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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:08 PM
Original message
Any evidence backing up this comment?
Hi,
I saw this comment today in an on-line discussion with a W. Post journalist:

"Is there any hope of reducing the shocking incompetence of our defense, intelligence and the those outlined in your article as well as the NYFD foolishly sending hundreds of fire fighters to their deaths (when demolitions experts know within minutes of the attacks the buildings are going down, don’t tell people to return to their desks, call them on there cell phones and tell them to evacuate along with the fire fighters)"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/liveonline/02/magazine/magazine_brzezinski010202.htm

Has anyone heard of demolition experts knowing or predicting within minutes that the buildings would be going down? I certainly have never heard that before.
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Whether or not there was
any demolition expert with any such opinion, if the said expert was not actually and immediately advising the NYFD the complaint is stupid, offensively invalid.

:hurts:

We see better arguments around here from the worst of the hecklers!

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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. That's the question
Were there experts saying something to someone like NYFD at the time. If it was just someone watching on TV or something then it doesn't really matter.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. more 20/20 hindsight
time to leave 9/11 alone
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pasadenaboy Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. No
I saw a presentation by the head engineer who investigated why the towers fell after 9/11, Nobody thought they would. the problem was the physical impact of the plane crash removed the insulation from the frame. The ensuing fire from the crash than super heated the frame, causing it to melt, causing the collapse. Neither the fire nor the crash themselves would have caused the collapse, but together they did.

Nobody knew that would happen, and to say so is really evil on their part.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Not even close.
Do some research on the melting point of steel and the temperature that jet fuel burns in open air.
Also find out the size and number of the support columns.
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Flightful Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. No need to melt melt steel to make it fail
Heat it up a bit and it becomes quite malleable- blacksmiths have been using that trick for centuries, and they only used wood for fuel. Also, there's a helluva lot more to burn in an office building, the only thing the kerosene did was make the fire spread faster.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I can see curiosity is not one or your long suites.
How does burning wood/charcoal in a forced air forge equate to a oxygen starved fire in a building?

At what temperature does paper burn?

At what temperature does steel soften?

You learn do some research and find out.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. How was this fire oxygen starved?
There were broken windows all over the place. People were jumping out of them.
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plaguepuppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. anyone heard of demolition experts knowing ?
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 08:52 PM by plaguepuppy
Only some after-the-fact comments that the collapses were "inevitable", but no one at the time seemed to anticipate a total collapse. This interview with one of the WTC architects on the afternoon of 9/11 expresses surprise that they collapsed at all:
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/12/News/News.34647.html
http://www.jpradio.com/Archive/2001/09/11/asx/010911swi.asx

And this is a comment from one of the leading experts on demolition shortly after the collapses:

A big question for implosion expert Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition Inc., of Phoenix, Maryland, is why the twin towers appeared to have collapsed in such different ways.

Observing the collapses on television news, Loizeaux says the 1,362-ft-tall south tower, which was hit at about the 60th floor, failed much as one would fell a tree. That is what was expected, says Loizeaux. But the 1,368-ft-tall north tower, similarly hit but at about the 90th floor, "telescoped," says Loizeaux. It failed vertically, he adds, rather than falling over. "I don't have a clue," says Loizeaux, regarding the cause of the telescoping.


Not long after this he stopped talking about any unusual features of the collapse. At about the same time Controlled Demolition got the contract for the WTC cleanup, and had some federal charges against the company were dropped.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. this info about Loizeaux should have its own thread
Every new bit of info I read leads to

:grr: :grr:
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
10. The closest I have come is this:
Then, on Sept. 11, they were faced with something no one could imagine.
That morning, Merco/Obayashi had approximately 1,000 pounds of explosives loaded and scheduled to be shot in the afternoon.
Then the unthinkable happened in nearby Manhattan.
“We actually saw the planes hit the World Trade Center,” recalled Mike Mergentime, vice president, Merco Inc.
“Then we saw the towers collapse.” The impact of the tragedy was immediate.
“We already had security in place,” Mergentime said, “but, after the attack, we got armed U.S. marshals guarding the job site.” Authorities would not permit anyone to keep explosives on the site overnight, so the charges were exploded at 3:30 p.m. the afternoon of Sept. 11.
Understandably, nearby residents were shaken by the blasting, and the New Jersey State Police immediately were on the scene fearing it might be another terrorist attack.
http://www.concretepumpers.com/MagArticle.asp?ArticleID=237

I am not sure how it is that these sharp-eyed guys
ACTUALLY SAW THE PLANES HIT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER.
Both of the planes!!
And they were working inside a tunnel.

