What's the most unpopular political view you hold on DU?

[IronLionZion]

As in, what is a view you hold that a lot of DUers or a majority of us would disagree with you or flame you for?

I hold some fairly moderate views on economic issues and defense, but my most unpopular view on here has to be my militant support for corporal punishment. I think children ought to be disciplined when they misbehave and taught to respect other people, especially their own parents. (I'm not a parent, but I'm obviously someone's child) And convicted criminals need to be caned like in Singapore and prisons should be similar to Tent City in Arizona - no TV, manual labor, heat, literally no way to escape. In short, prisoners should be treated similarly to how we treat our soldiers minus the killing of course. So if you go around spray painting cars, you ought to be caned and sent to a tent in the desert.

The first one of you to suggest this is anything like the infamous "chop shops" in Saudi Arabia will get beaten soundly with a cane. (just kidding... or am I?):P

That may be shock to you all since I'm opposed to the death penalty and support treatment instead of incarceration for non-violent drug addicts. Marijuana should be legal, taxed, and regulated like alcohol.

So, rather than flaming, what's your most unpopular issue?

[WI_DEM]

1. that I don't dislike Joe Lieberman

I disagree with him on many things, but I also think he has a good personality and is genuinely funny.

[brainshrub]

4. Self Deleted.

Forget it.

[brainshrub]

2. I think a flat tax might work.

I'm not sold that it's an entirely bad idea.

[Guaranteed]

9. It's just regressive.

Puts more of a tax burden on the middle class and poor.

[KittyWampus]

33. They Have A Flat Tax In Oz. I've Often Wondered If It's Really Such A

bad idea myself.

[canberra]

292. they do not

There is a national 10% goods and services tax, but not a flat tax on income.

A flat tax puts more burden on the poor, but it perhaps could work if there is a fairly large tax free threshold. So you only start paying tax once you earn above a certain amount.

[Ian David]

48. Here's a list of my beliefs that seem to be un-popular

I'm not sure whether these ideas actually ARE un-popular, or if it is just that the people who believe them here are merely the most vocal

1) Alternative medicine is mostly a bunch of bogus scams.

2) UFOs are NOT aliens. NOBODY has been abducted by E.T.

3) The Pentagon really WAS hit by a plane.

4) None of the planes on 9-11 were piloted by robots.

5) The tsunami was a NATURAL event.

6) Vaccinations are good for you, except maybe the ones
for Anthrax and Chickenpox.

7) Psychics are frauds. ALL of them. I mean ALL OF THEM... ALWAYS!

8) Neither Israel nor Palestine are all good or all bad.

9) Love the Southerner, hate the South. You can criticize Jesusland
without denigrating the good Democrats unfortunate enough
to live there.

10) If Muslims want us to tolerate and respect them, then show me EVEN
ONE Muslim Imam who is in favor of gay marriage. JUST ONE!
You want tolerance, you show me JUST ONE tolerant Muslim Cleric.

11) The HAARP project is not a plot to ignite the atmosphere,
control the weather, or control people's brains. It's to
communicate with submarines and study the atmosphere.

[brainshrub]

70. I agree with most, but I'm 100% behind you on #7.

Yes. All of them, 100% frauds.

[PhuLoi]

196. I foresaw you posting that.

*snort*

[sherilocks]

91. Good list , except for #1,

we agree. Unless, of course, you include my state, Florida, in #9. Try to live in rural NY, if you think there's a difference.

And forget the corporal punishment. But that's not a topic for GDP and already been hashed and rehashed to death, so to speak.

[Czolgosz]

184. I don't know of any Imams who favor gay marriage, but I read this

yesterday (I think it shows a surprising level of tolerance among Muslim Clerics):

January 25, 2005


Changing Their Sex in Iran 'There is no reason why not,' one cleric says of gender reassignment surgery. In fact, Khomeini approved it four decades ago.

By Megan K. Stack, Times Staff Writer

TEHRAN — Whispering like conspirators, the two cousins hook their thumbs in their belt loops, skim cocky eyes over the women and swivel, stiff-legged from their hips, like the men they have become. Across the room, and a few steps away on the gender spectrum, a man with shaggy hair wrinkles a pug nose in the mirror and struggles to drape a silky scarf over his head in the style of Islamic womanhood.

Almost everybody here, in this sterilized waiting room at a clinic in the clanging heart of Tehran, is in the midst of changing their sex. Waiting their turn to see the doctor, they strut about in self-conscious gender rehearsal. Someone has brought cookies, sweet with honey.

. . . .

[liberalpragmatist]

265. Largely agree except on Number 11

It's true, there are FAR and Few between Muslim clerics that support gay marriage.

That being said, you can make this statement about virtually any religion. No religion has ever had a very accepting attitude towards homosexuality. Only liberal denominations of Christianity and Judaism show this tolerance, and that stems from hundreds of years of enlightenment traditions, free and democratic societies in developed economies with strong gay rights movements.

None of those conditions are present in developing countries, much of the East, or among religiously conservative communities. You could make the statement about my religion, Hinduism and even most East Asian Buddhist establishments.

It's impossible to say that any religion IS "something," i.e. "Islam is intolerant" or "Christianity is intolerant." Such blanket statements are generalizations that ignore that religion is whatever one makes of it. Every religion can be construed to defend basically any belief. Islam certainly isn't any more condemning of homosexuality than Judaism or Christianity - the difference is there are strong liberal currents within Judaism and Christianity that stem from the fact that Jewish and Christian society is largely Western and thus developed, free and democratic, and with a long enlightenment tradition.

And that doesn't mean there aren't tolerant Muslims. I have a number of Muslim-American friends who don't have an issue with homosexuality or gay marriage. That said, they're progressive Muslims, who aren't well-organized.

One day, there may be a progressive Islamic movement similar perhaps to liberal Christianity or reform Judaism. But it's going to take time and general tolerance and moderation within the religious establishment which will also take time and is unfortunately not the case at the moment.

I'd guess that a gay-friendly Islam may emerge in Iran once the clerics fall (young Iranians are overwhelmingly liberal Muslims or secular, sickened as they are by fundie rule), Turkey, Europe, or the US (though it won't happen till the maturation of Muslim youth in those countries).

[Stella_Artois]

304. My name is Stella_Artois and i support this message

This message is funded by the movement for common sense in internet debate.

[RogueTrooper]

307. There are muslim clerics in the UK

who support gay marriage. I would do a little research before you set your predjudices in stone.

[fat free goodness]

324. Number 7...

"7) Psychics are frauds. ALL of them. I mean ALL OF THEM... ALWAYS!"

Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. It’s possible that some psychics are delusional, or simply stupid enough to convince themselves.

[Patiod]

374. No disagreement on any of the twelve points here

On the bus ride from downtown Chicago to O'Hare, my Ghanaian cab driver and I got into a discussion of Muslim intolerance - not of gay rights, but of Americans, Africans (and African-Americans), and Jews. Well, intolerance of anything or anyone that's not Islamic.

Hint: unless you're ready for an earful (which I actually found educational), do not start a discussion about Muslim tolerance of non-Muslims with a Christian cabdriver from Ghana.

[liberalpragmatist]

266. I'm with you - I think it would work in a largely class-less society

I think a flat tax wouldn't be an issue in a state which is largely homogenous and overwhelmingly middle-class without a large income disparity (think NH) and if the country as a whole were like that I'd be in favor.

As it stands, I'm not really sure I agree with the idea and I'm inclined to go against it. But I might be able to support it if it weren't completely flat - most proposals for instance actually advocate having those under a certain income pay no taxes.

I also wonder if a tradeoff could be made in which there is a flat tax on most people but also increased social services, full education funding with national standards, and universal health coverage.

I think the issue with flat tax with me is less ideologically - ideally it would be the system - it's practical. I'm not sure how you would raise the money for essential government services and programs.

[wtmusic]

370. A flat tax would do away with the middle class in about two seconds

Because a much higher percentage of lower-income households' income goes to essentials (food, clothing, shelter) they are penalized unfairly. And there is no arbitrary threshhold which doesn't penalize those near it more harshly than those far above it.

Accepting a flat tax as "fair" would have to also accept the faulty notion that the ratio of people's expndable income (fun money) to their income is linear.

[googly]

400. Even COMMUNIST Russia has flat tax !!

So are we here in the US left of communist Russia?
I agree with you, flat tax makes a lot of sense. I
will save 3 days every year trying to prepare my tax
return. Multiply that by millions of other Americans,
and then you can see the savings in man hours alone.

[RubyDuby in GA]

3. That I am for the death penalty

If a person has been forsencially proven to have committed a horrendous crime that is a capital offense, I am for the death penalty.

[baba]

39. I support the death penalty.

I support it for the most heinous murders, and only if it can be applied fairly.

[Vektor]

156. So do I,

..and same on the restrictions. I don't want to see it handed out like candy, but in some extreme cases, I do support it.

[MoonRiver]

173. I don't, because you can never guarantee that it will always be fair.

I do not want one innocent person's death on MY conscience. Therefore I am 100% against the death penalty.

[quaoar]

201. You also can't guarantee

that someone sentenced to life without parole gets a fair sentence.

And in what is surely a Kafkaesque situation, if you are poor and wrongly convicted of murder, you stand a much better chance of being exonerated if you are sentenced to death than if you are sentenced to life in prison.

[baba]

236. Interesting. n/t

[tridim]

5. I found out over the past few days that dissing Hillary

and Obama is wrong, even though they voted for a liar. Apparently I should always support Democrats regardless of their actions.

[KittyWampus]

26. For Me, It's That Dividing Democrats Into "With Us Or Against Us" Camps

is unproductive.

For too many here, you are either pure or not worthy or being called a Democrat.

And it's this stance that disuptors imitate most easily.

[tridim]

I'm certainly not in that camp

I'm just upset that so many Dems voted for a liar for SoS. I'd feel the same way if some Dems voted to overturn Roe v Wade.

[KittyWampus]

116. Yes, I Also Lament The Dearth Of Nays

[KissMeKate]

231. hey, thats not very supportiveof democrats.

you shouldnt criticise anyone's vote. it divides us all into an "us verses them" thing, dontcha know.

[liberalpragmatist]

264. That's not what cryingshame is saying

Nor is what I'm going to say. I strongly disagree with the votes cast by most Democrats on Rice. But I'm not going to let my opinion of a politician be judged on whatever the last vote is or was. I take a look at the whole picture. There are going to be disagreements between me and politicians I support b/c the only person who agrees with me 100% is myself and I'm not on the ballot.

What cryingshame and I are saying is that we shouldn't suddenly put someone on the DU shitlist just because of a few votes here and there that we dislike. The whole package needs to be considered.

[xultar]

302. Plus the circular firing squad camp. n/t

[Guaranteed]

6. I don't believe in theoretical science.

And I'm not debating it here, either.

[nickfaldo7]

11. 2 party system

I don't believe in the 2-party system. I am a registered independent, but I strongly lean democratic. I just don't like labels and don't necessarily support all the elements of the democratic platform.

[Virginian]

50. Agree, there need to be more.

All issues are not black and white, yes and no, us and them, left and right or Republican and Democratic. Having only two parties limits debate to the most simplistic level, when having a more "grayscale" discussion might actually solve the problem for everyone.

[DistressedAmerican]

16. Theoretical Science?

Help me out. I'm not sure what you're referring to. Creationism vs. evolution?

[Guaranteed]

28. No, not creationism vs. evolution.

Tachyons and neutrinos and electrons and such.

[DistressedAmerican]

37. Don't know about that

I used to live walking distance from Fermi lab, the nation's largest atom smasher. Got pretty well educated growing up. I have to say I believe in much of that. Oh well, to each his or her own. Thanks for the clarification.

[Guaranteed]

45. Yeah, I only graduated dem dere fourth grade. nt

[DistressedAmerican]

63. Didn't mean to imply that

just that I was semi-indoctrinated in it myself. Sorry for the confusion. I'll try to be more clear.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

58. what about atoms?

do you believe in atoms?

just curious as to how far up the chain it goes.

i realise that you do not want to debate this stuff and i am not trying to, i am only interested in the opinions that you hold.

is there some resource that you can point me to that kind of summarizes your problems with theoretical science.

thanks.

[Comicstripper]

179. The problem people have with theoretical science

is just that- it's theoretical. No one can look under a microscope and observe an electron.
I don't think he's refuting the possibility, but since we can't know for sure, the idea is that it shouldn't be taught as fact.
I agree to a point, but electronic behavior can be pretty well monitored and controlled. Neutrinos and whatnot, it gets a little fuzzy, at least in my brain.
But I don't mean to put words into the other poster's mouth, so sorry if I am, Other Poster Whose Name I Forgot...

[rman]

194. those models of the subatomic world, including Quantum Electro Dynamics

turned out to have practical applications.
For one, it enabled scientists and engineers to create certain electronic devices that could not have been conceived of without QED. Likewise it allowed for a dramatic scaling down of the size of electronic devices. Without theoretical sciences there would be no computers, no cell phones, etc.

Also tachyons, neutrinos, electrons and such are for all intents and purposes observable. There's no good theory without a solid basis in reality.

[Hippo_Tron]

290. Self Deleted

[VTMechEngr]

300. ah, yeah, those damned electrons.

So theoretical when I turned on my PC and microwaved some water for my tea.

[Guaranteed]

309. Yeah, they're just flying all over the place.

Can hardly get away from em.

[DistressedAmerican]

7. That Clinton Deserved to Loose His Job!

Nothing brings out flamers like that.

Two time, premeditated felon as the chief law enforcement official in the country. I can not support it regardless the party.

I also do not care what the questions are about. When evidence is subpoenaed and sworn testimony is given by the President we should all be able to assume it is credible.

Worse, it set the standard that Perjury and obstruction are not impeachable offenses. Don't think we will be to take George down on those two counts. If he is ever forced to testify about his illegal war and other things, he can just keep on lying and keep on sitting right there in the oval office.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. These Charges Were Never Proven In A Court Of Law...

eom

[IronLionZion]

36. let's not debate in this thread please eom

[DistressedAmerican]

113. Sorry, not trying to hijack the discussion.

like I said nothing brings out the flamers...

[Bunny]

24. When was Clinton convicted of a felony?

Seriously, when was he convicted? Can't wait to hear this...:eyes:

[DistressedAmerican]

31. If iIkill you but, am never convicted an I not a murderer?

See what I mean. Its not popular stance.

[Bunny]

38. You're right - it's not a popular stance.

Thank God you're not in charge of the justice system in America. Remember innocent until PROVEN guilty?

edited for less inflammatory language.

[DistressedAmerican]

57. Tried before politically motivated Senators is not the same as

tried by a court of law. He should have been. Let's also remember the Democratically written censure motion that found him guilty of those two actions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. The Censure Vote Was Never Formally Taken...

And the opinions of 535 congressmen are not a substitute for due process...

[Bunny]

68. No no no, you're all wrong.

it's 535 Congressmen and ONE(1)DUer!! That ONE (1) DUer was enough to convict him as a two-time felon, don't you know! :crazy:

[DistressedAmerican]

79. IronZionLion Asked, I Responded.

So far I guess I'm in the lead for most unpopular opinion. I guess there's something to be said for that.

Hold both parties accountable or no one will be held accountable. That's my point.

[IronLionZion]

119. DING DING DING We have a winner!

Yes, you seem to take the prize for most unpopular view. Don't be ashamed or anything. you're entitled to your opinion.

It's a shame people tried to turn this thread into a debate.

[DistressedAmerican]

123. Really didn't mean to. I tried to resist.

VERY interesting thread. Thanks!

[Walt Starr]

138. Um, under the constitution, the opinions of 535 Congressmen IS DUE PROCESS

in criminal cases involving the president.

The indictment (or impeachment if you will) is presented by the 435 members of the House. The 100 members of the Senate sit as the jurors with a requirement that 67 vote to convict, else he is acquitted.

Under the constitution, this is due porocess for a sitting president.

Clinton was acquitted.

[Cheswick2.0]

Those charges were brought to court and dismissed

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. He Lied About A Blow Job...

There are a hierarchy of lies and the punishment should fit the crime....

[DistressedAmerican]

66. The law makes NO such distinction!

Perjury is considered perjury and obstruction is considered obstruction. There are no special sentences for those that lie under oath about sex and not for example, tax evasion.

That is the same rationale they used to let Ollie North walk. After all he did it for a patriotic reason.

There are people in this country serving felony time for lying under oath about illicit affairs. What do you want to tell them about equal treatment under the law?

[Virginian]

83. There are?

"There are people in this country serving felony time for lying under oath about illicit affairs. "

Gee, I wish I had known about that before. I would have liked to have put my ex away for his affairs. My lawyer said all those laws were antiquated and I would be laughed out of court for bringing up "adultry," "Criminal Conversation," or "alienation of affection."

