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Rudolph Giuliani Got Warning WTC Towers Were Going To Collapse

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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 04:00 AM
Original message
Rudolph Giuliani Got Warning WTC Towers Were Going To Collapse
from Prison Planet

We first reported this 15 months ago but we have now received the video where then Mayor of New York Rudolph Giuliani admits to Peter Jennings that he got a warning that the South Tower was about to collapse.

Why is this important?

No steel framed building had ever collapsed from fire damage before in history. The event was unprecedented. To know the building was about to collapse would require inside knowledge of 'the 9/11 script' and how it was supposed to unfold on that fateful day.

Remember, right before the building collapsed, firefighters reported minimal fires which they could quickly and easily extinguish.

more...

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2005/090405gotwarning.htm
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nothing gets lost with Lexis Nexis
Thanks for this. i really had forgotten about it.

And here you go
ABC on 911 at 1 p.m.

JENNINGS: Now you're talking about the--did you go immediately to the Office of Emergency Management?

Mr. GIULIANI: I--I went down to the scene and we set up headquarters at 75 Barkley Street, which was right there with the police commissioner, the fire commissioner, the head of emergency management, and we were operating out of there when we were told that the World Trade Center was going to collapse. And it did collapse before we could actually get out of the building , so we were trapped in the building for 10, 15 minutes, and finally found an exit and got out, walked north, and took a lot of people with us.


Was Giuliani asked about this when he testified before the Commission?
:mad:
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
42. Interesting
According to "9/11: The Greatest Lie Ever Told" they waited until all the people were out before they decided to pull it. I guess they had enough sacrafice eh? Also the then governor of California was also warned before he left to becareful of his flights. It also tells that students in the area were warned and warned their friends about being in the area on 9/11. Have you heard this and how did these people know?
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
49. Perhaps they were getting reports from firemen on upper floors?
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-05 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. On the contrary
the two firemen who maanged to go all up till the78th floor said they saw only two small pockets of fire and asked a few firmen to help them. No panic. Even seconds before the tower crashed.
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ramblin_dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. There's audio with that prisonplanet link ....
It's odd that the word "collapse" is clipped. But Giuliani seems to say not only that they got word the WTC was going to collapse, but would do so in "10-15 minutes".
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. pretty precise timing for something that was *unprecedented*...
So they could time it to 10-15 minutes? That's quite amazing when you think abou tit........
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-17-05 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Here's my entry on this:
Before 9:59 A.M.*: Giuliani Apparently Told WTC Towers Will Collapse When Fire Chiefs Think Otherwise
Between 9:25 A.M. and 9:45 A.M., one senior New York fire chief recommends to the Fire Department Chief of Department that there might be a WTC collapse in a few hours, and, therefore, fire units probably shouldn’t ascend much above the sixtieth floor (presumably this assumes the collapse would be gradual so those on lower floors would still have time to evacuate). This advice is not followed or not passed on. Apparently, no other senior fire chiefs mention or foresee the possibility of the WTC towers falling. (9/11 COMMISSION REPORT, 5/19/04) However, New York City Mayor Rudoph Giuliani recounts, “I went down to the scene and we set up headquarters at 75 Barclay Street, which was right there, with the police commissioner, the fire commissioner, the head of emergency management, and we were operating out of there when we were told that the World Trade Center was going to collapse. And it did collapse before we could actually get out of the building, so we were trapped in the building for ten, 15 minutes, and finally found an exit and got out, walked north, and took a lot of people with us.” (ABC NEWS, 9/11/01 (D)) As can be seen by another account of similar events, this happens before the first WTC tower falls, not the second. (9/11 COMMISSION, 5/19/04) It is not clear who tells Giuliani to evacuate when no fire chiefs were considering the possibility of an imminent collapse.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. So you believe Giuliani was unaware of the conspiracy?
There must have been people with Giuliani who saw and heard what happened - why is it so hard to find out who this guy was and what exactly he said?
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ROH Donating Member (521 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. So...
Edited on Sun May-15-05 03:15 PM by ROH
You wrote: "There must have been people with Giuliani who saw and heard what happened - why is it so hard to find out who this guy was and what exactly he said?"

