9/11 Commission: Hanjour Most Experienced Pilot

[RedSock]

Watching C-Span -- Sam Brinley, a staff member of the 9/11 Commission is speaking about the hijackers and the four flights.

He called Hani Hanjour "perhaps the most experienced and highly trained of all the 9/11 pilots."

WTF?

[Old and In the Way]

1. Facts to the contrary notwithstanding.

If he was the most experienced, that makes both pilots hits on the WTC even more amazing

[RedSock]

2. Stuff on seating arrangements

First the guy's name is Sam Brinkley (forgot the K above).

He said that none of the hijackers were riding in the cockpits' jump seats. That was a definitive statement.

Plus he had charts of the seating arrangements and noted how two of the flights, the hijackers were sitting in almost identical patterns. He said this showed that the seats were "carefully selected facilitate entry into the cockpit could not have been at random."

Paul, if you are reading (and you should be!), how does this jibe with the days on which the tickets were bought? I thought they bought them fairly late. The flights were not crowded, but could they have planned it that carefully?

[DulceDecorum]

6. Does ANYONE keep a record

of people claiming to be pilots,
who are permitted to ride jumpseat inside the cockpit?
http://iafrica.com/highlife/goodlife/features/362712.htm

How does Sam Brinkley,
Policy Advisor Weapons Of Mass Destruction
Office of The Coordinator For Counterterrorism,
U.S. Department of State
KNOW FOR SURE that no-one was in a jump seat?

There was someone in the TWA 800 jump seat.
The right seat pilot was a check captain, instructing the left seat pilot. Now, as you’ll recall from one of our early discussions here, the left seat pilot was a very high time and experienced pilot. So he wasn’t a novice. The flight engineer was in training status. He was seated at the flight engineer’s panel. The jump seat was occupied by an instructor flight engineer who was supervising the flight engineer. During the climb out the flight was clear to 19,000 feet, and asked to expedite their climb out of 15,000 feet. The flight was subsequently told to stop climb at 13,000 feet because of crossing traffic. The recording ends with a loud, unknown noise. This noise is heard on all of the four CVR channels. The flight appeared routine during ground operations, take-off and climb out.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/transportation/july96/twa_7-26.html

Take a look at this:
http://www.geminiaircargo.com/jump_seat.html

In the movie, Midnight Run, the character played by Robert DeNiro steals an FBI ID and places his picture upon it. This opens MANY doors for him.
Suppose one pilot were to impersonate another pilot.
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m4PRN/2002_June_7/87473498/p1/article.jhtml
HOW would we ever find out?
Stranger things have happened. And with TRAINED EMPLOYEES at that.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5260/unusual.html

Anyhow, I guess that
Sam Brinkley is accusing Fox News of "sloppy reporting."

RITA COSBY, FOX CORRESPONDENT: Hi, John. The hijackers aboard the doomed flights may not have had to force their way into the cockpits after all. Fox News has learned that investigators believe that on at least one flight, one of the hijackers was already inside the cockpit before takeoff.
Law enforcement sources tell Fox News there is evidence gathered from cockpit voice recordings suggesting that at least one of the hijackers was posing as a pilot and was thereby extended the typical airline courtesy of allowing any pilot from any airline to join a flight by sitting in the jump seat, the folder over extra seat, located inside the cockpit.
In addition, law enforcement sources tell Fox News that after interviewing pilots on flights that were grounded September 11th, they've determined there were about a dozen Middle Eastern men on numerous flights sitting in the jump seats, leading authorities to believe that many other attacks may have been thwarted. The men in those jump seats have not yet been identified.
Law enforcement sources say the leads continue to pile in as well as hard evidence from things such as intercepts of phone calls and also bank records. And they're also working around the clock trying to prevent any future attacks since they believe many of the terrorists have not been located.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2001/foxnews092401.html

[Flightful]

9. Nothing amazing at all

Steering a plane is quite easy, we get the hang of it within the first hour of training. Meeting the planet again without breaking anything is the tricky part.

