It's official: John Kerry "crossed the line" when he named Mary Chaney

[dolstein]

From ABC News:

Poll: Most Condemn Debate Comment:

A Tempest on the Mention of Vice President Cheney's Lesbian Daughter Analysis by GARY LANGER and DALIA SUSSMAN

Most likely voters agree with what John Kerry said about homosexuality at Wednesday's presidential debate — but not with the way he said it.

Fifty-seven percent say being homosexual is the way people are, not the way they choose to be — up from its level a decade ago. But likely voters by 2-1 also call it inappropriate for Kerry, when asked that question, to have noted that Vice President Dick Cheney's daughter is a lesbian. Cheney himself mentioned his daughter's sexual orientation in a campaign appearance in August.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2004/story?id=169306...

A few observations: First, is the headline actually justified? The word "condemn" seems a little harsh. Second, why the hell was ABC News devoting resources to polling on this question? Third, you've got to (grudgingly) admire the ruthless efficiency of the Republican Party when it comes to imprinting their talking points on the body politics. And anyone who thinks that the carefully choreographed episode of righteous indignation didn't have an effect on shaping public opinion is kidding themselves.

[PretzelWarrior]

1. the right-wing hate machine works it's magic.

bunch of f*cking hypocritical asshats in the heartland.

[dolstein]

47% of respondents also said Kerry was a flip flopper

Just kidding.

[flpoljunkie]

38. Human Rights Campaign Responds to Lynne Cheney Remarks...

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Press_Room&CONT...

‘President Bush missed one more chance to denounce discrimination last night so it is bewildering that Lynne Cheney instead attacked Senator Kerry,’ said HRC President Cheryl

WASHINGTON — Human Rights Campaign President Cheryl Jacques made the following statement regarding comments made last night by Lynne Cheney following the presidential debate.

“President Bush missed one more chance to denounce discrimination last night so it is bewildering that Lynne Cheney instead attacked Senator Kerry.

“Senator Kerry made clear that gay Americans should have the same basic rights, responsibilities and protections as every other American.

“Vice President Cheney first discussed his own daughter in the context of this issue two months ago and it is not surprising that Senator Kerry mentioned her experience as emblematic of millions of gay Americans.

“Senator Kerry was speaking to millions of American families who have hard-working, tax-paying gay friends and family members.”

According to The Associated Press, “Lynne Cheney accused Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry of pulling a ‘cheap and tawdry political trick,’ apparently for invoking her daughter’s sexuality in his debate with President Bush.”

View HRC’s ad featuring Vice President Dick Cheney discussing his daughter, Mary Cheney, and his views on leaving marriage law up to the

http://anon.newmediamill.speedera.net/anon.newmediamill...

The Human Rights Campaign is the largest national lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender political organization with members throughout the country. It effectively lobbies Congress, provides campaign support and educates the public to ensure that LGBT Americans can be open, honest and safe at home, at work and in the community.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. it is???? nt

[Democat]

3. The media told them that it was wrong - most don't even know what was said

The media asks people, "Do you agree with us that Kerry shouldn't have insulted Cheney's daughter?"

Is anyone surprised that the pro-Bush media made this the big issue of the third debate?

[Lefta Dissenter]

6. or

Do you agree that Kerry shouldn't have outed Cheney's daughter?

[Cha]

12. If they put it like that..

"insulted" ..well then, of course ..the stupids would say no..he shouldn't have done this.

I heard some callers on c-span this morning who seperately made all the points we have made here on DU.

The keyes insult that was totally ignored..that cheney brought it up himself in one of the debates..and one caller ..a gay man from California said he had No Problem with Kerry saying that and what was despicable was trying to place an amendment to stamp out gay marriage.

[Cocoa]

4. people aren't thinking straight yet

soon they'll ask themselves, what exactly is wrong with what Kerry said?

[sangh0]

5. Did repukes "cross the line" when they "outed" Valerie Plame?

Did bush* "cross the line" when he lied about how he doesn't care about finding OBL?

[dolstein]

8. Sadly, ABC didn't poll on that

He who asks the questions rules the world.

[Leilani]

7. I know theres a lot of disagreement here,

but I thought it was unecessary, & therefore could cause trouble.

both sides are playing this to the max, but it is a loser for Kerry.

[AndyTiedye]

39. ANYTHING Can be a Loser for Kerry when the Media Spin Machine Cranks Up

It was a perfectly good answer to a whoring question.

The media is trying to turn it into a gaffe, and they will succeed in convincing some people.
You can fool some of the people all of the time.

Anyone who is that suceptable to media spin won't be voting our way anyway.

[necso]

9. It's official: They're getting desperate. n/t

[Cha]

15. You're right!

That's what's fucking "official"!

[SidDithers]

10. OMFG...how many threads have you started on this topic...

give it up, let it die.

Sid

[sangh0]

13. AT least 17 in the last 24 hours by my count

.