How would you go about getting this information?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I don't care..
You are one of several people that think this is a big deal yet you are unable to advance your case beyond a superficial analysis of a Giuliani TV interview where he is relaying second hand information. If YOU want to be taken seriously why don't you make a serious case? I'm just pointing a good starting point if that is in fact what you want to do that. Its YOUR arguement - YOU need to prove it.
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ROH Donating Member (521 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. You didn't even attempt to describe the methods you would use...
Edited on Sun May-15-05 05:04 PM by ROH
I asked you how you would go about getting the information, and you replied: "I don't care."

Do you think a collective general attitude of not caring may be a significant contributory factor to the whole problem being faced today?

What aspects of 9/11 do you really care about, and what are you doing to help?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I am merely meeting the standard you set.
Answer my question first instead of deflecting the conversation. I don't care about this particular question because you are incapable of demonstrating why it is important.

I think that 9/11 was a horrendous crime against humanity. I want all involved to be punished. I refuse, however, to join a lynch mob - therefore I care that the highest standard of proof be provided. A standard that you refuse to acknowledge. If you can't answer my questions without lashing out at the questioner, how can I have any faith that there is anything behind your superficial claims?
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ROH Donating Member (521 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. What I was pointing out (if you understood my reason for questioning you)
Edited on Sun May-15-05 07:57 PM by ROH
is that it is not necessarily feasible to obtain the information you mentioned; you asked: "why is it so hard to find out who this guy was and what exactly he said?"

I feel sure you can appreciate the kind of problems associated with revealing sensitive information: problems such as secrecy agreements, gags, physical threats to family and oneself. For example, see "Gagged, but not dead": http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3658238

In an ideal world the information you requested might be fairly readily available; but in an ideal world 9/11 would not have occurred anyway.

If you know how the information you mentioned can be obtained, please give a constructive answer as to how you would go about obtaining the information. If you do not know how to obtain that information, you can perhaps appreciate the realities of the situation.
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Superficial claim
If you can't answer my questions without lashing out at the questioner, how can I have any faith that there is anything behind your superficial claims?

Can you please explain what is actually superficial and why it is only a claim to say that Guiliani was told beforehand that the WTC would collapse?
And I think it is a really easy position to take:
Just give me names, tell me how 911 was done and I'm ready to think about it. This is a very comfortable position.
You know exactly that from the possibilities we do have there is absolutely NO chance to name names. It is even not possible to give the names of the passengers of AA 11 beyound a doubt as the media accounts all in all published eight names too many.
How shall we prove something if all the proofs we need are in government's hand??
But we can figure out which questions are important.
And I really hope there is just one thing we can agree on this board that is a question worth if the lifes of many firefighters could have been safed.

We are in no position to get official answers.
BUT:
Give me just one reason why the Independent Commission didn't ask Guiliani when he was in front of them? Why did they only repeat that he was a great person? Why did the public have to shout at the end of the hearing to ask him REAL questions?
The Commission certainly has the information this thread is based on. If they refuse to ask WHO TOLD YOU and WHY WEREN'T FIREFIGHTERS INFORMED then this is a clear case of conscious participation in a cover up
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Because you are getting wound up over an unknown statement ...
made by an unknown man i.e. the guy who warned Guiliani. From this you are making the case that it somehow shows that the WTC were deliberately destroyed. Again, why this this important? Why are you so certain that there cannot possibly be an innocent (or trivial) reason behind all this? It is your certainty with no real facts that makes your position superficial.


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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. No
Guiliani said himself within hours after the collaps that this statement was made to him. I really wouldn't call this an unknown statement .
All the questions I raise have NOTHING to do with claiming that the WTC was deliberately destroyed. That's your interpretation of my posts.
My questions are:
Whay wasn't Guiliani himfelf asked who told him?
Why wasn't this person interviewed himself by the Commission?
Why weren't the firefighters warned?

I hope we can agree on the importance of this questions.

I add: How could this person have foreseen the collapse of the WTC?
Again this question implies nothing. But the question is very serious.

So I have no position.
I ask questions.
I ask why weren't theses questions asked.
Why is my position which is only the position of asking questions superficial?