So far,
Merco/Obayashi is the only entity
I have located within that general location
that HAD and DETONATED hundreds of pounds of explosives on September 11.

As for the presence of explosives WITHIN the WTC,
there is one other thing that has been troubling me.
A dog that did not bark, so to speak.
Check this out.

At 3:00 p.m. on Friday, Sept. 14, Wiprud was putting the finishing touches on a utility map for his employer, Weidlinger Associates, a structural engineering firm with an office just 25 blocks from the WTC. Mueser Rutledge Consulting Engineers, who were evaluating and securing the at-risk slurry wall under the WTC rubble, had called earlier that day, looking for utility maps. They needed to know if utility lines were penetrating and possibly allowing water to leak into the site's underground "Bathtub."
Of particular concern was the integrity and importance of the tub's 60-ft-deep, 3-ft-thick walls. The WTC, itself, had been the only thing bracing the Bathtub, so now its pile of remains was all that kept the huge walls from collapsing inward, notes Charlie Thornton, a principal at local structural engineer Thornton-Tomasetti. Such knowledge made initial debris removal even more treacherous.

Mapping for safety
Reliable underground maps, therefore, could save lives. And a host of other dangers lurked beneath the streets, as well. For instance, currents in electrical cables can generate a 360-kilovolt shock and, if cut, can shoot out a deadly stream of pressurized coolant. Steam pipes can scald at 450 degrees.
Early on, Wiprud recalls, rescuers wanted utility maps to find tunnels into the WTC foundation to look for survivors. So he consulted telephone conduit maps of the area, and maps that had been created by the WPA (Works Progress Administration) in the 1930s.
<snip>
On TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 18, AMEC Construction, New York City, one of the five main contractors leading debris removal and recovery, hired Weidlinger to map all the utilities under the site. AMEC was concerned about damaging utility lines while installing the slurry wall's many necessary "tie-backs"—a stabilizing process that will take many months to complete.
As devastating as the impact of the WTC collapse was above Ground Zero, THE IMPACT BELOW THE SURFACE WAS JUST AS EXTREME. THE FALLING TOWERS CRUSHED WATER MAINS, PUNCTURED GAS LINES AND SEVERED PHONE LINES. "WE EVEN CAME ACROSS A 12-in BOX BEAM THAT HAD PENETRATED 30 ft OF SOIL TO PIERCE A SEWER LINE," notes Mark Northrup, a general superintendent with National Water Main Cleaning, which is checking the integrity of sewers with robotic cameras.

(This means that the utilities were all out and several of the lines were crushed or severed.
Fair enough.
The collapse of the WTC registered a earthquake of about 2.4 on the Richter scale. We would expect some lines to be seriously damaged.)

Still, even with all Wiprud's accumulated detail, he had to corroborate his findings. "You can see a manhole in one place on one map, in another place on another map," he says. "If I can't see it myself, I'm relying on records... (also) the curb lines have changed and things are measured from points that no longer exist. Anything (before) the WTC is suspect." Whatever he found went to Mueser Rutledge.
By SEPTEMBER 25, Ground Zero had been cleared enough for Wiprud to peer under fire trucks and sift through debris and visually confirm information by inspecting manhole covers and other street hardware. Still, huge piles hid many of the markers. Even so, while on site, he found the fire chief in charge and gave him the preliminary slurry wall map.

Dusting for details
That same day, (SEPTEMBER 25) Wiprud also got into the DEP's Bureau of Waste Water Management at 40 Worth St. "They have critical records of every change in sewers, water mains and connections from when anyone did work in the ground," he explains.
The bureau office also was still without power and telephones. Searching by flashlight, he found a stack of drawings of the sewer lines under the WTC that the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey had been unable to locate. Detailed water main cards, "tap" cards and notes told where the services come off the main line and penetrate the slurry wall.
http://designbuild.construction.com/dec2001/integrated1201.asp

OK, so it took a while to figure out the exact locations of the utility lines. That is understandable.
But then consider this:

