International ANSWER... I know, I know the question is asked

[nadinbrzezinski]

from time to time but we need to ask it again... where did they come from?

Some have seen through their racism

Others through their bona fides as agents provocatours

So they were ready to roll three days AFTER 9.11

So lets make some assumptions, shall we? And some of them will require the tin foil

9.11 was an inside job, or they let it happen. In my view just as bad.

Now go back to the 1960s. In the begining there was no oposition to the war, but when it finally came to fruition it was POWERFUL and quite impossible
to ignore, yet these guys appeared fully formed THREE DAYS after 9.11

If I were the BFEE... and I wanted to coopt the innevitable peace movement... wouldn't you think that ANSWER fits the bill? And I am not talking of the foot soldiers... they are in the words of Lenin useful idiots, and quite frankly Straussians don't have a better view of them

But who benefits? Many of us will NOT participate in any march organized or dintantly influenced by ANSWER, in effect keeping us where we are... though I need to check to see if there is a vigil tonight NOT organized or influenced by ANSWER and if there is, guess where I will be tonight.

What is more, we are told, organize something instead of complaining.

MoveOn has...

So have other groups.

Yet, and this might be impression, these guys seem to have an easier time getting all the permits together when all is said and done, and they ALWAYS coopt the marchers into at times their very racist agenda, and even keep out people who have been at it far longer than any of these guys have

So... yes I will say it... I susepct they are a tool of the BFEE, in order to coopt and subvert the peace movement. After all free mumia does not play well in Peoria.

[annabanana]

1. They tingle MY tinfoil as well . . . .

hunches are not always bad things...

[TheConstantGardener]

2. Um, conspiracy theory land is THAT way ---->

They're a bunch of people lead by Ramsey Clark and his international action center which has been around since Gulf War I, not an FBI plant. lol.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. And they were ready to go three days after 9.11

yeah right...

With posters, material and the rest of the crap, some of it rather expensive to produce

(Color offset printing IS expensive and most importantly TAKES TIME)

So are you one of their useful idiots? You seem quite adamnat at defending all they do

[TheConstantGardener]

4. They already had the International Action Center behind them

As someone who has worked with federal,state law enforcement I have to say this is getting into moonbat territory as far as conspiracy theory. They are not government plants. LOL.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Again they were ready to go

with copy three days after the attacks?

What they have their own offset printing plants ready to do this kind of a rush job? What is more, all over the US?

By the way, thanks for the moonbat comment... once again, are YOU a member of ANSWER... or worst you just gave yourself away, since... drum roll, the moonbat comment is used by the RIGHT WING, in fact, extreme elements in the Right Wing

A simple yes or no will work insofar as your membership is concerned.

[TheConstantGardener]

6. Um International Action Center can move FAST

Or are you not familiar with Ramsey Clark?

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. I am familiar with Mr Clark

and his history, but alas I am also familiar with Publishing and the realities of it, since I do produce copy for a living

So I guess the bullshit will contnue

Once again, are you a member of ANSWER? A simple yes or no will suffice

[TheConstantGardener]

8. So you can prove the FBI funneled money to them?

Or are they just a convenient target you decide to make theories about?

Oh it happened quickly so it must be the government!

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Given the environment of 9.11

it is just suspicious

What is more, not that you get this... yuo think the FBI did not infiltrate the Peace Movement in the 1960s?

And if you are going to do what these gguys were planning to do, don't you think they will try to coopt the movement from the begining?

I am sorry, if in your reality government corruption of a movement is not even a posibilty

And I am not saying what I suspect they are, but at the very least they are good Agent Provocatours who are KEEPING people away FROM THEIR RALLIES

Either way, who benefits?

And once again ARE YOU A MEMBER OF INTERNATIONAL A.N.S.W.E.R AND IF NOT WHY ARE YOU DODGING THE DAMN QUESTION

[ima_sinnic]

89. what is a "member" of ANSWER? I am on their mailing list, am I a "member"?

[Scurrilous]

10. "Are You Now, Or Have You Ever Been...