General question to you: Could the collapse of the WTC have been foreseen?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. You maintain that Guiliani quote reflects EXACTLY the same words
that were spoken to him and was not a paraphrase? This is what I think happened - someone runs up to Guiliani and blurts out "mayor you need to get out of here - that tower is coming down!" Quick, too the point with no discussion in the heat and confusion of the moment. Why is it impossible that not a single person at the scene was able to foresee the worst that could happen? The unknown statement I was referring to were the words of that individual who warned Guiliani. As to why the commission didn't ask, well it seems obvious to me - when a government conspiracy is not the first thing on your mind then it easy to see many innocent explanations for his statement.
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. It's funny
you always tell me what my position is but sorry I have none!
And I didn't say that Guiliani quotes reflects exactly the same words that were actually said. It's quite probable that they do as Guiliani said so within a couple of hours. Of course this is no proof.
You write:
As to why the commission didn't ask, well it seems obvious to me - when a government conspiracy is not the first thing on your mind then it easy to see many innocent explanations for his statement.

Given the fact that we're talkinig about the possibility that the lifes of many firefighters could have been saved I'm simply shocked.
So according to you the simple possibility that there might be an innocent explanation suffice not to ask in order to clarify things? I thought the task if this Commission was to figure out what happened not to assume that if there is still a chance of an innocent explanation to prefer not to ask questions? And if the death of many people doesn't suffice as a motivation to find out if they could have been saved I really wonder what suffice as a motivation to figure out what really happened?

Btw I'd be curious if you could come up with some innocent explanations for the fact that Guiliani was warned and second for the fact that the firefighters weren't warned.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Wasn't communications the biggest problem the NYFD
identified after 9/11? Perhaps the firefighter were not warned because their radios DIDN'T WORK. Show me that there were no ATTEMPTS to warn them.

As for Guilani, he was the mayor and he was in the command center - him and many other high ranking figures. These were the people that were running the entire operation - don't you think their safety would be a high priority? Think about it - nearly the entire public safety leadership for New York was with Guiliani. Wouldn't their loss significantly degrade the cities ability to aid and protect it's citizens?

Two questions for you - why warn Guiliani 15 minutes before the collapse? If it was important for the conspirators to protect his life, why didn't they arrange to have him conveniently out of the city on that day?

Secondly, do you believe that Guiliani was part of the plot? I'm not sure based on your posts. If so, how exactly does all of this tie him to the plot?
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Your questions are completely hypothetical
You can be sure I've an opinion but that's of no interest. It's pure speculation.

That there was a problem of communication I know.
But the point is:
Did the Commission try to figure out if this info was also passed to the firefighters?

Sure it's normal that Guiliani would be the first one to be informed but the question is simply:
Why wasn't Guiliani interviewed on this?

And as you suggested that there are innocent explanations I'd be interested to hear one.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. I have no idea, to be honest.
perhaps we should end this thread as we seem to be talking past each other for some reason. I apologize for any attitude - no offense intended.
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. My position is very simple
Either no Commissioner didn know of this info. Then all of them were shockingly incompetent. Or the Commission decided not to ask Guiliani then they played a conscious part of the cover up.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
37. It is not clear who tells Giuliani to evacuate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=37080&mesg_id=39861

So poor were communications that on one side of the trade center complex, in the city's emergency management headquarters, a city engineer warned officials that the towers were at risk of "near imminent collapse," but those he told could not reach the highest-ranking fire chief by radio. Instead, a messenger was sent across acres, dodging flaming debris and falling bodies, to deliver this assessment in person. He arrived with the news less than a minute before the first tower fell.


See link for source
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-05 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
46. Regarding speculation that WTC might collapse- Which one???
Be specific. Fire Chief said which WTC building might collapse in a few hours? Only the North tower had a fairly large fire. The firefighters in South Tower said the fire was small and controllable.
Hear firefighter discussion at
http://www.flcv.com/wtcexplo.html

Giuliana apparently was talking about the south tower?
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Kick
So, how could he be told beforehand?
How could anybody have known that for the first time in history this would happen?
Why was he informed but not fire fighters inside the building?
I think this question REALLY deserves an answer.
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I can't believe that nobody tries to explain this!
I mean we're talking why the life of many many people wasn't saved and maybe one is allowed to wonder how Guiliani could have been informed the towers would come down although never in history a building like this collpased due to a fire.
I'm really very curious to hear any explanation on this.