He could do everything without any punishment, but if I had just taken him to court and let him lie to someone besides me, he could have been incarcerated. It doesn't seem fair that someone else could have at him and I couldn't.

[Cheswick2.0]

101. don't fall for this guys game...Clinton never lied under oath

He lied on TV, but he never lied under oath. The court gave him a definition of sex. Blow jobs didn't fit and Clinton out smarted the kangaroo court.

[Virginian]

109. BJ isn't "Sexual Relations," it's foreplay.

I hadn't read everything said under oath. I thought he did lie and I just never read exactly what he said.

He didn't lie on TV. He was misleading, but a BJ doesn't fit my definition of "Sexual Relations." To me it is foreplay.

[DistressedAmerican]

111. Obstruction?

You clearly have a different definition of what is is than I do. that is clear.

However, I ask, Did they hide subpoenaed gifts or not? Does that fit the definition of obstruction as you see it?

[Virginian]

118. Again, What gifts are you talking about?

What gifts did he get from Whitewater? It cost him. He didn't benefit.

[leftynyc]

134. I think you're wrong about that

He did not lie in front of the grand jury (which is what the impeachment charge was) but he most certainly did lie in the Paula Jones deposition when asked if he was ever alone with Monica. He said no and that is a lie. But because lying in front in a deposition is not as "sexy" as lying in front of a Grand Jury, they (the pukes) went with that bogus charge.

[Cheswick2.0]

94. lying is not a crime

[leftynyc]

135. Lying under oath is a crime (eom)

[IntravenousDemilo]

167. But sometimes...

...as in this case, a lie is the only acceptable or honourable response to a question that should not be asked in the first place. This is true especially if you are a southern gentleman and a lady's reputation is at stake.

[leftynyc]

315. You may be right ethically but

it's still against the law. Please understand that I voted for President Clinton twice and would have voted for him again - what the wingers did to him was reprehensible - but I'm still furious he handed them the amunition they needed on a silver platter.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

105. The Republicans Tried As Hard As They Could And Could Only

Could Find two "people in prison for lying about sex"...

Hmmm... I'll bet you think you got me there...


For a lie to rise to the level of perjury it must be proven that the person made a willfully untrue statement and that statement was material to the action being litigated....


In those cases one woman athlete sued SI for defaming her by saying she was a lesbian and in the other case a woman psychiatrist working for the Veterans administration denied having sex with a man she was treating ... The man sued her for sexual harassment... So in those cases you had the two elements -materiality and untrue statements...

In the Jones v Clinton case which was dismissed Ms. Jones was never able to establish that Clinton was responsible for creating a hostile work environment or aking for sex in return for other favors;i.e. quid pro quo harrassment...

In the Clinton-Lewinsky affair there were never any charges of harassment so the element of materiality goes out the window...


This is the part I like... They asked Clinton if he ever had sex with Ms. Lewisnky and he said no... That's because Clinton didn't consider oral sex to be sex in it's common usage... To Clinton like myself he considered sex to include penetration... It is the job of the questioning attorney to ask specific question.. It is not the job nor the responsibility of the defendant to volunteer information...

Also, there is such a thing as prosecutorial discretion and no law enforcement official besides Inspector Javert or Ken Starr would pursue such charges...

William Jefferson Clinton is innocent of the charge of purjury but guilty of a moral lapse and exquisitely poor judgement...

[googly]

230. If by penetration you mean a penis with vaginal penetration, then

homosexuals do NOT have sex with your definition. (since both vagina
and penis are never present in the act). Now if sex is the penetration
of penis in any orifice, then a blow job certainly meets that criterion.

[FromTheLeft]

336. Both are illegal in Most States

Oral and Anal Sex in the majority of states in our union fall under each states definition of sodomy which, in most of those states is still on the books as being illegal.

Two of my friends were caught commiting an act of sodomy(he was getting a Clinton in the parking lot at 2 AM) and they were both arrested for sodomy. They were released as soon as they got to the police station after the office got enough harassment from his fellow officers for never having gotten one himself.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

365. I think homosexual sex does involve penetration at times

use your imagination...


All I am saying is many straight folks equate sex with intercourse....

[googly]

401. My post agrees with you. I was saying that any penetration

by a sex organ in any orifice is a sexual act.

[Inland]

165. No fair being idiotic in a competition to see who is biggest flamebait

Ollie wasn't allowed to walk because he committed a crime for a good reason. He walked because his conviction was reversed. His conviction was reversed because the evidence used to convict him was inadmissible under the same constitution that all criminals get to use. He received equal treatment with all accused under the law.

Clinton wasn't allowed to walk because he committed a small crime. He was allowed to walk because he wasn't even charged with a crime. In fact, the grand jury investigating every ejaculation the man had in Arkansas and DC wasn't even ASKED to indict him. He is treated the same as all people who have never been accused of a crime. I walk, you walk, he walks.

For God's sake, read a paper.

[Czolgosz]

186. Actually the law does make a distinction between material and immaterial

lies under oath.

[Virginian]

72. BJ is not "Sexual Relations" in my book.

He worded it in such a was as to be misleading, probably deliberately, but so many people misquote him and turn his statement into a lie. He said, "I did not have SEXUAL RELATIONS with..." He did NOT say, "I did not have SEX with..." To me that is a very fine line he did NOT cross. As soon as he said it, my question was, "Then how far DID you go?"

I still haven't figured out how a land deal in Arkansas has anything to do with a BJ in Washington. I think he should have been more evasive with talk of his weakness. He should have said, "That is private between my wife and me." Hey, it works for Bush and his druggy days.

[DistressedAmerican]

75. I do agree that Whitewater should not have expanded

That was wrong.

However. once forced to testify and give up the gifts he should have complied. That's the way the law works.

[Cheswick2.0]

103. now you are talking about gifts that he was given

boy you are covering the whole rightwing witch hunt spectrum.

[Virginian]

115. What gifts?

Are you freeping me?

[DistressedAmerican]

How do you feel about the Obstruction of Justice charge?

He sent Betty Curry over to get subpoenaed gifts and hide them under her bed. Nobody ever remembers that. Was that legal in your "depends what the definition of is is" world?

[Cheswick2.0]

106. it was never proven

but continue...you are doing Rush proud.

[DistressedAmerican]

121. Done for now

just saw the "please lets not debate here" post. Do not want to hijack.

Just this and we should leave these nice people alone. Forget convicted. In your heart do you believe they hid subpoenaed gifts or not? What would you do on that jury?

I do. If you do not, I'll leave you to that. See you around.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

120. I Think The Call Was Placed Prior To The Subpoena

And Has It Been Established Beyond A Reasonable Doubt In A Court Of Law That The Call Was Placed At All...


And if Bill was trying to hide the evidence why didn't he tell her to burn the copy of Leaves Of Grass he gave her....

[googly]

233. I definitely would have a problem if my wife gave a blow job

to others even though as you say it is not sex.

[steelyboo]

245. Well hell, by that token, I would have a problem if my wife kissed another

man, so turning your logic upon itself, kissing is sex now too.

[googly]

251. Sure seems like it if it upsets the heck out of me LOL

[Virginian]

279. A BJ is foreplay "Sexual Relations" is intercourse.

You said "sex," Clinton didn't. He said "Sexual Relations." The Republicans have tried over and over again to misquote him. He said, "I did not have SEXUAL RELATIONS with..." He did NOT say, "I did not have SEX with..."
He was real careful not to say SEX.

You would have a problem with it, so did Hillary. So did I when my Ex did it, but he couldn't be arrested for it.

This got way too much play because there was the issue of his unfaithfulness and there was also the issue of talking about it. You have to separate the two. We are talking about what he said, not what he did.

[jobycom]

73. Not necessarily

There are lots of ways you can kill someone without it being murder. Accidental, self-defense, insanity, for instance. The court takes the circumstances into account.

Yes, that relates to Clinton. Circumstances have to be considered, punishment has to fit the crime.

[jobycom]

88. NAFTA is the right idea, I'm against a liveable wage law

I believe NAFTA gives opportunities to impoverished nations who have been unfairly pushed down by American economic tactics, I think it levels the playing field, and is no more discriminatory than Affirmative Action.

As for the liveable wage, it won't work. If you raise wages arbitrarily, prices will go up to match, and buying power will go down, and the net effect will be inflation and a higher poverty bar that will never be passed. Poverty is not an absolute line, it is a line relative to what others make, and works the same as an average. When all wages go up, so does the poverty bar, and nothing is solved.
I'm for a higher minimum wage, a national health plan, worker training and retraining programs, etc-- anything to make minimum wage jobs more temporary. But not a liveable wage meant to leap the poverty barrier.

Oh yeah, and on all the other comments: I'm against corporal and capital punishment--both teach kids and adults to be more violent and don't solve a thing-- Hillary is great, Nader sucks eggs, and Oswald shot Kennedy. Just to get it all out there. :-)

[B0S0X87]

343. And I thought I was the only one

Nice to meet you, jobycom.

[jobycom]

344. No, most of the time we don't feel like getting shouted down, is all.

Nice to meet you, too, BOSOX.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

131. Exactly

Ask any DA in the land ....

If it was an ordinary defendant the most the judge would have done is impose civil sanctions as Judge Wright did in the Jones v Clinton case...


She found he made false statements under oath and imposed civil sanctions... That is a lesser crime...

In real life the mosta person in those circumstances would get is a community service and withholding of ajudication at the end of the service...

[Cheswick2.0]

92. it is an unamerican stance

since you have to actually have to commit a crime to be guilty of it. Your charges do not fit Presidnt Clinton according to the laws of this country.

[DistressedAmerican]

107. Cheswick, good to see ya again.

we already know we disagree about the guy's guilt. We know that from previous exchanges.

One question though? Hiding subpoenaed gifts under betty's bed? Do you believe they did it? If so, do you think it fits the definition of obstruction of justice?

[brainshrub]

74. I think that's the first time I've seen someone post that comment here

and not be a troll.

That's an interesting POV. I respect your opinion on it 'tho.

ON EDIT: To clarify, I don't think you're a troll.

[DistressedAmerican]

99. Definately NOT a Freeping Troll SOB

Check out my militantly anti-Buch website to be certain:

http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/distressedamerican/main.htm

You will see I am well into the 99th percentile of anti-Bushies!

I just believe as someone said that it lowers the bar for future presidents and covering up an affair with an intern WAS NOT worth that!

Personally, I think there should be a law passed that required interns to help the guy blow off a little steam every once in a while. But, do not lie about it under oath and hide the gifts.

I also agree with the previous post that Gore would have won last go round without that hanging over his head. Although let's be clear that is NOT what I think was impeachable. That's just stupid and selfish.

[brainshrub]

133. But you said he should have lost his job?

How else do you make a President who does not want to resign leave office?

Disagreements on this issue aside, I don't think it's possible.

You didn't need to post your site. I've read enough of your past posts. (I did like the site, care to swap links?)

[DistressedAmerican]

182. Sure what's yours?

[bettyellen]

272. i hope they pass that law and your daughter gets to blow the president...

some day, because then you would be so proud of her whenshe came home and told you all about it!
Because it's all about disclosure, right?

[orthogonal]

76. I agree

Two time, premeditated felon as the chief law enforcement official in the country. I can not support it regardless the party.

Exactly right.

Not to mention it lowered the bar and was a slap in the face to middle America.

Had Clinton behaved better, Al Gore would be president now.

(The other issue where I differ with at least a large minority of DU'ers is on free speech: I'm for free speech, even for fundies who are screaming hate at homosexuals -- not all DU'ers seem to respect the First Amendment as absolutely as I do.)

[Bunny]

87. Actually, it's Ken Starr and the Republicans who should have behaved

better. They took private, consensual sex and turned it into a federal case. Without them, Al Gore would be president now.

[orthogonal]

95. We can't expect them not to take advantage of our lapses

Actually, it's Ken Starr and the Republicans who should have behaved

But you've got to expect your enemies will take advantage of you.

What you don't need is your "friends" letting you down.

By establishing that it was "ok" to lie when lying was convenient, Clinton gave cover to Bush's far more dangerous lies.

I'll be frank: it was because of Clinton's willful moral blindness, and Gore's unwillingness to repudiate it, that I didn't support Gore in 2000 (I didn't support Bush either, neither particularly impressed me).

I'm sure I'm not the only person who got so turned off by Clinton's repeated selfish and self-serving actions, that Bush (in 2000) seemed not so bad an alternative.

(In "repentance", and because Bush now scares me so much, I spent the last month before the election volunteering at Kerry's Ohio headquarters, at about 18 hours a day.)

[jobycom]

191. Extremely naive view

Both Bushes and Reagan had much greater scandals. Reagan's lies were so blatant they were comical, and his crimes so extreme that they clearly met the burden of impeachment. But the Republicans stalled the investigations, held up any Senate action that would have sanctioned or impeached Reagan, and waited until Bush could pardon the witnesses set to testify against Reagan and Bush. Bush did, on New Years Eve, 1992, when the press was barely paying attention, in the most criminal act I've ever seen a president perform.

Out of that climate came the Republican attacks on Clinton. They couldn't find any evidence of wrongdoing in his job, either as governor or president. They made up stuff, like Whitewater, where they only witness who testified against Clinton was a convicted perjurer whose own brother turned him in for trying to tamper with evidence in the Clinton case, but they had nothing. So they tried to make the womanizing charge stick. Forget that Reagan, both Bushes, LBJ, JFK, Ike, and probably every damn other president besides Carter was a womanizer, forget that there was an unwritten rule in politics that you left people alone on that issue, they went after him, anyway. Hell, every single one of the Republicans going after him were doing the same thing.

So they set up the Paula Jones case, so that Clinton couldn't tell the truth. Jones claimed he had made a pass at her, yet it was clear from her videotaped interviews that she had had a full affair with him. So Clinton had to either admit the affair and hurt his chances for re-election over an issue that he himself had fired a staffer for trying to raise against Bush, or he had to lie. The thing is, even if Clinton had admitted the affair, he still could have been charged with perjury, because Jones was denying the affair. They had him in a double bind trap, and that was their intention all along.

Clinton's evasive answer is not what allowed Bush to get away with lying. Reagan got away with far worse than Clinton, so if you want to blame someone, blame Reagan. All Clinton did was give an evasive answer in a civil trial that was thrown out as having no merit to a question that was ruled irrelevant to the case, and he did it because there was a coup attempt against him.

I don't blame Clinton. I would have blamed him for not lying. I would have blamed him for allowing the coup to succeed. That would have been the real violation of his office. The people spoke, and the Republicans tried to overturn it however they could. That's why they cheated in Florida in 2000-- because their efforts against Clinton had failed.

So you got it backwards. Clinton wasn't being slefish and self-serving. Clinton was trying to thwart an attack on democracy. The self-serving actions came from the attacks on him.

[Cheswick2.0]

90. he never commited purjury or obstruction

as you well know since this same POV of yours was shot down on another thread.

[John_H]

153. I like clinton because he advocated health for all so even

freepers could roll off their first cousins for an hour, hop on the grayhound, and get replacement teeth for the ones that dropped during the last 700 club.

[DistressedAmerican]

185. Too bad nothing real came out of his support.

I was strongly supporting him on this AND gays in the military for which we got "Don't Ask Don't Tell". I stood in the rain for four and a half hours to vote for the guy. He ended up being a real disappointment.

[no name no slogan]

252. I only voted for Clinton once-- in 1992-- and I still don't like him at al

I could not stand the guy after 1994. By then, he'd turned his back on universal healthcare, open service of gays in the military, and also signed NAFTA into law.

His private life made it even easier for Republicans to paint Democrats as immoral and insensitive to so-called "family values". I'm sorry, but WTF was he thinking? He's the most powerful, most watched person in the world, and he has an affair with an intern? Is he trying to prove he's got shit-fer-brains? :crazy:

For all his "accomplishments", the gap between rich and poor grew wider, more wealth moved upward, and workers wages barely kept pace with inflation. He also attacked a pharma plant in Sudan that produced drugs for a large part of east Africa. His deployment of troops in Kosovo (in support of Albanian "seperatists" backed by drug lords) led to a massive ethnic cleansing of ethnic Serbs from their homes. His bombing of known civilian targets in Serbia qualified as war crimes under the Geneva Convention.

Had you not known that he was a Democrat, you would swear he was a Rockefeller Republican. Hell, IMHO, he was the best Republican president we'd had since Eisenhower.

Clinton and his DLC cronies are a major reason why we're in the position we are today.

