Has anyone seen this internet short about the plane that hit the Pentagon?

[Sweetpea]

<http://pixla.px.cz/pentagon.swf>

Someone sent it to me tonight and i find it quite disturbing.

[Dookus]

1. The only disturbing thing

is how readily people believe this nonsense.

[praxiz]

2. Well...

It DOES seem strange that the pentagon only has one frickin camera that shows that particular part of the area. And at least SOME other building around there had to have some surveilance too.

Sure would be nice if they could release a video that showed something actually happening (and had the right date on it).

[Dookus]

11. I agree it would be nice

but I'm not terribly surprised that the US Government doesn't release security tapes from the Pentagon. I don't think that's indicative of a grand conspiracy.

[Slit Skirt]

49. really..... they don't mind outing a CIA agent

what's a little tape that shows the "terrorist's" airplane?

[rman]

3. what exactly is nonsense about it?

it's so easy to say it's nonsense without being specific.

[Dookus]

10. What's nonsense

is the idea that internet amateurs have some special expertise in what happens when a plane hits a large concrete building. I hear people constantly talking about the size of the hole, the wreckage, etc.

WHAT expertise do you or others have in this area? Why do you think the plane would be sitting neatly outside the Pentagon for all to see?

What's nonsense is that the videoclip in the original post uses quotes from people to support spurious claims while ignoring the MANY people who personally witnessed the plane entering the Pentagon.

What's nonsense is the idea that because SOMEBODY said the plane hit the ground first, it's gospel truth that must be accommodated.

What's nonsense is the idea that all the passengers on that flight were somehow spirited away by the government and either killed or remain hidden to this day.

What's nonsense is the idea that because the government wants to keep secret some security tapes from the FUCKING PENTAGON that it indicates a massive conspiracy and fraud.

What's nonsense is the belief that even though two passenger planes were flown into the WTC minutes earlier, it's unreasonable to think a third plane was flown into the Pentagon.

What's nonsense is the belief that the US government somehow benefited from this.

[ladjf]

20. Are you saying that anyone who doubts the administration's

explanations of the event is stupid?

"What's nonsense is the idea that because the government wants to keep secret some security tapes from the FUCKING PENTAGON that it indicates a massive conspiracy and fraud."

You are a trusting soul.

[RH]

37. I think of it more in terms

of an astoundlingly ignorant conceit, that anybody from a considerable distance with nothing to judge from except for a pocket full of pixels and some prejudicially selected hearsay should somehow think they know more about an event than those who were present to experience it first hand for themselves.

That's not just about government, terrorism or conspiracy; that's about the sheer insanity of an entire educational culture.

[RH]

34. That's right.

The "anomaly" method is always pretty much the same:

They'll purport with no attmept of any sort to to substantiate themselves that something "should" have been the case.

Then they'll expect us to all to take their assertion at face value, with all the usual straw man arguments, red herrings, irrelevant allusions and ad hominem attacks against anybody not inclined to pay hommage.

Then when they've proceeded to prove that their presumption was wrong they assert instead that the World at large has perpetrated some kind of gross deception.

[RC]

4. Plane crashes leave wreckage.

Where is the plane?
Where are the passenger seats?
Where is all the luggage?
Where are the two 6000 pound engines? You know the engines that are almost 5 feet across - each?
Where is the hole big enough to swallow this passenger liner?

[Dookus]

7. You tell me

what expertise you have in what happens when a plane hits a large concrete building. I'm gonna guess that you, like all the rest of the Pentagon conspiracy nuts, have none whatsoever.

Seriously - tell me what expertise you have that can justify your beliefs that passenger seats and luggage survive such an impact and fire. Tell me what expertise you have to determine what size hole a plane makes when it hits such a building.

Many people SAW the plane hit the Pentagon. Just prior to that, two passenger planes were flown into the World Trade Center. This flight was ALSO reported hijacked. It is not unreasonable to believe that it was flown into the Pentagon.

[RC]

12. I read

I read a lot. When you read enough on any one subject, it starts to becomes apparent that some information fits better than others. Like pieces of a puzzle.
Then there is all that pesky physics involved. You know, things involving mass, momentum, Cause and effect. An example being little projectiles make little holes, big projectiles make big holes.
It is kinda hard to make 100 tons disappear without taking a good chunk of the building it hit with it.

