streets in New York and across the country to protest America's war effort in Iraq. This despite the fact that there is no doubt among all neutral political observers that removing Saddam Hussein from power led to the first-ever free elections in Iraq.

Scarborough leaves out a few important points. Perhaps the most important is that Bush did not want elections. Instead, the Bushies preferred a series of caucuses that would have been easier for them to control. The elections were held because Ayatollah Sistani insisted on it and could have sent Shias to the streets in mass demonstrations and civil unrest if the US continued to delay them.

Nevertheless, the elections themselves highlight other serious problems in Iraqi society. Were they really successful? They produced a majority in the transitional government for the United Iraqi Alliance, a slate that favors turning Iraq into a kinder, gentler Islamic republic than Iran. This is an improvement over Saddam's brutal tyranny or the colonial designs of Bush and the neocons, but it is not democracy. A democracy is a state where citizenship is universal and equal. If Mr. Scarborough cares to look at Iran, he will see a state where a council of twelve stuffy old men determine if a candidate is a good enough Muslim to run for office. Also, he will see a state where women are subjugated not for any practical, reality-based reason (as if there was one), but simply out of a narrow interpretation of religious dogma. That, too, is an affront to democratic principle. We have reason to be concerned that, as a result of the UIA's victory, equal rights for women is not going to be a high priority for the founding fathers of the new Iraq.

In addition to this, we must also note that a significant segment of the population, Sunni Muslims, chose to abstain from the process. They are either concerned that they will be on the short end in a Shia dominated Iraq or will not accept an Iraq where they do not themselves dominate, regardless of no longer being a numerical majority in Iraq as they once were. The former point of view expresses a fear that there will be no democracy in a Shia-dominated state, while the latter expresses a contempt for democratic principles.

Mr. Scarborough also neglects to discuss what the elections, such as they were, say about Iraqi attitudes about the invasion and occupation. The program of the United Iraqi Alliance also calls for a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq and for repealing most of Proconsul Bremer's colonial decrees. As Naomi Klein said, Iraqi voters gave Bush the purple finger. If the election is as successful as Mr. Scarborough and his allies claim, then they ought to be honest enough to say that the result cannot be read as anything other than a repudiation of US occupation by the Iraqi people.

When Mr. Bush and his allies, including Mr. Scarborough use the word democracy, they seem to mean bending a developing nation's will to a "free" trade agreement that favors the global north. That's not what I mean by it, but no matter. If Bush, Scarborough and others want to call the imposing of western economic domination with democracy, we should still point out that the Iraqi voters rejected that kind of democracy, too.

Reasonable people simply cannot disagree on the geopolitical reality that those successful elections led to freedom marches in Lebanon, where this week, 1 million citizens demanded the end of Baathist rule and Hezbollah-sponsored terrorism.

It is nonsense to say the reasonable people cannot dispute this assertion. Informed and reasonable can and do. To say that Mr. Bush's saber rattling had anything to do with demonstrations against Syria's continued presence in Lebanon is post hoc reasoning at its worst. The act that precipitated these demonstrations was the assassination of a popular Lebanese political leader. Moreover, Lebanon, unlike Iraq and most other Arab states, has something more closely resembling democratic institutions in place: Lebanon has an elected parliament; in this parliament sits a functioning opposition to the government; and Lebanon has a press regarded as among the most free and independent in the region, even when compared to the Israeli press. These democratic institutions existed in Lebanon years before Mr. Bush seized power in America and began undermining our own democratic institutions with the Patriot Act, administration-originated fake news reports and planted fake journalists asking softball questions, "free speech zones", suppression of opposition voters in key states, and, getting back to the point, using a deliberate pack of lies in order to initiate a war in Iraq that had no valid rationale based on national security concerns.

What Iraq and Lebanon have in common is that the people of those countries are calling for the removal of foreign troops from their soil and for the economic resources of their respective nations to be used for the benefit of each nation's own people, not necessarily Syrians or Americans. This isn't necessarily democracy, but it is nationalism. Once again, we must point out that in Iraq it is a popular and nationalist reaction against US policy in that country.

