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Experts: Sirhan Sirhan Did Not Kill RFK

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-26-08 05:26 PM
Original message
Experts: Sirhan Sirhan Did Not Kill RFK
Edited on Wed Mar-26-08 05:27 PM by seemslikeadream
http://www.nbc30.com/news/15712020/detail.html

MASHANTUCKET, Conn. -- New forensics evidence presented Tuesday during a symposium at Foxwoods suggests Sirhan Sirhan did not fire the fatal shots that killed Sen. Robert Kennedy in 1968.

Experts from all over the world met Wednesday to discuss problems in crime solving during the annual symposium, hosted by the Henry C. Lee Institute of Forensic Science. This years event was about conspiracies and solving complex crimes.

Dr. Robert Joling, a forensics investigator who has studied the Robert Kennedy assassination for almost 40 years, determined that the fatal shots must have come from behind the senator.

Sirhan, however, was 4 to 6 feet in front of Kennedy and never got close enough to shoot Kennedy from behind, the investigator said.

The other evidence was the Pruszynski recording. This is the only audio recording of the assassination. Another scientist analyzed it and concluded that at least 13 shots were fired from two different guns.

Philip Van Praag, a forensic engineer, said he made three discoveries.

The first two demonstrate that there must be more than one shooter, he said. The third conclusion is that the shots fired by the second shooter matched the firearm a security guard behind Kennedy carried.

Joling and Van Praag presented their findings together, although the two investigated the Kennedy shooting independently. They had never met until last year. During a seminar, they realized their separate findings were perfectly wed.

Sirhan Sirhan remains jailed in California.







In about 30, 40 years we should have this one figured out
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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-26-08 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Glad you posted this.
I saw a thread about this earlier, and, thought about posting it here...and, then forgot!

Yet another incident that deserves a new investigation.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-26-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Sirhan and the RFK Assassination
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
62. Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In: a Robert Maheu Production?

Biography: Robert Maheu
To me, the most interesting and least discussed piece of the Watergate puzzle is the piece related to Howard Hughes. By the early sixties, the Hughes corporation was already enmeshed with the CIA. Hughes had selected Robert Maheu to run his organization. Maheu had been a CIA asset for years, and was their chosen go-to guy when the Agency decided to kill Cuban leader Fidel Castro.

Howard Hughes knew before President John Kennedy and his brother Robert Kennedy did that the CIA was trying to kill Castro. Hughes found out when Maheu had to ask for a leave of absence to run the operation.

The Kennedy brothers found out about the plots shortly after the FBI uncovered a bugging operation in Las Vegas. Sam Giancana, one of the Mafia members hired to kill Castro, had suspected his mistress Phyllis McGuire was having an affair with Dan Rowan (of the Rowan and Martin Laugh-In comedy team). Maheu, as a favor to Giancana, hired a Florida detective to bug Rowans hotel room
. But the detective left his equipment in plain sight, and the maid reported the equipment to the police, who contacted the FBI. The CIA admitted to Hoover that CIA was directly involved in the bugging and convinced Hoover not to further investigate. The CIA then told Robert Kennedy about the CIAs use of Giancana in a plot to kill Castro. Given that Robert Kennedy had faced Giancana down in a courtroom (where he famously accused Giancana of giggling like a little girl), trying to prosecute him for Mafia activities, Robert was understandably furious at CIA for using the Mob, and furious at them trying to kill Castro.

In its own Inspector General Report, the CIA reported that while they told Kennedy about the plots that had already concluded, they never divulged that additional plots that were continuing. Ill do a separate post on the Castro plots at some point - but my conclusion will be the same as that in the CIAs internal study, which no proponent of the Kennedys' guilt in this matter ever cites: the Kennedys never approved any plots to kill Castro. The CIA, by its own admission, had no executive authority for these plots.

In 1968, John Meier, who worked for Howard Hughes, learned inadvertently of the CIAs relationship with Howard Hughes when Maheu told Meier that Michael Merhage was going to be working with them in South America, asking Meier to help Merhage with contacts in Ecuador. Meier did, not knowing that Merhage was not really a Hughes employee, but a CIA employee using Hughes company for cover. Merhage assumed that Meier was himself CIA, and spoke openly to Meier about the Agencys interest. (Merhage was so bumbling that one of Meiers Ecuadoran contacts told Meier they had figured Merhage for an agent right away.)

Merhages next bumble takes us right back to the primary subject of this article. Thinking Meier was a CIA man like himself, Merhage gave Meier a directive from the CIA to Hughes dated September 2, 1968, containing a list of American politicians the CIA wanted funded through the Hughes corporation. Among the names Strom Thurmond, Wallace Bennett, Paul Laxalt, James Eastland, and many others, was the name Gerald R. Ford. The CIA wanted Hughes to give money to Fords campaign. (Source: Hughes, Nixon, and the CIA: The Watergate Conspiracy Woodward and Bernstein Missed, by Larry DuBois and Laurence Gonzales, Playboy, September, 1976.) Was the agency rewarding Ford for his service on the Warren Commission?

Shortly after the assassination of Bobby Kennedy, John Meier had occasion to speak with J. Edgar Hoover, whom he knew personally. Hoover told Meier that the FBI knew that Maheu had been responsible for the hit on Bobby Kennedy, but that he was powerless against the CIA. He was, of course, powerless, so long as that blackmail photo was out there. (For more on this episode, see my articles on the Robert Kennedy assassination in The Assassinations: Probe Magazine on JFK, MLK, RFK and Malcolm X. And while Meiers credibility is shaky on some issues, I believe it was more than a coincidence that Robert Maheu called John Meier out of the blue, after ten years, the very day I was en route to see Meier. And when I met Meier, it was to talk about a different topic, not the RFK case, which I had not yet written about. This came up tangentially, which made his assertion all the more credible, I felt.)

Two years later, Hoover cut off all communication between the FBI and the CIA. I know Hoover couldnt have done that without risking the exposure of that photo unless he had, by then, put together counterblackmail material. I wonder if Hoovers independence from CIA came, at least in part, from something Hoover could prove about the assassination of Robert Kennedy in 1968.

After Robert Kennedys assassination, the CIAs relationship with the Hughes organization became even closer. Hughes ordered Maheu to seize the moment and hire away Robert Kennedys political organization. Hughes, ever Machiavellian, knew that Larry O Brien and other top lieutenants from Bobbys campaign would be jobless. Maheu was tasked with hiring them into the Hughes organization. If the CIA was behind the assassination of Robert Kennedy, what better way to keep Kennedys closest associates dependent for their lives and careers on the CIA? In any case, this simple act paved, in many ways, the start of the road to Watergate...

The Secret History of the CIA - Google Book Search
Deep Politics and the Death of JFK - Google Book Search
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #62
70. They don't just assassinate; they make sure that avenues to remedies are closed . . .
with the death of Wm. F. Buckley, some documents appear to have come floating out which suggest
that the CIA --- via a Howard Hughes front company -- was financing/supporting the political careers/campaigns of people they wanted to ensure stayed in Congress ---
one was Sen. Gerald Ford --- the other Sen. was Strom Thurmond.
Evidently, there were many others ---

AND, naturally they also targeted Congress members they wanted OUT ---
I would say that Sen. Frank Church was one of those! And his Hearings on the CIA/MK ULTRA, etal
still have never been released.

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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. That's exactly right...
That seems to be the preferred method today, defendandprotect :kick:

Here's an interview...
http://www.blackopradio.com/black303b.ram

to go with that story.
http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2007/01/real-hi...
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #73
81. Ex-Howard Hughes spokesman, CIA operative dies
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #62
79.  John Meier says the Howard Hughes organization was involved in the RFK assassination
More on Maheu:

John Meier says the Howard Hughes organization was involved in the RFK assassination
John Meier, a former employee of Howard Hughes, released a statement today claiming that the Hughes organization was involved in the assassination of Robert Kennedy:

John Meier, former advisor to the recluse billionaire industrialist Howard Hughes, claims that the Hughes organization was involved in the assassination of Robert Kennedy in 1968.

Among Mr. Meiers acquaintances were members of the Nixon family, Vice President Hubert Humphrey, Robert F. Kennedy, Los Angeles Mayor Sam Yorty, Head of the F.B.I. J. Edgar Hoover, Paul Schrade (who also was shot at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles along with Robert Kennedy), Harry Evans (who was six feet away from Kennedy when he got shot) and numerous others that are pertinent to this subject.

Mr. Meier had been introduced to Sirhan Sirhans lawyer, Mr. Lawrence Teeter, by Paul Schrade in 2005. Mr. Meier had numerous telephone conversations, e-mail exchanges, and meetings in Los Angeles with Mr. Teeter regarding Robert Kennedys assassination. The meetings that occurred during the week of February 13th - 19th 2005 in Beverly Hills, California, were recorded by Mr. Teeter. During that time Mr. Meier was also in communication with Paul Schrade and his wife...

http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2008/06/john-me...
http://www.blackopradio.com/pod/black376c.mp3
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. Have you seen these vids?
Edited on Thu Jun-05-08 02:09 PM by seemslikeadream
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #79
86. Playboy: The Puppet and the Puppetmasters
http://www.blackopradio.com/pod/black408b.mp3

SNIP...

Hughes was extremely anxious to get himself into an alliance with the CIA that would protect him from investigation by other Government agencies.
-- ROBERT MAHEU


A CIA cover organization is a strange and very useful thing. It's like having a magic box. You can put things in and you can take things out. You can take things out that you never put in and you can put things in that will never come out. Or you can get into the box yourself and go away somewhere -- or perhaps ago away forever. If the box is large enough, you can put an entire country inside it and no one will ever know.