Despite the huge loss of life and the massive damage caused by the destruction of the twin towers of the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, the utility systems beneath the buildings "held up remarkably well," a Cornell engineer with wide experience in investigating disasters reports.
Indeed, said Thomas O'Rourke, damage to the gas, steam, electrical, potable water and waste water systems was largely confined to the immediate vicinity of ground zero where the towers collapsed.
In particular, said O'Rourke, the Thomas R. Briggs Professor of Civil and Environmental Engineering at Cornell, New York City's electrical network was able to operate in an "extraordinarily resilient" way after the disaster, despite the loss of two electrical substations near the World Trade Center. "In many other cities, the way the electrical systems are configured would have resulted in a cascade effect, as one substation shut down the next. But in New York City there is a system of local networks allowing one network to operate independently of another," he said. "The rapid restoration of electric power after the event owes much to the commitment and skill of utility crews."
<snip>
The researchers report that the damage to the gas, water and electrical systems was confined largely to two-to-three blocks around the collapse. In the case of the water pipe ruptures, the damage was confined to about two blocks from ground zero. Damage to the gas lines, said O'Rourke, "was remarkably well confined and they were able to shut off and isolate the gas system in a relatively short period without incurring collateral fire damage."
Lembo noted that telecommunications were strongly affected, with widespread loss of service immediately after the event. That is because part of the World Trade Center collapsed on the Verizon building, damaging cabling, switching and related equipment.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicles/12.13.01/O'Rourke-WTC.html

I think it is rather strange that
ONLY the WTC and the immediate area
suffered gas and electrical outages.
I am not even sure I heard anything about water shortages. Lord knows the firefighters had plenty of water to pour on the rubble.

If you were going to demolish the WTC complex
and did not want to do more damage than was necessary,
would you not also close off the utilities feeding that area?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Of course you would
If you were going to demolish the WTC complex
and did not want to do more damage than was necessary,
would you not also close off the utilities feeding that area?


What makes you think any utilites were closed off?
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plaguepuppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Electricity?
I remember reading that the electricity to the area (at least the surrounding area of lower Manhattan) was in fact turned off by Con Ed. Given that WTC-7 sat on top of a major substation it seems like a reasonable precaution, probably SOP for a major incident like this. And there was a broken 20" water main, on West I think.

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Anyhow
The Bergen Tunnel now shows up with explosives.

Remember this?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

THAT
is the other well-known mention of explosives
within the vicinity of WTC and also New Jersey.

Now,
impeach this testimony.

At 1230 that day, Scott Berube, Mike Noell and I crammed into the packed van and began the 375 mile trip. Throughout the journey we were in cell phone contact with Ed Smith. His connections became apparent when, at Exit 8 of the NJ Turnpike, we pulled up behind a NJ State Police unit operated by Trooper Walt Babecki. Walt led us Code 3 on a 30 mile run through heavy traffic, using the median and shoulder when necessary. We first glimpsed the NYC skyline while on the Outer Bridge Crossing from New Jersey to Staten Island. Forever altered; a surreal vision of the huge, ominous pall of smoke where the mighty towers once stood. It was now 1830 and night was falling.
We parted company with Trooper Babecki, without whom we would still have been miles away and stalled in traffic. Smith had arranged for an NYPD escort into the city. We met up with Officer Tommy Wilson of NYPD Highway Patrol who advised us that we would be using dedicated emergency vehicle- only lanes from that point and to “Be sure and keep up with me” as he roared off on the big NYPD Harley. Using lights and siren he led us across Staten Island, over the Verrazano Narrows Bridge and into Brooklyn.
The Brooklyn Battery Tunnel is open for emergency vehicle access to lower Manhattan. It was here we encountered the first of two police checkpoints and were able to cross, thanks to the escort arranged by Detective Smith. Wilson led us through the Battery Tunnel where we emerged at the Gates of Hell.
We crossed a National Guard checkpoint. Troops in battle dress on the streets of America. We pulled into a line of stopped vehicles and were informed that President Bush was preparing to lift off just to the south of our location. Until Marine One went wheels up we were going no further. We exited the van for the first time in NY. Ground Zero was visible a few blocks to the North, illuminated like a ghastly carnival of the macabre. Overhead the throb of helicopters and the roar of jets filled the darkness. US fighter planes and helos on combat air patrol over New York City. Simply unbelievable.