...A Member of ANSWER?"

LOL




ANSWER Raaaaaaawks!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. You may laugh

but it is a valid question

If I defend a group I am willing to say what my affiliation to them is.

it is simple

[MadHound]

21. LOL, for one who has worked in publishing, you are horribly misinformed as to the time it takes

To go from pre-press to finished product. I used to work in graphic arts and printing both, on everything from small AB Dicks to large Heidelbergs, and I can guarantee you, even though I've been out of the biz for years now, I have enough contacts, and my trusty Mac computer here, that I could crank out ten thousand posters within twelve hours, and tommorrow is Sunday even, meaning a lot of presses are shut down.

It isn't that hard to pull off as you're making it seem. Any decent graphic artist can make a master within an hour, then all it takes is burning the plates and letting the press roll:shrug: Probably the longest part will be letting the posters dry, otherwise you'll wind up with smeared posters.

If I can do this, provided I have the money, I'm sure that the folks at ANSWER and IAC could do so also. All it really takes is money, contacts and the neccessary skill.

I personally don't care one way or the other about ANSWER. I disagree with some of their positions, I agree with some of their stands. I haven't seen this racism that people are claiming, but I've only been to a couple of their rallies early on in the war. But they are one of the few, and arguably the most organized and largest groups out there putting together massive nation wide peace rallies. War makes for strange bedfellows, and that appears to be the case with ANSWER. If you don't like their organization, start your own. And if you need somebody with ink in their blood and the requisite skills to put things together from pre to post press, you know where to look:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. ok

stand corrected on that issue.

I still smell a rat

And I have personally seen their racism

Perhaps you had to be there

[TheConstantGardener]

40. Did they also assassinate JFK?

I want to know what other conspiracies are at work here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. CONTRIELPRO

google it, you may even learn something

and since you refuse to answer if you are a mmeber of answer I am going to assume from now on that you are

[Octafish]

82. CIA was well-represented at RFK assassination.

Odd how quickly that dropped off the radar.

Did the CIA Kill Bobby Kennedy?

In 1968, Robert Kennedy seemed likely to follow his brother, John, into the White House. Then, on June 6, he was assassinated - apparently by a lone gunman. But Shane O'Sullivan says he has evidence implicating three CIA agents in the murder

Monday November 20, 2006
The Guardian

At first, it seems an open-and-shut case. On June 5 1968, Robert Kennedy wins the California Democratic primary and is set to challenge Richard Nixon for the White House. After midnight, he finishes his victory speech at the Ambassador hotel in Los Angeles and is shaking hands with kitchen staff in a crowded pantry when 24-year-old Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan steps down from a tray-stacker with a "sick, villainous smile" on his face and starts firing at Kennedy with an eight-shot revolver.

As Kennedy lies dying on the pantry floor, Sirhan is arrested as the lone assassin. He carries the motive in his shirt-pocket (a clipping about Kennedy's plans to sell bombers to Israel) and notebooks at his house seem to incriminate him. But the autopsy report suggests Sirhan could not have fired the shots that killed Kennedy. Witnesses place Sirhan's gun several feet in front of Kennedy, but the fatal bullet is fired from one inch behind. And more bullet-holes are found in the pantry than Sirhan's gun can hold, suggesting a second gunman is involved. Sirhan's notebooks show a bizarre series of "automatic writing" - "RFK must die RFK must be killed - Robert F Kennedy must be assassinated before 5 June 68" - and even under hypnosis, he has never been able to remember shooting Kennedy. He recalls "being led into a dark place by a girl who wanted coffee", then being choked by an angry mob. Defence psychiatrists conclude he was in a trance at the time of the shooting and leading psychiatrists suggest he may have be a hypnotically programmed assassin.

Three years ago, I started writing a screenplay about the assassination of Robert Kennedy, caught up in a strange tale of second guns and "Manchurian candidates" (as the movie termed brainwashed assassins). As I researched the case, I uncovered new video and photographic evidence suggesting that three senior CIA operatives were behind the killing. I did not buy the official ending that Sirhan acted alone, and started dipping into the nether-world of "assassination research", crossing paths with David Sanchez Morales, a fearsome Yaqui Indian.