[Dookus]

14. well

it DID take a chunk of building with it. But you DO realize, don't you, that a plane has very low density, right? It's aluminum and air. When it hits a very DENSE building, like the Pentagon, it may do things you might not expect.

That's why "common" sense and amateur engineering aren't terribly useful in determining what really happens.

I remember being on the phone with my brother on 9/11 and saying that the towers would stand. As I said that, the first tower fell. I was shocked. It violated my common sense and my amateur knowledge of engineering. Turns out my expertise was seriously lacking.

[ladjf]

21. Dookus - Your question about the poster's expertise is the

number one classic argument now used by the administration when they attack anyone who is skeptical about news reports. Of course the poster isn't an expert on airplane impacts into concrete buildings.
But, on the other hand, what is your expertise that would allow you to label the poster as another "conspiracy nut"?

There are indeed some very puzzling circumstances surrounding the Pentagon hit as well as the Trade Center collapses. I'm not going to take the time here to list them as that has already been done. But, one thing seems obvious, the Administration has been less than forthcoming about what really happened on 9-11. Why would they be secretive if they had nothing to hide?

[Bolo Boffin]

29. Now used by the administration?

I wasn't aware that the administration was fielding questions from conspiracy theorists.

[ladjf]

30. I should have said surrogates or defenders of the Administration.

[RH]

39. I don't know of any surrogates.

Poeple I know who spent a lot of time on this sort of thing were not at all put in place by anybody, hardly even by themselves, for better or for worse.

Or do you perhaps have some sort of evidence to the contrary?

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RH]

35. Who supposes thaty have nothing to hide.

Governments employ secret services.

Why?

Maybe because, on the whole, the prevention of another attack is preferrable to showing the next attacker where the weakness was.

Lets look forward, anyway, to the day when all those who post here see fit to reveal their true particulars alongside their bank account details. That'll be fun, wont it?

[Endangered Specie]

18. Like Dookus said, do you have any credentials on this subject?

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Where is the plane? - In lots of itty bitty pieces
Where are the passenger seats? - Most likely cooked and blown to bits
Where is all the luggage? - Burned to bits no doubt
Where are the two 6000 pound engines? - one of them punched a 12 foot hole in the building
Where is the hole big enough to swallow this passenger liner? - Its there

My questions for you
If it wasnt flight 77... Where is the plane? and its several dozen passengers? What about the calls they made? The eyewitnesses that said they saw a plane?

[tngledwebb]

31. Do YOU ?

Send photos of plane when you find them.

[alphafemale]

5. It was a plane. People died on the plane and the building.

I have no desire or need to see the close up of terrified faces of people staring from the airplane windows - or hear recordings of their final, frantic goodbyes from cellphones to prove this to me.

Please leave this be.

[rman]

6. non of that is in this clip

No close up of terrified faces of people staring from the airplane windows, nor recordings of their final, frantic goodbyes from cellphones.

It just shows that when the plane hit the ground in front of the Pentagon, it did not damage the lawn. It just shows that there's virtually no wreckage. It just shows that during that crash something punched a 2 meter hole through several of the rings that make up the Pentagon. It just shows that eye witness accounts about the incident are contradictory.

There are so many unanswered questions about it that it would be irresponsible to just "leave it be".

[alphafemale]

8. The plane and all passengers were beamed up by aliens...?

By orders of Cheney?

Is that it?

How silly of me to not see this 'til now.

[Endangered Specie]

19. Interestingly enough, just because THEY show no

pictures of airplane wreckage DOESNT mean there aren't any. Duh.


" It just shows that during that crash something punched a 2 meter hole through several of the rings that make up the Pentagon. " -one of the engines. ANd how do you know it was 2 meters einstein?

"It just shows that eye witness accounts about the incident are contradictory." - That tends to happen, just look at the Titanic, but most eyewitnesses claim seeing a decent sized plane, all convienently left out.

[impe]

24. Oh Please!!

Spare me this tripe.

The government didn't spare you the visuals of people dying in NY did they. People on fire, jumping
from buildings to escape the horrible inferno inside.

What in the world are you talking about you don't need to see it. IF this did indeed happen, this
would have been splashed across your TV like the images of the WTC's. Common sense would ask
WHY DIDN'T THEY DO THIS FOR THE PENTAGON. WHY DO THEY NEED TO CENSOR VIDEO'S. WHAT
REALLY HAPPENED.

WAKE UP LADY!