The Hughes organization is such a box, the biggest and most useful of its kind. According to information given to us by a highly placed intelligence source, there is nothing else like it in the world, as far as intelligence fronts go. It is no secret to most foreign governments, most of which stand in awe of its ineffable, elegant vastness. From within this magic box, an important part of the United States' covert intelligence operations emanate. But by 1971, it had begun to crack. So much had been put into the box that things were beginning to come out. The magic was fading.

Hughes's alliance with the agency started as early as 1949. Only two years after the CIA got its charter, it began giving contracts to Hughes.

April 1, 1975, The Washington Post reported, "Hughes Aircraft has been mentioned as a potential hotbed of interrelationships with the CIA." The New York Times on March 20, 1975, quoted high Government officials as saying the HAC had been building satellites for intelligence purposes for years and "employs a number of high-ranking CIA and military men." As early as 1960, Maheu had Hughes's blessing in taking on one of the agency's most sensitive assignments: the assassination of Fidel Castro. Maheu worked out several unsuccessful plots with gangsters Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli.

The affinity between Hughes and the agency was natural: America's most secretive billionaire and the most secretive part of America's Government. In a way, Hughes was a kind of modern-day Leonardo da Vinci, an eccentric genius who pushed to the cutting edge of the 20th Century, whether in early talking movies or in space satellites. Just after his death was reported, Newsweek quoted a top-ranking Washington intelligence official as saying, "Hughes gravitated into areas that other people refused to go into or didn't believe in." HAC pioneered the synchronous-orbit satellite, built the first Early Bird satellite and the Surveyor spacecraft that made the first soft landing on the moon and sent pictures back to NASA in preparation for the manned moon shots. Without Hughes's signal-amplifying microwave tubes, pictures from Mars would have been impossible. HAC is responsible for three-dimensional radar that is used for tracking hundreds of planes simultaneously. And the world's first operating laser arced across the labs of HAC. Laser weapons are now one of the hottest topics within the Pentagon -- they may someday make nuclear weapons obsolete. The secrets of laser-weapon technology are so closely guarded that Pentagon insiders will discuss it only in state-of-the-art terms.


CONTINUED...

http://www.playboy.com/features/features/puppetmasters /

Thank you, Octafish
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

and Jim DiEugenio (Show #408: Jan 22nd, 2009)
http://www.blackopradio.com/archives2009.html
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #86
109. CIA took money from any RW sources -- including KKK and Nazis ....
at least some of it was given to keep RW politicians in Congress --

and they came in very handy later -- like Gerald Ford and Warren Commission and

moving the wound in JFK's back UP to create the myth of a "magic bullet."


Meanwhile, both wounds -- wound in front of JFK's neck and the wound in his right

shoulder blade each had NO OUTLET!!

And the wound in the shoulder blade was made at a 45 degree downward angle!!


Certainly the press read the autopsy report and KNEW -- !!

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-26-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Did you know that gullible isn't in the dictionary?????
http://hnn.us/articles/36915.html

My findings are in agreement with Harrisons. In examining Johnsons claims I looked at the CBS news coverage and I was able to synchronize the film footage with audio to the Pruszynski tape, of the moment in question after the shooting. I concluded with 100% certainty that there are NO extra gunshots on the Pruszynski recording. They do not appear on the CBS footage, which is being shot just inches from where Senator Kennedy is lying on the floor, which would put the cameraman within only feet from where Sirhan would have been apprehended. I timed the section at the beginning of the Pruszynski Tape, and it adds up to approximately 16 seconds. This is the section during the wrestling with Sirhan, where you can hear a man yelling, Break his hand...break his hand and scuffling in the background. Within this 16 seconds of audio, I hear nothing resembling gunfire.

This new acoustics evidence in the RFK case suggests to a high degree of probability that on the night of June 4/5 1968 in the Ambassador Hotel pantry there were no other gunmen who fired shots at Senator Kennedy. Furthermore, this evidence negates to a high degree of probability the allegations by conspiracy advocates that extra bullets were either discovered or retrieved from the pantrys swinging doors.


*sigh*
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Gullible is believing the same government claimed Saddam had WMDs on stand-by.
Gullible is believing J Edgar Hoover and the FBI did all they could to solve the case.

Gullible is believing the Los Angeles Police Department did all they could to solve the case.

Gullible is believing George Herbert Walker Bush had nothing to do with the assassination of Sen. Kennedy's brother.

That's gullible.



Sigh.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Sadly, "irrelevant" is in the dictionary.
Which is all that post of yours is, right down to the picture of James Randi.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Is that not amusing?
Edited on Sat Apr-05-08 02:08 PM by seemslikeadream
relevance :rofl:
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PhD Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-04-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
98. Never let facts get in the way of a good story!
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Laurier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
4. And we'd have got away with it if it weren't for
you meddling kids.

:rofl:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. ..
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
6. Hm...
"One witness, Karl Uecker, who struggled with Shiran when he was firing his gun, provided a written statement in 1975 about what he saw: There was a distance of at least one and one-half feet between the muzzle of Shirans gun and Senator Kennedys head. The revolver was directly in front of my nose. After Shirans second shot, I pushed the hand that held the revolver down, and pushed him onto the steam table. There is no way that the shots described in the autopsy could have come from Shirans gun. When I told this to the authorities, they told me that I was wrong. But I repeat now what I told them then: Shiran never got close enough for a point-blank shot. "

http://spartacus-educational.blogspot.com/2007/12/manny...

"The autopsy report discusses the three wounds in Kennedy. The wound numbers are not meant to correspond to the order of entry of the bullets, which could not be determined. Wound #1 was to the head, the actual fatal wound. The bullet that entered fragmented into a couple of large and many tiny pieces. Two wound tracks were visible in the X-rays. Wounds #2 and #3 were fired from near the back of Kennedys armpit and traveled upward at angles of respectively 59 and 67-70 degrees to the vertical, moving back to front. Wound #2 was described as a "through and through" wound. Wound #3 was caused by a bullet moving in a nearly parallel path, but the bullet did not exit the skin, lodging near the 6th cervical vertebrae, just about where the neck meets the back. All three bullets traveled back to front, right to left, and upwards. There was a fourth bullet that passed through the outside of his coat without entering his skin, also traveling the same path. This, recall, was the bullet that was to have entered Paul Schrades head. The killer would have nearly had to be touching Kennedy from behind his right side to have fired any of these shots. Powder tests were conducted by LAPD Criminalist DeWayne Wolfer, and by Coroner Noguchi. Both concluded that the firing distance, based on comparable patterns produced by test firings, was approximately one inch."

http://www.realhistoryarchives.com/collections/assassin...

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Debunkers: Where's the sarcastic know-nothing response on Uecker?
Just another confused eyewitness (who happened to grab Sirhan's gun arm)?

Attention-seeker?

Partisan of conspiracy theories?

Woo-woo moron?

Into which of these necessary categories of denialist propaganda does coroner Noguchi fit, with his talk of powder burns?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Whatever happened to Dan Moldea?
The guy, eh, changed.



The Curious Case of Dan Moldea

By Jim DiEugenio

In 1995, Dan Moldea wrote his apologia for the LAPD (and especially DeWayne Wolfer) for their handling of the Robert F. Kennedy assassination. To put this act in perspective, one must go through the LAPD files in Sacramento. After undergoing that long, laborious, painful process one can pretty accurately make the following statement: what the LAPD did in the Robert Kennedy case is as bad, and probably worse, than what the Dallas Police did in regards to the John Kennedy murder. Probably worse because, unlike the JFK case, the LAPD had final disposition over the Robert Kennedy murder. So Moldeas attempt to get LAPD off the hookand simultaneously make Sirhan the fall guyis pretty galling. How does he try to do it?

In the opening pages of his book, Moldea makes the following claim:
    As in all of my previous works, everything in this book has been extensively fact-checked....Nearly all of its major and minor characters and sourcesincluding both Sirhan and Cesarhave been permitted to approve their quoted words as well as given the opportunity to amend and expand upon them.


This statement is dubious. Moldea had provided Sirhan B. Sirhan a chance to fact-check an eight-page report culled from his visits with the prisoner. Nowhere in those pages did Moldea show Sirhan the following dialogue attributed to him in the book:
    Suddenly, in the midst of their conversation, Sirhan started to explain the moment when his eyes met Kennedys just before he shot him. Shocked by what Sirhan had just admitted, McCowan asked, "Then why, Sirhan, didnt you shoot him between the eyes?" With no hesitation and no apparent remorse, Sirhan replied, "Because that son of a bitch turned his head at the last second."


Reading this, Sirhan sternly denied such an exchange. Yet Moldea claims he fact-checked all quotes for attribution. Moldea was never allowed to see Sirhan alone. He was always accompanied by at least Sirhans brother Adel. Adel also denies that Moldea ever asked Sirhan about it. What makes it worse is that it now turns out that this comment was delivered to Moldea thirdhand, from Robert Blair Kaiser who got it from defense investigator Mike McCowan.

Lynn Mangan, Sirhans chief researcher, had seen a pre-publication copy of the book. Since she had been with Moldea on one visit and knew Sirhan very well, she realized that the quote was hardly tenable. She called up Adel who reaffirmed her belief. When Mangan asked Moldea when and where this conversation took place, the author told her that he would mail her McCowans affidavit testifying to these matters. Three years later, Moldea has yet to come through with the affidavit.

CONTINUED...

http://www.ctka.net/pr598-mold.html



Gee. J Edgar Hoover handling things from Pimlico and LBJ at the top of the investigative food chain for both JFK and RFK.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I haven't seen him on my TV
:shrug:

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Moldea wrote 'Dark Victory: Reagan, MCA & the Mob'
His work documented Pruneface's ties and debts to organized crime.

Moldea originally didn't believe Sirhan was a lone nut.

Then, Dan M changed. And going by what people he falsely quoted are saying, he must've had a very good reason.

http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/moldeas.htm

Last time I saw him on the teevee, he was slamming the NFL-mafia connection on Night Line.