In addition, nationalism is on the march in Kurdistan. The Iraqi elections have underscored a long debate in the Kurdish regions of Iraq as to whether the Kurds would be better off as part of an Iraqi federation or as an independent nation. However, we would be wrong to confuse this nationalism with democracy. It does not exclude democratic principles, but does not necessarily embrace them, either.

Like President Bush, Israeli PM Ariel Sharon has told the world that strength is the only way to bring terrorists to the negotiating table. He is being proved right. Likewise, George Bush learned from Ronald Reagan that thugs do not respect concessions, but rather, strength.

Again, Mr. Scarborough engages in post hoc reasoning and ignores many important facts. Just as the invasion of Iraq did not prevent one suicide bombing in the last two years, neither did it precipitate the conditions that are a cause for some small optimism that there may be a resolution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Ariel Sharon, after years of promoting Israeli expansion into occupied territory and rejecting any peace with the Palestinians, has finally seen that the Palestinian territories cannot be swallowed without also taking in the Palestinian people with it. The demographic time bomb ins ticking; there may already be more Arabs than Jews living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. This would shatter the Zionist dream of an Israel that is at once Jewish and democratic. A Greater Israel would either have to grant Palestinians equal rights, in which case Israel ceases to be a Jewish state, or creates split-level citizenship in which Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza have fewer rights than Jews, in which case Israel ceases to be a democracy. South Africa's experience with that kind of state proved to be a failure and no doubt an Apartheid-like Israel would, too.

Consequently, Sharon has come to realize that Israel needs a sovereign, independent, viable and stable Palestinian state as badly as the Palestinians do. Mr. Bush's hand is nowhere to be seen in this state of affairs.

Rightly or wrongly, Sharon for years rejected negotiations with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Arafat's death provided Sharon with the opportunity to start anew with Mahmoud Abbas, a Palestinian leader he at least doesn't distrust. There are many things that can derail these new hopes for peace between Israel and Palestine, but for now Abbas has persuaded the militants to hold off and see what he can do with Sharon.

As for the Palestinian militants, they, too, may be seeing reason. Their goal of driving Israel into the sea was never obtainable. That they will give peaceful co-existance with a Jewish state next door a chance is a more reasonable apprach. However, Bush had nothing to do with persuading them of this.

In conclusion, Mr. Scarborough's rant is logically fallacious piece of little value. All he is attempting to do is paper over Mr. Bush's multiple failures and give him credit where none is due.
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neohippie Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. He wonders why...
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 04:10 PM by neohippie
He once again fails to connect the dots, wondering why the same people who protested Reagan's policies in Central America are upset and taking to the streets in protest again.

He fails to realize that its simply because we are still fighting the same players. These are not the architects of brilliant ideas. Their policies in the past have resulted in nothing but drugs flooding our borders huge increases in black markets international crime and violence. They hide behind black ops buying and selling drugs, weapons and oil. They brought us Ollie North and the arms for hostages deals.

They have supported and continue to back despotic regimes that are largely unpopular creating the backlash that has tarnished any sense of moral credibility that we are taught that our country has earned thorough out the world. Do you feel like we live in a country that is a beacon of hope and freedom after the stunts this administration has pulled.

They have propped up the same folks that later have become their excuse for more war and corruption. They are the monsters of war that Bob Dylan sung about, and like vampires they are feeding their endless greed.

But move along now folks, there is nothing to see here.

It must be a lot easier to sleep at night listening to the calming sounds of the rapids laying beside the shores of that great river of denial.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. It's also worth pointing out . . .
It's also worth pointing out that giving Reagan credit for the fall of Soviet Union, as Scarborough does, is post hoc reasoning.

No American leader can take credit for the implosion of Soviet Communism. It was a dreadful, corrupt system whose main feature was to be culturally suffocating. It didn't need Ronald Reagan's help to fall apart; Reagan didn't give it any.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. BBC (Saturday): Car bomb targets theatre in Qatar
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 07:14 PM by Jack Rabbit
From the BBC Online
Dated Saturday March 19 23:47 GMT (3:47 pm PST)

Car bomb targets theatre in Qatar

A suspected suicide car bomb targeting a theatre near a British school in Qatar has killed one Briton and injured about 12 other people.