[Shopaholic]

14. The story is NOT dying--it's not going away-

and it's pretty evident at this point that it's hurting Kerry. The media aren't going to back away from it because it's their worse fucking nightmare for Kerry/Edwards to get elected. Do you think the Repugs are going to give it up now that they KNOW that they're making inroads with it? Let's be realistic here--burying OUR heads in the sand won't make this go away. We need to fight it and call the media on this and ask them just what is wrong with Mary Cheney being gay? Are they trying to say that there is something wrong with being gay? And why is it a problem for John Kerry to state a fact in that debate when Shrub lied his ass off all during the debate--and esp. about OBL and they've let that completely slide into oblivion?

[Cha]

17. No, the media is going away from it...

so we will counteract it!

[SidDithers]

18. Alright, then, continue the comments in one of the 25 other threads

already on the go. All this repetition is freakin nuts.

Sid

[sangh0]

22. and scmirage will make sure of that

.

[Shopaholic]

29. Oh please-let's get real here--we can't run away from this--

we're in it and we've got to figure out the best way to get out of it. I think that will only happen if we call the media on this bullshit. I'm furious that this has become an issue. There are 10 known lies (see Rapid Response Center on John Kerry Website) that the media should be talking about. But we can't pretend that this story is going to go away and stick our heads in the sand and pretend that this is not hurting Kerry--it is and that scares me to death. We all need to e-mail, call, or whatever every single cable news story ASAP and tell them we're sick of this story and that they need to move on--that's the point I'm trying to make.

Where was the Cheney outrage when Alan Keyes singled out their daughter? Where was their outrage when SC Senate Candidate Jim DeMint said that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to teach students in SC classrooms? We need to hammer away at the media to expose the Cheneys and the Repugs for the hypocrites they are--that's what I'm trying to say!

[TexasThoughtCriminal]

23. I'm concerned too

This is the second day now. But it fits with the pukes' tactics. To their base, being called gay or lesbian is an insult of the first degree. Plut it keeps the gay issue up front. Keeps the orcs stirred up.

[shawmut]

11. Did Bush cross the line when he lied about the OBL remark?

Or how about did he cross the line when he made those remarks in the first place?

[Shopaholic]

30. That's the question we need to ask the media--so they'll ask

it on the air and we can get them to move on!

[Eric J in MN]

16. I don't admire Republicans just because media whores parrot them.

The media whores want Bush to win, so of course they will go along with whatever bunk they're given.

[Cha]

19. Oh, that we didn't have to live at the mercy

if mediawhores..Nostalic for the days of Edward R. Murrow and Walter Chronkite and Eric Severide!

[farmbo]

20. Who's the GENIUS in the Kerry/Edwards campaign who suggested that?

Both Edwards and Kerry "drove the point home" by disclosing Mary Cheney in response to debate questions concerning gay rights. It was scripted, deliberate and obviously "coached" by some six-figure political consultant in Kerry's inner circle.

Let's face it. It was stupid. It cost us, albeit temporally, four points.

People outside the beltway aren't comfortable with this topic.

Apologize...get on with the campaign...and fire the genius who scripted it.

[NightOwwl]

28. If Kerry hadn't made this "disgraceful" comment,

BushCo would be up in arms about something else. Don't you know by now that Kerry can't do anything right!

[AntiFascist]

33. It wouldn't have cost so much if someone in the media could drive home....

the simple FACT that Mary Cheney is being used by the GOP in a very out way to talk to gay groups and persuade them to vote Republican. This clearly demonstrates the double standard and two-faced characterization of Bush and his supporters.

[gratuitous]

21. Except that Kerry didn't name Mary Cheney

Odd, but true. Here's the excerpt from the transcript at the New York Times website:

"We're all God's children, Bob, and I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was. She's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not a choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage, because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it. And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. I think we have to respect that.

"The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that, I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace, you can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth.

"Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws, and their proving today - every state - that they can manage them adequately."

__________________________

Run a word search yourself, but the name "Mary" was never uttered by John Kerry.

[davidjhorrell]

27. That may be way...

some seem to be interpreting it as an attack on the "VP". If Kerry had just said "Mary Cheney",the comment might not have sounded so ambiguous.

[dolstein]

31. But if you polled people on this question . . .

I best most would say that he did. Sure, they'd be wrong. But what matters most -- reality, or peoples' perception of reality?

Interesting tidbit -- a few years after JFK was assasinated, there was a poll conducted in which people were asked how they voted in the 1960 election. JFK won in a landslide. It's amazing what people are able to talk themselves into believing.

[gratuitous]

32. And what "crossed the line"?

I mean, as long as we're talking about bullshit non-issues ginned up by an increasingly desperate Republican campaign trying to shake the stink of death, what did Kerry say about Dick Cheney's daughter that was soooooo terrible as to "cross the line"?

[NYC Liberal]

34. Speaking of which...

where's this 'over-the-line' remark I keep hearing about? I don't see any there...

[gratuitous]

37. Thank you!

My point exactly.