I'd bet anybody who's anybody in the NFL knows that's old news.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. Apparently making that 'NFL-mafia connection' got Moldea blackballed
Dan Moldea, an investigative reporter for Larry Flynt...
I know from a first-hand source -- whom I will name, if legally pressed -- that Dan Moldea had privately complained that the major publishers had "blackballed" him after he wrote a book called Interference: How Organized Crime Influences Professional Football. The blackballing stopped the moment he agreed to write a book about the Robert F. Kennedy assassination pushing the "lone nut" hypothesis...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
75. Dan Moldea and the DC Madam
Journalists who are the last to see someone alive
He ( Dan Moldea ) says he had information "from a very reliable source" that Jeane had tried to kill herself before - that she had taken an intentional overdose that failed. I can't help but wonder who that "reliable source" was - one of his CIA buddies?

http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2008/05/journal...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #75
112. Looks like Dan Moldea is there is create lies and attest to them -- !!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
111. Moldea was still being pushed up to a few years ago -- always thought him a player for RW side ....
but a fast talker -- avoiding actual answers -- and always pushing something dumb.

Interesting this alleged exchange with Sirhan intended to make him look guilty ----

makes Moldea more of a RW tool than even I thought!

Thanks for the info --

There's a whole lot of info on this thread that I didn't get to read on originally.



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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Good question! n/t
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. I've been waiting for the sarcastic know-nothing attack on debunkers.
Thanks for that, Jack.

Uecker had his eye on the gun and Sirhan, not where Kennedy was during the entire exchange. He walked through the kitchen, holding onto RFK, right? That means RFK was right behind him. In the chaos, Kennedy could have been pushed forward as he fell.

The doctor fits into reality. There's no contradiction there.

Good day.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. So it's a, "just another confused eyewitness."
Uecker: “There was a distance of at least one and one-half feet between the muzzle of Shiran’s gun and Senator Kennedy’s head. The revolver was directly in front of my nose. After Shiran’s second shot, I pushed the hand that held the revolver down, and pushed him onto the steam table. There is no way that the shots described in the autopsy could have come from Shiran’s gun. When I told this to the authorities, they told me that I was wrong. But I repeat now what I told them then: Shiran never got close enough for a point-blank shot.”

And your counter-evidence that Uecker is wrong is what? The official story says Sirhan was lone shooter, ergo the point-blank shots with powder burns in Kennedy's back must have come from Sirhan's gun, ergo Uecker is wrong. QED.

Why not just make up an outrageous confession quote from Sirhan, like Moldea, and pretend falsely that Sirhan signed off on it? (Now why would Moldea go and do a thing like that?! Aren't the ballistics, of course minus the ceiling tiles destroyed by the LAPD and the holes in the wall, enough for him?!)
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Counter evidence - the recordings only have Sirhan's eight shots.
Sirhan, the only person firing a gun in the crowded room.

Uecker is talking about something he has no knowledge of, how close the gun was to Kennedy. He knows where the gun was in relation to where Kennedy was at first shot. He is looking at Sirhan and dealing with him and the gun. He doesn't know if Kennedy was pushed in the chaos.

So you're taking Sirhan's word over Moldea? Figures. Sirhan did enter that kitchen and did fire at Kennedy, regardless of whether you think he was successful or not.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. point blank range
Karl Uecker contradicts himself. First he says


There was a distance of at least one and one-half feet between the muzzle of Shirans gun and Senator Kennedys head.



But then he goes on to say....

Shiran never got close enough for a point-blank shot. "



Well according to the definition of point blank range, Sirhan Sirhan was indeed in point blank range.


In forensics and popular usage, point-blank range has come to mean extreme close range (i.e., target within about a meter (3 feet) of the muzzle at moment of discharge but not close enough to be an actual contact shot


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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. You don't link...
So I'll ask you: Does your source say anything about the distance implied by powder burns? My impression is that requires less than six inches.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. here is a link
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Powder burns
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 05:55 PM by k-robjoe
"Powder burns on Kennedy's clothing reveal that all three of his wounds were from a gun fired from 0 to 1-1/2 inches away. And yet, all witnesses claim that Sirhan's gun could not possibly have done this, for not one person places Sirhan's gun that close, and according to the general consensus Sirhan's gun never got closer than three feet away.

Three bullets were found in Robert F. Kennedy, and a fourth grazed his suit jacket. The upward angle of every shot was so steep as to be much closer to straight up than horizontal (80 degrees). And yet, all witnesses claim Sirhan's gun was completely horizontal for his first two shots, after which his gun hand was repeatedly slammed against a stem table (and now so far away from Kennedy that any errant shots of such upwardness would have been twenty feet high before reaching Kennedy, as opposed to entering Kennedy's backside as they did)."

http://www.bobby-kennedy.com/rfkassassination.htm





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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. So, let me make sure I get this straight...
someone other than Sirhan Sirhan shot RFK from 0-1 1/2 inches away and no one saw it? You expect us to believe this crap?
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Its all very confusing
I would need to read more about it. But according to this, witnesses saw a gun just behind RFK, and two witnesses say it was fired.

"Seconds later when the shooting broke out, Cesar hit the floor and admitted drawing his weapon. Although two witnesses, one a newsman, said they saw the security guard fire, Gene says that he did not do so. He successfully passed a polygraph test organized by Dan Moldea in 1994. An LAPD polygraph was set up for him in 1968 but was cancelled for unknown reasons by authorities the day before it was to take place.

However, as Moldea also points out, Cesar was standing directly behind Kennedy when Sirhan began firing and, according to his own statements, was in a position to shoot Kennedy at a point blank range.

A total of five witnesses saw him draw the gun, and Cesar gave contradictory statements to police about exactly when he drew the weapon. (He also had been on guard duty in the pantry an hour earlier when Sirhan reportedly slipped into the area.)

The trajectory of the shots from the back, which went through Kennedy's coat as well as into his head, were perfectly aligned with where Cesar said he was on the floor. If he did not fire, then he should have been right next to whoever did shoot and witnessed the activity. He was never asked and never volunteered that information during the polygraph.

(...)

Gene Cesar somehow lost his clip-on necktie during the confusion. In the famous photo of a dying RFK sprawled on the pantry floor, a stray clip-on tie lies just a foot from Kennedy's clutched right hand."

http://www.patshannan.bizland.com/assassinationsrobertk...

If the three bullets that hit RFK came from Sirhans gun, then RFK must have turned around even before the first bullet hit him. Since all three bullets hit him from behind.

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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I don't think your "source" is particularly believable
Have you read what his own website says about him?

Pat Shannan has been investigating and writing about the Oklahoma City bombing case since the day it happened. As investigative reporter for Chuck Harder and "The People's Radio Network," he traveled to the scene numerous times to interview witnesses, survivors, and other investigators. A later result of this work became "Murder in the Heartland," a two-hour video documentary on the subject, which he has referred to as "the biggest cover-up since the Kennedy and King assassinations of the 1960s."

In the 1960s, Shannan traveled the world as a night club entertainer. In the 1970s, he built an international marketing organization producing a six-figure income, which eventually was defrauded away by the federal government. In the 1980s, he became educated on the subject of the fraud in the in the Federal Reserve system and its co-conspirator, the IRS, when the latter agency began to unlawfully steal his assets from him.



In 1985, he presented his weekly Executive Intelligence Report on the award-winning Morton Downey, Jr. radio show in Cleveland, Ohio. He wrote his first book in 1987, The Banksters, which exposes the truths of monetary realism vs. deficit spending of via legal tender "credit money."

In 1991, Pat successfully defended himself before a jury in federal court against a trumped-up charge of "Conspiracy" - that catch-all charge the government often uses to dispose of people who diligently exercise their First Amendment rights. He is of the fervent belief that had he used a court-appointed attorney, he would have been convicted and incarcerated in a federal camp as one more political prisoner in America. Instead, his jury said, "Not Guilty."

Shannan published his second book in 1992 - I RODE WITH TUPPER - the true-life suspense thriller story of the persecution, prosecution, and
attempted murder of his friend and fellow writer, Tupper Saussy. It is also a handbook for the historical truths surrounding the founding of this once-great nation - a "must read" for any confused American, as it contains so much of the information which the government prefers the people not know.

In May and June of 1996, Pat Shannan spent a total of 18 days on two separate trips covering the Montana Freemen story. He was the only journalist allowed jailhouse interviews by the Freemen during and after the siege at the Clark Ranch. His book, THE MONTANA FREEMEN - The Untold Story of Government Suppression and the News Media Cover-up, explains the Freemen's stand and how the federal judiciary pulled out all stops to prevent the exposure of the banker's sham. It is a compilation of the lawful facts which CNN and Associated Press refused to report.

Currently, Pat Shannan is the Journalist-at-Large for Media Bypass magazine. He resides in the deep South and spends his time investigating and exposing suppressed information - through radio reporting, researching, and writing. He hosts the Media Bypass Radio Hour weekday mornings on the Truth Radio Network and "Pat Shannan's Investigative Reports" weekday evenings on the Heritage Network. His latest book, his first novel - ONE IN A MILLION - was released in January of 1999 and is available through Barnes & Noble or your local bookstore.


This guy sounds like a veritable nutcase. Maybe you should read about the logical fallacy called "false certainty". Simply because someone wrote something, hardly makes it true. What reason do you have to take anything this guy says seriously?
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. "false certainty"
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 04:50 AM by k-robjoe
You talk about false certainty. Yet it seems you are the one who is certain. Even so certain that you dont seem to recognize the words "confusing", "need to read more", "according to this".

My position is that I need to know more about the case. And your position, which seems to me like "fossilized" certainty, does not tempt me.