Much has been said about the smell. It is palpable. A sharp, acrid, pungent odor that assaults the senses. A foul meld of ozone, EXPLOSIVES, charred metal, burning jet fuel and other unspeakable ingredients. It is the stink of death and destruction.
It is the stink of war.
http://www.blackhawkindustries.com/press/press_detail.asp?release_id=26

BlackHawk Industries got started because the SEAL teams needed updated and better equipment after Iraq and Somalia. BlackHawk was originally started to, and was focused on, the custom gear for tier one and black ops units. As our popularity grew within these secret units, other units began to contact us and wanted our gear as well. This in turn allowed BlackHawk to grow, and offer gear globally.
Interview with Mike Noell, President and CEO.

Greg Andersen is one of the firm's top representatives.
And Greg Andersen is the one who said that smell at the WTC on September 11 included that of explosives.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Perhaps he was speaking metaphorically?
A foul meld of ozone, EXPLOSIVES, charred metal, burning jet fuel and other unspeakable ingredients. It is the stink of death and destruction. It is the stink of war.

I mean what does charred metal really smell like? Burning jet fuel? Any jet fuel had been burned off many hours ago. And what exactly is the stink of war or the stink of death and destruction?

Perhaps your are taking his statements too literally.




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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. re:perhaps
Perhaps... :smoke:
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Literal metaphor
Greg Andersen of Blackhawk Industries states:
Much has been said about the smell. It is palpable. A sharp, acrid, pungent odor that assaults the senses. A foul meld of ozone, EXPLOSIVES, charred metal, burning jet fuel and other unspeakable ingredients. It is the stink of death and destruction.
It is the stink of war.
http://www.blackhawkindustries.com/press/press_detail.asp?release_id=26

OK, so we will literally toss the EXPLOSIVES.
Now,
tell us Lared,
should we keep the ozone?
or the charred metal?
or the burning jet fuel?
or the other unspeakable ingredients?
Or shall we just metaphorically junk them as well?

And one other thing,
If he could STILL smell the jet fuel,
doesn't that mean that
there was STILL jet fuel lying around to be smelled?
A lot of Pentapeople who claim to have been inside the fireball have also claimed to have smelled jet fuel. Are THEY also mistaken?

This guy hangs out with Navy SEALS and black ops for crying out loud.
Doesn't his word count for ANYTHING?
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plaguepuppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Smells
Odors are some of the most specific and uniquely identifiable of all our sense impressions, and the smell of high explosives is very specific to someone who has smelled it before. The only thing metaphorical is his lumping those things together and calling it "the stink of war."

And on the subject of unspeakable ingredients, it does seem that the people trapped in the buildings were somehow vaporized or turned to dust, just as the contents of the buildings (phones, computers, etc.) were.

"You have two 110 story office buildings... you don't find a desk, you don't find a chair, you don't find a telephone, a computer. The biggest piece of a telephone I found was half of the keypad, and it was about this big . The building collapsed to dust."
__Joe Casaliggi, Engine 7, after several days of digging through the wreckage of the Twin Towers
http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/collapse%20update/Engine-7.htm

I don't think Casaliggi is being metaphorical at all, I think he means exactly what he says. In a normal building collapse you expect to find bodies, crushed and mutilated perhaps
but not reduced to tiny particles. Remember the dust particles identified as being from the microchips in computers? How does crushing the case of a computer, even under enormous weight, take a silicon wafer in a plastic package and disperse it as 60 micron dust particles over lower Manhattan?
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. More on explosives
Wednesday, September 12, 2001
Three arrested with van full of explosives
4:27:11 AM

Reports from New York are saying three people have been arrested with a van of explosives.
The van was stopped along the New Jersey turn-pike near the George Washington Bridge.
It was not clear why police stopped the van but when they did they found it was laden down with tonnes of explosives.
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2001/09/12/story23429.asp

EIGHT MINUTES LATER:
Ooops sorry folks,
Nothing to see here. Move along, move along.

Wednesday, September 12, 2001
Police confirm arrests but deny explosives find
4:34:43 AM

NYPD officers have confirmed the arrest of three men on the New Jersey turn-pike.
However officials denied any explosives were found in the van.
Officials declined to say why exactly the men had been arrested.
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2001/09/12/story23430.asp

They say that nothing is official until it has been officially denied.
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