[Warren DeMontague]

340. While I disagree, I can handle that opinion...

What I can't handle is the ubiquitous (on the internet, in particular) misuse of "loose". Surely, you meant "lose".

Sorry to play gracious grammarian but that one drives me nuuts.

[Warren DeMontague]

458. Yes, but did he deserve to LOSE it?

...sorry.

[AngryAmish]

8. I support cockfighting

[southpaw]

77. You're joking, right?

Oh, please... tell me you are trying to be funny?

Please?

[AngryAmish]

108. No.

I have gone to cockfights. I liked it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

125. Men Fight With Their Cocks?

To see which is bigger?

Sounds weird.....

[Vektor]

217. I support that kind...

..but not the kind that abuses poultry.

[Hissyspit]

382. It's the 'Sport of Kings!'

Obviously, anything kings do is great, right? I always thought they meant that kings liked to fight their rooster poultry to the death. It never occurred to me that it might mean... Wow, talk about your jousting.

/ironic sardonicism off

[Quetzal]

287. I do too

n/t

[LittleClarkie]

10. John Kerry didn't abandon us in 2004, and I still want him in 2008

It's an act of bravery to even say that out loud some days.

[uppityperson]

86. Opposite-Kerry did abandon us and I don't want him.

Also an act of bravery to say out loud. By the way, we're all working and fighting onward, thanks LittleClarkie and everyone.

[foreverdem]

112. I totally agree

I know what you mean and I share your opinion 100%

[Cherie59]

397. amen! I feel the same way.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. You Shouldn't Hit People That Can't Hit You Back....

You shouldn't cane people who can't cane you back....


My views are my views... I share them here... It's up to others which are popular and which aren't...

[codswallop]

13. Freethinking.

Not moving with the herd.

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[codswallop]

166. Oh, sweetheart...be nice.

Did you get your roof fixed?

[sweetheart]

170. nope, got some roofing on order

I got marine ply on it for the moment....

:-)

[Tigress DEM]

434. Bravo, but why unpopular on DU?

[Vickers]

14. I like firearms and think more folks should have them

Pow! Pow! Pow!

:P

[Ian David]

55. Yes! Firearms good!

If there was ever a time to arm ourselves, it is now.

[me b zola]

192. Firearms, aye

I don't like the thought of fascist bushbots being the only ones who are armed & thinking that they are under attack. Just makes sense to me.

[hollowdweller]

242. Yeah #1 pro firearms and #2 I'm for cutting way back on immigration

[IronLionZion]

257. YES to firearms and YES to immigration control

I love guns (no not the radical way :P ) and my parents are immigrants (stupid people think I am too) But we really need to control the ILLEGAL immigration. Perhaps by helping some of their home countries especially Mexico. Compare the trillions spent on illegal immigrant stuff to the cost of the Marshall plan. The good Senator Fritz Hollings supported this but is now retired.

[Felix Mala]

322. Liberal interpretation of 2nd Amendment allows liberal

interpretation of 1st Amendment.

[blonndee]

385. I'm with you on this one. n/t

[Lone_Wolf]

15. I believe Nader was right to run in 2000 and is still right...

I feel he wasn't the reason for Gore's loss in 2000. Gore made a lot of tactical blunders.

Nader is 100% correct in telling us how the New Dems and their Republican-lite agenda is hurting this country.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. I Disagree

I believe Nader was right to run in 2000 and is still right..."
Posted by Lone_Wolf

"I feel he wasn't the reason for Gore's loss in 2000. Gore made a lot of tactical blunders "


Albert Gore is a fundamentally decent man and would have made a wonderful progressive president...

Nad(i)r's vanity run in 00 was and remains an outrage...

[ps1074]

17. Bush should have won his Congress campaign in 1978

Don't know if it is unpopular but had he won it, probably he wouldn't have been a president right now.

[mike_c]

19. troops are war criminals if they're engaged in an illegal war....

eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. Does That Mean They All Should Be Imprisoned And Executed?

I think the standard at Nuremburg was that the leaders who sent the troops into war were culpable not the troops themselves...

[mike_c]

61. my reply is #53, a couple down....

I "missed" and replied to the wrong post.

[politicaholic]

20. I support the Palestine.

I think they are being unfairly treated, where unlawfully conquered, and were driven to terrorism out of economic necessity.

[mike_c]

53. told you it was unpopular....

In answer to your question, I think they should all be tried-- even if only by administrative hearing-- and if found guilty of participating in or abetting crimes, punished in some manner. Since it's my belief that the war itself is a crime, that means that everyone who participated is culpable to some degree. Loss of rank or pensions, less than honorable military discharge? I don't know. That's not my call. Those convicted of committing violence against innocents or otherwise violating the Geneva Conventions should certainly be punished, IMO.

on edit: Obviously I hit the wrong post-- this was meant as a reply to #29.

[me b zola]

206. I believe the opposite

and I would venture to guess that my view is far more unpopular.

Palestine's economic woes are due to corruption of their government which made fertile ground for Hamas to assist people with faith-based assistance to people with economic, health care, or social needs.

Does any of this sound familial? I am Catholic, but I support a rather hard line of separation of church & State because we are heading down this road ourselves.

Fundies in this country are being told that liberals are trying to take away their right to worship, and most of them believe this. They are also being told that liberals <which, by the way, means anybody who does not follow their religious or social line of thought> are Godless enemies of the state, sometimes referring to us as terrorists.

We should all be alarmed by the faith based initiatives that are being implimented ie Florida's Christian prison where inmates do easier time in exchange for being forced to study the Bible and be preached to.

[Inland]

21. I think gay marriage proponents are going about it all the wrong way

and have failed to make their case for gay marriage to the people, leading to mobilizing opposition against gay marriage in particular and all liberal ideas and candidates in general, and the ending of chances for marriage for most gay Americans in their lifetimes and playing a part in saddling the rest of us with a republican congress and Bush for years to come.

[Ian David]

60. You're possibly correct. Start a thread on the topic with your ideas. n/t

[Inland]

163. No, thanks. Been over it before the election, and if it isn't obvious now

then it never will be.

[Mallifica]

459. I missed the pre-election

discussion on the above topic. I volunteered many hours to defeating the anti-gay marriage ammendment here in GA (obviously - to no avail), but I am interested in hearing what you think was wrong with the way proponents of gay marriage have gone wrong, and, more importantly, what you think the right way would have been.

[Walt Starr]

22. That we should punish Dems who have no spine

Actually, I think we should cast them into the ocean of uselessness like the jellyfish they are, to coin a euphamism.

[leanin_green]

391. Couldn't agree more. . .

It's the litmus test I use now.

[ohiosmith]

23. I've been attacked for my belief that individuals are primarily

responsible for their lot in life. Bad choices lead to bad situations.

[iwantmycountryback]

25. I don't think Senate Democrats should be called DINO's because of 1 vote

And that we shouldn't act like reactionary children with ADD and expect every Democrat to hold the exact same views as us. I guess this might be unpopular, but I support the Senate Dem's agenda to increase the size of the army and create 40,000 more troops, and I do think a large amount of money should be spent on the national defense.

[Kota]

27. Death penalty. Just when I think I am for it, I think of the victims

or what I would want if someone I loved were the victim.

[da_chimperor]

30. I think outsourcing is both necessary and unavoidable

That's the one thing in Kerry's speeches that kind of irked me. It's going to happen, and rather than trying to physically bar companies from moving operations overseas, there needs to be more work done by the government to help lower some of their costs to preserve jobs here, and investing in innovation, i.e. more funding for tech research. So yeah. I'm putting on my flame-retardant suit and ducking.

[liberalpragmatist]

267. No I agree with you

I think Kerry's proposals on this issue actually were quite good - end tax breaks for outsourcing companies.

Also more needs to be done to end Asian Currency manipulation.

However, ultimately the number of jobs lossed to outsourcing is actually significantly lower than most think and unless we're going to close off our economy it's unavoidable and we need to invest in new industries and better education.

[da_chimperor]

303. Whew! I started to sweat when I saw someone replied

I'm in total agreement with you. :D

[Tigress DEM]

437. In the present "faster/cheaper" climate, yes, but...

We could go back to quality, doing the job right the first time and honesty over shady back door dealings that manipulate prices through monopolistic practices by the huge corporations.

It is actually cheaper in the long run to do things right the first time and society is so uptight and stressed out, we could all benefit from taking a step back and doing things a little simpler and with a lot less outsourcing.

Outsourcing is a vote of no confidence in the American worker and it sucks, but I see your realistic point as far as how the world is today.

[flamin lib]

32. So far

it has been that I believe we should attack the Repubs on their strengths. First case was the Dem agenda with the addition of 40,000 new troops. No flames but it appears that those who disagree have the majority.

We should not give up the GOOD in hopes for the BEST and must never stop reaching for the PERFECT.

[Bunny]

34. I don't give a flying fuck what vehicle you're driving.

You want to drive an SUV? Drive one. You don't have to justify it to me.

Unless it's a Hummer, in which case you are an ass.

[More Than A Feeling]

35. I haven't rejected my Republican friends or relatives

I have seen some people here who say that they start arguments with friends/family and end by saying that they don't speak anymore.

That is not my way. My thinking is, I know beforehand who among those I know is and is not a Republican. My father is more or less conservative, mainly for economic reasons. My cousin is a pentacostal preacher, and one of my best friends in college is a Chicago Republican. I know this, but I also know that they are nice people who I want to remain close to. besides, I'll never convince them to switch if I freak out at them.

[CrispyQ]

127. I admire that. I wish I could be as tolerant.

I just finished reading "Don't Think of an Elephant" by George Latkoff & he ends his book with the same sentiment as your statement: "I'll never convince them to switch if I freak out at them." So, I'm working on it. But damn! It's hard!

[Gyre]

40. Hillary sucks.

(note the lack of enthusiasm...) That one seems to attract flames.

Gyre

[Ian David]

51. Oh, yeah. I forgot. I believe Hillary sucks, too.

But apparently not as well as Monica! :)

[quinnox]

41. I'm a big fan of Hillary Clinton

And still like John Kerry as well. These are rather unpopular views in this forum.

[carolinalady]

202. me too. I used to have her picture but switched to the upside

down flag after the "election". Now I wouldn't dare--I like peace and harmony!
;-)

[TheFarseer]

42. I agree with you on corporal punishment

that's half our problem in schools. What's the difference if they are raising hell in class? There's not much the teachers/principals can do about it.

My problem is my views don't fall in line with conservative OR liberal. I'm pretty much all over the place, but almost completely anti-republican sinse the rise of the bushdanistas.

[SoCalifer]

43. Hmmmm

Well, since I am a Noob, that's not an easy question for me to answer. However, it would seem that at least one person seemed to have taken my anti-international financiers and international corporate globalism views as being anti-Semitic, even though I made no mention what so ever about anything having to do with race.

And it made me feel that I had to justify myself to this person that if they knew me in real life then they would know that I am the person who can't stand people who judges another person based on what group they belong to instead of a person's personal conduct -- especially if that judgment is based on which racial group they belong to.

So I guess my anti-international financiers / global corporatism..

[sherilocks]

117. That's because anti-semitism is not about race.

It's about religion. There are followers of Judaism from every race.

[ThorsHammer]

46. Abortion

I'm not a rabid pro-birther, but don't completely buy the pro-choice argument either. I'd describe myself as a moderate pro-lifer who would like to reduce the number of abortions through sex edcucation, better healthcare, contraceptives, etc.

[Betsy Ross]

59. How about anti-abortion but pro-choice? n/t

[ThorsHammer]

82. Hmm....

That is interesting. I'm really in the thin middle, as I don't want it banned across the board and have the stupid abstinence-only policies, but also do believe that it is a child and not a choice. I'd rather attack the problem through its root causes though (sex education, contraception, education, economy, healthcare, etc) than in the courts. IMO, this could be a win-win for both sides. My personal preference is that it would only be used for health reasons, but that is unrealistic.

[FizzFuzz]

96. I don't believe there is a single pro-choice supporter who is AGAINST

sex education, better healthcare, contraceptives, etc.

I don't like the inference that if you speak out strongly against abortion-criminalizers and other rabid anti-choice factions, you must therefore be against measures to reduce abortion in the first place.

Separate issues.

The most "vocal" pro-choice people are NOT fighting against reducing the number of abortions, they are fighting against the people who preach policies that victimize women, such as, withold birth control, teach abstinence only, deny rape victims emergency birth control.

Conflating protest against extremist, misogynistic views like this with action for reasonable education and health care policy is mistaken.

[ThorsHammer]

110. We actually agree, I think

I'm solidly with the pro-choice folks on the issues like sex education, better healthcare, contraceptives, etc. My beef is with the theocons (?), often referred to as 'pro-birthers' , who push the abstinence only, criminilazation aspect. I completely support the pro-choice side fighting against the "policies that victimize women, such as, withold birth control, teach abstinence only, deny rape victims emergency birth control." Where I diverge from the pro-choice side, and where I expect to get flamed, is that I do believe it is a child and not a choice.

[liberalpragmatist]

268. Late-Term Abortion Ban

The country is not divided as a whole on abortion. Partisans are. The political parties are.

The political reality is this: the vast majority of Americans agrees with leaving the right to choose unrestricted for the first 1 or 2 trimesters but are uncomfortable with late-term abortions. Ban late-term abortions after viability (to be determined by doctors) and make broad exceptions for the life and health of the mother. That's what's done in Europe.

Also make the goal fewer abortions and focus on improved sex ed , education, and family planning (although I don't think these are unpopular views).

[cags]

213. Same Here, there are different kinds of pro-lifers

There are the religious freaks that are part of the problem and only create a need for abortion.

Then there are sensible Pro-lifers like me who believe in:

True sex education
Easy access to birth control for teenagers (without parental permission)
Plan B over the counter
Better support for young and poor mothers

I am only different from the pro-choicers in that I believe that there is no good reason to kill a baby. Yes I believe it is a baby and thats where the major difference lies.

[ThorsHammer]

227. You and I sound similar, if not identical on this

Glad to have a kindred spirit here.

IMO, true pro-lifers would support the items you mentioned. Those who support abstinence only are often fairly characterized as 'pro-birthers' on this board. I do think the Democratic Party can attract many true, pro-lifers, who are often more moderate, away from the GOP. The pro-birthers are a lost cause as they won't ever be happy, but they would be irrelevant if even a small percent of the moderate pro-lifers switched sides. I'm no political expert, but do think the solution lies in the message and the messenger. If s(he) can convince the pro-lifers that Democratic policies do save lives, while assuring the pro-choicers that they won't cave in, there would be a solid Democratic majority.

[OnionPatch]

442. I think I fall into this camp

I don't think liberals are addressing the abortion issue as well as they could. While I don't think they should be outlawed early on, I do think we could have more aggressive and vocal ideas to make them rare.

Also, I generally feel that some liberals don't give enough respect to people who believe abortion is wrong. If I thought it was, I might fight hard against it too. Although many so-called "pro-life" people are controlling and anti-woman's rights, I also think there are a lot who are actually just compassionate people who should more naturally belong to our side if we showed some concern for their views on this issue.

[msgadget]

49. I distrust the motives of ALL politicians.

However, since many intelligent people here have extreme confidence in particular candidates and elected officials, I'm learning to moderate my cynical stance out of deference to them. And, while I may not leap up and recommend someone for the presidency just because they said something I liked, I support all the positive actions I see (and believe).

[baba]

52. I support mental health assessment and treatment.

And I support federal, state, and/or local government attempts to improve mental health care in this country. I don't think that encouraging more extensive assessment of mental health is an attempt at "mind-control" by the government.

[melnjones]

174. preach it:-)

[Demit]

54. I believe in mandatory voting. Think it should be law.

Think "not voting being a choice too" or "having the freedom not to vote" are copouts. Vote for Bugs Bunny if you want, but voting should be considered a duty of every citizen.

[KissMeKate]

237. amen. eom

[WilliamPitt]

56. Winning is more important than being right

[CWebster]

144. What is won then? nt

[WilliamPitt]

151. The reason you don't know the answer to that question

is exactly my point.

[CWebster]

308. You mean this answer:

"In fact, everything DLC-like that Clinton did served to boost his own popularity at the expense of the party's strength. The idea that the safest way to win an election is with 50 percent-plus-one of the votes, by taking your base for granted and nosing yourself over the line by appealing to some notional "center" is not a "safe" strategy for the Democrats. Indeed, the more this game is repeated, the less safe it becomes, because the very ideological timidity it requires erodes the base. It just isn't a convincing story to take to the electorate. Which may be why the DLC has to promote it by hook and by crook."