And btw why didn't the Independent Commission bother to ask him:
WHO TOLD YOU???
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Independent Commission???? Ha! n/t
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Oh, I'd love to know the answer to that! NT
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
9. the south tower of the "official" conspiracy theory
is about to collapse
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
10. Rudy G also sold off the rubble before forensic testing...
The blood on the hands of "America's Mayor" is so thick NOTHING can erase it...

Every New Yorker should be given this information...
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
11. IMO, Rudy Giuliani is a disgusting human being-- I can't even stand to
look at him now. Initially I thought on 9/11 he was actually being a admirable leader, but now that I know more about 9/11, I know he is a slimeball of the worst order.
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dbeach Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. slimy indeed..
or how about slimeball of the "new world order"
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
34. Why would he have to be warned if he was part of the conspiracy? (nt)
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. Pretty clear some prior knowledge, but not clear part of planning
But also clear he had some responsibility for the thousands damaged by environmental toxics at N Y site, along with Bush Admin.

And some of the WTC7 analysis sites indicate that his Emergency HQ in WTC7 might have been part of overseeing the WTC operations and also used to store some evidence from WTC1 which made it convenient that it be brought down by controlled Dem.- which clearly happened.
Since it is admitted and documented I assume there is no controversy over that.

But there is no conclusive evidence he was part of the 9/11 operation conspiricy other than having been given some prior information on expected tower collapses- which clearly IMO were due mainly to explosions.
http://www.flcv.com/911new05.html

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dbeach Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
12. "Giuliani Co. Cleaning Up Anthrax"
Adolph G. was so excited thinking of those anthrax profits that he
blabbed a bit to Jennings.

THEY ALL IN on the 9/11 bonanza including Adolph the chikenhawk

funny how he owns the anthrax cleanup co. and the Boca Raton building was publisihng smut and dirt about clebrities
extortion ,murder,pay-off,cover-up, repeat montra


"Giuliani Co. Cleaning Up Anthrax

BOCA RATON, Florida July 12, 2004

The arrival of anthrax in the mail at the building was the first in a series of still-unsolved attacks that killed five people, among them tabloid photo editor Bob Stevens.

(AP) Workers began pumping a potent chemical into the former headquarters of a supermarket tabloid Sunday to clean up the first target in a series of deadly anthrax attacks in 2001.

The cleanup is being led by BioONE, a company established by former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani and Sabre Technical Services, which decontaminated other buildings hit by anthrax attacks.

"It will be a symbol that we can deal with these new risks that we live with in our new world," Giuliani said. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/10/national/main628671.shtml


Notice how Dolph almost says "brave new world"
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. Kick!
I'll kick this as long as necessary!
How could Guiliani have been told? Who told him? Why weren't fire fighters informed?
We're talking here about a life saving information!
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. If memory serves me correctly
there were helicopter circling the towers that radioed back that they thought the towers were going to collapse shortly before the first one did. I'll have to see if I can find any sources.

It seems that that information got to Guiliani to late for him to take any action as he states that the building collapsed almost immediately after getting this information.
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. I would very much appreciate
Edited on Mon May-16-05 01:56 AM by John Doe II
if you could present us this information.
When it was said and based on which observation they were sure the building would collapse.
And as an aside:
Do you have any explanation why the Commission didn't ask Guiliani who told him and why firefighters weren't informed?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Here's one source
Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company
The New York Times

January 30, 2002 Wednesday
Late Edition - Final

SECTION: Section A; Column 1; Metropolitan Desk; Pg. 1

LENGTH: 2244 words

HEADLINE: A NATION CHALLENGED: FIREFIGHTING INQUIRY;
Before the Towers Fell, Fire Dept. Fought Chaos

BYLINE: By JIM DWYER and KEVIN FLYNN

BODY:


They said they had little reliable radio communication that morning, could not keep track of all the firefighters who entered the towers, and were unable to reach them as the threat of a collapse became unmistakable.

The commanders decided early on that roaring fires on the high floors of the towers could not be subdued. Many worried aloud that the buildings were in danger of at least partial failure. Confusion extended, for some, to which tower was which. Although they feared that the buildings were doomed, they could not bring their troops back in time.