Morales was a legendary figure in CIA covert operations. According to close associate Tom Clines, if you saw Morales walking down the street in a Latin American capital, you knew a coup was about to happen. When the subject of the Kennedys came up in a late-night session with friends in 1973, Morales launched into a tirade that finished: "I was in Dallas when we got the son of a bitch and I was in Los Angeles when we got the little bastard." From this line grew my odyssey into the spook world of the 60s and the secrets behind the death of Bobby Kennedy.

Working from a Cuban photograph of Morales from 1959, I viewed news coverage of the assassination to see if I could spot the man the Cubans called El Gordo - The Fat One. Fifteen minutes in, there he was, standing at the back of the ballroom, in the moments between the end of Kennedy's speech and the shooting. Thirty minutes later, there he was again, casually floating around the darkened ballroom while an associate with a pencil moustache took notes.

The source of early research on Morales was Bradley Ayers, a retired US army captain who had been seconded to JM-Wave, the CIA's Miami base in 1963, to work closely with chief of operations Morales on training Cuban exiles to run sabotage raids on Castro. I tracked Ayers down to a small town in Wisconsin and emailed him stills of Morales and another guy I found suspicious - a man who is pictured entering the ballroom from the direction of the pantry moments after the shooting, clutching a small container to his body, and being waved towards an exit by a Latin associate.

Ayers' response was instant. He was 95% sure that the first figure was Morales and equally sure that the other man was Gordon Campbell, who worked alongside Morales at JM-Wave in 1963 and was Ayers' case officer shortly before the JFK assassination.

CONTINUED...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1952379,00.html

More people would know about this,



were it not for Corporate McPravda,
a division of the BFEE.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. WOW, now we are in creepy territory

but we both know that

[Octafish]

84. Yuppers.

Sorry about the edit. My bad.

The subject is so full of disinformation, I posted the wrong article.

They are not all the same. Nor are two people, except friends.

[deutsey]

41. I don't like ANSWER , but

I believe the IAC (its predecessor) was planning a massive protest in DC in late September (months before 911).

Now, of course, that all could be part of the BFEE master plan (I wouldn't put anything past them), but ANSWER were ready to go so quickly after 911 due largely to the fact that they (as the IAC) were ready to go prior to 911.

PS: I prefer the UFPJ coalition.

[KG]

12. how is ANSWER coopting the peace movement?

you know, other than staging massive peace marches?

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Locally they took over the demnstrations

and shut out people...

Also they are now giving a quite different image from the begining.

But hey, to each its own

The fact they were ready to go that fast after 9.11 raises all kinds of issues

[KG]

14. that's it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Ok let me try to explain this to you

they are present, many of us will not go, period

So who benefits?

[KG]

16. no need to explain anything to me. go or don't go, i don't give a fuck.

but hundred of thousands others, including me, are showing up, so you won't be missed.

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. You could potentially increase the contingent by another

200,000, but what would I know

By the way I will be at the Moveon vigil on Moday... and will continue my work

[KG]

19. well, good for you.

[ret5hd]

25. They took over the demonstrations...or they organized the demonstrations...

in the first place.

Every time i've looked at ANSWER taking over demonstrations, it turns out they were the ones that organized the damned thing . If people are upset about that, then organize your own.

edit:typo

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. No they took over it

period, that is what happened here...

They were happening before they showed up

And they usually concentrated on one perhaps to related issues, once ANSWER showed up... it was all over the map

And as I said, being a Jew they made me feel unwelcomed... so I don't go to ANYTHING they organize, period

Even if it was a silent candle light vigil.

And yes, my lack of trust for them is deep now

[piesRsquare]

34. Nice to see I'm not alone...

I don't go to anything organized by ANSWER, either (for the same reasons), which means that I have stayed home during many anti-war rallies that I would have otherwise attended (including one tomorrow here in SF).