"The Nation" Feb 7, 2004, page 7.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

395. Wow. The pragmatism of choosing to be either the Jew or the Nazi? NO.

Either/or is a self-defeating definition of choices.
How much compromise before you end up holding the leash?
Liberals need to "be right" AND "win" at the same time or win battles while losing the war.


Can the 'truth' be heard by ears poisoned with Orwellified propaganda?

YES. By speaking to the primal emotions around 'morality' the Repubs have been speaking while secretly committing atrocities.

My answer: Rehabilitate the deepest ingrained beliefs about national identity, don't deny them and be dismissed as immoral and irrelevant.

Instead of trying to back up 358 degrees to explain how civic morality has been Orwellified into fascism, push forward 2 degrees to manifest the better nation already embedded in our national identity.

I see these 'framing' repairs working and being heard.

Examples:
1)Bad-
'America is White Hat Sheriff Using Bombs and Torture on Bad Guys'

>>Restoration-America's White Hat comes from abiding by laws in the Bill of Rights and Constitution and Geneva Conventions and UN Charter.

2)Bad-
'America is God's Chosen Few Smiting Evil-doers and Lazy Poor'

>>Restoration-Promote the New Deal as the teachings of Jesus.
America embodies Jesus' Beatitudes and the Statue of Liberty's open-armed compassionate morality of The Strong Protecting and Feeding the Weak and Poor, NOT the Strong PREYING on the Weak. This is the way to undue the Reagan-era meme that cash=virtue and get back to the populism of unions=community.

Our social progess has been driven back through the 1960s all the way to the 1930s. We need to better describe the eugenics of fascism that people recognized back then and who fascists are and how they operate.

If I were George Lakoff, I'd call this 'The Woody Guthrie Project.'
Themesong: 'This Land is Your Land'

[Tigress DEM]

441. Right on! Feels Like Hippiness with Brainage. Good post.

TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY!

[WilliamPitt]

457. "Rehabilitate the deepest ingrained beliefs about national identity"

I'd be interested to hear your plan for accomplishing this absent a victory.

Talking about being right and truth is great in coffee shops and college dorm rooms. In order to make that pleasant and righteous talk come to more than a gust of hot air, you have to find a way to win first in order to put your policies into effect.

And, by the way, flapping the Nazis around in this argument is completely over the top. Go look up Godwin's law: The first person to bring out Hitler or Nazis in an argument automatically loses.

[Tigress DEM]

439. Like much of what you write, but you're wrong on this one.

By saying that you are saying that the repub model of winning is better than doing it the correct way and taking our lumps.

Just because they are willing to be deceptive a**holes to steal an election doesn't mean they are "winners" and just because a pretender sits in the White House doesn't mean he isn't a "loser".

I DO KNOW what people lose if they take up the unjust methods of the opponents in order to "win". They lose EVERYTHING that makes it worth fighting in the first place. Because then they BECOME what they are fighting against. And that is the worst suckage of all.

[HeeBGBz]

62. I listen to tinfoil theories and do not immediately label them such

I participate in tinfoil discussions and do not harshly chastise those who speak of such things.

That's about the only thing I've been smacked on.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. I don't "Support Our Troops"

Having been a "troop" for 4 years, I find the glorification of them and the military repugnant. "Troops" are killers, that's why they carry guns.

That said, I don't support any troops other than UN peacekeepers.

[JohnLocke]

248. Support for Israel (nt).

[BOHICA06]

67. There was something to the Swift Vets ....

JK probably alientated both peer & superior while in VN.

[Bunny]

80. Care to back that up with any facts?

I'm curious.

[BOHICA06]

89. Personal observation of interaction ...

between commissioned officers of the US Military.

If you haven't been there, you wouldn't understand.

[Bunny]

97. You PERSONALLY observed John Kerry interacting with other

commissioned officers while he was in the Navy? Please, tell me more....

[politicaholic]

126. Yes BOHICA06, I too am very curious...do tell.

[BOHICA06]

136. No ... but follow along

Officers of a unit have a bond of ..... call it what you will .... I'll use character. This is particularly true for those in combat. They don't turn on each other and the bond holds for life.

A peer has to step way out-of-bounds with the group to break this bond to the point of them standing up and saying he is unfit. They have measured his character and found it wanting. When the majority of someones peers do this, there's something there there.

If you haven't observed or been a part of such a unit this explanation is meaningless.

[karynnj]

171. They defended him in 1996 - Maybe their portrayal in Brinkley

The more likely assumption is that the Brinkley book illuminated the operation Kerry was part of in a negative way. Oddly, some of the most negative comments I remember reading were not sourced to Kerry but to the other sources. Kerry's politeness and well mannered behavior may have masked the degree of his disgust with the missions. If so, his former superiors on reading his private thoughts from his journals and letters in the book might have felt that he did not let them really know him or he intentionally deceived them. The book mentioned that Kerry within days of working for Admiral he was assigned to told him his extremely negative views on the swiftboat missions. (The type of missions Kerry was involved with ended soon after Kerry left)

Hoffman and the other officers came to Boston to defend Kerry in his 1996 campaign. If he was "unfit" or if they didn't support him then, why did they go out of their way to defend him. (Note: they had three options; defend, stay away, or attack and they chose to defend him then and they were cordial to him when the swiftboat people got together later.) As this was after the anti-war stuff, it seems more likely that it was the book which is supposedly the first book to seriously look at the swiftboat Mekong Delta activities and which is none too positive that caused his superiors to turn on him.

[Bunny]

178. Well, poor little old dumb me is so very grateful for your

thoughtful explanation. So, do try to follow along with this:

How many of those vets, besides you of course, actually served with John Kerry? As in: sailed in the same boat, fought the same battles, etc? As I recall, the men in his immediate unit were very loyal to him. But of course, what would I know? I don't have the benefit of your brilliant and infallible "personal" observations. I just have the facts on my side.

But if you're not acquainted with facts, this explanation will be meaningless to you.

[MADem]

187. The people who were NOT in his swift boat

...are the ones complaining. His CREW, who was on that river, supported him, save ONE guy. His CO was not there, his ISIC was not there. His CO gave him glowing fitreps, his ISIC signed award recommendations for him. His CO campaigned for him, once upon a time.

I'll bet if you could pull up the record of that one dissenting kid on the fastboat (and ya know, any evals that are E-4 and below were not put in the service record back in those days, only the overall grades, so they are lost to the mists of time, unless that guy kept copies and wants to share them with the world) I'll bet you find some shortfalls noted in the verbiage, and the eval signed by one LT Kerry. I think that one guy got his ass handed to him by his boat skipper, probably deservedly, and resented it to this day. I think Kerry's former CO is an addled wuss, and that fucking crazy warmonger who actually made flag and contributed to dozens of GOP candidates (and who was no where near the action at the time it happened) was simply a sleazy Rovian operative.

That's what I think. And I've been a part of such a unit, so my explanation might be exceedingly meaningful to some....

I'll stop--this sort of back and forth is not the purpose of the thread, but could not let that assertion go unchallenged.

[liberalpragmatist]

270. The SBVT were not Kery's crew

The ones on his boat that served under him were overwhelmingly supportive, save for one. It was other officers who served in the general area with Kerry who opposed him and most of it was politically motivated. They felt personally betrayed by Kerry's Senate testimony and anti-war activities.

[Tigress DEM]

444. Right. The ones who REALLY knew still SUPPORT him.

I've read what Kerry said about Vietnam and my dad was in Korea pre Vietnam during the "Korean Conflict" stage.

The things that Kerry said are errily familiar. You could almost substitute Iraq for Vietnam etc... and be talking about this war and the actions of this administration.

Having stood up up against an unjust war when he was younger makes Kerry a target for a rich and powerful president who is waging the same type of war on another country when he's running for office.

There may be veterans who disagree with Kerry on issues, but I'll tell you one thing the Swift Boat was bought and paid for by the repubs, so I trust it as far as I can throw a Cadillac and you sound like a freeper to me.

<<Sorry about the freeper bit if you're really just posting your opinion, but you do sound like one because you're insinuating instead of giving real facts.

The phenenom you are speaking about IS what makes it *plausible* the the Swift Boat had a point. BUT the financial backing makes me smell the rat and just listening to a sane and rational Kerry make his point vs all this hype that came about during the election to taint a man who actually served his country and didn't go awol like Bush did add up to propoganda to me.

On another post I had to question my patronage to WalMart, seems a simple thing, just like your loyalty to people who have served being able to tell the truth about leaders they served under. But you need to be willing to dig deep if you want the truth because the lies are more appealing if you have a stake in believing them.

Since you've been there, go contact some of the guys who stand up for Kerry and see for yourself if their story rings true. Talk to the other guys too. I think it won't take rocket science to get a gut feel for who is really lying. I feel that someone who is bought and paid for has to be lying, but that's just me. I could be wrong.

[NoPasaran]

69. I don't think the DLC deserves to be cast into a lake of fire

[greenohio]

218. Here here.

Though I do not ideologically agree with the DLC, I don't think they deserve the demonization they get here. Good post.

[Individualist]

71. I support integrity above political expedience

Secondly, I don't give a damn about what's being said on Fox or at Free Republic.

[ET Awful]

78. My least popular? The belief that troops that engage in torture are as

guilty for doing it as are those who created the policies that allow them to. Military personnel are taught to obey only lawful orders, tney are able to differentiate between right and wrong.

I support the majority of our troops, but those who engage in torture and willful mistreatment of innocents have lost my support and respect, regardless of who they are.

[Tigress DEM]

436. The thing is...

They way the situation is:

Those who commit the crime (and get caught) will get prosecuted as a scapegoat for those who gave the orders.

I still think that those who gave the orders are MORE to blame and they AREN'T being held accountable.

You ship a soldier out to a foreign country full of hostiles, where is that soldier going to go if he refuses and unjust order and his higher ups who gave the order all the way up to the imposter who says he is president turn a deaf ear?

In many situations where the rot is not so deep, I totally agree, but was there truly any recourse short of suicide? And does anyone remember how many suicides there were in the beginning of the war?

[salin]

81. I believe that sound policy is often created through dialogue and

give and take with input from both the right and the left.. that in "hearing" the problems offered from the "other side" (going both directions) often allows an end result of more sound planning in the policy formulation. Saw this work back in the eighties. Thus the unpopular belief would be that real bipartisan work and compromise can be a good thing.

Just don't think it is possible (and thus not a good thing) in todays political climate in DC.

[forgethell]

84. That we really got

our asses whipped in the last election. Totally honestly? No. but even so, we truly lost.

[sabra]

85. I support Israel.

seems to be unpopular these days...:shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

416. I don't support everything the govt of Israel does

but I support their right to exist, their right to defend themselves, and I understand that the current situation didn't just come out of a historical vacuum. I think much of the hyperbole directed at Israel from the self-appointed "left" (I've been against the Iraq war from day one, but international ANSWER doesn't speak for me) is unwarranted.

Many of the Israel-bashers seem to be willfully ignorant of history, particularly the '67 war. I don't know how the Israeli people can be expected to "accomodate" people who want to kill them or drive them into the sea.

I also support their right to build the wall, so long as it hews as much as possible to the '67 green line and isn't used as a pretext for a broad-based land grab. I think the settlements need to go, the settlers (who, as I understand it, a large number of Israelis think are total kooks) need to be moved out of the territories, but I certainly don't think Israel is the main problem in the region, and I think the folks (many of them here) who rant about Israel "dictating US foreign policy" have the wrong country... I believe the orders, especially in this administration, come out of Riyadh.

[Lerkfish]

93. um...being a liberal christian, or at one time disappointed in Kerry.

[Geek_Girl]

98. I Support Free Trade (NAFTA)

but with an even playing field.

[mattclearing]

130. I have this belief as well. I think Clinton and Friedman were right.

It takes time, but with regulation globalization could work.

Unfortunately, Bush and his corporate whoremasters have made that impossible.

[robcon]

132. I agree. Free Trade is the best hope world liberation

from poverty and hunger.

[LSdemocrat]

200. As do I

[da_chimperor]

305. I agree with you there

The way 'free' trade goes on now totally screws the poor in third-world countries. That's why globalization has sucked up to now.

[IronLionZion]

100. Doesn't it feel great to get that off your chest?

I'm glad I made this thread.

It's interesting to note that there are some directly opposing views listed here. Are both sides of the issue unpopular? or is diversity just so wonderful and welcomed at DU! It lets us know we're not a bunch of fascist dittoheads and provides for lively discussion!

Remember that you are unique....just like everyone else! :P

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

102. Not ALL Republicans suck

There are different species of Republican and one of those species is a natural ally of Democrats and the other is a natural predator. I am of the ally persuasion myself.

[chrisbur]

261. After listening to john McCain....

rail on about the obstrunctionist democrats wasting everyones time at the Rice confirmation hearing this morning, I am now sure that indeed all Republicans suck.

I'm sorry, it really cut me deep.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

320. I'm as disgusted with him as any Democrat...believe me. nt

[cmd]

104. I believe we all have to work together

even when it means sacrificing one of my pet issues.

[Tigress DEM]

446. Yep, gotta make some really high priorities first...

De-throne King George - somehow.

Speak the truth about what is happening so we can generate the momentum to make the changes. If no one knows what the problems are, there can be no solution.

Life & Liberty must be preserved so we can pursue happiness, and I'd rather be unhappy than dead.

Oh, btw, love your tag line. My husband thinks it's hilarious too.

[messiah]

114. Being left and not following the democratice party off the cliff

[politicaholic]

122. What cliff? I don't see a cliff, do you see a cliff?

[KissMeKate]

239. its there, even if some dont see it. eom

[The empressof all]

124. When I had a cat it went outdoors

Sorry couldn't help myself

[Mallifica]

460. I encourage my cat

to go outdoors - if not she gets fat and lazy and mean.

I also have conversations with her about the best way to go about killing native songbirds in the area -

[Grooner Five]

128. I think the war in Iraq can and should be won

I sometimes feel flabbergasted on this forum that a good few folks appear to actually be "rooting" for the insurgency, and I think America is acting both benevolently and in the best interest of the Middle East at large.

Islamic fundamentalism is not an imagined threat, and I don't believe "prevention" in the sense of only defending or responding to attacks is the right way to fight it. I also do not believe that the Al Qaedas and Saddam Husseins of the world can be bargained with, nor should they be.

America must win the war in Iraq, or the world will be much worse off for it. That Bush will get credit for it is a shame and politically inconvenient, but that should not supersede the global stakes which ride on this conflict.

[leyton]

158. Ditto - I hope Bush can succeed in creating a democracy over there.

Even if it makes us Dems look like fools.

[Grooner Five]

162. As miserable as this war has been...

..I don't think that's possible. The Dems who opposed the war might have looked like fools if it had all been a "cakewalk," but I suppose nothing worth winning ever is. Besides, not all, or even the majority of mainstream political Democrats opposed this war, and I don't think their vote was just a rubber stamp or political expedience.

To go back and listen to the case made by a Hillary Clinton or even John Kerry in 1998 makes me believe that Saddam Hussein was a threat not worth allowing to exist. Kerry was even lambasting our allies in 1998 for being too soft on Saddam, and I think he really meant it.

By coupling the removal of a known menace to the hope for peaceful and representative government in the Middle East, it's my opinion that America made a pretty clever (albeit dangerously ambitious) move in response to 9-11. Spreading wealth and some modicum of freedom among the people of the theocracies in the Middle East seems the only option that addresses the root of the problem rather than the effects.

Thanks for not flaming me, by the way. :)

[ThorsHammer]

274. Seconded; I had the same idea in #189

[WMliberal]

129. I've got a few.

I don't think guns are bad. I LOVE to eat meat and will never stop doing it. I don't believe in most of the conspiracy theories around here. In fact, they're the reason I usually stay away from GD and GD: Politics. I just don't get the Bloods vs. Crips way we approach DU and FreeRepublic. Sure most Freepers are religiously insane, but most of the discussion here about the rivalry is trite, juvenile, and feckless. Things said on our boards don't even tempt me to even click the link to see what they said, let alone fuel some sort of hatred.
That's about it.

[McCamy Taylor]

137. People should be allowed to own guns (if they know gun safety, of course)

Believe there ought to be gun operator education and licenses just like there are motor vehicle operator education and licenses and you should have to buy insurance, which would be subsidized by the government so that the poor would not have to pay as much for their hunting rifle or personal protection insurance as the wealthy (hah! fat chance the GOP would ever approve that one!)

[Shrek]

139. I hate cats

And I favor their immediate extinction.

[mike_c]

149. ALERT! ALERT!

Say what you will about John Kerry, U.S. troops in Iraq, or the democratic leadership. Support the Rice and Gonzales appointments. Go duck hunting with Scalia, and think good thoughts about Ken Blackwell. All of those transgressions fall within my liberal belief that you might suck, but I'll defend your right to suck. But dammit, I will not tolerate criticism of cats on DU. I'm alerting now....