[DulceDecorum]

10. Yeah sure.

03/23/1994 00:57
LOCATION: Near Mezhduretshensk, Russia
CARRIER: Russian International Airways FLIGHT: 593
AIRCRAFT: Airbus A310-304
REGISTRY: F-OGQS S/N: 596
ABOARD: 75 FATAL: 75 GROUND:
DETAILS:The aircraft crashed after the captain allowed his child to manipulate the controls of the plane. The pilot's 11 year old daughter and 16 year old son were taking turns in the pilot's seat, flying the plane. While the boy was flying, he put the airliner in a bank of 90 degrees and the nose dropped sharply. Some one pulled back on the yoke to obtain level flight but the plane stalled.
Amazingly, rather than the co-pilot in the right hand seat taking over the controls, the captain began to coach his son in recovery techniques. After several stalls and rapid pull-ups the plane went into a spiral descent. In the end the co-pilot initiated a 4.8g pull-up and nearly regained a stable flightpath but the aircraft struck the ground killing all aboard.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5260/unusual.html

Rick Garza, a flight instructor at Sorbi's Flying Club had this to say about the two alledged hijackers originally thought to have piloted Flight 77, Khalid al-Mihdar and Nawaq al-Hamzi: "It was like Dumb and Dumber, I mean, they were clueless. It was clear they were never going to make it as pilots."
http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/badpilots.html

Jeez, if Hani and his accomplice were THAT bad at being pilots, then WHO was the other pilot?
WHO was sitting in the jumpseat?

Jumpseat Diplomacy
.....Do not drink alcohol. You are considered an additional crew member and may be called on by the cockpit or cabin crew for help.
http://www.teamster.org/divisions/airline/newsletters/winter2001.htm

[Flightful]

16. Quite sure

And just how much training do you suppose that 11-year-old had? As for dumb and dumber, I've seen a lot of pilots wash out even though they could fly straight/level, climb/descend, turn and navigate and even fly solo. Only one in eight student pilots ever earns a licence but I have never seen a student lose control.

[RH]

25. So bang goes the stupid idea

that Flight 77 did not possibly hit the Pentagon because an alleged flight maneuver exceeded software linits!

Was it not the Airbus rather than the Boieng which was supposed to have a built in control system to prevent that sort of abuse?

[Flightful]

26. There are built-in limits

But the pilot always has the last work- think of the "Are you sure" that pops up on your PC when you try to do certain things. The aircraft have warning systems to indicate when the flight envelope is approached or exceeded but they won't stop a maneouvre.

[RH]

27. Thanks. .. I heard that

the Airbus has some "hard" limits (a computer over ride of a pilot's actions) while the Boeings only have "soft" limits (warning signals under similar circumstances).

It cropped up for instance over the demise of Flight 587 (an Airbus) the story being that a pilot's unusual use of the rudder shook the fin off, with no anticipation of the possibilty because no pilot had previously been warned of it; they'd thought that the system kept them safe.

[medienanalyse]

3. There are two Hanjours

One of them since a long time in the USA, the other not. One sometimes wrote his name Hanjoor. The different handwritings of both you can compare on
http://www.nationalreview.com/mowbray/mowbray100902.asp

which is just only one pont in my arguments in my book which claims that Atta, Jarrah and Hanjour had doppelgangers, Al-Hasmi, AlMidhar and BinalShib are CIA and a lot of the others are Fotoshop- personalities- just not existing but blaming some poor guys in Arab countries which had same names.

[DulceDecorum]

4. RE: photoshop personalities

Anyone here tried researching some of the passengers lives BEFORE September 11?

[RH]

5. A good deal is known about most of the suspects,

at least to the effect that their existence was perfectly real.

As pointed out on another thread some were already on watch lists, and some of those had in the mean time recklessly run into the police because of minor offences.

A good deal of research has been done by some to work out what Atta and Co. were up to in Florida.

On the other hand some were very little is known about half a dozen of them. They'd been seen around before September 2001 but had only arrived in the USA during the previous few months. Some seem to have hardly spoken any English.

There is also by the way very little to be found to connect the Flight 77 bunch to Atta's gang and to the best of my knowledge the notion that Hanjour flew the plane into the Pentagon is nothing more than a conjectural hypothesis in any case; no hard evidence has yet appeared to show that he was as a matter of fact in the front seat.

[DulceDecorum]

7. Not the suspects,

the other passengers.