One chief estimated that at the moment the north tower fell, nearly every civilian below the floors directly hit by the airplane had already evacuated, and that only firefighters remained inside the stairwells of a building that was seen as a lost cause.

So poor were communications that on one side of the trade center complex, in the city's emergency management headquarters, a city engineer warned officials that the towers were at risk of "near imminent collapse," but those he told could not reach the highest-ranking fire chief by radio. Instead, a messenger was sent across acres, dodging flaming debris and falling bodies, to deliver this assessment in person. He arrived with the news less than a minute before the first tower fell.

Taken together, the interviews with virtually every surviving member of the department's top command offer the most detailed and intimate portrait yet of the strategy and problems on Sept. 11. By themselves, they do not answer difficult questions such as whether lives might have been saved with different equipment or procedures. But for the department and the city, officials said, these accounts will be a starting point in an inquiry about the Fire Department's emergency response procedures.



....................

100 Terrible Minutes


As chaotic as the events of those 100 minutes seemed, it is clear from the accounts that they unfolded for the fire officials in distinct phases, beginning with the first attack at 8:48. That was followed by the second plane, which hit the south tower at 9:03; the collapse of the south tower at 9:59; and the failure of the north tower at 10:28.

Nearly all of the department's highest-ranking and most experienced leaders arrived at the World Trade Center within minutes of the first attack, having a clear view of the calamity from the Fire Department Headquarters less than two miles away in downtown Brooklyn. As they sped across the harbor, many of them worried about what lay ahead.

From the Brooklyn Bridge, Albert Turi, the deputy assistant chief of fire safety, tried to measure how much of the north tower was on fire.

"I knew right from the start that there was no way this Fire Department could extinguish six or eight floors of fire, fully involved, in a high-rise building," Chief Turi said. "It's just not possible, because we don't have the means to do it."

Just entering the building had lethal risks: the debris and bodies falling from the upper floors were killing people on the ground.

The first chief on the scene was Joseph Pfeifer, who had been at Church and Lispenard Streets with probationary fire officers and a documentary-film maker when the plane roared overhead. On his way to the trade center, Chief Pfeifer alerted the dispatchers to sound the alarm for a major catastrophe.

He ordered a staging area at West and Vesey Streets, set up a command center in the lobby of 1 World Trade Center, and learned that people were trapped in the elevators. Others could not get down from the floors above the fire. He sent the first firefighters up to begin rescue work.

"I told engines, half the group to take hose, the other half not to, at least early on, and started their way up," Chief Pfeifer said. "Also, I saw my brother, who was a lieutenant in 33, and we spoke a little bit, and then he went up also." (His brother, Lt. Kevin Pfeifer of Engine Company 33, was on his way down when the building collapsed. He did not survive.)

Peter Hayden, whose title at the time, deputy chief for Division 1, gave him authority for that area of Manhattan, joined Chief Pfeifer in the lobby of the north tower. They tried, he said, to get the building's elevators working. They set up a command board, to keep track of which companies were on the scene.

"In the initial stages, it wasn't chaotic," Chief Hayden said. "It was under control, very calm."

Saving Lives Comes First


When the second plane hit 2 World Trade Center, the south tower, a second command center was set up in that lobby. The chiefs had already been discussing the stability of 1 World Trade Center.

"The potential and the reality of a collapse was discussed early on," Chief Hayden said. "But we were at a level of commitment. We also received numerous distress calls. We realized we had a lot of dying and fire up there."

.......

"I specifically remember telling Commissioner Von Essen that we were not attempting to extinguish this fire," Chief Hayden said. "We were not trying to put this fire out. We had thousands of people coming down the stairs, and that was our focus."

Around the time that the second plane hit, a ranking chief, Joseph Callan, had seen enough.

"Approximately 40 minutes after I arrived in the lobby, I made a decision that the building was no longer safe," Chief Callan said. "And that was based on the conditions in the lobby. Large pieces of plaster falling, all the 20-foot-high glass panels on the exterior of the lobby were breaking. There was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason I gave the order for all Fire Department units to leave the north tower."

The communications, though, frustrated the commanders. They were particularly stymied by the failure of a device called a repeater inside the building that was supposed to boost the signal.

