Say what? Hillary criticized for wanting "common ground?"

[wndycty]

Talk about biting your nose to spite your face.

Please tell me where Hillary talks about reversing Roe v. Wade and tell me where she said anything that hints at puting restrictions on a woman's right to choose.

Those of who are pro-choice believe in a woman's right to choose, but please tell me what is wrong with reducing the number of UNWANTED PREGNANCIES and thus reducing the number of abortions performed.

Do those of us who support a woman's right to choose want to see abortions performed? Not me. I want them to be safe, rare and legal.

As long as we work to insure a woman's right to choose what the hell is wrong with Hillary's position?

ON EDIT: Its wrong for Hillary to find "common ground" with conservatives on this issue, however its GREAT for Howard Dean to reach out to guys with Confederate flags on their pick-ups? Lets be consistent.

[mopinko]

1. i agree

nuts. people are nuts.

[wndycty]

4. It just shows how partisan we ALL are

There is so much venom on both sides that we are ignoring the real issues. Keep and protect a woman's right to choose, but limit unwanted pregnancies.

[soleft]

2. This is something new in addition to her speech on Faith Based

Initiatives?

[CWebster]

6. Yep

she is equivocating on the language concerning abortion to seek "common ground" with anti-choice forces.

[noamnety]

11. "equivocating on the language"?

or "reframing?"

That's a great example of how you can frame an issue to sound negative. :)

I suspect the people who don't like Hillary are finding excuses to read things into her words that aren't there.

[CWebster]

15. it is negative.

She is reframing it with moral judgement.

[noamnety]

26. Her speech never made a moral judgment. (nt)

[CWebster]

34. "tragic and sad"

are sweeping generalizations of all women's mindsets.

[noamnety]

48. acknowleging emotions

is not a moral judgment.

[soleft]

23. found link in LBN

[Turbineguy]

3. "Common Ground"

isn't that like being a uniter, not a divider?

How did we get such idiocy in this country?

[wndycty]

7. Do we hate them so much. . .

. . .that we must never look for solutions. Keep abortion SAFE and LEGAL, but also keep it RARE! If we improve sex education, make contraception readily available and improve socio economic conditions there will be less unwanted pregnancies and less of a demand for abortions.

If the anti-abortionists want to reduce abortions let them find a common ground with us, because we are not going to back track on a woman's right to choose.

[CWebster]

9. rhetoric and nothing more

Pro-choice does bridge the gap. What more do you want?

Clinton is just triangulating by using the language to court political favor. It will win her neither.

[Randers]

29. Trouble is she wasn't advocating reducing abortions

through better sex-ed and accessible contraception. She was advocating it through abstinence to please the pro-life religious right.

There is a big difference there.

No real sex-ed & a discouragement from contraception Vs. Sex-ed /contraception - expecting responsibility with sex.

[Cheswick2.0]

56. we aren't going to backtrack on choice....wanna bet?

I'll take that bet. We have already back tracked. Parental notification, waiting periods, "PBA" ban?

[htuttle]

5. If you give these people an inch, they take two miles

Have we learned nothing from the last four years? it's impossible to find common ground with the Congressional Republicans (or the President)since they do not act in good faith. They will lie as it suits them, and then do whatever they were going to do in the first place.

Any moves toward compromise or reconcilliation on the Democrats' part will be pointed to as proof of 'flip-flopping' in the future when it's useful.

They can't help it. It's their nature.

[mopinko]

13. yeah but

they are rolling up those miles NOW! the are taking the fight to pharmacists who won't dispense the pill. we cannot fight them on the narrow barricade of roe. in the "common ground" lies the big picture.

[yinkaafrica]

62. You have outlined the reality of the situation

Repukes take everything and give back nothing.
Hillary made it sound like Dems should reassess the
repuke view toward abortion and maybe meet them half way.
That is utter nonsense. This is pandering we cannot afford.