[medienanalyse]

8. the other passengers

Atta, Jarrah, Hanjour: doppelgangers
Al-Hasmi, AlMidhar, (BinalShib): CIA
I forgot AlShehhi, who existed too. The others "existed" only some months in Florida with signing documents alsmost unintelligibly, no photos, no friends and so on.

The other passengers: the German ones lived almost in my neighbourhood. Intersting are those connected to Raytheon. And most interesting is the switch with the two Larsons who were replaced after they were "found" alive and well like the other passengers.

So it is a mixture not only in the names of the suspects - which shows that the "manifests" are fabrications out of real persons and wildcards which got replaced one by one by more or less existing personalities. Restructuring, renaming was done a long time, see Al-Omari, Al-Sheri, Bukharis, Larsons and so on.

[paulthompson]

12. It's too bad...

your material is all in German, because I'd really like to read it. Any chance of an English translation of your book?

I personally also lean towards the doppleganger theory. There's a lot of information that I've collected that I haven't put in the timeline yet about that, especially Atta being everywhere at once.

One interesting bit is how Alhazmi, Almihdhar, and Hanjour are seen repeatedly both in San Diego at their apartment there and on the East Coast, at the same time.

What's this about the Larsons and Raytheon? Are there some good articles in German you got your data from that you could point out as worthy of being translated into English?

And what do you think of reports of Atta and Alshehhi living in Spain and the Philippines in the 1997-1999 timeframe when they're supposedly living in Germany at the same time?

[RH]

24. San Diego?

Hanjour has been said to have spent time in San Diego but what then establishes the supposed date dichotomy?

I'd understood that he'd been there at the end of 2000 before turning up on the East Coast, February 2001.

[paulthompson]

11. interesting point...

You're right, the handwriting samples are curiously different. One might say it's just a case of writing upper case vs. lower case, but even the way the numbers are written are quite different.

[medienanalyse]

13. your questions

Paul - there is no explanation other than that the two Hanjours are two different persons. These handwritiungs are hard evidence, not circumstancial ones. And I found out more but I am not able to rewrite the whole book here and translate it. But

>>>Any chance of an English translation of your book?
we work on it.

>>>especially Atta being everywhere at once.
I only pointed to some main points, that is Atta getting TWQ visa in Hanuary 2001 or being on Friday evening on Longboat key, Sarasota (so close to Bush`s domicile three days later) and drinking with his pals in a place hundreds of kilometers apart and showing his money, insulting the waitress and so on. Both times we have completely innocent witnesses and nobody who interfered in the production of the story.
Atta, the silent one, changes into the Florida axxhole, and Jarrah, who was funny and joking and so on in Germany, was loved by his trainer in the gym because he was so humble and sincere and silent. But the changes of character, which are obvious, are no hard evidence. Anyway: we have hard evidence.

>>>>One interesting bit is how Alhazmi, Almihdhar, and Hanjour are seen repeatedly both in San Diego at their apartment there and on the East Coast, at the same time.
I only have Hanjour material. But it is the ubiquity-schedule which in normal cases only saints have an angels. And the devil for sure, which explains all. He is everywhere.

>>>>What's this about the Larsens and Raytheon? Are there some good articles in German
No articles. There is only my book relying on English sources and on simple logic. Remember the blank numers in the first days of the appearance of the "passenger manifests". It was more than only the number of the terrorists. So they could switch the Kamfars or Bukharis out and fill some passengers in.
The first CNN listing named the Larsens. Here is the answer:
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Sep/18/ln/ln15a.html

CNN must have got the names of the Larsens by the FBI, there was no way that a very pushing reporter "found them out" somewhere. What makes the Larsens interesting is: they were out of the way, not to be found for some days. Even killers could not find them. Same as with the Bukharis, the living one was like the Larsens were re-seen by neighbours before anybody could intervene.

About Raytheon: more than five passengers in DIFFERENT flights worked with that company in leading positions. So I do not talk about a congress from which several participants fly back home in one machine. The Raytheon guys were on ALL machines.

>>>And what do you think of reports of Atta and Alshehhi living in Spain and the Philippines in the 1997-1999 timeframe when they're supposedly living in Germany at the same time?

Yes, it is the same thing with Jarrah. It was you with your excellent work on Jarrah who led me to the conclusion how the red herrings were dropped.

[RH]

14. handwritiungs are hard evidence

that something was written.