[Vektor]

157. Ok, that's pretty harsh.

How about if you just don't get one?

[melnjones]

176. LOLOL

I love animals but that's freaking hilarious.

[DistressedAmerican]

208. I favor the extinction of only one species

Mosquitos. I am tired of both parties tolerating thses blood sucking vermin. If there is one thing we all ought to be able to agree on it is that Mosquitos suck!

[Vektor]

216. Ok, that's fair...

they are nasty and spread malaria, and not once have they brought joy to anyone.

[latteromden]

286. As a Minnesota, I wholeheartedly AGREE. !@($*&!(@*& mosquitos.

[KansDem]

244. But cats provide a valuable service...

Look at all the oxygen they convert to carbon dioxide for the benefit of houseplants...



These cats are helping these houseplants:

[Hissyspit]

384. Go to MyCatHatesYou.com and see all the cats who don't care...

... whether you like them or not. It's not about popularity or unpopularity, they just don't care!

www.mycathatesyou.com

[American Tragedy]

140. I'm a hardcore civil libertarian; and I don't consider myself a socialist

By far the most important issue to me is individual rights and I hate that everybody seems to take them for granted.

In general, people should live the way that they want to, even if it offends someone or some group, so long as they do not unconsensually impose upon the rights of somebody else. It's not the government's place to interfere, or to try to enforce some sort of arbitrary morality.

Without civil liberties, all else is essentially worthless. If I were forced to choose between economic justice and the first amendment, it would not be hard.

On edit: Oh yeah, I hate the authoritarian left as much as the authoritarian right.

[Cocoa]

141. that BBV is a scam

that much (not all) of voting activism is bogus.

[DerekG]

142. As a Christian leftist, I have two...

1. The "defense" budget must be decimated--not reduced, decimated. Our foreign policy has killed millions of human beings and starved countless more. Our empire must fall, and I would vote for anyone--no matter what their political stripe--who would play a role in bringing this to fruition.

2. While I support its decriminalization, I believe abortion to be a sin--part of the culture of death. Accordingly, I'm disgusted with the cavalier attitude many liberals have for this profoundly troubling moral issue.

[leyton]

199. Ditto on abortion.

I support Roe v Wade only because sweeping abortion into backalleys only makes things worse. I don't understand why we must rush to protect everyone but the unborn.

[Connie_Corleone]

143. I could care less about Dean and Clark.

I supported Clark in the draft Clark movement and during the primaries. If he wants to go into the private sector and make millions, that's okay by me. All the Clark VS. whoever doesn't like Clark, and Dean VS. Establishment Democrats really gets on my nerves.

Anytime I see a thread with Clark or Dean's name in the title I avoid it like the plague. Right now, I can't hide threads because of the level 1 thingy.

[faithfulcitizen]

392. lol, it does get tiresome sometimes ;)

[mtnester]

145. That I am against restrictive gun control

and that what we have on the books now is more than enough.

[CWebster]

146. Well, it used to be

an aversion to Hillary Clinton before she was on grand display for all to behold.

It will only get worse.

[IronLionZion]

147. Please, no more debating in this thread, thank you PLEASE READ

The whole point is for DUers to express their unpopular views. It's obvious you will disagree with most of the posts so just control the urge and calm down.

If you still feel like debating, start another thread.

If you feel like flaming and can't help yourself, then open up a word processor and let it all out, then delete it. or better yet, email it to Rick Santorum. He'll be so confused! http://santorum.senate.gov/public/

cheers, and feel free to express your views without bashing anyone else's. :toast:

[melnjones]

172. NO!

It's my right to debate 24/7 even when it makes no sense whatsoever to do so! :crazy:

(please note the sarcasm in that:))

[FizzFuzz]

148. My most unpopular view: having more than one child is selfish.

The worst thing you can do for the environment is have lots of kids; and people who rhapsodize about how they love kids but merely produce them and don't adopt are also selfish.

Yep, people don't like this viewpoint. Some folks may even still have me on ignore because I voiced it once, months and months ago. Oh well, dat's life!

Also, I'm pro-death penalty, but only for serial killers.
Serial Rapists and child-molesters should be dismembered. (pun intended.)

[jonnyblitz]

150. I don't like either Clinton and wish they would disappear. n/t

[jswordy]

152. Republicans are people, too, and they aren't all stupid. n/t

[latteromden]

154. I've got a few: the flat tax, pro-2nd Amendment, and the "Not ALL

Republicans are fascists" view. I don't cut off ties with my Republican friends and family because they're Republican.

[toddaa]

155. I am a libertarian

That's right. I believe government's powers should be severely restricted to a few essential necessities and the rest should be left to voluntary collectives. Once you put a person or a group of persons in charge, regardless of how democratically open you make the selection process, you are going to end up with a person like GW. Or Bill Clinton, for that matter.

[Padraig18]

159. I'm a gun owner.

That's about as popular here as diarrhea.

:eyes:

[Vektor]

161. Me too...

There is a gun rights forum here - and lots of DUers on there own firearms, and trade info about guns all the time. You'll find many comrades there. Some of it is debate, but some of it is just friendly exchange. I was very surprised to learn how many here are gun owners.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=118

[Zynx]

221. I'm a gun owner as well.

[chrisbur]

259. I am too...

and I fully expect to need them if we continue on this course.
Huh. I sound like a freeper.

[jswordy]

313. I'm a gun owner and a farmer ... a TWOFER!!!

I own 4 long guns, including the shotgun my Indian great-grandfather used to harvest pelts to make a living. It is so worn from use, I'd never fire it. Black powder shotgun, to boot.

I use my guns on my farm to hold down dog predation from these city folks who move out here and let Rover run "cuz we're in the country now." Rover gets in a pack with 3-4 other dogs, and then it can be hell to pay when it comes to my goats and calves. If I can, I'd rather shoot and shovel Rover than shoot and shovel half a dozen goats. Been there, done that.

My favorite all-around varmint gun on the farm is a lil Marlin .22 rifle.

Being a farmer here is a twofer cuz there are a lot of city folks who are PETA types here. They have absolutely no clue about farm life except what has been spoonfed them by this group, and they are totally disconnected from the food chain other than buying it wrapped and boxed.

I've had a few run-ins on that basis, as well. Some people would prefer to live in their ignorance because it serves their purpose, but I try to provide the facts to them in any case.

[chrisbur]

334. We're getting two goats(does) in the spring.

And I've been warned repeatedly about keeping them in and the predators out. We used to have a large pack of coyotes out back every night but I haven't heard them for a couple years.
I have a Ruger 10/22 with big scope for them.

[Cats Against Frist]

160. Federalism/Libertarianism/Gun Rights/Ending Affirmative Action

I have a lot of them, but I'm still as "left" as they come. I'm just not statist. Many people are open to this, though, and for good reasons, and there have been good discussions. I don't get a lot of hostility.

[TahitiNut]

168. I support a DRAFT.

Even more, I support a Universal Service Obligation.

As someone who was drafted and sent to Vietnam, I think I have a fairly informed perspective on this. :shrug:

[greenohio]

219. That may be unpopular in a lot more places than DU.

[fat free goodness]

331. I agree

I say this as someone who has two draft-age children. I would not suggest they volunteer, but I would be very disappointed if they would not do their duty if called. If EVERYONE and his or her children served, I think we would pay far more attention to how our military is used (and equipped.)
Reasonable provisions for those who are opposed on moral grounds from military service, such as humanitarian aid, or rescue service (Coast Guard), etc.

[melnjones]

I'm a Christian and want to be a missionary overseas.

*ducks under table*

[MoonRiver]

169. I want to overthrow the DLC and get a real progressive platform

for the Dem party. I know, that SHOULD be very popular here, but sheeeesh, it's not.
:argh:

[Capn Sunshine]

175. That Kerry LOST by a wide margin

Despite the fraud and chicanery, Kerry still lost by a huge margin of the popular vote. Oh, and that our campaign message was muddled and unclear. Oh, and that our Candidate was mudled and unclear.

Lots of folks here can't even admit the election wasn't "stolen".

They conveniently forget this should have been a landslide and instead we let it slide away.

[KissMeKate]

240. I think Kerry lost legitimately too.

I thik black box voting is dangerous, but I also think Kerry lost on his own merit- (or lack thereof)

[Quixote1818]

250. I am with you. We got spanked.

[jswordy]

314. Agreed! We need to run a contrast candidate to win. n/t

[karynnj]

326. Contrast?

I think it would have been hard to find a candidate that was more of a contrast. Kerry is a principled, honest, highly intelligent, articulate, ethical, moral person with a biography that shows he has served his country for the last 35 years. Put not in front of each of these words and you have Bush.

If you mean the IWR vote, that's been explained a million times and certainly doesn't mean that if Kerry were President he would have invaded Iraq. Over his life, he has spoken out against US aggression putting his reputation at risk to do so.

[IronLionZion]

349. lets win the next one

and have some badly needed election reform too

[Comicstripper]

177. My support of Nader

I really admire him. Hated all those flame threads before the election. I went out of my way to meet him at a book signing, and offered my hand so he could shake it. He asked what school I went to. And I told him. And he closed the book (signed "To Sam- Justice! -Ralph Nader"). We shook hands. I left the line.
Anyway, I don't hate him. That seems to be my most unpopular position.

[Va Lefty]

461. Nader

Nader is right on 95% of the issues. I don't agree with him that there is no difference between dems and gop, but that argument gets harder to make as time goes by.

[sweetheart]

180. Unpopular with DU

I agree with abolishing the income tax and implementing an entirely
electornic taxation system that applies at the register... based on
the of the payee and the item purchased, a tax automatically
deducted... no paper, no IRS AND progressive. The same tax is taken
automatically at all payment points, including the payment of salary.

I agree with ending the constitution and starting over. Its not working
and rather than have a collapse and the nightmare following, wouldn't
it be so much simpler just to hold a new constitutional convention and
begin phase II of the republic.

I am for strong liabel laws against hatred and abuse of free speech to
forment hatred. I've seen it both ways, and letting nazis spam the
airwaves is no benefit to anyone.

I am for the legalllizatoin of all drugs, yesterday, and the firing
of most police, as without the drugs war, they'll be largely unnecessary.

I am for installing satellite systems, black boxes and speed governors
in to all vehicles on the road, to charge for mileage driven that those
who use the roads pay for them (and by time, so that those who cause
traffic pay more). speed governors will entierely end traffic speeding
enforcement and remove the police from their function to pull people
over and fuck with them.

I like profanity, fuck yea... and i don't agree with moral bullshitters
who think we should not speak freely in this regard.

I think the only way to check the power of the bush nazis is the
collapse of the american economy whilst he is i power and i support
this, despite the sad results for poeple i love.

I as well believe the american army to have become institutionally
evil by its endorsement of torture and murdering civilians, and
imprisoning peole without just cause... and when the american
military gets killed, i can only say they should expect it... and
have no sympathy whatsoever... That said, for those who've lost
loved ones... its a terribly sad and evil thing their youngster's
have gotten tied up in.

[newsguyatl]

181. probably that

i don't blindly "support our troops 100%"

while i certainly don't want any (more) killed, and it saddens me when it happens -- i don't support their mission, and i don't support their constant killing of innocent civilians.

[cestpaspossible]

183. That Howard Dean is a mere mortal.

[greenohio]

232. Tis true.

Aren't we all.

[ThorsHammer]

188. Iraq - please read more

I do think that Iraq *could* turn out well in the long run. We've deposed a brutal tyrant who did not represent his people. Unfortunately, that was the easy part. *If* we can get democracy rolling there, I think Iraqis will be all the better in the long run. Having a stable democracy in the Middle East would be great, and hopefully help other countries do the same. That said, there has been an enormous human (on both sides) cost and financial cost.

[Clarkie1]

285. I agree Iraq "could" turn out well. n/t

[GeorgeBushytail]

189. That Dean's killing of a medical marijuana law in VT is an important issue

When Dean was governor of VT he killed a medical marijuana bill.

I used medical marijuana legally when I lived in WA for epilepsy and intractable pain, so this is an issue near to my heart.

I am a medical marijuana activist. I worked at the Green Cross medical mj co-op in Seattle so I know lots of patients benefitting from legal access.

On DU whenever I have brought up the fact that Dean torpedoed a medical marijuana bill I get attacked - called a faker, a drug addict, a liar, an anti-Dean zealot.

I am a lefty activist, always have been since my Dad took me to Civil Rights marches in the early 60's, and I agree with 95% of what Dean stood and stands for.

I support Dean for DNC chair, but I still expect to take flak for this posting.

[The Gigmeister]

190. A moderate one. Or a religious one. Take your pick.

[Czolgosz]

193. I think health care should be nationalized

Also, I am rabidly opposed to limitiations on the civil justice system.

[OneBlueSky]

195. chemtrails are real . . . and insidious . . .

someone's spraying tons of shit into the atmosphere almost daily, and no one seems to care . . .

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

215. Maybe because they're WORKING!!

lol!!

A mind control tool that didn't control minds wouldn't be kept up would it???

{B^)

[rainy]

197. Matriarchal societies would not have wars

I once posted that women should rule then there would not be wars, boy did I get flamed. Wow.
Some early American matriarchal societies solved conflicts by playing lacross. If someone was killed in the game the other team automatically won.

[Dark]

352. Margaret Thatcher? n/t

[TreeHuggingLiberal]

198. I would have to say most definitely my support of population control.

We only have so many natural resources, and if the world population continues to grow, we will continue to destroy forests to make way for agricultural land until one day we finally tamper too much with our ecosystem. Then I fear all hell will break loose.

[methinks2]

203. I believe in bearing arms (guns)

I believe that my right to bear arms is just as important as my right to free speech.

[Zynx]

204. That I find abortion morally reprehensible.

Also, I don't believe the election was stolen from us. We lost with some minor irregularities.

[ThorsHammer]

212. You aren't alone, I agree with both

[Zynx]

220. I'm glad I'm not alone.

Sometimes it feels like it.

[cags]

243. Agree on abortion, With the election I'm agnostic, I just don't know

[IronLionZion]

256. Thank God, I'm not alone

This is one of my two most popular threads. The other one was about pro-life Democrats. (who I usually support, like Kucinich, Gore, Casey, etc.)

I'm so glad I made this thread, and I think a lot of people here are glad too. This allows for some really interesting reading.

[Hissyspit]

351. I Doesn't Matter Whether It's Morally Reprehensible Or Not

You can't stop it by criminalizing it. It doesn't work. Eventually science will find a way to make it possible to have no need for abortions. In the mean time, don't need to be criminalizing our daughters and mothers and doctors.

[CBHagman]

205. For starters, I don't believe in party purges.

Even Zell Miller must not be purged, because expending any energy whatsoever on the turncoat would be dignifying his nonsense. If DUers insist on screaming that everyone is a traitor who doesn't line up precisely with them, why, yes, then said DUers are their own worst enemy and are just engaging in political masturbation. Have fun in your one-person party, because that's how it's going to look after a while.

I also maintain a healthy level of paranoia but do not buy 99.9 percent of conspiracy theories, regardless of which group espouses them.

I do believe that compromise is necessary in politics and that bipartisanship is in many cases healthy. Like Bill Clinton, I am not cynical about politicians in general. I think many of them mean well, though I am often horrified by much of what I see and hear.

I do not hate or even dislike Joe Lieberman, Debbie Stabenow, Dianne Feinstein, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry, Russ Feingold, David Bonior or any of the literally dozens of Democrats my fellow DUers regard as traitors or worse. As I said, have fun at your one-person party.

[yewberry]

207. I am a vegetarian.

Okay, so maybe that's not strictly a political view, but it sure seems to push people's buttons.

I think eating meat is wrong...for me.
I think hunting is wrong...for me.
I am not pallid, ashen, or sickly.
I am not a hypocrite, and, no, my shoes are not made of leather.
I am not a food nazi.

And I really don't give a rat's ass what other people eat. Not my decision to make for them.

[Piperay]

347. Same here

and I am a supporter of animal rights, sometimes I even support what PETA does.

[LiberalTexan]

412. Me Three!

And, I'm raising my child vegetarian. :) She's 8 months old now. Love her to pieces!!!

[ulysses]

209. that winning is meaningless unless you stand for something. n/t

[zacho]

210. Roe v. Wade should be overturned

to slow the fueling fire that is anti-abortion movement.

[Joanne98]

211. I'm anti-immigration. I think it bankrupts social programs

and busts unions. I think Mexico needs a new deal.