"Don Schulman, the only eyewitness to correctly see that Robert Kennedy had sustained three bullet wounds, not two, saw this guard pull his gun and ostensibly fire back at Sirhan, Thane Cesar's bow tie, knocked off and lying near Bobbie Kennedy as he died, seems to have been in the exact spot where the gun needed to be located that delivered the fatal bullet moving up and forward into Kennedy's brain: pressed up tight to Kennedy's back right side, and neck high."

http://flag.blackened.net/daver/misc/rfk.html

"Smith quotes RFK assassination witness Don Schulman who originally stated he saw a man shoot Kennedy from behind. He does not inform his readers that, in the mid-70s, Schulman was questioned by Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors Special Counsel Thomas Kranz, who had been appointed to independently investigate the assassination of RFK. Schulman told Kranz that immediately following the shooting he was 'tremendously confused' and that the words he used to describe the shooting to reporters in 1968 were the result of 'confusion'. Schulman stated that he meant to tell reporters that, "Kennedy had been hit three times, he had seen an arm fire, he had seen the security guards with guns, but he had never seen a security guard fire and hit Robert Kennedy.""

http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R28D4OI054HJBB

But then again this reminds me of this recording, that I came across a couple of years ago :

"This is the official LAPD audio tape of the lie detector test given to witness Sandy Serrano who claimed she saw a woman in a polka dot dress running from the Robert Kennedy assassination exclaiming "We shot him"."

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/serra...

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Kill the messenger!
"This guy" "sounds like" "a veritable nutcase."

Empty phrases of dismissal. Actually, he sounds like a crusader, and all crusaders may be a bit nuts, but that doesn't make him wrong on any given point, and (if you want to answer) you have to deal with a point on the details.

You are engaging in distraction. I conclude no one will fail to "sound like" "a veritable nutcase" unless they say something that confirms your own views of the case.

So you can quote his site about his career at length, but none of it answers the citation you supposedly are responding to:



"Seconds later when the shooting broke out, Cesar hit the floor and admitted drawing his weapon. Although two witnesses, one a newsman, said they saw the security guard fire, Gene says that he did not do so. He successfully passed a polygraph test organized by Dan Moldea in 1994. An LAPD polygraph was set up for him in 1968 but was cancelled for unknown reasons by authorities the day before it was to take place.

However, as Moldea also points out, Cesar was standing directly behind Kennedy when Sirhan began firing and, according to his own statements, was in a position to shoot Kennedy at a point blank range.

A total of five witnesses saw him draw the gun, and Cesar gave contradictory statements to police about exactly when he drew the weapon. (He also had been on guard duty in the pantry an hour earlier when Sirhan reportedly slipped into the area.)

The trajectory of the shots from the back, which went through Kennedy's coat as well as into his head, were perfectly aligned with where Cesar said he was on the floor. If he did not fire, then he should have been right next to whoever did shoot and witnessed the activity. He was never asked and never volunteered that information during the polygraph.

(...)

Gene Cesar somehow lost his clip-on necktie during the confusion. In the famous photo of a dying RFK sprawled on the pantry floor, a stray clip-on tie lies just a foot from Kennedy's clutched right hand."



Shannan's not the only one to point all this out. Deal with the above first, until then, spare us your irrelevant opinion of Shannan's resume.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Coming from someone down on Moldea, that is a really big LOL! n/t
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Zero still requires addition of $2 metro card for subway ride.
You forgot the laughing icon that automatically wins all arguments for barnacles.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Yeah.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. You're assuming what Shanna says is true
Do you know that to be a fact? Or, are you simply taking Shannan's word for it? Are you saying we should not evaluate his credibility? Are we supposed to take all writing at equal weight or should we try to determine how credible someone actually is? Are you honestly suggesting that this is something other than warmed-over conspiracy theory? You guys exhaust not only mean, but rationality.


You and your silly distraction charges. In actuality, you're trying to distract attention away from the fact that we should take what this guy says with a huge grain of salt.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. No, I'm taking Noguchi's word for it.
Shannan is just reporting what the coroner said - which was kept out of the Sirhan trial. And you're just trying a variant on an old dodge: "Hitler said the sun rises in the East, can we trust Hitler?"

"The autopsy report discusses the three wounds in Kennedy. The wound numbers are not meant to correspond to the order of entry of the bullets, which could not be determined. Wound #1 was to the head, the actual fatal wound. The bullet that entered fragmented into a couple of large and many tiny pieces. Two wound tracks were visible in the X-rays. Wounds #2 and #3 were fired from near the back of Kennedy’s armpit and traveled upward at angles of respectively 59 and 67-70 degrees to the vertical, moving back to front. Wound #2 was described as a "through and through" wound. Wound #3 was caused by a bullet moving in a nearly parallel path, but the bullet did not exit the skin, lodging near the 6th cervical vertebrae, just about where the neck meets the back. All three bullets traveled back to front, right to left, and upwards. There was a fourth bullet that passed through the outside of his coat without entering his skin, also traveling the same path. This, recall, was the bullet that was to have entered Paul Schrade’s head. The killer would have nearly had to be touching Kennedy from behind his right side to have fired any of these shots. Powder tests were conducted by LAPD Criminalist DeWayne Wolfer, and by Coroner Noguchi. Both concluded that the firing distance, based on comparable patterns produced by test firings, was approximately one inch."
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. But since Uecker could not have known the position of Kennedy throughout the event
You got nothing.

For someone who disposes of any statement coming from any tangentially linked member of the Bush Administration, Jack, you really should stay away from the sun-Hitler sneer.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&hl=en&geocode=&q=mirror...
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Uecker couldn't know, but obviously you do - thanks to Randivision (tm).
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Uecker was in front of Kennedy, looking at the gun and dealing with Sirhan.
There's no way he could know where Kennedy was during the entire event, unless you'd like to provide the photographic evidence of the eyes in the back of his head.

Your insults are sheer projection, and not worth responding to.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Field of vision
Hang on. He says "The revolver was directly in front of my nose."

Obviously he was not looking straight into the barrel. Then hed be dead.

So he was looking at the gun "in profile". ( More or less )

And his field of vision is ofcourse not narrowed down to 20 centimeters.

So he will see it if RFKs head / shoulder is directly in front of the gun.

There was a distance of at least one and one-half feet between the muzzle of Shirans gun and Senator Kennedys head."

When he says "directly infront of my nose", Im thinking, unless he was crouched down, this position of the gun does not fit with the two wounds in RFKs back. ( Just below the right armpit. )

And another thing that strikes me. If it is correct that witnesses say that the gun was held horizontally, then it seems like it would fit perfectly with the first shots being the ones that hit the door divider.

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #47
88. All very true about his field of vision...
Edited on Fri Jan-30-09 04:36 PM by JackRiddler
And it should settle things well enough.

But, reading all this again many months later, I am struck by how ridiculous it is in the first place for anyone to pretend they can know better than Uecker himself what he saw, according to what he says he saw. The only reason for this is because the official lone-shooter-was-Sirhan story must be true in the first place. So the odds of that are taken as 100%, therefore the inherently very unlikely idea that Uecker -- with his arms on Sirhan's gun arm -- doesn't know how close the gun is to Kennedy, must nevertheless be true, because otherwise the official story (=100% certainty always) would have to be false.

Meanwhile, the coroner's report also tells you the relevant facts.

And then the rest of the auto reactions here: the original story is about forensics specialists meeting in person to present their findings; rather than at least deconstructing said findings, the response is to pretend they must be "those kids" or the like. Because there's no interest in anything other than the necessary truth of the official story.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Bugliosi
Ive read a couple of places that lots of witnesses testified that the gun was at least two to five feet away from RFK.

"All witnesses testified that Kennedy fell facing Sirhan. The assassins gun arm was pinned down by maitred Uecker after two shots; it continued to squeeze the trigger on impulse or otherwise; but, witnesses claim, even though the remaining shots went askew Kennedy at no time turned his back to the weapon."

( link below )

One thing I didnt know is that Vincent Bugliosi looked into the case ( in the seventies ) and what he came up with (!)

"Vincent Bugliosi, the lawyer who skyrocketed to fame with his intense prosecution of cult killer Charles Manson, enlisted his services in 1975. He sought affidavits from several people whom, he learned, had stated they remembered seeing bullet holes in the then-door divider. Noguchi, for one, said that it had been his understanding that the holes he is pointing to and measuring in the above-mentioned photos were scars made by bullets. Maitred Angelo DiPierro concurred that, as far as he was concerned, those were undoubtedly bullet holes, for had seen "a small caliber bullet lodged about a quarter of an inch into the wood on the center divider of the two swinging doors." Having served in the U.S. Infantry when younger, DiPierro confirmed, "There is no question in my mind that this was a bullet and not a nail or any other object."
Bugliosi also took testimony from a witness, Martin Patrusky, who witnessed the polices reconstruction of the shooting. "One of the officers pointed to the two circled holes on the center divider (and) told us that they dug two bullets outand I would be willing to testify to this under oath and under penalty of perjury.""

http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/assassins/...

Bugliosi in 1978 :

"I have no way of knowing for sure whether or not more than one gun was fired at the assassination scene. And I have formed no opinion at this point. What I will say is this: the signed statements given me perhaps can be explained away; but in the absence of a logical explanation, these statements, by simple arithmetic, add up to too many bullets and therefore, the probability of a second gun." -Vincent Bugliosi 1978"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ4UgPBS4RA

How evidence disappeared :

"Over 90% of the audiotaped witness testimony was lost or destroyed. Of the 3470 interviews the LAPD conducted, only 301 were preserved. Key testimony - like 29 witness accounts that suggested conspiracy - was missing, while less important interviews - like that of Sirhan's Bible teacher - remained."

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/FBI/Who_Killed_R_Kenn...

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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. ... was an early champion of reopening the RFK case against Sirhan Sirhan
In a declaration filed with the courts, Bugliosi stated:
"Sgt. Rozzi had told me and he told me unequivocally that it was a bullet in the hole and when I told him that Sgt. Rozzi had informed me that he was pretty sure that the bullet was removed from the hole, Sgt. Wright replied 'There is no pretty sure about it. It definitely was removed from the hole, but I do not know who did it.'"