[Freddie Stubbs]

77. How is preventing unwanted pregnencies "giving these people an inch?"

:shrug:

[Freddie Stubbs]

88. ***Crickets***

;)

[orpupilofnature57]

8. It's hard to be a democrat!an excellent article by Todd Smythe DU SEPT 3 04

My only problem is the nulifing state"progressive" smacks of comprimise for the sake of geting along,fuck that shit, thats how we got here *

[Walt Starr]

10. Hillary is a Neodem and Neodems are the enemy as much as Neocons

Period.

[orpupilofnature57]

21. was fdr tommy jefferson bill clinton jfk rfk as bad as Rover???

what?

[Walt Starr]

40. I will say one thing about Bill Clinton

He was the best Republican president in recent memory.

[wndycty]

46. This from the poster . . .

. . .who had a knee jerk reaction to Barack Obama which ended up in some BarackBashing and ended up recanting it later. I just love when people go around calling good Dems Republicans. LOL

[Walt Starr]

47. Bill Clinton has proven disastrous for the Democratic Party

try and deny it.

And of late, my original reaction to Barack Obama is proving well founded.

[wndycty]

49. LOL

:kick: So you are now recanting your recanting of your Obama criticism? LOL Talk about decisive.

[Walt Starr]

52. I'm saying I'm extermely disappointed in him

He is becoming a lacky. He should be standing behind Barbara Boxer in opposition to Rice.

I also noticed you cannot counter the fact that the Clintons have been disastrous for the Democrats, so much so that they have ne4arly destroyed the party.

[wndycty]

57. He has been a Senator for less than a month. . .

. . .well I'll make sure when he is up for re-election in 2010 that we won't count on you for support.

As far as Bill Clinton is concerned I don't agree with you. . .its simple as that. We had eight years of peace and prosperity. If you want to call him a Republican go right ahead. As always you judgement is always accurate.

[Walt Starr]

60. Of course it is

My judgement regarding politics applies to me and how I react.

After February 12, I may become more anti-Democratic than I am currently anti-Republican, so don't count on any support from me in the future if that day goes the wrong way.

[wndycty]

67. And what will it take for you to become more anti-Democrat. . .

. . .I think I know, but you know what happens when you assume.

[Walt Starr]

71. I already told you, the unfolding of events on February 12

That said it all.

[wndycty]

73. Which means what?

I think I know, but spell it out. Make a bold statement, a declaration of your beliefs. What is going to make you take your ball and go home. Tell me brutha, tell me.

[Walt Starr]

75. NBD

That says it all, brutha.

[wndycty]

76. Thank you. . .

. . .and that is the only reason I want him to win. Because too many grassrooters will take their ball and go home like mature adults if he does not win. I support him because I don't want to deal with the bullshit and whining that will take place if he does not.

[Walt Starr]

80. Actually, we won't be taking our ball and going home

we'll be taking our ball and going off to form a new team because the old one doesn't want us any more.

[wndycty]

81. LOL . . .well hopefully. . .

. . .it won't come to that, but if you don't get your way do what you have to do.

[Walt Starr]

82. It's not about "getting our way"

We see only one hope left for the party. If that hope is gone, the party is dead to us.

[LoZoccolo]

83. You obviously don't "get" Dean then.

He never presented himself as the one hope left for the party, but presented his campaign as a culmination of the efforts of all his supporters.

_{NOTE: I was a Dean supporter.}

[Walt Starr]

84. He doesn't present himself as that

but that is how I perceive the current situaiton in the party and my perception is all I have to go on.

[wndycty]

85. Its a shame you feel that way. . .

. . .I think its wrong, however our party is in a crisis and we can't afford to lose support. I feel like we are being held hostage by those who say "We see only one hope left for the party. If that hope is gone, the party is dead to us." It sucks, I would like to support Dean because I believe him to be the best to lead the party, however I support him because of the Civil War I fear if he were not chosen.

It will be interesting to see if his supporters allow him to be pragmatic or will they expect him to be unabashed reform they believe him to be.

[Walt Starr]

86. My beliefs in this regards are based upon the actions of the party

"lack-of-leadership" over the past six years.