One thing the Left is good at, most definitely, is alienating its own allies. It's frustrating.

[ret5hd]

38. So, who applied for the permits, arranged for facilities, etc...

Who set the agenda and timeline? If it wasn't ANSWER, as you state, then who was it? After that question is answered, then why didn't THOSE groups stop ANSWER from taking over? If ANSWER can stop others from participating in a protest organized by ANSWER, then any group can stop ANSWER from destroying a protest that they organize. They don't come in with bats and force others to let them on stage.

Or is the reality that some other groups were TALKING about a protest, and ANSWER came in and did the actual WORK, like permits, facilities, publicity, public address systems, etc etc etc.

Because if thats the case, then it is an ANSWER protest.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. It was ugly as I understand it

one march, got so ugly that after that some of the local groups do not have anything to do with them, THey had done a lot of the legwork and were pushed out by ANSWER

It is so bad that many of them (at leadership levels) no longer participate in any marches, organized by anybody, others do as I do... and no I was a leader, but in the beginning of this war I was very involved, so I got to hear the scuttle, and it was not pretty

[ret5hd]

52. Didn't really answer any questions...

If ANSWER is showing up uninvited at OTHERS protests, how are they getting the stage? Who's in charge? If everything is so lax that anyone from the crowd can get up and monopolize the mic's for an hour or two or more, well i guess i'll try it next time and see what happens. Be on the lookout for a guy hoggin' the mic talking about how everyone should donate some money to make a house payment, cause that'll be me. And do you know whose fault it will be if i succeed? The organizers of the event! Sure, I'm the asshole, but they let me get by with it.

If ANSWER is in the business of strongarming event organizers, why haven't they done it to Cindy Sheehan? Why didn't they do it at the event i helped organize a few years ago (besides the fact i'm a loser and they never even heard of the event)? Because they don't. They might be assholes, boring, COINTELPRO, opportunistic, pushy to the point of being a bully...but if you let yourself be bullied it is still your fault.

on edit: and if you let them bully you into letting them organize the event, then it becomes an ANSWER protest, and from that point on you are at their party, not them at yours.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. If you say so

as I said they took over... they pushed the local organizations out... and many of the local organziations now don't play along, others do, still others organize events on separate dates and people don't talk to each other.

If you think that is good. you are entitled to your opinion, certainly

;-)

to me that is BAD... again my opinion

And to this day I see ANSWER on the organizers lists, I stay home and others do as well

Again, if you think that is good... well you know about opinions

;-)

[ret5hd]

54. No I don't think it is good...

I don't think you quite understand what i am getting at...i am not saying i agree with anything about ANSWER.

(my wife is sitting here telling me to be nice, so ;-) )

what i am saying is to keep charge of an event, you get permits (well, i've always said i don't need no stinking permit, but...), arrange facilites (bandstands, PA systems, porta-potties, etc). When you keep control of that, you have control of the event. When someone else does that, well, then it is THEIR event.

The problem is (from our POV), ANSWER nationwide arranges things on a particular date. And makes all these arrangements on a particular date. Now, someone like us plebes comes in and thinks we are organizing some local event that is happening on the same day as other local events around the country. Well, it's not. Permits have already been applied for, etc.

One way around it is for someone (who? me? you? that guy over there?) to contact people from Washington, Dallas, San Fran, Houston, Miami, Las Angeles, Portland, Des Moines, etc etc etc etc and etc, and get each of those people to go and apply for permits on a particular day, get fliers and posters printed up and distributed around the country, and all the hellatious bits of logistics and publicity that are needed to pull off a nationwide event like that and see what happens.

Or, local planners can allow themselves to be bullied by those who (lets face bare facts) aren't exactly Hells Angels with guns and chains.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Ok let me explain this slowly

the locals had arranged for all of this, permits, all of it, and were elbowed, forced out by ANSWER it has left a very divided community, at least for the few who know the skinny

So when I am told by others that ANSWER went ahead and hijacked events, given local experience, I tend to believe them

As to letting themselves be bullied, well in my view ANSWER should not have done that PERIOD... and they can be rather thuggish. From the outside they don't seem to be, but they are.