[NYC Liberal]

24. I didn't hear any 'outrage' when Alan Keyes

called her a 'selfish hedonist.' :eyes:

[0007]

36. That's different Allen is a man of the cloth and a repuke! LOL!!

[Edwardsgroupie]

25. The problem is how is was said

Even though the topic was gay marriage, I remember being struck at how awkward and out-of-the-blue the comment seemed. I think it seemed like Kerry was just waiting for the topic to come up so he could mention the VEEP's daughter. I am sure the purpose of the comment was, like for Edwards, to make sure the religious conservatives watching KNEW this factoid about their hero Cheney.
However, it came off as preplanned and even perjorative.
I think it would have worked better had the comment been segued a bit smoother into the debate, although we don't know if the opening would have presented itself.

[Leilani]

26. I have heard several times that Mary Beth Cahill

gave an interview & said Mary Cheney was {fair game}.

If this is true, is was dumb, dumb, dumb.

From a tactical point, I cannot figure out what they hoped to gain.

And from a tactical point it was a mistake.

[Captain Lance Bass]

35. C'mon people fawk the polls

Like a bunch of scared little mice when we see apoll that doesnt go our way.
Nobody VOTES based on what the polls say GET IT?

The only poll that matters in Nov 2

way too much wasted time here worried about this poll or that.

[Leilani]

40. I do not give a crap about the polls

Now the topic should be Bush mistakes during the debates.

It is too close to the election for dumb mistakes.

[Edwardsgroupie]

42. Agreed 100%

If the remark weren't meant as perjorative, Cahill's comment sure made it seem so.

[DesEtoiles]

41. good

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lancdem]

44. Cheney himself has talked about his daughter being gay

many times publicly. How does Kerry's comment hurt the Cheneys? He didn't insult them, or their daughter. She works on her dad's campaign, for God's sake. That's not political exploitation?

[progressivebydesign]

45. Defective? What the fuck does THAT mean???

You can take your 216 bigots and vote for Bush on your way to hell!

"Parents of homosexual children could identify with giving life to a defective child."

Oh, and thank GOD I don't live in YOUR town. What a bunch of mean homophobes!

P.S. MARY CHENEY IS GAY!

[gristy]

46. You

are nuts. You must be pretty damn well connected. And a busy-body on top of it.

Kerry lost 216 votes to date in my town.

Right. Kerry owes The Cheney's (sic) an apology. Your colors are showing.

[Zero Division]

47. You know he "wanted to hurt Dick"?!!! Bullshit!!

Not everyone thinks that having a gay child means one has "failed to father a normal child". You and others impugn Kerry's thoughts by refusing to understand how anyone can look at this situation without your own bigotry.

[Piperay]

48. That's just YOUR opinion and

opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. x(

[ibegurpard]

49. He does NOT owe me a fucking apology!

Please do not presume to speak for EVERY homosexual. And if his motive was to hurt Dick then FUCKING-A! I have no problem being used as a pawn to take these fuckers down.

[Ignis]

51. Hmm...

This post has me seeing red, despite my blue blood. ;)

[Sparkly]

52. That is just too funny!!

Saying she's a child of God = "an indictment of his ability to father a normal child?" :crazy:

Cheney expressing appreciation for Edwards' remarks = Edwards was "doing the same thing?" :crazy:

The Cheneys discussing their daughter's homosexuality = helping voters identify with "giving life to a defective child?" :crazy:

DEFECTIVE? Yet it's offensive to call her a child of God...?!?!?

:wtf:

[NAO]

53. Kerry Has Mentioned Unemployed Workers In Speeches

xtinct wrote:

How did the grown ups read this behavior?
Parents of homosexual children could identify with giving life to a defective child.
Homosexuals saw that Kerry would use another homosexual for political gain.

NAO responds:

Well, Kerry has mentioned workers who have lost their jobs in speeches. Does that mean Kerry has "used" jobless workers for political gain?

If Kerry had said, Dick Cheney's daughter is unemployed right now because of outsourcing, would that have been "out of line"?

Anyone who was offended by this remark needs to do some soul searching to see if they harbor prejudice against homosexuals. They need to ask themselves if they believe there is something to be ashamed of in being homosexual or in having a homosexual child. Prejudice and shame may be deep and buried under an outward profession of tolerance.

[mumon]

50. LOL! Obviously the poll was skewed!

Notice that the poll question didn't say, "Given that Vice President's Daugher is a Lesbian who publicly acknowledges this and has worked on a gay outreach for Bush/Cheney..."

Makes all the difference in the world, I'd say, if they knew the facts.

[liberal N proud]

54. The sitting President lies and cheats and people are killed all around the

globe and the media does absolutltly nothing about it.
The candidate for President mentions with compassion the Cheney family and their love for their Lesbian daughter and it becomes a scandal.
All they are interested in is SEX SCANDAL and this is a close as they have been able to get for the last 4 years.
shrub and his army of pens and microphones!