Shortly after the assassination, the LAPD removed the doorjambs and ceiling panels in the Ambassador Hotel and booked them into evidence. One has to wonder why someone would tear off a doorframe or book a ceiling panel into evidence if it contained no evidence of bullets.

Bugliosi is also major figure in Turner and Christian's important The Assassination of Robert F Kennedy, passionately arguing there was a "conspiracy mosaic" behind Sirhan's conviction...
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. ...has probably changed his mind between then and now. n/t
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Perhaps ...
but I give Bugliosi more credit than that.

Jim DiEugenio makes the case here that Bugliosi backed himself into a corner in the JFK case. Gaining a false sense of the case from his drubbing of the ill-prepared Gerry Spence, in The Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald, Vince signs a book deal. Already committed to the book Vince then has to contend with the release of the movie JFK and the subsequent 1992 JFK Assassination Records Act. Which led to the formation of the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB).

So now Vince Bugliosi has put himself into this box in the JFK case. Since he can no longer argue the facts he resorts to smearing his critics. In the RFK case Bugliosi has no such quandary. Vince is still free to argue the facts of the RFK case.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Bwa!
I would discuss your self-serving handwave of Bugliosi's massive tome of the JFK assassination, but this is a thread about RFK.

And after publishing a book ridiculing the JFK conspiracists so thoroughly (while still putting together some incredible work), I rather doubt that Bugliosi still holds to his RFK beliefs. In fact, the book can be easily seen as penance.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. You are correct...
about the penance but wrong about the context.

His upcoming Rush Limbaugh expos will be the penance for his JFK fiasco.

Close but no cigar.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. And it's irrelevant.
As a renowned prosecutor he made a series of specific, public and factual statements about the RFK case. What's he going to do now, claim there were no bullets fished out of the holes, the witness lied then because an LAPD official who wasn't even born in 1968 says so today? Whether it's opportunism, senility or something more sinister, who cares what Bugliosi says 33 years later? Mamet just announced a conversion to "conservatism" (radical imperialism), David Horowitz once played a Maoist on TV, Norman Mailer's testosterone levels finally drove him into the arms of the CIA, and maybe later this year Oliver Stone will endorse Bush Jr. as an honest, level guy, but none of that would necessarily reflect the truth or untruth of their prior statements and beliefs, which stand or fall on their own content.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #42
78. Spence, Bugliosi and 40 years later...
Good to see Gerry Spence go out on top (his lackluster defense of Oswald not withstanding)...

and Bugliosi's back from the dark side to attack the true criminals.



"The Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy: Killing Hope"

National Coalition on Political Assassinations in Los Angeles

40th Anniversary of Robert F. Kennedy Assassination

Important New Forensic Evidence

June 6-8, 2008, Los Angeles, CA

Custom Hotel
8639 Lincoln Blvd. (Pacific Coast Highway) at W. Manchester, near LAX
(310) 645-0400, or call toll-free in the US and Canada: (877) 287-8601
KJ's Diner, Banquet Room
8731 Lincoln Blvd. (Pacific Coast Highway), at W. Manchester Ave.
Banquet Room has separate entrance on Loyola Blvd., parking available

Speakers and films:

Friday, June 6

Dinner: 6:00 pm, KJ's Diner, Banquet Room, 8731 Lincoln Blvd. (Pacific Coast Highway), at W. Manchester Ave.
Banquet Room has separate entrance on Loyola Blvd., parking available

Keynote: 7:00 pm
Custom Hotel, 8639 Lincoln Blvd. (Pacific Coast Highway) at W. Manchester Ave.
Prairie Room, 2nd Floor

Panel Discussion:

Dr. Robert Joling, forensic expert and co-author of An Open and Shut Case,
www.anopenandshutcase.com

Philip Van Praag, audio engineer, analyzed tape of RFK assassination with 13 shots, co-
author of An Open and Shut Case

Paul Schrade, eyewitness and victim in the Ambassador pantry shooting in 1968,
working to reopen the case
Biography

Also speaking that night:

Dr. William Pepper, Esq, former attorney for James Earl Ray and Martin Luther King
family in civil suit exonerating Ray, author of Orders to Kill
Biography

Cynthia McKinney, former Congresswoman from Georgia, presidential candidate, 2008 Green Party
Website

Friday night's event will be live-streamed at our COPA website, www.politicalassassinations.com


Film after speakers, 10:00 pm

Mark Sobel, documentary filmmaker, producer of "The Commission" will show his new film on RFK's murder. IMDB


Saturday, June 7
10:00 am 5:00 pm

KJ's Diner, Banquet Room, 8731 Lincoln Blvd. (Pacific Coast Highway), at W. Manchester Ave.
Banquet Room has separate entrance on Loyola Blvd., parking available

10:00 am, Breakfast Bar

1:00 am, Speakers

Lisa Pease, researcher and co-author of /The Assassinations, /and many others.
Biography

William Turner, former FBI agent, author of /The Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy/
Biography

2:00 - Lunch Buffet

Michael Calder, author of 'JFK v CIA' with new evidence from the RFK police files
Book

Summer Reese, lawyer and associate of Lawrence Teeter, Esq., Sirhan's
previous attorney, working closely with Sirhan Sirhan's family to
establish his innocence.

Shane O'Sullivan, film documentarian, director of "RFK Must Die" and author of "Who Killed Bobby?" Will discuss "Who else was involved?"
www.rfkmustdie.com

5:00 pm, Dinner buffet

Films after dinner, 7:00 pm

Sunday, June 8
9:00 am - 12:00 noon

KJ's Diner, Banquet Room, 8731 Lincoln Blvd. (Pacific Coast Highway), at W. Manchester Ave.
Banquet Room has separate entrance on Loyola Blvd., parking available

9:00 am - Breakfast Bar

9:30 am, Speaker

Ted Charach, researcher and producer whose film /The Second Gun /reopened the case in the 1970s.

http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2008/06/john-me...

http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2008/05/rfk-ass...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #39
114. There was distance and there was the fact gun was in FRONT of RFK ....
while wounds are in back of RFK's body --

Impossible to do from the front!

This was obviously the work of the guard - - Ceasar? We should get his name

out there again!!



When JFK was killed in Dallas -- 50% of Dallas police force were KKK --

When RFK was killed in LA -- 50% of LAPD were John Birchers -- a Koch enterprise!!

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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #34
49. Show me where Shannan cites a specific source and links to it
Edited on Wed Apr-09-08 03:36 PM by SDuderstadt
I went through it three times and all I can find is what Shannan says that various people said. Doesn't that strike you as a little odd? Or, is it just CT standard operating procedure to selectively cite testimony or evidence and not give the reader the whole picture or link them to the actual source material so they can see it for themselves?

As far as your little quip about Hitler, it's kinda silly to suggest that I demonized Shannan in order to discredit him. I read what Shannan says about himself on his own website and suggested that we can evaluate his credibility upon the basis of that. You can believe Shannan if you want, but more rational people demand a higher standard of proof, Jack.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Shannan has nothing to do with it. It's Noguchi, the coroner.
The autopsy findings are well-known, not in dispute, and available from dozens of sources not by someone named Shannan, including Noguchi himself in his own book.

So stop using Shannan as your shield to thinking. It's obtuse.

(Note: I also didn't say you "demonized" Shannan, but gave an illustrative example of the fallacy you insist upon repeating, that if you find an author personally suspect, you need not consider his factual statements on their own, even when they are verifiable independently of the author's citation. So if a fact is cited even by Hitler, it can still be true.)

Homework is not hard. Here's the second google hit on "Noguchi powder burns Kennedy":

http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/assassins/...

Los Angeles Coroner Thomas Noguchi conducted the official autopsy on the body of Robert Francis Kennedy on the morning of July 6. This very experienced coroner removed one intact bullet and fragments from another. The operation was witnessed by, according to writer Dan Moldea, "three forensic pathologists from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington and by two of Noguchi’s associates."

In his resulting 62-page report, Noguchi stated that the shot that killed RFK "had entered through the mastoid bone, an inch behind the right ear and had traveled upward to sever the branches of the superior cerebral artery." The largest fragment of that bullet lodged in the brain stem.

(much detail follows on bullets and their probable paths...)

One more issue remained, one that neither Noguchi, the LAPD, nor the witnesses at the crime scene could explain – and one that continues to haunt theorists and historians of the assassination to this day. The shot that both Noguchi and the Los Angeles conclude killed Kennedy – the one that entered the back of his neck, fragmented upon impact and lodged in his brain stem – was fired so close that it left thick powder burns on the skin. Coroner Noguchi estimates (and the LAPD concurs) that the shot was fired at a range no more distant than one-and-a-half inches. Yet, according to all witnesses, Sirhan Sirhan shot in front of Kennedy and, as far as anyone knew, the senator never had the chance to turn his back towards his hunter.

Even though Noguchi remained tight-lipped and diplomatic at the time, in his biography that he penned a decade later – entitled Coroner -- he wrote, "Until more is precisely known…the existence of a second gunman remains a possibility. Thus, I have never said that Sirhan Sirhan killed Robert Kennedy."


As I remember, and here's something you can look up yourself in exchange for my doing basic research on your behalf: Noguchi's autopsy findings were not admitted into the Sirhan trial due to the incompetence of the defense attorney (who was also not named Shannan).
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. You need to pay attention, Jack
At all points along the way, I was talking about Shannan's credibility. You chose to jump in and try to change the subject. And, it's hardly a fallacy to impeach a claimant's credibility based upon a lack of expertise, not providing links or support for claims, etc. Why can't you simply admit that Shannan might be not worth citing as a source?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. No, you jumped into a discussion of the bullets and powder burns...
and used Shannan's bio as a discrediting device, when this is entirely irrelevant since there is no dispute whatsoever concerning Noguchi's autopsy, which the LAPD also confirms. (I didn't cite Shannan, so I don't have to "admit" anything.)