The explosion occurred at the Doha Players theatre outside the capital, Doha, where Shakespeare's Twelfth Night was being performed.

At least 50 people, plus the cast, are believed to have been in the theatre at the time of the blast.

The audience is thought to have been a mix of foreigners and Arabs.

"War leads to peace. If you don't believe me, just ask the leaders of terrorist groups across the Middle East who are now suing for peace."
--Joe Scarborough
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
14. BBC (Saturday): Bomb blast hits Pakistan shrine
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 07:15 PM by Jack Rabbit
From the BBC Online
Dated Saturday March 19 23:24 GMT (3:24 pm PST)

Bomb blast hits Pakistan shrine

More than 30 people have been killed and dozens injured in a bomb blast at a Muslim shrine in southern Pakistan.

The explosion occurred as thousands gathered at the site in the village of Fatehpur, about 300km (185 miles) east of Quetta, the capital of Balochistan.

There were no immediate claims of responsibility for the bombing.

Balochistan has a history of violence between Shia and Sunni Muslims, and has seen increased attacks by tribesmen fighting for more autonomy.

But correspondents say Fatehpur is in an area which has not seen sectarian violence. Officials said it was too early to attribute blame.

"War leads to peace. If you don't believe me, just ask the leaders of terrorist groups across the Middle East who are now suing for peace."
--Joe Scarborough

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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. BBC (Saturday): Car bomb hits Lebanon's capital
From the BBC Online
Dated Saturday March 19 10:58 GMT (2:58 am PST)

Car bomb hits Lebanon's capital

A car bomb has wounded at least 11 people in a predominantly Christian suburb in the Lebanese capital Beirut.

The midnight (2200 GMT) blast created a two-metre deep crater, wrecked cars and blew off the front of nearby buildings.

It is not clear who the target was or whether it was politically-motivated. No-one has admitted planting the bomb.

But the anti-Syrian opposition has blamed Damascus supporters saying they are keen to stir unrest to justify the presence of Syrian troops in Lebanon.

"War leads to peace. If you don't believe me, just ask the leaders of terrorist groups across the Middle East who are now suing for peace."
--Joe Scarborough
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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. "Fighting for peace" is like
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 07:26 PM by deadparrot
"fucking for virginity."
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Short, sweet & simple ... sums it up - I like it! LOL n/t
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
17. Hindustan Times (Saturday): Iraq insurgency has worsened--US intelligence
From the Hindustan Times
Dated Saturday March 19

Iraq insurgency has worsened: US intelligence
Press Trust of India

Though US President George W Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice have been giving the impression that the insurgency situation in Iraq is improving, the American Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA), which monitors the situation daily, says it has worsened.

"The insurgency in Iraq has grown in size and complexity over the past year. Attacks numbered approximately 25 per day one year ago," DIA Director Vice Admiral Lowell Jacoby told the Senate Armed Services Committee in Washington.

"Attacks on Iraq's election day reached approximately 300, almost double the previous one day high of about 160 during last year's Ramadan. Since the January 30 election, attacks have averaged around 60 per day and in the 1st two weeks dropped to approximately 50 per day," Jacoby said.

The pattern of attacks, he said, remains the same as last year. Approximately 80 per cent of all attacks occur in Sunni-dominated central Iraq.

"War leads to peace. If you don't believe me, just ask the leaders of terrorist groups across the Middle East who are now suing for peace."
--Joe Scarborough

Further discussion here.

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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
18. BBC (Sunday): Baghdad firefight leaves 24 dead
From the BBC Online
Dated Sunday March 20 20:38 GMT (12:38 pm PST)

Baghdad firefight leaves 24 dead

A gun battle between insurgents and coalition troops in Baghdad has left 24 attackers dead, the US military says.
Six soldiers were injured when they were ambushed at 1200 (0900GMT) on Sunday, a statement said, without giving further details.

Earlier in the day a suicide bomber killed the head of the police anti-corruption department in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul . . . .

The Iraqi cell of al-Qaeda said they carried out the Mosul attack.

"War leads to peace. If you don't believe me, just ask the leaders of terrorist groups across the Middle East who are now suing for peace."
--Joe Scarborough


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