[FloridaPat]

9. Half baked ideas. THere are other pictures on the internet

that show the wings and tail impressions before the building collapsed. The plane came in around 300 mph. It went through 4 of the rings. There was a small hole coming out of the 4th ring. There was also a security camera that supposidly caught the plane coming in. It was relased by the government but obviously altered. So most of this film is bad reporting.

However, they really never did find parts of the plane. But they did find enough DNA from bodies to determine there were no Arabs aboard. Never figured out that one.

And one last item - that plane did a perfect landing right into the first floor of that building at 300 mph and didn't even bend a blade of grass on the way in. That was not a landing by a simulator jocky.

[freetobegay]

13. Oh God another kool-aid thread!

[Q]

15. Conspiracy theories are the natural evolution...

...of government secrecy. Questions always arise when a government hides things from the people that common sense dictates don't have to be hidden. In this case the government simply wants you to believe that they 'hate us for our freedom' and expects you not to ask any questions beyond that.

- A secretive government knows they can get away with this because we're a culture programmed not to believe in 'conspiracy theories'. We laugh at them because we know they couldn't possibly be true or because they 'sound weird'. We know the government would never lie or allow their own people to be harmed to gain some kind of political advantage.

- The Bushies have nothing to worry about. The American people have been dumbed down to the point where they'll accept most anything their government tells them. That's what a 'good' and patriotic citizen always does.

[hippywife]

16. True, true.

I don't know if I'm ready to buy into this one yet but there are some questions that bear asking.

We have seen video of the planes slicing into the towers ad nauseum. Over and over and over again. I haven't seen any showing the plane that crashed into the Pentagon which is probably the most secure building in the country. Did I just miss seeing it all this time? Has anyone seen it? Much of the documentation of the towers was in the hands of multiple journalists. Would the FBI risk going after these sources for their film had they been on hand to document the Pentagon as they were for the towers? If they had, would the news media have begun asking many of the questions they should have been asking all along?

Who would benefit? While the attack on the towers, the world icon of capitalism, was horrific enough, wouldn't an attack on our very seat of democracy be even more of a rallying cry for the country? We don't know for sure where the flight that was downed in Shanksville was heading with any certainty. Wouldn't it be so much easier to make people believe that our lawmakers were a target or even the pResident in order to gain sympathy for his causus belli, support for inane legislation such as the Patriot Act?

I dunno. Do any of us? There isn't one person here who either supports or derides this particular theory that can say one way or the other.

[Ronin1]

17. See Pentagon Study - Purdue University,

The Link below,with video, answers any questions.
The immediate motivation for the project was to understand the behavior of the building under the impact.



http://www.cs.purdue.edu/cgvlab/projects/popescu/pentagonVis.htm

[Dr Strangelove]

22. Plane Crashes Leave Wreckage

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/pictures.htm

Look through some of these photos and compare the wreckage, there is literally NO sign of plane wreckage at the pentagon.

Also there was video confiscated from a gas station security camera that should have shown it, whats the harm in releasing that? Would it compromise security? No!

Now look at the video of the "plane" hitting the pentagon. Notice the fire ball is white before it turns orange. When fuel explodes it is orange, when explosives explode they are white.

I like this one.
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w921004.htm
Look at the damage a plane does to an apartment building, pretty big hole, eh?

PS, What makes YOU an expert?

[Endangered Specie]

26. Same question could be asked of you.

[impe]

27. Excellent Points

9/11 was the biggest security failure in the history of this country and yet, people buy the gov's argument
in the interest of national security for confiscating the video's...

What are they afraid of, other terrorists might get some ideas on how to attack the pentagon.
Yes that's it, because the terrorists might smart up while doing the 360 maneuver and decide to to strike the Center of the open structure rather than a side wall with layers of concrete support.

[RH]

41. Who ever said that

any video was confiscated because of national security?

I was never convinced that the Pentagon was deliberately targetted by anybody.

Because of what do you repeat the official version so mindlessly?

Do you have any actual evidence to the effect that the Pentagon was a target?

[impe]

48. Please tell me on what basis

the FBI confiscated tapes that belonged to private businesses in Arlington? Why was the protocol different
in VA versus NY? If a plane hit the pentagon, why would sequestering the tapes "aid" in the investigation
of a plane hitting a building?

I have a rather simple mind and like to ask why all the time.

