Patsies

[noise]

Some suggest the alleged hijackers were patsies. Such a notion implies that they had no criminal intent. Why should we believe this? I would agree that their capability to plan such an attack without detection and pull it off is hard to believe. However, I don't have much difficulty questioning likely motives...ie...anger about US foreign policy in the Middle East or radical religious beliefs.

Is patsy the right description if they had criminal intent?

[tetedur]

1. Another interesting question: Patsies for whom?

If they worked for UBL, and he laughed at them (as in the "fat Osama tape")for not even knowing what they were being sent to do until the last minute, are they not his patsies?

Did they think Allah would be pleased with the death and destruction of 9/11 that enabled George w. Bush to invade and kill innocents in Iraq?

[noise]

2. It's confusing

Tarpley refers to the movie The Package as an example of how false flag operations work. BTW, I refer to Tarpley because many people in the 9/11 truth movement seem to be advocates of his 'synthetic terror' paradigm. In the movie the patsy thinks he is doing something patriotic. He has no idea that he is being setup. There was no criminal intent on his part.

Can the same be said of the al Qaeda operatives? LIHOP theories suggest that the al Qaeda operatives pulled off the attacks though they should have been stopped if government officials had followed standard procedure. Meaning LIHOP=no patsies. Even in MIHOP scenarios it is still possible that the al Qaeda operatives were involved in hijacking airplanes. For example, the possible use of drones doesn't mean the passenger planes were not hijacked.

Some of the al Qaeda operatives were well educated so if they were patsies it becomes necessary to explain how they were duped.

[tetedur]

3. If the "magnificent" 19 are the men the oct says they are,

they worked for UBL and believed they were entirely and religiously justified in their attacks. It's hard for me to believe that these guys were religiously motivated. Why all the trips to strip joints, bars and casinos etc.? A devoted person wouldn't leave their Koran at bar unless they are leaving a bread crumb trail.

Were they hit men in UBL's mafia or is it an international cartel? Daniel Hopsicker's investigation into the goings on in Venice certainly make it sound that way. Did they think they had immunity or protection?

Though some were educated, were they duped and manipulated? Did they think they were secret agents working for a government entity like ISI?

Some members of al-Qaeda are not the sharpest knives in the drawer, i.e. Reid and Moussaoui. Some are murderous psychos.

I will check out "The Package" but I always think of Lee Harvey Oswald, the most famous self-proclaimed patsy of them all, when someone says that word "patsy."

[SDuderstadt]

5. Try these...

http://www.911myths.com/html/strip_clubs.html

http://www.911myths.com/html/atta_and_abramoff.html

[JackRiddler]

6. Try the FBI report (the unredacted parts)

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/news.jsp?oid=140393703-423

also on this board.

[tetedur]

7. You must be referring to the $618.61 spent on pornography and sex toys

in July according to the Sun Trust Bank account activity. That is of course if you can trust the FBI....

[JackRiddler]

8. The party stories don't seem the least implausible to me...

They're very interesting stories, but they wouldn't automatically disprove the official story. I see nothing unusual about men who profess strict Islamist or other fundamentalist faith (or even a willingness to die for a cause) and who simultaneously live a life of drunken parties and visits to hookers - in this country, we refer to the same combination as The Republican Way. The Abramoff casino boat visit is certainly interesting, though. And the fact that the 9/11 Commission ignored all the partying is also interesting.

[Diane_nyc]

13. Thanks, Jack.

Thanks for calling our attention to the page http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/news.jsp?oid=140393703-423">2/14/2008: Newly Released FBI Timeline Reveals New Information about 9/11 Hijackers that Was Ignored by 9/11 Commission on the Cooperative Research site.

ETA: I just now found a thread about this here on DU: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=194923&mesg_id=194923">Important new information about the 9/11 hijackers, posted by Paul Thompson.

[mhatrw]

11. Far more people saw the 19 partying hard at strip clubs and casinos

than saw a plane hit the Pentagon.

Why do you dismiss all these reports? What incentive would all these eyewitnesses have to lie?

[noise]

15. Can you think of a plausible "duped and manipulated" scenario?

I have difficulty understanding how they could fail to be suspicious of being setup. One scenario that might explain it is the prospect of a standard hijacking. The problem is that such a MO doesn't really fit the evidence.

[CGowen]

4. Wasn't OBL referring to the secret government in his first interview (Ummat)? n/t

[Rosa Luxemburg]

9. intent

yes - if hired then they would have intent ie. they wanted to be paid handsomely for it. I think there was money being tranferred to them. If they were involved in the crime then they would be criminals.

[mhatrw]

10. What were they so angry about? Was the CIA not paying them enough

for their blow, gambling and stripper habits or something?

[CJCRANE]

12. I think they may have

had some political motivation but more to the point - they were impressionable young men.

Many young men like the idea of being a "secret agent", of being trained to fight and fire weapons and have a diplomatic immunity to travel around at will.

And the idea of living it up and going out in a blaze of glory is no different to many adolescent fantasies. Look at the homicide-suicide shooter phenomenon.

The so-called "muscle" probably didn't know the full extent of the plan but the pilots may have done and may have liked the idea of going down in history and changing the world.

[MinM]

14. Jerry Lewis as "The Patsy" (1964)

http://www.filmbuffonline.com/ReadingRoom/DayTheClownCriedReview.htm