[Robbien]

27. DLC/Neodems want Roemer/Scaife as the DNC chair

That says it all.

[SmokingJacket]

12. MSM is trying to divide Democrats by implying that

Clinton is caving in to the repub "majority."

Let's hope we don't fall for this.

If there is common ground between dems and repubs it would be in reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies: Hillary's all about better public health, always has been, no change there.

Frankly, I don't think the repubs give two hoots about unwanted pregnancies, though if they're anti-abortion they should be.

[wndycty]

14. MSM? I think the DU is doing a pretty damned good job

. . .I would think many of the DUers who are jumping all over Hillary are not led by the MSM (c'mon they are too smart for that, they know better) so I'm assuming they understand what she was saying and they are still revolted by it.

[SmokingJacket]

87. Yes... DU is all about bickering over the fine points of party issues

Nothing wrong with that.

My point is that the MSM is **deliberately** trying to sow divisiveness among Democrats. Making H's comments into a big issue in the MSM is a way to get party people to turn against her.

But honestly, she hasn't said anything new.

No one has an abortion because it's fun. Women don't WANT abortions; we want the ability to have them if we need them. We -- R's and D's -- should agree that making unwanted pregnancies less common is a good thing.

If we start attacking Hillary en masse (and she's not my favorite politician of all time (honor goes to Dean)) we're just destroying the party from the inside and breaking up opposition to B* into tiny little ineffective camps. Those uber-loyal repubs win again.

[demnan]

16. Trying to find common ground

is not the same as caving in on abortion rights.

I like the Clintons, call me a centrist or a neodem or whatever, but things were a hell of a lot better when her husband was President.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. This Board Is Too Much...

On another thread there's a reference to a yet to be identified cabal of Democrats who want to repeal the New Deal...



I am willing to put my money where my mouth is... A third party can hold the money in escrow....


Some of the candidates people here are flacking for have as much chance of becoming president as Eminem has of marrying one of the Bush twins...


Some folks have no fucking idea of what can be achieved in our political system at this moment in history....

Everything else is commentary...

[CWebster]

20. You mean like Leberman who is just now

rallying around Bush?

You mean he reflects the reality better?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. That's A Lovely False Dichotomy

eom

[rodeodance]

31. I believe Hil. is on the right track. We have lost groud for over 20

years with the abortion issue-and until this mantra-Making it rare-gets into the brains of ALL (and supporting with funding)-----we WILL lose more ground. And there is such a thing as MODERATE Republicans that will listen and that she can work with. In my book it is both the screaming Right AND the screaming Left that is the problem--and not only on this issue.

[mopinko]

74. and lost ground mostly

because they have controlled the language. i applaud efforts to take back the language.

[Q]

18. The Bushies consider compromise to be a weakness...

...and bipartisanship as 'date rape'.

I'm sure they love the fact that Hillary and others are helping to weaken the Democratic stance on choice.

While Hillary is 'triangulating'...the Bushies are planning to END a 'woman's right to choose'. Just more political manipulation and opportunism from the 'new' Democratic mindset.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Any Sane Person Would Say That Abortion Should Be Safe, Legal, And Rare

eom

[wndycty]

22. Yeah but according to some on the DU. . .

. . .a true progressive would say that abortions should safe, legal and frequent.

[CWebster]

30. The true progressive says

It is a personal affair, not something to grandstand about.

[mopinko]

37. not to mention

available at drive thrus on every corner, and qualify for frequent flier miles.
come on people.

[CWebster]

39. As opposed to, say

rusty coat hangers and back alleys?

[Q]

28. And 'sane' people have been saying it for decades....

...but what does this have to do with Democrats collaborating with the corrupt Bush government?

Is it that the moderates simply don't get it? Is it that they don't really understand what the party and our nation is up against?

How many times do Democrats have to be 'bitch slapped' by the Bushie Republicans before they realize that there is no compromising with these criminals? The answer seems to be the same number of times Lucy pulled the football away as Charlie Brown was about to kick it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. Who Said To Compromise With Bush*?