I am not so convinced that this is hard evidence of two different Hanjours. That is clearly a matter of interpretation. To what extent then thas the issue been addressed by qualified experts?

In there are certain obvious differences to be noted but at the same time some disticnt similarities are also evident.

In the context of somebody brought up from the start to write in English the dual Hanjour thesis would be fairly convincing, but was that the case with Hanjour?

I dare say that if my ability to write in Arabic was to develop over a period of a few years some distinct changes would also be observed.

So what else if anything would corroborate the thesis?

[medienanalyse]

15. correct and more

>>>>I dare say that if my ability to write in Arabic was to develop over a period of a few years some distinct changes would also be observed.

Not only to write in Arabic but also to write in Latin letters changes in the years. Everybody can observe that in his own handwriting.

But I have -certainly- noticed that a foreigner was forced to write in -for him- foreign letters. For sure. But NEVER in my life I have seen somebody who changed the direction of the letters. My letters i.e. will always be bowed to the right. And my way to write a number has never changed in my life. And this would be the same when I would write kyrillic, Arabic or Chinese: the main impact.

For sure I found out a lot more, but as I said already, I can not repeat and translate it here.

I am waiting for the "Atta in Florida" findings of Daniel and for an explanation, why the FBI destroyed Fotos of Atta (i.e. in the gym where he trained. where his foto was in the offices computer). I have no problem to understand when they say: let us have the copy or even "let us have the original pic, here is the copy for you". No, the FBI seized everything and prevented any investigatrion.

[RH]

17. changing the direction of the letters

At school I sat next to somebody who did so from day to day.

He was ambidextrous.

[medienanalyse]

19. what shall we do or learn now?

>>>At school I sat next to somebody who did so from day to day.

possibility a) there is a chance that the two handwritings in the two visa of Hanjour may belong to one and the same person, so we do not have hard evidence, but only a chance of 95:5 that there are two persons writing

possibility b) the handwritings are identical. whoever tells the opposite is a conspiracy theorist

[RH]

21. To be careful.

Your original assertion was

"there is no explanation other than that the two Hanjours are two different persons"

I think it likely that there has been some confusion because of different Hanjours. One Hanjour in the USA to learn English in the early nineties was said to be 5 feet five tall while in the later versions, e.g. the Visa applicatioons, he had grown a couple of inches. That is enough to raise doubts.

On the other hand what makes me nervous is sensational statements of supposed fact that are anything but proved as such. We've had more than enough of that from all quarters already.

[medienanalyse]

22. sensational statements of supposed fact that are anything but proved as su

you describe the Bushist lies?

sensational statements of supposed fact that are anything but proved as such, that is i.e. the two visa. Let us imagine on one shet were another name than "Hanjour" - you would never try to tell me it is one and the same person who has written on both visasheets.

Pardon me, but all my life experience says that the "statements" of the FBI are mostly blunt lies. Which does not mean that all opposite statements are facts. I conclude by the two handwritings two persons. If you do otherwise it is against any logic and statistic, but be happy with it. WMD exist in Iraq! Yes! Trumpet it out loudly! And tell those who have condiderable arguments contradicting that statement to shut up and to be careful.

"some confusion because of different Hanjours" hahaha!
By chance they got confused in the same places by allegations of those who should work against confusions. Just forget that the identity of Hanjour is clear. He was a miserable pilot. Find me ONE source which states the opposite - but I found how he could get his licence.

[RH]

23. It is not at all against logic to look for better evidence,

which was what I did.

The "Bushist lies" repetitions have already bored me to tears too often.

Whether or not you may convince yourself is of no interest to me.

Your teasing I could also do without.

If you have nothing better than that to offer I have other things to attend to.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FannySS]

35. Yes,

and all the 150%-conspirathy theorist are good promoters of the official version, of Bush´s "war on terrorism", of the arbitrariness of imperialsm, of the atrocities of US-colonialism etc.

Thath´s the way it works:
To often we heard some arguments, and after investigating we found that they´re NOTHING. So if they do not have or do not present anything better against the official theorie, people could and should think, that´s all rubbish, communist insane people. And that´s what they want. They want to make us ridiculous, they want to make the idea of resistance ridiculouse.

Fanny

[RH]

36. I think so.

There is no innocence in carrying on with ridiculous ideas regardless of substantial arguments presented to refute them.