"At one point after the second plane hit, I think, I'm not positive of the time line, I know Chief Callan asked over the radio to come down to the lobby," Chief Pfeifer said. "But with difficulty with communications, that didn't happen. It didn't fully happen. I'm not too sure who heard that or how many people came down. There was no way of really telling at that point."

........

"They were very confident that the building's stability was compromised and they felt that the north tower was in danger of a near-imminent collapse," Chief Peruggia said.

The problem was getting this word to the chief of the Fire Department, Peter Ganci, who had set up a command post on West Street, across from both towers.

"We didn't have the tools that we normally have to communicate with our agency," Chief Peruggia said. The cellphones were not working, he added, and radios were spotty. "I don't have a fire ground radio, so I had no direct communications with my boss at that time."

Instead, he told an emergency medical technician to deliver the message directly to Chief Ganci, several blocks away. The message reached Chief Ganci about a minute before the south tower collapsed.

In 1 World Trade Center, Chief Hayden was becoming more disturbed about the flow of firefighters into the building.

"Early on, we realized that a number of the companies were coming in and were not reporting to any staging area we established," Chief Hayden said. "So we were losing control of the companies coming. There was also communication problems later on with companies coming in, units responding to the second alarm after the other plane hit. They weren't sure which was World Trade Center 1 and World Trade Center 2. So that became confusing.

"Of course, off-duty members were coming and they were reporting directly upstairs," Chief Hayden said. "So at one point in time -- I want to say that Chief McGovern was still in the lobby -- we had to account for everybody going upstairs. That became a critical issue."

The chiefs called the firefighters down several times, Chief Hayden said. "However, we didn't get a lot of acknowledgement."

"The last report we had from anybody at all," Chief Hayden said, "was that there were people heading up around the 48th floor. That was several minutes prior to this collapse. So we had people as high as the 50th floor while we had communications."

Similar concerns were first raised publicly last week by Deputy Chief Charles Blaich in a speech at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

The commanders considered an airborne rescue. "At one point I was asked to get the operations with the helicopter into motion," Chief Pfeifer said. "Unfortunately, or fortunately, I could not get ahold of the dispatcher to do that. One of the citywide radios got moved around and I couldn't grab that, and there were no phone lines."

.................
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Thanks, LARED
I appreciate you taking your time and posting all theses articles. I have no time to read them right now but will come back. So far, thanks.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Another source
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC_Part_IIB_CollapseSequence_Final.pdf

Starting page 28

WTC 1: First Responder Communications
• 10:06 am NYPD aviation unit advises everybody to evacuate the area in the vicinity of Battery Park City and states that, about 15 floors from the top, it is totally glowing red on the inside and collapse was inevitable. NYPD officer advises that it is isn’t going to take much longer before the North tower comes down and to pull emergency vehicles back from the building.

• 10:21 am NYPD aviation unit first reports that the top of the tower might be leaning, then confirms that it is buckling and leaning to the South. NYPD aviation unit reports that the North tower is leaning to the Southwest and appears to be buckling in the Southwest corner.
NYPD officer advises that all personnel close to the building pull back three blocks in every direction.

• 10:28 am NYPD aviation unit reports that the roof is going to come down very shortly. NYPD officer reports that the tower is collapsing.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. One more for giggles
The New York Times

July 7, 2002 Sunday
Late Edition - Final

SECTION: Section 1; Column 2; Metropolitan Desk; Pg. 1

LENGTH: 5512 words

HEADLINE: FATAL CONFUSION: A Troubled Emergency Response;
9/11 Exposed Deadly Flaws In Rescue Plan

BYLINE: This article was reported and written by Jim Dwyer, Kevin Flynn and Ford Fessenden.

BODY:


Minutes after the south tower collapsed at the World Trade Center, police helicopters hovered near the remaining tower to check its condition. "About 15 floors down from the top, it looks like it's glowing red," the pilot of one helicopter, Aviation 14, radioed at 10:07 a.m. "It's inevitable."

Seconds later, another pilot reported: "I don't think this has too much longer to go. I would evacuate all people within the area of that second building."

Those clear warnings, captured on police radio tapes, were transmitted 21 minutes before the building fell, and officials say they were relayed to police officers, most of whom managed to escape. Yet most firefighters never heard those warnings, or earlier orders to get out. Their radio system failed frequently that morning. Even if the radio network had been reliable, it was not linked to the police system. And the police and fire commanders guiding the rescue efforts did not talk to one another during the crisis.