[googly]

229. I am only anti-ILLEGAL immigration. I am all for legal

immigration since unless you are a native American, we all have
close links to immigrants.

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

214. Unpopular View? How about K00ky K0nspiracy Theories about Tsunamis??? ;^)

My views are considered VERBOTEN and are censored by 'the man'!!

It's so bad, if I were to bring it up, I'd certainly be tombstoned in less time than it takes for India and Isreal to test a nuke underwater!

Okay Okay Okay -- I kid, I kid!

Seriously, considering my 'hat' isn't just tinfoil, the edict about this really made me feel like an unpopular outsider since I couldn't share my innate creativity and k00ky ideas with the only group of folks whom I feel comfortable enough with to post such...

All the best,
FULL_METAL_HAT

p.s. I should change my sig now that the 20th is past -- any suggestions?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

222. Oh Jeez, Tons

I don't hate Israel and I think it has the right to exist as a Jewish state.

Even though I now think he's great, I still think Dean lost fair and square.

I think Kerry really did lose, even though the voting abuses (particularly the long lines in urban and black neighborhoods) were inexcusable.

I think most Christians are great people.

I believe that sometimes, Democrats in the House and Senate can vote in a way that I might not like, but still be a good Democrat as opposed to a spineless sellout.

DTH

[Zynx]

223. I agree with all of those.

[Quixote1818]

249. What kind of a fuck up are you! No, I agree with all of those as well.

[IronLionZion]

277. the deck was stacked against Kerry

but he still lost on his own accord. I still think he's a great senator.
I agree 100% on the rest

[ScreamingMeemie]

224. Lots of them. I hate the DLC. I love Howard Dean. We hunt. I don't believe

in secondhand smoke being any worse for you than car exhaust, Bill and Hillary should fade into the sunset...I could go on....

[JoseRizal]

225. I am a progressive conservative Democrat

[Zhade]

388. Yeah, you sure are...

WTF? "Progressive conservative". BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Adelante]

435. Poor Jose McCarthy

Six feet under.

[Vektor]

226. I think it's inappropriate to call the Bush women "whores"

or to make fun of the way the family looks or dresses. I think they look decent, and while we may not agree with their politics, which is fine, calling them ugly, slutty, etc. is unnecessarily cruel, and doesn't do anyone any good.

[baba]

235. I agree.

In fact, I have a problem with whore and bitch being used to describe other women we may not agree with. I think these are misogynist slurs. Even against Ann Coulter.

[livinginphotographs]

328. I agree 100%.

I've said over and over again that being in your early 20's and drinking and partying all the time does NOT make someone a "drunk" or a "slut." In fact, I think calling them sluts for that reason is incredibly sexist.

They may be complete airheads (the RNC speech is enough evidence of that), but calling them sluts is completely out of line.

[B0S0X87]

346. Hear, Hear!

I was just as disguted with the Laura Bush-bashing threads as I was with all the Theresa bashing the Repubs did during the campaign.

[googly]

355. Why do you have a modicum of decency? Makes you a minority here

but I agree with you, the personal attacks diminish the gravity of
our political opinions and make us look like tin foil loonies.

[Patiod]

376. Agreed.

I cringe when I see people bashing Laura because of her looks. Bash away if her opinions suck, but let's keep Laura's wardrobe or figure or personal appearance (or Hillary's or Chelsea's) out of it, as long as it's decent and doens't embarrass America (I'm thinking Margaret Trudeau here)

And as for someone who had way more fun than Jenna or Barbara could ever DREAM about in college, I have no room to bash them on that either.

[googly]

228. That I am a centrist democrat......

I am pro environment, including strict anti-pollution laws.
I am for womens right to choose except for the last 2 or 3 months.
I am for strict enforcement of civil rights laws.
I am for freedom to consume whatever anyone wants to smoke or inhale.

But then I am NOT anti-business. I am old enough to know that the
wealth and jobs are ALL created by private businesses. The government
can not exist if there was no businesses employing people and paying
taxes. So the anti-business stand here on DU makes me a minority.

[KissMeKate]

234. Not sure about that- probably my environmentalism. eom

[killbotfactory]

238. My pro-NAMBLA stances get me into a lot of trouble...

I kid, I kid...

[DemOperative]

241. There's no shame in being a Marlon Brando Look alike

[NEDem]

246. I think Chuck Hagel would be an excellent President.

I don't think we need any more gun restrictions.

[Cherie59]

399. I used to like him too until I read, "The Price of Loyalty"

[norml]

464. I admire Chuck Hagel for standing up to the "conservative" liars on some

things, but he supports them on too many other things. As for not having more gun restrictions being your reason, I don't see the repubs doing very much to roll back restrictions on guns, except to give it lip service. Like most people, I'm fine with not having much in the way of gun restrictions. However, there is a point where most people want some regulations on ownership of munitions, and their use. You wouldn't want your neighbor's ammo depot blowing up the neighborhood, would you?

[Quixote1818]

247. When I compared Wes Clark to Thomas Jefferson

For some reason that really brought people out of the wood work to want to make fun of me.

[martymar64]

253. Cut off Israel financially

They have become an apartheid society that has utilized the tactics of their former oppressors to oppress the native population. Their settlements in the West Bank are a knife in the belly of any possible peace plan. The billions we give away to them every year to subsidize their settlements would be better spent in the US

[KissMeKate]

258. dont forget cutting off the corporate welfare

to our defense industries as part of the "aid" to Isreal.

[martymar64]

262. Eaxactly! eom

[Rockholm]

310. Agree

[Siyahamba]

254. Blue states aren't utopias

I'm in a fairly blue state but it is still full of Repugs.

[Arkana]

255. Um, that I don't think John Kerry should be crucified?

[IronLionZion]

260. No matter how FUBAR some of your views are,

have you noticed that you're still allowed on DU and other DUers and Democrats might agree with you? Democrats really are the "Big Tent party" who welcomes diversity and doesn't enact a litmus test for membership (only for politicians and definitely presidential candidates)


Diversity is beautiful

[GreenPartyVoter]

263. Obviously my belief in multi-party politics

[deutsey]

335. Same here...

I finally changed my registration from Democratic to Green.

I'll probably still vote for Democrats where I believe it matters, but I'm also going to work to build the Green Party as well.

[mvd]

269. Surprisingly..

My support of gun control - including licensing and registration. There are a lot of pro-gun people at DU.

Others:

I don't dislike mainstream entertainment/culture as much as some DUers.

I'm for Affirmative Action, but not the way that the University of Michigan was doing it.

I'm pro-choice, but by other means want to reduce abortions that aren't completely necessary.

I supported some strikes in Afghanistan, but we went about it wrong.

I think immigration should be somewhat restricted in these times.

Otherwise, my views are pretty much in line. I'm anti-death penalty, for national health care, against privatizing social security, for taxing the rich and spending, think gay marriage should be allowed if any churches marry gays, think the party should move to the left and stand for something, think fraud was involved in the 2004 Presidential election, loathe the Bush administration and associated thugs, anti-Iraq war and Patriot Act, for separation of church and state, etc.

[IronLionZion]

271. Corporate criminals should also be caned and sent to the desert

they can share the tents with vandals and car thieves. That'll take a bite out of corporate crime (or they'll just bribe people and corrupt the system)

I just wanted to add that to my post (the original one)

[Celeborn Skywalker]

273. Let's see,

I don't think that most MSM newspapers or the major networks (ABC,NBC,CBS) are republican biased (FAUX and CNN are a different story, however). I think they're just lazy and basically repeat talking points from both sides.

I also own guns.

[liberalpragmatist]

275. Late-Term Abortion Ban - I'm for it

The country is not divided as a whole on abortion. Partisans are. The political parties are.

The political reality is this: the vast majority of Americans agrees with leaving the right to choose unrestricted for the first 1 or 2 trimesters but are uncomfortable with late-term abortions. Ban late-term abortions after viability (to be determined by doctors) and make broad exceptions for the life and health of the mother. That's what's done in Europe. (although I opposed the Partial-Birth abortion ban b/c it didn't include those exceptions)

Also make the goal fewer abortions and focus on improved sex ed , education, and family planning (although I don't think these are unpopular views).

[IronLionZion]

276. that's liberal and pragmatic

excellent views hon, you've got your head screwed on right :thumbsup:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

278. That Clinton was a disappointment

and that he wasted his first two years by giving in to the Republicans when he didn't have to.

[w4rma]

280. I agree. I'd expand on that, even and would say that he isn't as good a

politician as many say he is. I think he's really not a very good politician at all, actually. On tactics, to policies to understanding how American politics works he just didn't get it and I think that he still doesn't get it.

[Clarkie1]

281. I am certain Dean was unelectable; I also believe Kerry didn't have votes

to win, even taking into account obvious fraud and disenfranchisment.

I believe Bush probably won the election.

[Clarkie1]

282. I believe safe nuclear power plants better than filling the skies with

coal smoke or daming our few remaining rivers.

I believe in alternative energy sources and expanding their use as much as possible, but don't think they can be 100% of the solution for awhile yet.

I think nuclear power should not be ruled out as a viable option.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

283. I agree. n/t

[leeroysphitz]

379. I agree with that as well

Let's face facts. Remove the profit motive from those who manage operate and maintain
the nuclear power infrastructure and it's hands down the cleanest, cheapest (friendliest) source of power. We talk about the developing world and lifting it's citizens out of poverty. Nuclear power could have had a huge impact toward that end.

[Clarkie1]

284. I think population control will be the greatest issue of the 21st century

This country and much of the world is already overpopulated and it is going to get much worse if real action is not taken and tough choices made.

This planet is a finite resource. China's already figured that out; the rest of the world hasn't.

[MrSlayer]

288. Death Penalty.

I always seem to get the most shit from people when I advocate that the victim's family get to torture the perp because that's what I would want to do. I get called barbaric and bloodthirsty and all kinds of shit but my personality is not that of a serial killer. I simply want justice. I put myself in the shoes of the family of the victim. If someone can brutally rape and torture and eventually murder your child and you can forgive that person then you are just better than me. I'm willing to be cool with everyone as long as they are cool to me. Murdering a child does not equal being anywhere near cool, raping children or anyone for that matter is far from being cool. I'm sorry if the fact that I would slaughter these people without remorse bothers people, I just can't see how you can feel any other way. Just because I don't believe in taking shit from people does not make me a bad Democrat. I'm behind equal rights, choice, unions etc 100%. If one or two conservative issues make me a pariah to the Democratic Party than so be it.

[Skittles]

289. I will never understand or forgive Kerry's vote for IWR

never

[Hippo_Tron]

291. Apparently, Senatorial Courtesy

Didn't realize this until tonight.

[New Earth]

293. i still like John Kerry

sometimes it feels like that's a crime around here.

[Vektor]

358. Oh hell yes!

I love him, and "If loving John Kerry is wrong........."

"...........I DON'T WANNA BE RIGHT"

:-)

Sorry, couldn't resist!

[Fabio]

465. Me too

[fujiyama]

294. A few:

I don't believe in MIHOP (I don't find Mike Ruppert credible) and think the threads on man made tsunamis were even more idiotic. I think trying to blame every terrible event around the world on this administration is immature and childish.

I don't believe outsourcing is evil. I say this as someone that is about to graduate with a degree in a field that can be easilly outsourced. I just don't have the same visceral anger toward it.

I'm also not completely convinced that election fraud made enough of a difference to change the outcome. Note, I didn't say there WASN'T election fraud, but I'm not convinced it was widespread enough (but I think there is more evidence supporting this than MIHOP).

A few more:

I still like John Kerry. I think he would have made a good president. I don't hate him for the myriad of reasons many seem to.

The primaries were NOT fixed. John Kerry won them fairly (and he wasn't my first choice).

[Warren DeMontague]

295. I'm libertarian on how consenting adults choose to get their jollies.

...in the privacy of their own homes, And that applies to heterosexuals as well as gays.

I don't care what people want to read, watch, or engage in so long as everyone involved is a consenting adult. Therefore, I am opposed to censorship in all its forms. Which means I don't consider pictures of naked adults, or pictures of adults having sex, "oppression" of anyone.

I don't think calling anyone "hot" constitutes "verbal assault" nor do I think that looking at a naked woman (or man, for that matter) is "visual rape", two propositions I've seen floated here.

I happen to think most prostitution, "vice", and drug laws are --at best-- an unmitigated waste of time.

I find control freaks (and, to be clear, I'm talking about people's personal lives here, not things like corporate accountability or environmental regulation) just as onerous if they are coming from the alleged "left" as if they are coming from the right.

Essentially, I skew libertarian on social issues, and if anything I'm becoming more recalcitrant in this as I age.

Lots of people here can hang with those viewpoints, but some have been known to blow a gasket around them.

[livinginphotographs]

330. You sound like the one reason

that I don't feel like writing off libertarians (their economic issues are a whole other problem, though).

Of course, my ability to find common ground with libertarians may be my own unpopular view on DU. ;)

[Warren DeMontague]

339. IMHO there's a huge gap between social libertarianism

Which I have always taken to be a quintessential "liberal" viewpoint (and another reason why I am constantly disappointed that my party steadfastly refuses to grow cajones on the subject of the drug war) and Big-L Libertarian Party economic viewpoints... like, say, the idea that people shouldn't have to pay taxes, or corporations shouldn't be subject to regulation.

I actually agree with the thread author, although maybe I differ on specifics, that corporate and white-collar criminals are held woefully under-accountable (if held accountable at all.. Ken Lay, helloooo?) ... Likewise it seems obvious to me that one of the worst examples of "up-is-down"-ism in our society is the way that we are granting ever-increasing rights and freedoms to corporations while simultaneously restricting the freedom of individuals.

[IronLionZion]

348. Kenny boy needs to be treated like the criminal he is

exactly the same way we would treat a poor minority who got caught stealing. And that should be caning and time in tent city. Federal prisons are a joke.

as for your first point, the gap is social versus economic. apples and oranges. you'd be surprised how many "liberals" want some control over personal freedoms and are therefore not "small l libertarian"

cheers
ILZ

[Warren DeMontague]

381. I wouldn't support caning & tent city for a poor minority stealing

and I'm not sure I could get behind it even for a corporate criminal.

My solution for Ken Lay types, and I remember ranting about it on my blog about a year back? Sentence them to the worst possible eventuality these folks could imagine- make them POOR.

I mean, really poor. Screw sending them to a Federal Country Club.. Take ALL their money, I mean ALL of it, and sentence them to 10 years working a minimum wage job, preferably something with a paper hat. Let them see the end consequences of their actions and leave them struggling to pay the rent. That, in my mind, is a far worse punishment for these folks than caning.

Here's a link to the original rant:

http://impeachdubya.blogspot.com/2004/07/folks-what-we-are-witnessing-today-is.html

As far as "liberals" who are gung-ho for censorship or controlling other people's lives, yes, I've come across several of them--- here, in fact.

(In the interest of full disclosure, I have to admit that I bitch and moan when I see some idiot driving a massively outsized SUV. I don't think they should "not be allowed" to own them, but I do think that environmental and other costs should be legislatively factored in to the price of the vehicle, they should be subject to AUTO emissions standards, and if people try to park them in spaces marked "compact" then THEY should be caned and sent to the tent city)

Peace.

[IronLionZion]

394. We could take their money

and pass it on to poor Americans in the form of social programs or tax cuts or balance out the budget. Wouldn't that be ironic?

peace
ILZ

[RealDems]

296. I support funding for faith based organizations

I strongly support seperation of church and state, but not at the expense of feeding hungry people. For this, I support anything that works.

[rucky]

312. That's mine, too.

I got an earful when I said that about the evangelicals in S. Asia building settlements (and churches) after the tsunami.

[ultraist]

297. Excellent choice for a topic!

I have pretty traditional Democratic beliefs: anti-death penalty, appropriate funding for social programs, pro-choice, pro-Affirmative Action, opposed to Iraq, opposed to Bush's tax plan, etc but I do swing to the left on funding for social programs compared to most. I think it's horrendous that in the wealthiest nation in the world, we have children that go hungry and without proper shelter or medical care. The unequal distribution of wealth in our country is SHAMEFUL.

As far as the most unpopular view here at DU, I have run into the most friction here discussing issues of racism. Now, that may not represent the wider view here, I'm new, but I have seen more posts here that I disagreed with (thought were racist) than any other one issue.

BTW, PLEASE read current recommendations from the APA or another reputable source on appropriate parenting skills before you have children. Corporal punishment is not an effective or humane way to discipline a child. The goal is not to "punish" but to discipline and teach.

Thanks for the topic, good one!

[IronLionZion]

321. thanks

I'm not going to debate you now, but that's my most unpopular belief. I'm not just a supporter, I'm a MILITANT supporter!