Off the top of my head there's not one part of his agenda I agree with....

All I am saying is that abortion should be safe, legal, and rare as any sane and ethical person would do...


Oh, and another poster said it's a personal decision...


Of course it is but it's a decision to make wisely, judiciously, and after much deliberation....

[CWebster]

36. That is none of your business. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. It's None Of My Business

If I accept your premise then why is it my business if a man starves to death because he has no money to buy food or a woman dies of breast cancer because she can't afford health insurance..... The government makes it my business because it takes my money in the form of taxes to make sure these horrors don't happen or don't happen often...


Who's going to play God and tell us when something is our business and something isn't?

[CWebster]

45. ahhhhh, you? nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. Is It None Of My Business If Someone Starves Or Goes Without Medical Care?

[Cheswick2.0]

53. apples and oranges

Is it any of you business if my great uncle stan has a vasectomy because he doesn't want to be a parent?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

58. Nope

but it's my business if Uncle Stan is having sex without a condom....

[Demeter]

25. She Doesn't Have To say It Out Loud

A wink is as good as a nod when you are selling out your sisters. The Religious Right will find it even if it isn't there, run with it screaming and waving knives, and we and our daughters will be right back where we started 35 years ago.

[Siyahamba]

32. Common ground, yes

Compromising our principles, no.

[wndycty]

33. And nothing she said talks about compromising principles. . .

:kick:

[Jackie97]

38. Here's what's wrong with Hilary's position.

First, I fear that she's going to become Bush lite.

More importantly, pro-choicers are already the ones working to reduce unwanted pregnacies. They work to get birth control pills covered by insurance companies. They work to bring REAL SEX EDUCATION (not that abstinence only stuff, which I proved on the abortion board has lies in its curriculum). They try to make it as easy as possible for women to have access to contraception. They also advocate making the morning after pill over the counter to prevent pregancy.

What do the so called right ot life movement and/or the Republicans do?

They advocate for the right of an insurance company to not cover birth control pills (while Viagra gets a free ride!).

They're pushing abstinence only "education". Now, wanted pregnacies and abortions are GOING UP. Bush is causing abortion rates TO RISE. This policy is will bring an increase in STDs according to experts. Very pro-life of these people, NOT! Very immoral of these people IMO.

Pro-choicers also often advocate more affordable or free child care, welfare, and other social programs to help out poor women that might otherwise have an abortion. Republicans would have these programs dismantled if they had their way, so abortion rates go up for that reason.

Pro-choicers HAVE ALWAYS been the ones trying to reduce unwanted pregnacies, NOT ANTI-CHOICERS. They're not interested in reducing pregnacy or abortion. They're interested in controlling women and children. Well, it's not working, and abortion rates are rising.

Second, we shouldn't advocate that abortion be made rate. Would we advocate that open heart surgery be made rare? I've never heard that one. Saying that one wants abortion to become rare is the same thing as saying that it's immoral. Immoral, meaning murder. Since the AGI institute says about almost 50% of American women get an abortion sometime in their life, THIS IS SAYING THAT ALMOST 50% OF WOMEN ARE MURDERERS!

Pro-choicers already advocate plenty of access to contraception, sex education, and many of times advocate social programs to help the poor. This has an affect of reducing abortion rates (even if that's not our original intention). So, the burden of "reducing abortion" should not lie on our shoulders. It lies on the shoulders of Republicans and anti-choicers for imposing immoral policies about stuff like abstinence only.

It is WAY PASSED TIME to stop allowing the anti-choice and Republican crowd to own so called morality. I believe our politics are more moral. It's time we defended that instead of saying "I know you're more moral than me, so I'll try to be more like you".

Republicans and anti-choicers are not more moral than us. Don't allow them to own a market on morality.

[CWebster]

41. If only Hillary said that.

Well said!