Cut off from critical information, at least 121 firefighters, most in striking distance of safety, died when the north tower fell, an analysis by The New York Times has found.

......


A six-month examination by The Times found that the rescuers' ability to save themselves and others was hobbled by technical difficulties, a history of tribal feuding and management lapses that have been part of the emergency response culture in New York City and other regions for years.

*When the firefighters needed to communicate, their radio system failed, just as it had in those same buildings eight years earlier, during the response to the 1993 bombing at the trade center. No other agency lost communications on Sept. 11 as broadly, or to such devastating effect, as the Fire Department.

*Throughout the crisis, the two largest emergency departments, Police and Fire, barely spoke to coordinate strategy or to share ntelligence about building conditions.

*During those final minutes, most firefighters inside the north tower did not know the other building had crumbled, and how urgent it was for them to get out. Instead, dozens of firefighters were catching their breath on the 19th floor of the tower, witnesses say. Others were awaiting orders in the lobby. Still others were evacuating the disabled and the frightened.

*To this day, the Fire Department cannot say just how many firefighters were sent into the towers, and where they died. It lost track of them, in part because some companies did not check in with chiefs. Individual firefighters jumped on overcrowded trucks, against policy. Others, ordered off the fire trucks, grabbed rides in cars.

*The city's intricate network of safety coverage showed signs of unraveling that morning because of the headlong rush to Lower Manhattan. Police officers left their posts, senior police officials said. A chief with the Emergency Medical Service said they had no ambulances for more than 400 calls. The region's bridges, tunnels, and ports were drained of protection, said the chief of the Port Authority police.

*Although Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani created the Office of Emergency Management in 1996 and spent nearly $25 million to coordinate emergency response, trade center officials said the agency had not conducted an emergency exercise there that included the Fire Department, the police and the Port Authority's emergency staff.

.......


More than eight years earlier, hundreds of firefighters came to the World Trade Center after terrorists tried to bomb one of the towers off its foundation. "Communications were a serious problem from the outset," Anthony L. Fusco, then chief of the department, had warned in a 1994 federal report on the Fire Department's response to that attack. They had lost touch with firefighters trying to extinguish the smoldering bomb crater underground, and with others who had climbed clear to the top of the towers.

Now, Chief Pfeifer tried to turn on a device known as a repeater, which had been installed at 5 World Trade Center to help solve those problems by boosting the radio signal strength. The repeater didn't seem to be working, Chief Pfeifer said later.

Another fire chief arriving at the trade center tried a second repeater in his department car. That did not work, either.

As hundreds of firefighters climbed toward the upper floors where 1,100 people were trapped, one communications post after another was proving unreliable. Even commanders spread among four separate posts could not get through.

"I wasn't getting communications and I couldn't communicate into the building," Deputy Assistant Chief Albert J. Turi, now retired, said in an interview.

By 9:30 a.m., after both planes had struck, a rumor was circulating that a third hijacked plane was headed to New York. Assistant Chief Joseph Callan recalled feeling the north tower move. "I made the decision that the building was no longer safe," the chief told the Fire Department's oral history interviewers.

"All units in Building 1," he announced over the radio at 9:32. "All units in Building 1, come out, down to the lobby. Everybody down to the lobby."

.................

In the end, no firefighter boarded the helicopters. When police pilots reported "large pieces" falling from the south tower 10 minutes before it collapsed, only police officers had seen it from the sky, and only police officers on the ground could hear their warnings. When the pilots saw that the north building was near collapse 21 minutes before it fell, their warnings reached some police officers on the street and inside the tower, but not firefighters. Although the two departments had talked for years about establishing a common radio channel, they could not reach agreement.


..................

On the 35th floor, Lt. Gregg Hansson of Engine 24 had just spoken with Battalion Chief Richard Picciotto, when a cry of "Mayday! Evacuate the building" came over the chief's radio. "I get about halfway down the hall and the building starts shaking," Lieutenant Hansson said in an interview.