Why can't you admit you are distracting from the relevant point in this discussion: the powder burns. The assassination of RFK.

Can you say Noguchi? It is not spelled s-h-a-n-n-a-n. Can you say that name, once? Or do you prefer to be irrelevant to this discussion?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Jesus Fucking Christ, Jack...
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 01:13 PM by SDuderstadt
Let me recount the actual conversation for you so you quit conflating what I actually said into something I never said. Can you follow a thread?

K-robjoe said:

"Powder burns on Kennedy's clothing reveal that all three of his wounds were from a gun fired from 0 to 1-1/2 inches away. And yet, all witnesses claim that Sirhan's gun could not possibly have done this, for not one person places Sirhan's gun that close, and according to the general consensus Sirhan's gun never got closer than three feet away.

Three bullets were found in Robert F. Kennedy, and a fourth grazed his suit jacket. The upward angle of every shot was so steep as to be much closer to straight up than horizontal (80 degrees). And yet, all witnesses claim Sirhan's gun was completely horizontal for his first two shots, after which his gun hand was repeatedly slammed against a stem table (and now so far away from Kennedy that any errant shots of such upwardness would have been twenty feet high before reaching Kennedy, as opposed to entering Kennedy's backside as they did)."

http://www.bobby-kennedy.com/rfkassassination.htm


To which I replied:

So, let me make sure I get this straight...someone other than Sirhan Sirhan shot RFK from 0-1 1/2 inches away and no one saw it? You expect us to believe this crap?


To which K-robjoe replied:

Its all very confusing

I would need to read more about it. But according to this, witnesses saw a gun just behind RFK, and two witnesses say it was fired.

"Seconds later when the shooting broke out, Cesar hit the floor and admitted drawing his weapon. Although two witnesses, one a newsman, said they saw the security guard fire, Gene says that he did not do so. He successfully passed a polygraph test organized by Dan Moldea in 1994. An LAPD polygraph was set up for him in 1968 but was cancelled for unknown reasons by authorities the day before it was to take place.

However, as Moldea also points out, Cesar was standing directly behind Kennedy when Sirhan began firing and, according to his own statements, was in a position to shoot Kennedy at a point blank range.

A total of five witnesses saw him draw the gun, and Cesar gave contradictory statements to police about exactly when he drew the weapon. (He also had been on guard duty in the pantry an hour earlier when Sirhan reportedly slipped into the area.)

The trajectory of the shots from the back, which went through Kennedy's coat as well as into his head, were perfectly aligned with where Cesar said he was on the floor. If he did not fire, then he should have been right next to whoever did shoot and witnessed the activity. He was never asked and never volunteered that information during the polygraph.

(...)

Gene Cesar somehow lost his clip-on necktie during the confusion. In the famous photo of a dying RFK sprawled on the pantry floor, a stray clip-on tie lies just a foot from Kennedy's clutched right hand."

http://www.patshannan.bizland.com/assassinationsrobertk ...


To which I replied:

I don't think your "source" is particularly believable

Have you read what his own website says about him?


"Pat Shannan has been investigating and writing about the Oklahoma City bombing case since the day it happened. As investigative reporter for Chuck Harder and "The People's Radio Network," he traveled to the scene numerous times to interview witnesses, survivors, and other investigators. A later result of this work became "Murder in the Heartland," a two-hour video documentary on the subject, which he has referred to as "the biggest cover-up since the Kennedy and King assassinations of the 1960s."

In the 1960s, Shannan traveled the world as a night club entertainer. In the 1970s, he built an international marketing organization producing a six-figure income, which eventually was defrauded away by the federal government. In the 1980s, he became educated on the subject of the fraud in the in the Federal Reserve system and its co-conspirator, the IRS, when the latter agency began to unlawfully steal his assets from him.



In 1985, he presented his weekly Executive Intelligence Report on the award-winning Morton Downey, Jr. radio show in Cleveland, Ohio. He wrote his first book in 1987, The Banksters, which exposes the truths of monetary realism vs. deficit spending of via legal tender "credit money."

In 1991, Pat successfully defended himself before a jury in federal court against a trumped-up charge of "Conspiracy" - that catch-all charge the government often uses to dispose of people who diligently exercise their First Amendment rights. He is of the fervent belief that had he used a court-appointed attorney, he would have been convicted and incarcerated in a federal camp as one more political prisoner in America. Instead, his jury said, "Not Guilty."

Shannan published his second book in 1992 - I RODE WITH TUPPER - the true-life suspense thriller story of the persecution, prosecution, and
attempted murder of his friend and fellow writer, Tupper Saussy. It is also a handbook for the historical truths surrounding the founding of this once-great nation - a "must read" for any confused American, as it contains so much of the information which the government prefers the people not know.

In May and June of 1996, Pat Shannan spent a total of 18 days on two separate trips covering the Montana Freemen story. He was the only journalist allowed jailhouse interviews by the Freemen during and after the siege at the Clark Ranch. His book, THE MONTANA FREEMEN - The Untold Story of Government Suppression and the News Media Cover-up, explains the Freemen's stand and how the federal judiciary pulled out all stops to prevent the exposure of the banker's sham. It is a compilation of the lawful facts which CNN and Associated Press refused to report.

Currently, Pat Shannan is the Journalist-at-Large for Media Bypass magazine. He resides in the deep South and spends his time investigating and exposing suppressed information - through radio reporting, researching, and writing. He hosts the Media Bypass Radio Hour weekday mornings on the Truth Radio Network and "Pat Shannan's Investigative Reports" weekday evenings on the Heritage Network. His latest book, his first novel - ONE IN A MILLION - was released in January of 1999 and is available through Barnes & Noble or your local bookstore.


This guy sounds like a veritable nutcase. Maybe you should read about the logical fallacy called "false certainty". Simply because someone wrote something, hardly makes it true. What reason do you have to take anything this guy says seriously?"




Now, what's confusing (perhaps intentionally, in true CT form) is Shannan's account (which, if you'd check, was all I was ever taking exception to), which led me, along with reading his bio, to state that I did not find him particularly credible.

Shannan states:

Although two witnesses, one a newsman, said they saw the security guard fire, Gene says that he did not do so


Why doesn't Shannan tell us the names of the witnesses? Don't you think that's important to the credibility of the account?

A total of five witnesses saw him draw the gun, and Cesar gave contradictory statements to police about exactly when he drew the weapon.


Why doesn't Shannan give us the names of these five witnesses?

The trajectory of the shots from the back, which went through Kennedy's coat as well as into his head, were perfectly aligned with where Cesar said he was on the floor.


Hmmmm, so Cesar was on the floor. That doesn't sound like he's 0 to 1 1/2 inches away from RFK to me, Jack. Does it to you? I go back to my original question. Someone other than Sirhan shot RFK from a mere 1 to 1 1/2 inches away and NONE of the 75 or so people there saw it? Answer that and you might have something. Otherwise, it's nearly 40 years after RFK's assassination and you CT's are still acting like Raymond Babbitt in "Rainman", convinced that "Who's on 1st?" is a riddle.

See, Jack? Shannan isn't citing Noguchi directly and leaving it at that. He is adding his take on things in a very unconvincing manner. I am saying I don't find Shannan a particularly credible source and if you do, I cannot help you. Maybe you ought to butt out of the discussion between the other poster and myself, okay?






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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. "so Cesar was on the floor"
If you find that Cesar is a guy that you can trust blindly in all this, then that will be your conclusion.

But I dont really know if he is.

I came across this article about a Discovery Times Channel broadcast, where they apparently have more on the witness Don Schulman. Would like to see this broadcast.

"On June 6, 2007 the Discovery Times Channel broadcast a one-hour special on the murder of Senator Robert Kennedy in Los Angeles at the Ambassador Hotel on June 4, 1968. (...)

A previously taped interview followed as the show tried to focus on a chief suspect in the killing, Thane Eugene Cesar. Don Shulman, a runner for a press organization, said that he saw the security guard behind Kennedy pull his gun and fire three shots during the fusillade. In an interview done for the show, Charach said that Cesar changed his story on this point, but he has him admitting to pulling his gun on tape. Joling chimed in here by saying that no other gun was tested by the LAPD and that Cesar was allowed to leave the pantry for ten minutes before returning to collect his tie, which had fallen on the floor. The implicit point here being that although Cesar says he was carrying a .38 that night, he also owned a .22, an issue which he also lied about. And it is this smaller caliber weapon which LAPD says was used in the crime."

http://www.ctka.net/consp_test.html

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #54
115. Thane Eugene Cesar -- a name we need to keep out there for all to see ... !!!
Thanks for the recap --

:)

"On June 6, 2007 the Discovery Times Channel broadcast a one-hour special on the murder of Senator Robert Kennedy in Los Angeles at the Ambassador Hotel on June 4, 1968. (...)

A previously taped interview followed as the show tried to focus on a chief suspect in the killing, Thane Eugene Cesar. Don Shulman, a runner for a press organization, said that he saw the security guard behind Kennedy pull his gun and fire three shots during the fusillade. In an interview done for the show, Charach said that Cesar changed his story on this point, but he has him admitting to pulling his gun on tape. Joling chimed in here by saying that no other gun was tested by the LAPD and that Cesar was allowed to leave the pantry for ten minutes before returning to collect his tie, which had fallen on the floor. The implicit point here being that although Cesar says he was carrying a .38 that night, he also owned a .22, an issue which he also lied about. And it is this smaller caliber weapon which LAPD says was used in the crime."

http://www.ctka.net/consp_test.html


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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. This is an open board, members may respond to any post.
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 01:56 PM by JackRiddler
Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan
Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan
Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan
Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Noguchi Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan
Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan
Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan
Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan Shannan
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. I see neither you nor K-robjoe can answer the question I posed
Someone other than Sirhan shot RFK from 0 to 1 1/2 inches away and NO ONE of the 75 or so people who were there saw it? Fricking amazing and par for the course from the CT crowd.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Many people saw Cesar with his gun drawn.
After the firing he approached Sirhan with it and Rosie Greer made him put it away (the football star who was a Kennedy entourage member and body guard).