Yeah, I've noticed the conscious and subconscious racism around here. We're all a little bit racist.

[zann725]

298. That I always felt Clinton was a Remocrat AND a 'weasel.'

His recent Tsunami ads with Poppy prove both my points!

Charisma without integrity is worthless.

[Scatamooch]

299. Did George W. Bush Allow 911 To Take Place?

That George W. Bush and Company, knowing an attack was imminent, allowed the attacks to take place as a reason to invade the Middle East. Osama bin Ladin and al-Qeada were just the excuse we needed to get us there.

http://www.freewebs.com/scatamoochsworld/Warning%20Warning.htm

Scatamooch:bounce:

PS...I'm a Newbee, give me a week or so before I become unpopular!

[Silverhair]

318. That's a POPULAR view around here.

The original post asked for UNPOPULAR views. Yours even has it own name(LIHOP. Now try posting an unpopular on DU view.

[Dems4HowardDean]

301. Abortion

[marcologico]

306. Kerry's concession speech was well-timed.

A minute later than noon Wednesday and it would have been all over for him AND us.

[Donailin]

311. I think immigration laws need to be revamped

I don't think that the pouring in of immigrants to the US helps us or them in the long run. I'm for economic policy that enables their home countries to provide good paying jobs to their people. I think immigrants coming here to do the work americans dont want to do is bullshit. It's a disquise for slave labor, that's why the repubs will never raise minumum wage, they want to reduce it so they can pay Mexicans 2 bucks to cut their grass. In short, immigrants are being exploited by the US.

[Evergreen Emerald]

316. I LIKE COPS

I don't think the police are generally the enemy. I think there are bad individuals, but generally they are good people trying to do their jobs as best they can, at great risk to themselves.

[Tigress DEM]

445. Me too.

Those that are abusing the system are BAD cops, but not all cops are bad.

[shrub chipper]

317. I drive a Ford Excursion.

We have 4 kids, from 20 to 3, and we also show dogs so we need a vehicle with LOTS of room. This is the first one we have ever had where we are NOT crowded!

Flame away, but we will always drive one as long as we can.

[Silverhair]

319. Unpopular at DU view? Easy. I shop Wal-Mart.

Saves me thousands of dollars every year. I have written down the prices and compared them to other stores so I know that statement to be true.

[IronLionZion]

323. yup me too

it's all I can afford. I wish we had a Costco and Trader Joes here, but we just don't. That's life. :hi:

[hollowdweller]

422. I wouldn't flame you for that as long as you're still voting right ;)

[lojasmo]

325. The democratic party is sick, and Howard Dean might just cure it. EOM

[fat free goodness]

327. Conservatives are not "evil"

Unpopular opinon in DU:
That conservatives and Republicans by and large are doing what they think is best for the country, and what they see as right. Sure there are crooked repubs (and dems, for that matter) but by and large they are sincere. This doe not mean they are correct.
Corollary: you may persuade someone by debating whether or not their policy is the best, but you will do nothing by make yourself look like a “conspiracy nut” if you try to convince people that conservatives are Satan incarnate and out to rape the world. If you use exaggeration and falsehood to preach your policy, the policy is given short shrift even if it’s true.

[Silverhair]

329. Wow. That is unpopular. It is also true. NT

[norml]

332. So you like spanking? You can hire people for that. I support legalization

of lots of things that might get me flamed. The most arguments against a position I've taken came when I suggested that Robert E. Lee was the most over rated General in US history, and that U.S. Grant was the most under rated General in US history. It made for a lot of good historical arguments.

[IronLionZion]

333. People like Ken Lay could use a good caning

and then be sent to a tent in the desert.

[Zynx]

337. Guns are OK and animals are not people

Plus the whole "I hunt animals" thing that follows from that.

Although guns seem to be getting a bit more tolerated due to Bush getting in there again - Dems are starting to wonder if we might actually need the boomsticks. ;-)

[IronLionZion]

338. yup, America would not exist without guns

[Name removed]

341. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IronLionZion]

342. Someone in India invented a much better more efficient engine

but the big car company bastards are keeping him down.

[Mountainman]

345. People have a right to buy and drive SUVs, they are a very small part of

the problem.

The debate on who is wasting gas should include all of those who drive economical cars but drive hundreds of miles a week. Also those who use off road recreational vehicles and motor boats and those old couples roaming around the country in motor homes.

Just picking on SUV owners seems to be a little too narrow of a scope and a bit self righteous.

How about voting for SUVs to get good mileage or run on alternative forms of energy?

[Vektor]

359. I have defended that point many times.

I own a mid-size SUV, and own property in a rural area that requires 4WD access. I only average about 5-6 thousand miles per year on my vehicle, as I walk to work, and carpool with other friends on the days we run errands, which keeps other cars off the road. I know people who criticize SUV drivers, yet drive their small cars 300 miles a week - thus using a lot more fuel than I do. I often feel unfairly attacked, when I know I'm a responsible citizen. I too disagree with blanket statements that all SUV owners are environmental rapists.

Thanks for your objective viewpoint.

[ThorsHammer]

364. Agreed, but IMO Hummers (posermobiles) are fair game

I definitely agree that most DU SUV drivers are more responsible than the general populace, and probably actually use the SUV's capabilities. However, 99% of the time Hummers are used as a form of compensation, and are not used for anything remotely near their intented purpose. I don't agree with keying them like some here have said in the past, but do think they are fair game to be made fun of.

[IronLionZion]

350. I'm IronLionZion and I approve this message!

good thread guys, thanks for participating. :hi:

It's nice to know we can still come together on the issues that count.

[Sparkly]

353. I believe there are "leftists" who don't know they're singing rightwing

tunes. They've gone full-circle, and they give the left a bad name.
Today, for example:
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=7439570

The far-right National Democratic Party (NPD) provoked outrage on Friday by walking out of a minute's silence for Nazi victims and referring to Allied strikes on the German city of Dresden in 1945 as a "bombing holocaust."

(snip)

"The NPD is the tip of the iceberg," he said. "The problem is that in the east the political discourse is very right-wing oriented. There are many people who have come to see the Germans as the victims and that is partly a legacy of the (former East German government) GDR."

It's my unpopular opinion that some who call themselves "leftists" in America (on DU) today cite rightwing websites and spew the same sort of rightwing dogma as this, defending murderers, claiming that people like Milosevic, Saddam Hussein, and David Koresh are victims and in the false name of leftist pacifism contend that defending the defenseless in the face of systemic murder is the real "war crime."

In my unpopular opinion, they are leftists in name only, and have much more in common with the right than the left.

In my unpopular opinion such people measure 'extreme lefism' as 'extreme caring' about unnecessary bloodshed, as if everyone else just cared less. It's a shallow view that seeks validation from obscure websites (that lack credibility only because they're so TRUE nobody will dare confirm how TRUE they are or they might get in TROUBLE!), often overlapping the rightwing at the back of the left/right circle.

[drhilarius]

354. I don't believe in the popular election of Senators. nt

[wtmusic]

356. The fact that you're not a parent says it all

I've got two of the best behaved, smartest kids in their school. They haven't been hit or spanked once.

Not once.

When you walk the walk get back with your opinion. You might find out that smacking your kids around (for any reason whatsoever) comes right back to you.

[IronLionZion]

361. I think criminals like Ken Lay should be caned too n/t

[Bouncy Ball]

357. You lost me on your stance when you said you aren't a parent.

And my most unpopular stance is probably that I am for the genital integrity of ALL children--no circumcision to boys or girls.

Let them decide when they are grown if they want to keep all their factory-issued parts or not. No medical indication whatsoever for "routine" circumcision upon birth.

The reason it's not popular (although there are a lot here who feel the same way) is usually a psychological defense ("Hey! I'm FINE! There's nothing wrong with it!") on the part of circumcised men and/or their partners.

There's a load of misinformation and misconceptions on the entire issue. And the medical community in America does next to nothing to correct that. And that's a shame.

[Sgent]

360. I have no problem with the free market or corporations.

I believe that any large organization, government as well, will have tendancies to be corrupt, hide losers, and generally ineffecient. Some are better than others, but over time they will all see the pendulum swing. Private business is better able to handle these swings because it doesn't suffer from goal shifting -- profit is the goal.

For this reason, I believe the government should essentially be a referree to insure honesty and good faith, but should stay out of most commercial transactions -- such as Medicare, Postal Service, road construction, etc. It is reasonable for the Government to provide subsidies when needed for poverty prevention, etc.

[IronLionZion]

363. key word is "unpopular", I expect you to disagree

as for the circumcision thing, it's not very common in other countries like in Europe and Asia. It's kind of an archaic and misunderstood practice.

I'm not circumcised

[Bouncy Ball]

453. Good for you.

I'm always happy to hear of a man who got to keep all his factory-issued parts. My own was lucky enough to, too. Born in the US to a German father who isn't circumcised himself.

[wtmusic]

368. You're 100% right -- and we did it anyway

The *only* consideration was that my son would "fit in", which is silly. In retrospect I regret it.

[Bouncy Ball]

454. Don't regret it.

It's done. I have two friends who greatly regret their decision to do it, too. But I told them hey, just educate your son. Let him know why it's not necessary to do so to his sons. Then you'll stop it in that generation.

My best friend is pregnant with twins, they don't know the genders, but I am talking to her about it. She's very open-minded about it, as is her circumcised husband. They most likely will not circ if they have a boy or boys.

But seriously, don't regret it. Just do everything you can to educate your son.

[StephanieMarie]

362. I would be in favor of blocking most abortions past 14 weeks.

I just think that women should make up their mind by then, and that after that, the baby is too far along to morally be OK with aborting it. Of course, where there are severe risks to the mother or baby past 14 weeks, abortion should still be an option pending a doctors confirmation.

[LiberalTexan]

411. Wow! You are RIGHT!

THAT ONE DOES SUCK!!!!!!

[WoodrowFan]

366. That Skinner and Elad are the best Moderators int he wolrd

I saw they're the best Mods in the UNIVERSE. :P

[IronLionZion]

369. they're admins :P

yes, Skinner, Elad, and EarlG are the best admins in the universe.

and DU's mods are the best in the universe too. Anyone else would have thrown me out long ago.

[WoodrowFan]

371. you're right

This unworthy soul grovels in filth before their majesty as admins.. I am lower than Whale poopies compared to their greatness. I geneflect in their direction.


(there, that ought to allow me to post at least ONE sex thread in the Lounge!!)

[Jackie97]

367. Well....

I have a hard time believing that fraud could make up for three million votes (even though I do think cheating was possibly done in Florida).

I do support corporal punishment being legal, and I don't condemn parents as bad parents for using it. I think it's between a parent and their child. I also have to say that I think that the "No spanking" zones created in some areas in California are the dumbest thing I've ever heard. "Oh, don't offend me by spanking your child in front of me". I would not want to spank a child in public (unless perhaps they did something extremely dangerous at that moment), but give me a break.

What makes me want to flame most pro-corporal punishment advocates is that they'll often take up for a parent who goes as far as bruising their kids and they act like a kid will grow up rotten if a parent uses other form of discipline. God forbid a parent think that spanking isn't the answer to everything. They must be rotten parents. I resent that since my mother didn't think spanking was the answer to everything. Then, these people will often make up stories about how their generation got spanked, but the younger one doesn't. In other words, they'll lie. I know they know that they're lying because my sister (who used to flame me a lot for supposedly never getting spanked) now claims that our mother would have whipped the heck out of both of us if we pulled some of the stuff that certain kids we know pull today. I guess I'm now allowed to be part of the "not a child enemy" club. Sorry, but don't even get me started on those pro-corporal punishment advocates. They tell too many lies for their cause to not want to flame the heck out of most of them.

I think the flat tax might be a good idea.

I criticize politicians, even if they're Democrat. It's just that I see the Republican Party as a big demon, so I'm a registered Democrat.

On occasion, I have taken up for fundamentalists. On another board, somebody accused "Christians" of wanting to outlaw Halloween. First, it wouldn't be all Christians, just fundamentalists. Second, all the idiot in the link was doing was encouraging parents not to let their kids celebrate it. The guy was an idiot, but he wasn't trying to outlaw Halloween. I demanded evidence that they wanted to outlaw Halloween. All I got was some example of fundamentalists who didn't ilke the public schools (that they help to pay for) holding Halloween events. I took up for them then, saying that forcing them to pay taxes for a school doing that is like forcing atheists to pay taxes for a school that forces and/or coerces school prayer. I didn't get a response, but I doubt people took that well. It's just that I believe in equal rights. That's why I became a liberal. I also believe that if we're ever going to overthrow fundamentalist power in this country, it's going to have to be by REASSURING them that their rights won't be infringed if they lose their superior grip on the country. Right now, fundamentalists claim that their rights as Christians will be taken away if others have equal rights. We have to convince them that this is not true.

I take up for complete abortion rights (no compromises or apologies). That seems like the progressive stand, but some DUers have not liked it. I've also been a little bit rude about the whole "You should advocate to make abotion rare" thing because as far as I'm concerned 1) Advocating to make it rare is the same as saying that it's immoral. 2) Pro-choicers already do a much better job of reducing the unwanted pregnacy/abortion rate than anti-choicers do. In fact, anti-choicers are making the situation worse with their junk like abstinence only.

I often try to make people see something from the other side if I think they have a point ever once in a while. That doesn't mean that I think the other side is right, but I don't think it's a good idea to just ignore all their points. Ignoring their points and not addressing them is a good way to lose people in the progressive movement.

Okay, that's my list.

Edited: I just thought of one last thing. It really disturbs me how some Democrats on act like their life will be in shambles for the next four years. They can't get a job or whatever. While I'm sure that's true for some people, I think that some people have just gotten to the point of feeling so helpless that they feel they need some sort of messiah to get them out of things. Do you all not realize how many jobs were lost during the Clinton administration and his "free trade"? Michael Moore exposed him for it in the 1990s in his movie "Downsize This". However, people still had confidence in their ability to get a job. People don't have that confidence if there's a Bush in office. Perhaps some of my unpopular opinions of being able to survive Bush without being saved by Kerry might also make me unpopular. That's what I honestly believe though.

[ThorsHammer]

372. I agree with Bush's idea - NOT methods - of democracy in the ME

I think the idea of bringing democracy to the area is a great and overdue idea. With that said, I disagree with the way we went about it. I'd much rather have the Iraqis rise up like the former USSR states, E. Germans, etc did, than invade and occupy by force. From my basic knowledge, it seems that democracy has historically been very limited there, and that this causes wealth to be extremely concentrated at the top at the expense of all the normal cities. I wish there was some way to have a peaceful democracy there, without setting off the religious tensions.

[Jrofosho]

373. flat tax

i would like a flat tax

[ecstatic]

375. I think welfare hurts most people

And I agree with Clinton's move to reform welfare. Of course I'm against corporate welfare as well. I just think that the way it was set up destroyed families throughout the 80s by encouraging single family households with loads of kids (you couldn't get the benefits if you were married, and for each additional child, you got more money).

[Hugin]

377. My support of a strong defense. n/t

[Orsino]

378. That the Democratic Party will not save us.

I see the two-party system as being at the heart of the problems with American politics. The two major parties are money-making ventures responsible to corporate shareholders. While I think it obvious that the rot has completely perverted the Republican Party, the Dems have caught the same disease.

Until we ban or severely curtail private political contributions, and break up the duopoly, our elected representatives will not truly represent us. Then we might find out what "liberal" and "conservative" *really* mean.

[doubleplusgood]

380. curbs on immigration

are needed as part of a comprehensive strategy to stabilize & then, hopefully, reduce U.S. population to a lower, more sustainable level.
Immigration should be limited to 200,000-300,000/year, about the same number of people who voluntarily leave the U.S. each year. Other components: no tax credits for having children, better sex education, better education (in general), universal health care.

The U.S. needs to set an example for environmental responsibility by recognizing that unfettered population growth IS a major problem (global warming anyone ?).

[my_pet_wolf]

383. Barbara Bush (the daughter, not the mother) is kind of cute!

Jenna just looks to much like a evil cross between the parents!

JMHO

[old blue]

386. She seems kind of intelligent too.

I wonder how much the White House pays her for her support....

[davidinalameda]

387. Kevin Shelley needs to go (California SOS)

and other office holders like him

I don't give a rat's butt if someone has a D after their name--if they shouldn't be in office, then we shouldn't support them

[Warren DeMontague]

403. No one has proven anything against Shelley

and I find it very interesting that the media, starting with the SF Chron, decided to pile on him en masse immediately after he started raising serious questions about Diebold and electronic voting.