Chief Picciotto hollered "Mayday!" to the four other fire companies on the 35th floor. Lieutenant Hansson and his men went to Staircase A. In the stairwell, they saw Lt. John Fischer of Ladder 20, who noticed that two of his men had continued up. "He couldn't get them on the radio, so he went to walk up and go get them," Lieutenant Hansson said. "I said, 'All right, well I'm going down, I'm taking my men down.' And that's the last time I saw him."

Somewhere around the 28th or 30th floor, Firefighter Campagna, who had kept climbing after the first tower fell, ran into a crowd of resting firefighters. "A chief came down from a floor above with another company and said, 'Everybody evacuate, everybody out now,' " he recalled. Firefighter Campagna and his company, Engine 28, turned around, and all survived.

.............


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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Maybe I missed something
but so far the only thing I see that people thought the building might not be safe for firefighters to work in as things were falling down. Is there anything in this article that either suggest people foreseeing that the WTC would collapse or at least taking into consideration that it would collapse?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Not directly in this article
does it speak about the first tower, but it does highlight quite nicely that communications were quite screwed up that morning

From the first link I posted there is this

So poor were communications that on one side of the trade center complex, in the city's emergency management headquarters, a city engineer warned officials that the towers were at risk of "near imminent collapse," but those he told could not reach the highest-ranking fire chief by radio. Instead, a messenger was sent across acres, dodging flaming debris and falling bodies, to deliver this assessment in person. He arrived with the news less than a minute before the first tower fell.

So assuming the NYT is a reputable source you have a reason why he did nothing in the first 60 seconds he knew. He didn't have time a based on the lack of communications there was nothing he could have done anyway. As to why he was not questioned about this, unless you see a CT under every rock, it a pretty trivial detail once you have some facts.
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. Outstanding Post
Nice to revisit reality once in a while around here.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Someone has to do the dirty work
Thanks

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. Why the commission didn't ask
Information that was critical to informed decisionmaking was not shared among agencies. FDNY chiefs in leadership roles that morning have told us that their decision making capability was hampered by a lack of information from NYPD aviation. At 9:51 A.M., a helicopter pilot cautioned that “large pieces” of the South Tower appeared to be about to fall and could pose a danger to those below. Immediately after the tower’s collapse, a helicopter pilot radioed that news. This transmission was followed by communications at 10:08, 10:15, and 10:22 that called into question the condition of the North Tower.
The FDNY chiefs would have benefited greatly had they been able to communicate with personnel in a helicopter.

The consequence of the lack of real-time intelligence from NYPD aviation should not be overstated. Contrary to a widely held misperception, no NYPD helicopter predicted the fall of either tower before the South Tower collapsed, and no NYPD personnel began to evacuate the WTC complex prior to that time. Furthermore,the FDNY, as an institution,was in possession of the knowledge that the South Tower had collapsed as early as the NYPD, as its fall had
been immediately reported by an FDNY boat on a dispatch channel. Because of internal breakdowns within the department, however, this information was not disseminated to FDNY personnel on the scene.

The FDNY, PAPD, and NYPD did not coordinate their units that were
searching the WTC complex for civilians. In many cases, redundant searches of specific floors and areas were conducted. It is unclear whether fewer first responders in the aggregate would have been in the Twin Towers if there had been an integrated response, or what impact, if any, redundant searches had on the total number of first responder fatalities.

Whether the lack of coordination between the FDNY and NYPD on September 11 had a catastrophic effect has been the subject of controversy. We believe that there are too many variables for us to responsibly quantify those consequences. It is clear that the lack of coordination did not affect adversely the evacuation of civilians. It is equally clear, however, that the Incident Command System did not function to integrate awareness among agencies or to facilitate interagency response.208
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. I forgot to mention the above text is from the 9/11 report (n/t)
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
17. This qualifies as a smoking gun for
demolition in my book, taken in conjunction with Indira Singh's claim that she an the other rescue workers were told to move away from WTC7 because they were going to "bring it down".
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-05 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
47. In Dr. Griffin's book, Rumsfeld predicts WTC2 hit & Pentagon hit
There is a reference to a public statement by Rumsfeld in The 911 Commission Report: Omissions & Distortions after the first building was hit, that Rumsfeld thinks it isn't over, that there will be more.

Then later after WTC2 is hit, he states its still not over, the Pentagon might be hit.

Was he using a crystal ball? or was there a reason based on history to be able to predict these things?

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