Witnesses claimed they saw Cesar fire, according to the police reports, but these accounts were dismissed by the LAPD. Sirhan's lawyer is trying to get this back into court. A Lisa Urso saw an additional man putting away a gun. Obviously most everyone saw Sirhan firing and then there was chaos.

But you don't seem interested in learning about the case, anyway. From your posts I doubt you've read much about the case before this thread.

http://www.citizine.net/politics/politics_0506_rfk_twhi...

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/26th_Is...
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. If by "learning about the case" you mean buying what some...
conspiracy website says hook, line and sinker, you're right, I don't. CT's typically focus on anomalies, ignoring the bigger picture and the internal consistency of the narrative to draw unwarranted conclusions that just don't add up. For example, you say numerous witnesses saw Cesar fire. Do these same witnesses claim it was from 0 to 1 1/2 inches? If they do, don't you think nearly EVERYONE would have seen it? Furthermore, are you claiming Cesar was somehow coordinating with Sirhan? Do you have any evidence at all that they had ever met before? Are you saying ballistics reports that matched the bullet(s)/fragments recovered from RFK don't match up with Sirhan's gun? Is there any conspiracy theory so goofy even YOU won't embrace it, Jack?

I've actually met Rosie Greer and Rafer Johnson (at an EMK campaign event) and spoken to both of them about that night. I also know Ethel Kennedy through Special Olympics. Funny thing is, not one of the three of them has the suspicions you do about that night. Go figure.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. yawn...
several times I asked you about the powder burns. You have nothing to say, only a general agenda.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. No, Jack...
you can't answer a simple question...if someone other than Sirhan was that close and shot RFK, why didn't anyone see it?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. general agenda.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. Donald Schulman, of KNXT Television
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Thanks! n/t
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #58
74. I'd heard that Cesar was the actual assassin. He's alive and well,
living in Florida, I believe. :mad: :puke: :grr:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #74
116. Evidently they don't need to eliminate him .... !! But, some say they saw at least
two with guns -- and I would imagine that they wouldn't have planned it with just

Cesar covering? Think Sirhan has since said they told him he was shooting at a

shooting range target?

Evidently a physiciatrist who does de-programming has worked with him --

though for years they wouldn't allow it!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
66. Who said no one saw it? There were people who saw it ---
and, as I recall it, there are witnesses who saw two others with guns ---

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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. Then name them, D&P and...
provide some links
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
84. Here, let me settle this
***EVERYTHING THE GOVERNMENT HAS EVER TOLD YOU IS TRUE***
***EVERY FINDING OF EVERY OFFICIAL INVESTIGATIVE BODY IS CORRECT***
***THERE HAVE NEVER BEEN ANY CONSPIRACIES INVOLVING THE US GOVERNMENT***

There, I believe these declarations should satisfy 1/2 of the dungeon denizens.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Aww. Do you need some juice? n/t
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Which doesn't answer the question...
Powder burns....

or tattooing, begin to occur as the gun is backed up to more than 1/2" from the body. The maximum distance from which powder burns can occur depends a good deal upon the type of gun used.

Powder burns

are orange brownish reddish in appearance. If they are gray or yellow, the victim was already dead when the shot was inflicted. Powder burns are caused by burning particles of powder which are ejected from the gun and become imbedded into the live skin. There is no actual burning of the skin which takes place. In that sense, the name powder burn is a misnomer. The particles simply penetrate into the skin and finish burning there by themselves. At closer than 1/2", the powder grains do not have a chance to spread out behind the bullet. They go into the entry wound rather than tattooing the skin around the entry wound.


http://dmmoyle.com/simeans.htm

Iver Johnson .22 caliber: at what distance is it likely to produce powder burns? .22 caliber in general?

Since you're citing wikipedia, what the hell, I'll do the same (possibly my first cite of it ever):

In conducting an autopsy on Kennedy, Los Angeles coroner Thomas N. Noguchi found powder burns on Kennedy's ear and gunpowder residue in his hair. Noguchi said this indicated that Kennedy was shot from a distance of, at most, 1.5 inches. (When a firearm is discharged, the powder travels only a few inches because the gas is very light.) Noguchi's conclusions led to speculation that Sirhan was too far from Kennedy to have adminstered the fatal shot, and that a second shooter must have been present. Noguchi himself wrote years later that "Until more is precisely known…the existence of a second gunman remains a possibility. Thus, I have never said that Sirhan Sirhan killed Robert Kennedy."(4)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=Robert_F._...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #16
113. You're in denial that gun was still in FRONT of RFK while wounds are in back ...
Also that 3 feet isn't what Naguchi is describing in the wounds evident on RFK's

body and his clothing --

The gun would have had to have been pretty much TOUCHING RFK to create those power

burns/wounds --

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
7. MLK - William F. Pepper & Judge Joe Brown on NPR - 4.4.2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

MLK - William F. Pepper & Judge Joe Brown on NPR - 4.4.2008

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89...

Tell Me More, April 4, 2008 Joe Brown, of the syndicated television program, "Judge Joe Brown," discusses presiding over the final appeal of convicted King assassin James Earl Ray. Also joining the discussion is Ray's former attorney, William Pepper, author of An Act of State: The Execution of Martin Luther King.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
71. Thank you ... saved to my favs ---
A little behind in my internet reading right now!!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
91. Thank you for the links . . . saving them for another day!
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
37. CIA Operative/LAPD Detective Hank Hernadez v Sandy Serrano
Aside from the recent acoustical evidence, too many bullet's found in the pantry to have come from one gun, and the findings of LA County coroner Thomas Noguchi. This is the best evidence:

Why would Hank Hernandez want Sandy Serrano to change her story? Here's CIA Operative/LAPD Detective Hank Hernandez interrogation of Sandy Serrano at the end of this video ( note: the audio clip 3 minutes into this video is taken from this interview )...

YouTube - RFK Assassination: The Girl in the Polka Dot Dress, Part 1
and the beginning of this one.
YouTube - RFK Assassination: The Girl in the Polka Dot Dress, Part 2]

Not to mention the destruction of Scott Enyart's photos.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
The Existentialist Cowboy: Evidence That the CIA Murdered RFK
http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2008/03/rfk-ass...
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAkennedyR.htm
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Scott Enyart
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. The RFK 'Zapruder Film'
Jim DiEugenio compares the Enyart Photos to the Zapruder Film here.

He also recommends Tim Tate's The Assassination of Robert Kennedy (1992) as the best documentary done on any of the assassinations of the 1960's.

Jim also points to Michael Wayne as a third gunman, along with Sirhan and Thane Eugene Caesar, and the likely killer.

http://www.blackopradio.com/pod/black355a.mp3
http://www.ctka.net/pr598-rfk.html
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
67. Ah, yes, this is a tape that has to be heard . . . I've heard it a few times and it's
really outrageous!

In fact, I couldn't recall who the guy was --- thanks for the name . . .
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. You are welcome.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Thank you -- saved and listening to one now . . . A&E/History Channel
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 07:57 PM by defendandprotect
used to play the Serrano tape within one of their documentaries . . . which are noticably
not being seen lately.

I taped it --- DVD -- a long time ago -- but, these things tend to get put away in safe places
in my household -- and difficult to find again!

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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
48. RFK | USAID | SUS

USAID the agency that spawned CIA Operatives turned LAPD Detectives, Manny Pena and Hank Hernandez, as seen here:

YouTube - RFK Assassination: The Girl in the Polka Dot Dress, Part 1

Is back in the news:

Sixto Reinaldo Aquit Manrique (aka, El Chino Aquit), sharing the platform with Bush in Miami, May 20, 2002.The UN Rapporteur cited Aquit firing a 50 caliber machine gun at a Cypriot tanker in Cuban waters in his 1994 annual report on human rights in Cuba.

Bush aide resigns after financial improprieties - USATODAY.com
Bush aide resigns - The White House - MSNBC.com
BREAKING NEWS: White House says a presidential aide has resigned after engaging in improprieties - Democratic Underground
Democratic Underground - LAPD's Special Unit Senator was headed by a CIA guy named Pena - Democratic Underground
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
76. "RFK" (documentary; 2008)
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Thank you MinM
for all your posts

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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #76
106. The Assassination of Robert Kennedy (1992)

by Tim Tate
Copyright 2005 riceNpeas

The Assassination of Robert Kennedy, a gripping documentary by the acclaimed producer Chris Plumley, exposes how the CIA planted two operatives within the Los Angeles Police Department who manipulated the investigation of Kennedys assassination.

Robert Kennedys death seemed an open and shut case, yet in spite of the testimonies of seventy-seven witnesses, it remains shrouded in mystery. Many witnesses at the time complained of pressure by the LAPD to change their testimony. For the first time, Plumley exposes how evidence was changed: how an FBI officer saw bullets being removed from the scene of the assassination and how LAPD officers who didnt tow the line found themselves suspended on ridiculous charges or taken off the case.

This hard-hitting documentary is produced in the gripping style of The Day The Dream Died, the documentary which catapulted Chris Plumley to international prominence and formed the backbone of Oliver Stones acclaimed film JFK.

Producer : Tim Tate
Executive Producer : Chris Plumley
Editor : Richard L. Hohman
Duration : 52 minutes
Language : English

http://www.ricenpeas.com/docs/the_assassination_of_robe...

http://www.blackopradio.com/pod/black531b.mp3
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
82. Uh, huh. They decided to release this "blockbuster news" from a CASINO?
Jeez, THAT lends it some authenticity, doesn't it?