[RH]

51. Police investigators gather evidence.

The same happens anywhere and it would only happen, of course, if the police know that any evidence exists, which is usually when the owners volunteers the information.

It once took me nearly a year to recover a photographic film that I'd offered to a burglary investigation. Rules apply. Officers have to jump through hoops the same as anybody else if they want to get anywhere. They don't, or at aleast they're not supposed to reveal anything according this or that whim or casual demand.

Perhaps you would therefore be pleased to explain what right the FBI would have to "release" a video that belongs to a private business. The usual copyright laws would presumably apply.

[WoodrowFan]

28. but then

you have to ignore all the witnesses that SAW the plane hit./


and there most certainly WAS wreckage.

ah, why bother. like arguing with creationists.

bye bye.

[RH]

32. There was wreckage.

The aupopsy identified Flight 77 passengers.

Apartment building windows are not 40mm. thick.

When aluminum explodes the effect tends to be white. They put it in fireworks.

[LARED]

36. BLEVE

Notice the fire ball is white before it turns orange. When fuel explodes it is orange, when explosives explode they are white.

I've heard this many times. Is it true?

See here


http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/video/truckfire.htm

[MercutioATC]

38. Like wheels and pieces of fuselage and gear struts and engine parts?

Yeah, they do. All of those were photographed at the Pentagon and all are consistent with a commercial plane.

If a commercial jet didn't crash into the Pentagon, where did that debris come from??

[RH]

40. You should have got the hang of it by now.

Evidence that doesn't happen suit the theory, if it can't be ignored it was planted.

You can't trust any "official" document because it was official.

Anybody who disagress must be a paid disiformation agent Bushco apologist.

All eye witness reports are unreliable, especially if every one of them fails to concur with a pet theory and not one of them positively supports it.

Praise be to Allah. They've proving Osama was right. America is sick, very very sick.

[MercutioATC]

43. Yeah, I know...

But I've gotta keep trying. As an ATC (and, by extension, as a federal employee) I know firsthand how broken the system is. Knowing what I know, I sincerely believe that 9/11 transpired as it did because of two things; the incompetence and misjudgments of this administration and the way the system works. I wish everybody had the benefit of working for the government. Unless you've experienced it, it's difficult to describe.

[RH]

52. I know 'cause I've dealt with "government".

When they talk about "the government" I never know who or what the hell they think they're on about anyway. Do they also believe in Santa Claus? A government with one mind, one heart, one purpose and one method? If only. It may be the sort of thing that Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld would dream of. The reality is another matter. In the mean time they're far too busy with getting the better of each other, just like the CT crowd.

Government works because of corruption, not despite it. If every rule and order were folowed to the letter nobody would ever get anywhere. You only get on by finding the right person to charm, the right sort of club to join. Fill in a form and you're straight to the back of the line. For better or for worse that's how it is and always was, anywhere. C'est la vie.

[Sweetpea]

23. Is there any way to demand footage release from the govt if they

are holding the video footage from various places?

[Endangered Specie]

25. And because it was found on the internet, it MUST be true!

Any video that needs to add "hip" music and a fancy MPAA ripoff makes me instantaneously suspicious. Less filler and some fact would be nice, the video is at best wild speculation.

[RH]

33. Only in America is that sort of stuff taken so seriously.

On the other side of the Atlantic the sound track alone would disqualify it, from the start.

[Sweetpea]

42. LOL

[RH]

53. ... and not only

would the sound track disqualify it in terms of credibility; there'd be a big hoo ha as to it being inappropriate to the seriosuness of the event.

It is really sickening at times, the way they pick through the bones of the dead for something more tasty to chew.

[MrSammo1]

44. You should!

It's obvious that 9/11 is one big lie......from start to finish!

Did you watch the added scenes on the video? If the internet site video bothers you, the DVD will blow you away!

[MercutioATC]

46. If tripe like this video is your sole source of information, you're right.

...it probably IS "obvious" to you. I'd suggest you take a look at some of the actual evidence (you know, the stuff videos like these like to avoid).

[Endangered Specie]

47. Oh come on, you know how CTers are with FACTS...

Creationists hate facts, UFO believers hate facts, Kennedy conspiricsts hate facts, holocaust deniers REALLY hate facts, who else... well, you know, the list goes on.


"Just the facts ma'am, just the facts"

[MrSammo1]

50. I have

I see nothing of a 757!

http://renovation.pentagon.mil/Phoenix/9-11-2001/Page.html