[mopinko]

50. 'Would we advocate that open heart surgery be made rare? '

yes, i would. i would advocate that people eat a healthy diet, exercise, etc. and don't end up on the table.
really, every thing you say is true. i am as prochoice as they come. but this issue will continue to break for the other side until we find a way to really address the fact that it is an unpleasant situation. nobody wants an abortion like they want a new car. they want an abortion like they want that open heart surgery.
if hillary is trying to find a frame for the issue that acknowledges this stone-cold-hard fact, more power to her. i am in favor of speaking the truth, no matter what. there is no other way.

[CWebster]

55. How do you claim to speak for the truth? nt

[mopinko]

59. that's not what i meant

i meant that i am in favor of dealing with issues in a straitforward and honest manner. even if it does not seem tactically smart.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. Sounded Like Common Sense...

I'll bet that's the one thing even George Bush and say, ummmmmmmmmm, Fidel Castro would agree on...


"Eat a healthy diet and exercise"....



or folks shouldn't take abortion lightly......

[mopinko]

72. don't even have to go that far

'folks shouldn't take abortion lightly'-
i'll settle for- most people don't take abortion lightly. most people who need abortions don't take them lightly. i don't even want to say should. i want to stick to facts, and acknowledge feelings.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. I Doubt A Sane Person "Wants" An Abortion...

Abortion is often the result of unplanned pregnancies....


We should do what we can to educate folks to avoid them....


Abstinencce for minors who are emotionally or physically not ready for sex.....

Education about birth control for folks who have sex who don't want a pregnancy etcetera...


I always thought sex education was a progressive idea...

[mopinko]

79. it's odd

that from the beginning we have talked about this. told the sad stories of women's individual choices.
maybe there is just so much about this issue that is unsaid and under the surface. maybe we spend too much time digging under, and not enough talking about it at ground level where most of the sheeple are.

[CWebster]

64. Like abstinance?

Yeah, that's real.

[mopinko]

69. wtf

are you talking about? i did not say anything about abstinance. i would no more refuse a woman's right to abortion than i would tell a person who needs a bypass that they can't have it cause they ate steak.
quit jerking your knee and think.

[Skidmore]

42. I would have more respect for Hillary if she wouldn't wait

until it is politically expedient or safe to take a position. I've become less enchanted with her over the past couple of years because she appears to stick her finger in the air first to determine the prevailing winds.

[moobu2]

44. Personaly, I agree with Hillary's strategy n/t

[LoZoccolo]

54. I think it's an anger management thing, or checkers vs. chess.

People may get into politics to the extent you see people doing here because of a few issues they are concerned about, but maybe after a while it just becomes an emotional fight thing, and anything that doesn't look like raw pummeling of the other side doesn't satiate their anger enough. Plus I still think a lot of people here are engaged in a simpler game than our politicians are, the whole checkers vs. chess phenomenon.

But it's good having you back! Hopefully I'll see you at that thing on Thursday where I can gripe about the post-election DU climate.

[Walt Starr]

61. Yeah, and Kerry played chess

:eyes:

::::cough:::BULLSHIT::::cough:::\

:eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. Without Getting Into The Checkers And Chess Debate

Some folks use politics as a cathartic device...


I am more concerned about winning elections without compromising our principles then waging a slash and burn campaign...

[Walt Starr]

66. I'm up for a slash and burn campaign

if neither party represents my core values any longer, and when we get to a point where the Neodems take complete control of the democratic Party, neither party will represent my core values because one will be the clone of the other.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. I Defer To No One In My Contempt For Bush Or Pugs....

All I am saying is anger is no substitute for wisdom in furthering our goals....


We all know Bush* and the Republicans are bankrupting us at home and making us pariahs abroad but going on quixotic missions or eating our own is not the answer....

[Walt Starr]

70. I disagree

The only way to turn this around is to eliminate the traitors who have sucked at the PNAC teet for the past four years first. Dump them from public office.

Anything short of that will be a Pyrrhic victory at best!

[Kitsune]

89. If we have anything more in common with the right

we'll be republicans.