:argh:

[FannySS]

28. Hani Hanjours pilot qualification

He was a miserable pilot. Find me ONE source which states the opposite

Here is one source which states the opposite:

Despite Hanjour's poor reviews, he did have some ability as a pilot, said Bernard of Freeway Airport. "There's no doubt in my mind that once that (hijacked jet) got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it," he said.
http://www.newsday.com/ny-usflight232380680sep23.story



But to be honest, I personally don´t have any idea, if HH was a good, medium or miserable pilot.

Fanny

[paulthompson]

29. This is misleading...

...and probably reflects Bernard's opinion that anyone able to hold the controls could fly a plane into a building. The very same Bernard refused to even rent Hanjour a small airplane to fly just a few weeks before 9/11 after observing him on a test flight where he had to help Hanjour to even get the plane to land.

I doubt this Bernard knew about the fighter pilot type moves Hanjour (supposedly) executed before the plane crashed.

[RH]

30. "supposedly"

I have spent a lot of time looking around for hard information about the supposed U turn performed by Flight 77 before it got to the Pentagon.

Next to nothing turned up, especially in terms of eye witness accounts, so little as it happened that I came to doubt that Flight 77 (not another aircraft) performed the supposed turn.

In any case, from what I can gather so far, for want of precise "black box" information, "the fighter pilot type" version is greatly exagerated.

According to a frequently recited account "Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes.".

Two-and-a-half minutes at about 400 m.p.h works out to a distance of 16 miles travelled, which in turn would give what sort of turning circle? The geometry is not too difficult to master.

http://www.aaamath.com/B/geo612x4.htm

In the mean time I live about 3.5 miles to the south east of an airport. When B757s and other airliners take off towards the east in order to turn to head west towards the USA they pass directly overhead, ergo within a turning circle much the same, reversing direction easily enough within a diameter of five miles.

A greater speed would then then of course a valid consideration but surely not to the extent that some have made out.

[Bolo Boffin]

31. Flight 77 is the plane that had an unusual flight path, right?

On its way west, it banked to the right (north). It flew on a while, and then banked to the left (west again). Then it banked to the left again (south) after traveling for a while, and finally resumed the original flight path by banking right (west).

It then travelled west for a while, did a 180 degree turn, and flew back to Washington.

In Washington, Flight 77 did a rightward bank while descending for over 270 degree before striking the Pentagon.

I'd be interesting in knowing if a descent was involved in the strange turns Flight 77 made on its westward route. If descents were involved, I'd say that the pilot was practicing his final approach to the Pentagon.

[medienanalyse]

32. unusual flight path - yes. but not the only one

The other machines banked several times too. But more important is, that "despite" the derouting planes were able to meet these pathes:
c-130 in their special version ec-130, specialized in electronic warfare and only one home airforce base: just in the middle of all the pathes. Surprisingly because air traffic and especially new starts were stopped - and in comparison to scramble interceptors it is funny that we find ec-130 (lame ducks) alongside the planes.

[RH]

33. Deviation.

Paul Thompson's timeline helps to sort this out.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/flight77.html

The pilot was still in touch with ATC after the route deviation but by then the hijackers may already have been covertly in charge of the aircraft, so perhaps the pilot thus intended to indirectly raise alarm.

I think it unlikely that the circling descent over Washington (if indeed it actually took place) was previously intended. As a plan of action it would make no sense.

[RH]

18. "let us have the original pic..."

I once gave a roll of film to a police detective, to use as evidence in a juvenile burglary case.

It took me more than six months and good deal of trouble to get it back again.

Same everywhere: They're routinely blasé about that sort of thing.

[medienanalyse]

20. for sure US police are a real pain

>>>I once gave a roll of film to a police detective, to use as evidence in a juvenile burglary case

And so we learn it must be a day to day routine that FBI agants destroy fotos of the suspects in their gyms computer? Tell the neighbours "Forget what you have seen". Threaten witnesses "Shut ip or you will get problems". Pardon me, I am not American and I do not have a high confidence in USpolice and in their way to handle the law. But not in my wildest dreams I would expect the FBI to act like that in the surroundings of a murderer after the murderer is definitively dead.

Destroying evidence makes no sense except ...