Redstone
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Oh stop it
Edited on Wed Aug-06-08 05:08 PM by seemslikeadream
IT WASN'T IN THE GAMBLING CASINO


Here's the MGM Meeting Rooms
http://www.mgmatfoxwoods.com /

http://www.foxwoods.com/OurWonders/Meetings/FacilitySer...
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
87. Have you listened to the interview with Shane O Sullivan, author "Who Killed Bobby?"
You can link to it off Black Op Radio's archive page here:
http://www.blackopradio.com/archives2008.html

From the bulleted highlights-

# Shane started with a strong curiosity in the RFK assassination culminating in his movie and this book
# Sirhan Sirhan: The demonized character and thew reality, a normal guy
# Sirhan remembers absolutely nothing about the RFK assassination
# William Pepper is trying to get a hypnotist to Sirhan to try to bring out the truth
# Sandra Serrano: Very clear about the girl in the polkadot dress
# Shane explains his identifications of three CIA operatives in the Ambassador Hotel photos
# Sometimes the leads don't pan out. They're inconclusive but still very intriguing
# A talk about the COPA RFK Conference in Los Angeles
# Sirhan needs a fair trial no matter what the outcome
# Dr Pepper's strategy with Sirhan's case
# This may be the last shot at exhonorating Sirhan so Pepper is being thorough
# Shane feels the best strategy for reopening the RFK case is examining the 13 shots
# Sirhan could only have fired 8 at best and all from the front
# The fatal shot came from behind Robert Kennedy
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
89. 41 Years Since RFK Assassination
Edited on Fri Mar-20-09 01:33 PM by MinM
Mounting Evidence of CIA Involvement
Robert F. Kennedy was assassinated 40 years ago this month at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. Sirhan B. Sirhan, a 24 year old immigrant, is the alleged lone gunman and is presently serving a life sentence.

In a new book, An Open and Shut Case, Dr. Robert Joling and Philip Van Praag have joined a growing list of people who dont believe that Sirhan acted alone.

Joling and Van Praag, both forensic scientists, claim that after analyzing audio recordings of the assassination they have concluded that at least 13 shots were fired. The handgun Sirhan used only had the capacity to fire eight shots. They believe that there were two guns and that the fatal shot came from behind Robert Kennedy, while witnesses claim that Sirhan was in front of Kennedy. According to a March 27, 2008 ABC report by Pierre Thomas, Joling claims, It can be established conclusively that Sirhan did not shoot Senator Kennedy. And in fact not only did he not do it, he could not have done it.

Los Angeles Coroner Thomas Noguchi conducted the official autopsy on the body of Robert Francis Kennedy on the morning of June 6, 1968. Noguchi stated that the shot that killed RFK had entered through the mastoid bone, an inch behind the right ear and had traveled upward to sever the branches of the superior cerebral artery....
http://www.lewrockwell.com/spl/rfk-40.html

http://www.anopenandshutcase.com/?cat=1
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-25-09 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
90. The myth of the lone gunman . . . the misfit -- !!!!
Edited on Wed Mar-25-09 02:29 AM by defendandprotect
There was an important breakthru last year or so re the presence of some

CIA people in the ballroom. It's late, so I hope everyone is familiar

with this cause I'm not looking it up right now!!

Just a reminder!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
92. k i c k
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-03-09 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
93. RFK Assassin Sirhan Sirhan Moved to New Prison
http://justiceforkennedy.blogspot.com/2009/11/sirhan-mo...

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-sirhan-sirhan,0,1...
KTLA News
3:48 PM PST, November 2, 2009

LOS ANGELES - An attorney for the man who assassinated Robert F. Kennedy said Monday his client was transferred from a prison that houses high-risk offenders to a new facility where his life could be in danger.

Attorney William F. Pepper said Sirhan Sirhan opposed the move from the state prison in Corcoran, which houses high-risk prisoners such as Charles Manson, to Pleasant Valley State Prison in Coalinga.

"Our main concern is for his safety," said Laurie Dusek, an associate of Pepper. "We are not sure that Pleasant Valley has the ability to protect him. He is a target."

Pepper said he has new evidence and wants to reopen Sirhan's case.

Oscar Hidalgo, a spokesman for the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, said Sirhan, 65, had requested the transfer and wants to stay in Pleasant Valley.

"After discussing his hesitation with prison officials at Pleasant Valley, Sirhan Sirhan indicated he wanted to stay at the new facility after all," Hidalgo said. "He can indicate if he feels unsafe at any point and the department will respond appropriately."

Sirhan is serving a life sentence for the 1968 killing of Kennedy. He had been housed for years in the protective unit at Corcoran, one of the most isolated units in the state prison system.

Pepper said neither he nor Sirhan had requested the move and neither had received notice until Sirhan was actually moved last Thursday.

Hidalgo countered in a written statement that the move followed numerous requests by Sirhan to be transferred from Corcoran.

"His movements there have been extremely controlled and his exposure to others extremely limited," Hidalgo said.

Hidalgo could not immediately give details of Sirhan's new living arrangements or how much contact he has with other prisoners.

He said Sirhan's lawyers were notified of the move, but both Pepper and Dusek said they were not told of the transfer.

Dusek said she had contacted prison officials, checking on a report from Sirhan's brother that he might be moved. Authorities denied any knowledge of such a change, she said.

Pepper said he wrote to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger protesting the move. The governor's office said it had not received any communication on the matter.

Munir Sirhan confirmed that he had notified the lawyer about the transfer and said his brother had asked to be moved at one point but not to Pleasant Valley.

Sirhan Sirhan did not feel safe at Corcoran after he was singled out after the Sept. 11 attacks by guards who thought he was a Muslim, even though he is a Christian
, his brother said.

Branded a potential terrorist, Sirhan was placed in total isolation where he remained for six years before being returned to the protected housing unit, Munir Sirhan and Dusek said.

Pepper took up Sirhan's cause after lawyer Lawrence Teeter died in 2005. Teeter claimed new ballistics and other evidence proved the killing was part of a conspiracy.

Pepper said he has hired a psychologist to try to help Sirhan retrieve memories of the night that Kennedy was shot. Sirhan has claimed he remembers nothing.

Pepper also represented Martin Luther King assassin James Earl Ray in the last years of his life. He attempted to prove that Ray was not the lone assassin who shot King, and that the civil rights leader's death was part of a conspiracy.

Copyright 2009, KTLA-TV, Los Angeles

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-03-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. Jack Ruby tried to tell the truth -- tried to get a new trial -- as he got closer to it . ..
they killed him!

I think Pepper and Sirhan are probably looking at this transfer the same way --
In recent years, it's become glaringly obvious that CIA was involved and RFK was
probably shot by guard behind him -- can't recall his name? "Cesar" somthing?

But Peppeer is certainly a threat to them --

Pepper took up Sirhan's cause after lawyer Lawrence Teeter died in 2005. Teeter claimed new ballistics and other evidence proved the killing was part of a conspiracy.

As I recall Teeter, he was also looking rather like a huge threat to the conspirators.

THIS would also be a huge threat to them -- looks like Sirhan had been hypnotized . . .

Pepper said he has hired a psychologist to try to help Sirhan retrieve memories of the night that Kennedy was shot. Sirhan has claimed he remembers nothing.


AND ....

Pepper also represented Martin Luther King assassin James Earl Ray in the last years of his life. He attempted to prove that Ray was not the lone assassin who shot King, and that the civil rights leader's death was part of a conspiracy.

William Pepper not only "claimed" this, he proved it to a jury which found for 'CONSPIRACY' --
though the American public has had very little of that from our corporate press!!!



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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-03-09 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
94. In about 30,40 years we might have the power on the left to bring truth forward . . .I hope!!!
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-04-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. TRUTH TO POWER!
look at it this way, this thread already has over 110,000 views from a poster who was tombstoned :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-04-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Yes --
but don't understand the balance of your comments --

Explain if you wish --

And, where do you find out how many "views" a thread has???

If you have a lot of time, please also explain the "archives" to me which I have

no hope of figuring out on my own -- !!!???

:)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
99. THIS is more sleight of hand which should wake up DU'ers re 9/11 . . .as well -- !!!
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
100. The return of Zombie slad!...nt
Sid
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Ha!
She still gets under your thin skin...



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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-06-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #101
102. Nah, I just miss the tears of laughter that she and her posts used to induce...
"back-peddle", and her insistence of being correct, might have been the single funniest thing ever posted in the Dungeon. :rofl:

Sid
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-06-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #102
103. Jesus, that was a hoot!
Rather than simply admit she got it wrong, she made herself look sillier by trying to argue she really meant "back-peddle". I have never seen such tortured "reasoning" in my life.
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-06-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Geez, Sid...
You were easily amused.
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thepeopleunited Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-07-09 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
105. Sirhan Sirhan Hassan Cho.
I'd be very surprised if Hassan was aware of what he was supposedly doing when he supposedly did it, and I'd also be surprised if he actually did it.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
107. Zombie slad rises again...
Edited on Fri Dec-02-11 12:17 PM by SidDithers
too funny when 2 and 3 year old threads get dragged kicking and screaming from the 20th page. :rofl:



IBTL.

Sid
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
108. Where's this thread been? Good to see it back -- a lot of info on this thread -- !!
Edited on Sat Dec-03-11 01:03 AM by defendandprotect
The hard work which many continue to do on it does reach many who want the

answers ---

Think there was also news that a psychiatrist who does deprogramming was permitted

to visit Sirhan and that it did permit Sirhan to begin to remember something of the

events?

Guess I should check the link and see what it actually says --

also heard "bullet" evidence was switched?


Where's this thread been?

Lots of info on the thread that I never got a chance to get back to in '08 -- etc.


Back tomorrow --
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
110. I remember SLAD...

Speaking of the dead can cause them to rise from the grave.
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