Oh and say hi to the wife

[ret5hd]

56. Well, all i can do is offer my help...

Next time your group is organizing something like that give me amessage here. I can generally get to any major city in the country with enough lead-time. The earlier in the year the better, because i tend to have vacation time left.

What i offer is a big block looking head with a loud firm voice that is not afraid to tell people to shut the f*** up and get the hell out and don't bother comin' back in the back door brother!!! . I'm not a badass or a fighter (too old and smoked too many years) but i am still not easily intimidated and can generally get loud and indignant enough to run a jerk out of the room pretty damn quick. After all, if i can be pushed around by ANSWER, what chance do I got against GOPers?

All i ask is a decent hotel room and a beer or two.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. I am not the one organizing

and these days my participation is limited to moveon vigils

And of course pestering my local congress criter, REGULARLY

But thank you anyway

And yes them personally making me feel unwelcomed because I happen to be Jewish... also quite soured me

[Selatius]

18. Well, unless there is evidence of money being paid to ANSWER from PNAC/BFEE, I don't see it.

If there is evidence that these guys are on somebody's payroll, I'd be more interested in hearing it. In any other case, I generally think ANSWER protests generally muddle the entire anti-war movement by injecting unrelated issues into ending the war. You have groups calling for the ending of logging in the Pacific Northwest, pro-choice rights advocates, groups calling for an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, etc. at an event with the primary purpose of ending the war? It confuses people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. If there is money you will not find out

about it until after this is well over.

Given how the FBI operated in the 1960s there is also a chance they don't know they are getting the money from the government.

But we will NOT know the answer, no pun intended, until well after this is over

It took what Congressional Hearings to learn of the FBIs roll in the United States in the 1960s, and we both know it

But the first step is to ask the question

[Selatius]

22. It's fine to ask the question, but if there is no known evidence, then we are still at square one.

The fact that they were "ready to roll" three days after 9/11 is curious, but alone, it is insufficient beyond circumstantial evidence "to indict," as they say.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. I'm not indicting them

Just suspicious of them, and their methods

and when this is over, I do hope a graduate history student digs into the facts and finds out

[Selatius]

31. I generally don't get along so well with some of the communist elements

I don't really agree with the Workers World Party, but that's more because I have fundamental ideological disagreements in terms of libertarian socialism v. more statist forms of socialism. While I do admire their activism in the streets; I see young Marxists as one of the most consistent with respect to showing up to anti-war events, I generally diverge from their views and thus usually am considered as of the anarchist column.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. I have to say it, the young marxists reminded me a tad

of my youth...

True story, private school our sociology teacher was a member of the Communist party and quite the marxist... trying to convert a bunch of upper class kids, who ARE the perfect target.

[rosesaylavee]

27. I have heard reference to their racism

before but have had read no actual report of what they have done. Can you give me a 'for instance'?

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. They kept Rabi Lerner off the stage in San Fran

before the war started because he was a Zionist, if you know who Rabbi Lerner is, yuo'll get the joke

On a more personal level, locally I was confronted because I am a Jew.

[rosesaylavee]

39. Did a quick google on Lerner

and I find that to be an odd thing for them to call him that as his views appear to be very progressive and not exactly 'pro-Israeli'. I have read your other posts on DU over the years and have found you to be a thoughtful person. And if your experience has been as you say it has been, I believe you.

I will look again at the ANSWER activities with a more critical eye from here on out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Oh he is pro israeli as in the israelis have a right to

exist side by side the Palestinians in peace and prosperity. He was one of the few Americans involved in the whole OSLO talks.

He IS an incredible person, for peace and justice, and has called the Likudniks and even AIPAC on their BS for years.

I have read Tikkun from time time, and I highly recommend it as well... since that magazine is more than just a step in the right direction

As to why they kept him out... well accoring to Bernie Ward, who broke the story, they kept him out on the gruonds that he is a zionist. Aparently belieiving in the two state solution is anathema to them

[Beam Me Up]

28. The best way to thwart a revolution is to lead it.

I'm suspicious of ANSWER but then I'm suspicious of just about everyone. I think you're asking the right questions and, yes, they have been asked before.