Maybe Shelley did something worthy of being kicked out of office, but the whole thing still smells fishy as crap to me. I smell a rat, and I think the message to pols was, "don't fuck with Diebold"..

Lastly, if things like no-bid contracts rise to the level of removal from office, is it fair to say that if Shelley can go for contracts valued at around $1,000.00, others should be held accountable for Halliburton and Bechtel contracts valued in the billions?

[Zhade]

389. That many DUers are very misinformed about our government.

They don't fully realize what kind of system we're under, and how corrupt both parties are in different ways. Many sacred cows need to be slaughtered before they'll get it.

This is probably the single most unpopular issue on DU.

[Red State Rebel]

390. I think we have done a lot of good in Iraq

I have two family members there and the stories they tell and the pictures they send home tell a different story than what is told in the news and here.

Flame away.

[rniel]

393. I eat meat

unapologetically and that makes me unpopular on here with some people I guess.

[hughee99]

396. Social safety net...

While I have no issues with having one, I think any plans to care for able-bodied people should include a plan to get them out of the situation they are currently in. I know that this is not possible for all, but for some, the safety net is a way of life, not a temporary helping hand. In some cases, it seems that the government is obligated to help someone who feels no obligation to themselves to do anything to improve their situation. I believe that the government needs to do something to "encourage" them to do for themselves. Those receiving assistance, who are capable of doing something to help the community, should be required to. They should be required to develop skills that will (hopefully) enable them to no longer need assistance. This will hopefully make government assistance a temporary situation for many, and as a result hopefully allow more funding (per person) for those in need.

[googly]

398. I am pro-Business

I am pro environment, including strict anti-pollution laws.
I am for womens right to choose except for the last 2 or 3 months.
I am for strict enforcement of civil rights laws.
I am for freedom to consume whatever anyone wants to smoke or inhale.

But then I am NOT anti-business. I am old enough to know that the
wealth and jobs are ALL created by private businesses. The government
can not exist if there was no businesses employing people and paying
taxes. So the anti-business stand here on DU makes me a minority.

[TexasLawyer]

402. I want a neo-con show trial

with hooded judges and no possibility for appeal. Then, life sentences without parole for all of them-- at Gitmo.

[justiceischeap]

404. I support PETA and what they stand for

I believe we need to get over the lost election and figure out how to win the next one (06).

I think voting irregularities have been around a long time and that the 2000 election just shone a light on them.

[hyphenate]

405. I think I have a couple

that many would consider hot topics for a liberal.

The first is I don't want marijuana or anything like it to become legalized. I've seen first hand what pot does to people who are addicted to it (and yes, you can get addicted to it!), and what repercussions such an addiction can cause. I've seen my sister throw her whole life down the toilet because of her addictions, from pot, to cigarettes, to alcohol and other substance abuse. I don't condone it one smidge.

The other is welfare reform. To me, there is a difference between a hand up and helping out someone in need, and living off the fat of the state or country and staying on welfare as a permanent measure. I don't think that it was intended as a way to keep people lazy/down and out/hung up or in permanent squalor. I think more efforts to reform welfare and give people incentive for staying off it should be enacted, and help people when they're in that position, but not make welfare a way of "living." Believe me, I've seen welfare fraud and I've seen people on it simply living for their check every month, and there are many who are quite capable of working to earn a living, but since welfare takes care of them to the point where they don't have to lift a hand, they don't pursue anything.

There is a difference between an able-bodied person depending on welfare, and someone who is truly in need of the help, but the system just counts them all as one, and hands out checks without even encouragement to improve their lot. In that same vein, I think we need to have some sort of national accountability, instead of states doing their own thing in this respect, because someone who has been cut off from welfare because of fraud can simply go to another state and start the process over again, with no one the wiser that they have had welfare in another state. As a matter of fact, it's one of the ways people get arrested for welfare fraud, in an area where they can hop from one state to another and collect two checks--or sometimes even more.

[dad]

406. I do not think we should have invaded AFGHANISTAN

let alone Iraq. NO ONE agrees with me on that one.
Almost as unpopular is my support for Ralph Nader.
I'm just full of unpopularities, hahaha.
Probably my most unpopular position of all is that I believe the 1969 moon landing was faked. That's not political, though.
I don't believe in God - but actually around DU that isn't so unpopular, hehe.

[resist]

407. Illegal Immigrants

Boy did you open a can of worms - four hundred messages!?

I am very much in favor of immigration, of asylum, of taking care of refugees. But I have a real hard time with the notion that we owe illegal immigrants anything. My son keeps trying to explain to me that it is partially a response to the fact that they pay taxes here and so are due something in return. But I don't care. They totally disrespect our laws and then demand social services. Vincente Fox is certifiable - he actually acts as though his citizens have a right to use US soil anytime they damned well want.

Illegal workers artifically keep prices and wages low. I'm pretty sure plenty of Americans would pick fruit if it paid a living wage, and it should. If that is the REAL cost of food production, we should all pay it.

Sorry, I know I sound a repuke.

[IronLionZion]

415. I never dreamed this would get 400 posts!

crazy :silly:

[donheld]

408. That guns don't kill people

people kill people.

[IronLionZion]

414. bullets too

Chris Rock thinks we need some bullet control!

[El Fuego]

409. I want Gonzalez confirmed, just to make them look bad

Someone just accused me of being a freeper in another thread. But, the reality is that Bush isn't going to pick an attorney general we'll support. He doesn't have to. Anyone he appoints will be Ashcroft II or worse.

At least with Gonzalez, we can continue to pull out the infamous "torture memo," show it to republicans and say, "This is what they are all about." We have written, documented proof that this administration is evil. He gives Bush a bad name... and I think that's good.

[Tigress DEM]

430. We can't prevent the appointment with our numbers, but...

We don't have to lie down and take it either.

I was so proud to be a DEM when I read about all 8 of the Democrats standing together to say WHY Gonzales was a bad appointment.

It isn't enough to let the repubs hang themselves. We are writing history here and our "Morale Outrage" is being represented by the opposition to these insane appointments.

Even if FOX et al.. ignores the truth we need to get it into government documents so that when this country finally comes back to its senses we can verify for the historical record each and every courageous voice that stood up and said, "This isn't right and it's never going to be right until the maddness is stopped. Stop it!"

Another thing, no matter what they can say if DEMS stand up, the one thing they can't say is that we didn't put up a fight. Kennedy and the rest of the Judicial 8 against Gonzales are kicking ass with their arguments against his appointment.

[LiberalTexan]

410. People hate me for telling them that.....

their fad diets aren't good for them or don't work at ALL. They
don't care that I'm getting my degree in nutrition (I finish my internship this May! ) They are "always right". :eyes:

[Erika]

413. The Clinton's hurt our party & I believe in guns

and the right to conceal and carry.

[Tigress DEM]

433. Clinton's (presently or in past?) Conceal & carry - semi automatic?

I think there are a lot of DEMS who simply don't want assault rifles which are only designed to kill people, not for hunting animals, to be protected by the NRA.

Although with Bush in office, I guess I'm glad that law is lax. There may be a time off in the future after all other options have been exhausted when someone will have to storm the White House, take it back and give it back to the people by force.

I won't be toting even if it comes to that, but if there are people who are, I won't lecture them either.

[Warren DeMontague]

417. I'm pro-porn and I vote.

personally preferring the tasteful, aesthetic kind, of course.

[Warren DeMontague]

418. I think people have a right to drive SUVs, but I have a right to think

that they are overcompensating for something in the genital size department. If you "really need" to haul the sled and the dog team through the Yukon, that's one thing.. But let's be honest, folks. There are millions of people driving them because they think they're "cool" (another stellar marketing job from Madison Ave.) and millions more driving them because everybody else is driving them and they don't like having headlights blasting in their rear view mirror from fifteen feet off the ground.

Well, neither do I, but I'll be damned if I'm going to participate in some stupid size contest/arms race on the highways. And my own non-scientific research indicates a statistically higher likelihood that SUV drivers will exhibit signs of extreme self-centeredness, self-absorbtion, and outright discourteous rudeness, not just in their driving but in other behaviors as well. And they're almost ALWAYS the ones with the Bush stickers, here in CA at least.

Now I know that there are decent SUV owners and drivers, many here, hell, my mom is one, despite my incessant liberal harangues on the issue.. but I have to call 'em like I see 'em, and I see them as another symbol of American Conspicuous overconsumption and wretched excess. Just do.

Lastly, they shouldn't be "banned", but they should be subject to AUTO emissions regulation, and there's no way in hell that people should get tax breaks for buying the things.

[Balbus]

419. I think America is the greatest country on earth...

And there's not a place I'd rather live than the good ole' U.S. of A.

[IronLionZion]

420. Well, that better be popular...

I agree with you. There really is no place I'd rather live. :hi:

[LoZoccolo]

421. The DLC is kind-of cool. n/t

[brindis_desala]

423. Most Democrats pay lip service to minority rights

except when it dovetails with or advances their middle class agenda

[Tigress DEM]

427. Can you give some examples?

I believe in letting people - all people - live the way they want to and I respect other's point of view.

I don't know how much I need to DO to be considered as supporting minority rights.

Also, although I've had a rainbow of friends, there is still more of us all being people together than getting political. I mean I hear what they say and I don't discriminate.

I support legislation for protection of minority rights, but on the whole marriage vs civil union issue for instance, I just think as long as you can get your loved one on your insurance policy and we can get hate legislation passed so no one gets away with crimes on a person for any bigotted reason, it might be a worthwhile conscession to keep the religious right out of the discussion. They seem to think they own marriage and trying to convince them otherwise is wasted breath.

I guess to me, the goal is protecting the right of the minorities, not forcing the majority to accept the minority viewpoint as valid. It doesn't matter whether the majority believes being gay is evil, what matters is all Americans have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Of the 3, the first 2 are most important and if both sides give a little on the 3rd, I think people should relax a little and just agree to disagree.

[brindis_desala]

440. just basic equality.

Just look at the last election: No one cared about the state of poor black precincts until it was WAY too late- now everyone's jumped on the bandwagon because Kerry "lost".

How many times did the poor get mentioned in the campaign?

Did anyone outside the ghetto wonder why no one was addressing the fact that AIDS and infant mortality in the black and brown communities are both worse in the USA than in half the third world.

Or that they have much lower access to medical care which translates in shorter life expectancy.

That thanks to discriminatory sentencing laws 90% of imprisoned drug-offenders are black or latino even though the user/distribution profiles more closely mirror those of the general population.

Or that public housing funds are being cut?

[Tigress DEM]

447. I think I was naive and overwhelmed by life....

I didn't pay attention to mainstream news. I could tell it was a lie.
But it wasn't until the Democratic process failed so obviously that I went to the internet in search of the truth.

I still had faith in American process. I thought because the press finally came out with information on vote fraud that it would be dealt with accordingly and in MN where I am, there were Democratic challengers out to prevent voter harrassment and such. So I thought all was in place to secure a fair election and in a fair fight after the debates I thought Bush was toast.

I never imagined the level of corruption in place or the low lows this administration was willing to stoop to in order to win. I had this gut feeling that when David Duke (the KKK front runner for Prez one year) lost and he just smiled, that there would be someone in his place someday that would do through deception what he had failed to do outright, put a KKK man in the White House.

Even though I should have known better I was not afraid enough to imagine that Bush was the man the KKK had been waiting for and that the same tactics that work on an episode of the Dukes of Hazzard would succeed nationally.

I've believed that repubs balance the budget on the backs of the poor since the Reagan years. Before that I didn't know much. Met some politically active Nuns. (imagine)

In MN our "surplus" that generated tax refunds for the rich were stolen out of the public school funds and various programs to the poor and then we approved a tax referrendum to fund the school shortages.

I was poor for most of my life and I'm white, so when I think of the poor I don't automatically think black vs white. In fact a lot of blacks and latinos I knew were better off than us.

My dad was a disabled vet, but he didn't want my mom working because there was the possibility her ex tracked her down once and tried to kill her by blowing up the restuarant where she worked early in the morning when she was the only one who would be there.

Looking back I can see that I should have been more vigilant, but I thought our country really was the land of the free and home of the brave and all I had to do was vote and then get active with the right man in office.

Even though he doesn't throw out the race card my sense is it's more because he doesn't see blacks as "less than". He certainly felt they deserved better treatment in the Vietnam war and my guess is he hasn't changed in his respect for those blacks who served and took greater casualites than white units.

But it's weird. If a person is white and speaks up for Black "issues" you almost want to remove the "black" part in it, because it SHOULDN'T be a "black" issue to be poor and live in the ghetto.

It seems that it should be an issue that anyone has to live in the ghetto. Did you know Canada doesn't really have ghettos? Neither do they fear blacks as a lot of people in the US do. I'm understanding the connections you brought up, but there has been a part of me that doesn't know how to talk about this stuff without offending black people or having repubs turn it around and say I'm using the race issue to prove a point. If the point stands alone, is it still a race issue?

[brindis_desala]

452. you are 100% correct this should NOT be a racial issue

and I should have said that these are issues that affect minorities disproportionately but NOT exclusively by any means. That's the tragedy of our country. Somehow poverty gets overlooked because somehow if you're white and poor it's YOUR fault when the fault lies in the system. Unfortunately when Reagan spoke of welfare queens it was code for black and lazy and a lot of people are manipulated into believing that discrimination only affects people of color. And yes I have to concur, this is an issue of HUMAN rights and it is always framed badly but the Congressional Black Caucus and the Latinos are only ones willing talk about much less fix the deep divide in this country.

[mdmc]

424. 2nd Am. purist

kick in my door, you get a bullet.

[Tigress DEM]

425. Guess I should cancel that Birthday Gram then..

[mdmc]

462. just knock first, ,lol

(I don't own a gun).

[MikeG]

426. I think that Katherine Harris is hot.

[Tigress DEM]

428. Do you like Ken Blackwell too, or is it just a hormone thing?

[MikeG]

429. Hormone thing.

[Tigress DEM]

431. Ann Coulter too? Before she opens her mouth?

[MikeG]

432. No. Katherine Harris is actually pretty. Just misguided.

[Warren DeMontague]

450. Is it flaming to say "Ewwww"?

Guess you're not a fan of the natural look, huh?



And by "natural" I mean, "alive".

[Adelante]

438. What a great question

Because I support Wes Clark, whether or not he ever runs for office again in his life, I am flamed just for being alive. Setting that aside, I have rarely been flamed on DU. Once I wondered out loud if socialized medicine was working as well as we think in Canada (I agree, anything is better than the private insurance system in the U.S.) and another time I mentioned human rights abuses in Cuba.

[Tigress DEM]

448. Haven't gotten flamed, but people ignore me.

I did spend some time trying to turn a thread around that was bashing repubs simply because I felt bashing is beneath us.

[patricia92243]

443. My STRONG religious views.

[Tigress DEM]

449. As long as you let others have theirs it shouldn't be an issue.

What bothers me is when people try to convert me to their way of believing.

[Warren DeMontague]

451. My UNAPOLOGETIC Atheism.

Oh, wait... I guess that's, like, four most unpopular views.

[Adelante]

455. Flamed for Atheism?

That one surprises me.

[Warren DeMontague]

456. Some people take the mere assertion of disbelief to be a threat

or some kind of attack.

I'm fully of the opinion that I don't care WHAT religion anyone chooses to believe in, it just should be left out of the public square-- and elementary school science classes.

But there is certainly a contingent, even around here, that gets huffy when unbelievers speak up.

[Zynx]

463. You don't get flamed on the DU for being atheist.

Atheists and Agnostics are a majority of the posters. I happen to be a Catholic and I get flamed for that.

[Warren DeMontague]

466. Some religious people can't handle expressions of disbelief

and take it as a personal attack. I've seen it time, and time again.

I don't have any problem with anyone's personal beliefs, Catholic or otherwise. I don't appreciate it when they try to give me "the good news", I don't like it when people's private faith or views (such as the Catholic prohibition against any form of birth control whatsoever) causes them to attempt to legislate other people's private morality... and I certainly don't think expressions of a particular religous faith belong in government, but I could care less what people believe about the Universe in their own heads.

[d_b]

467. I believe we lost the election the old fashion way.

[njdemocrat106]

468. My views

I still love John Kerry and John Edwards. Until November 3, they helped me to believe in my fellow Americans, and I think they lost because 59 million of us are either too stupid or just not paying attention. I am not a big fan of abortion, either, but I definitely don't think it should be criminalized. I think we can reduce abortion if we help educate people better about safe sex (As a Catholic, I think that if the Church is going to continue to be against abortion, it should back down on its ban of safe sex.) I'm pro-gay marriage, too. I think it's a wonderful thing.