[annabanana]

29. And they will continue to be asked as long as they muddy

the water and hog the camera..

[Greeby]

30. Maybe a simpler explanation: They are goddamn clueless!

Just a thought :shrug:

[Scurrilous]

32. "I know, I know the question is asked.."

nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Sun Sep-25-05 02:15 PM
Original message

International A.N.S.W.E.R and CONTIELPRO

Ok ok any of the real old hands know what CONTRIEPLRO is, and if you do not, wikipedia and google are your friends.

Here is a thought that just occurred to me... the peace movement has been growing. Hell they were massive demos before the war... but I cannot shake one memory, on September 20th, 2001 a young man came to the book store in Hawaii and put this well done poster, very well done poster, from INTERNATIONAL A.N.S.W.E.R. Now I am a publisher so I know how expensive it it so print in color and to print good quality stock.
Those posters were not cheap to produce.

Well well, after seeing how the peace movement is basically getting diluted in its message by these clowns, who are ALL but inclusive... it occurred to me... could INTERNATIONAL A.N.S.W.E.R be the equivalent of the modern CONTRIELPRO? Think about it folks, they were ready to go from the gate. No I am not saying that all of them are... but what if there are some and their initial funding did NOT come from donations? I can tell you I sincerely doubt it did. Those posters were the kind that you think about producing for a major event in the gaming industry, if you happen to have the money. They were not cheap computer knockouts, they were not cheap...

Now what has International A.N.S.W.E.R so far managed to do?

1.- Dilute the message

2.- Keep people home, those who know what they have done will not go

3.- Sorry but Free MUMIA does not belong in a peace march, nor the antisemitic crap they espouse

The messages they espouse seem clearly designed to keep middle America out... The message at this point should be laser focused on the war... and the war alone and brining the troops home. The nuances, and they do exist, of why we went to war belong in teach in, not in a major march. A major march is not a teachable moment.

Oh and yes these questions are apropriate and NEED asking, everybody has an agenda, what is theirs?

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. I know I have asked this before

and we had a very non definite answer back then as well

I hope a history studens ferrets out the truth, whatever it may be, after the nightmare is over

[AndyTiedye]

36. In What Way Is ANSWER Racist?

Is supporting the Palestinians racist?

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Assuming that being Jewish means you are automatically

zionist

I guess you'd have to be there.

Been there, done that

)Oh and here is the huge clue, jew does not automatically mean zionist but I am sure you knew that)

[TheConstantGardener]

44. That's why they have jews with them all the time?

Great logic. NOT.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Yep, like Rabi Lernir right?

[TheConstantGardener]

47. You have an agenda against ANSWER

Your OWN conspiracy I think. And it includes anti-palestinian bias I'm thinking.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Yep that is why I support the work that Rabbi Lerner

has been doing for years and a friend of mine happens to be Palestinian and we talk the issues and how to reach across for most folks

You have no clue what I have done in my life, or who I have worked for...


As to International ANSWER you are a member, aren't you?

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. I am a member of the ACLU and a card carrying one at that

but if you are going to defend an organization this vehemently, don't be surprised if this is assumed

Thanks for the reminder I need to pay up for the year.

will be RIGHT BACK.

[Unvanguard]

57. Um, Rabbi Michael Lerner IS a Zionist. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. That will come as news to him

[Moochy]

60. Rabbi Michael Lerner & Zionism

I've liked reading Lerner's perspective over the years:

http://www.tikkun.org

to a poster on his website:

Anti-Zionists
David ben Yaacov asks:

Don't you think you and this magazine are made up of traitorous Anti-Zionists. Am I wrong or are you in league with the Christian and Islamic heretics? The left and right wing radical nutjobs? You cannot honestly believe in that the anti-Israeli liars and opponents are not anti-Jewish? Are you and the writers of this magazine sick in the head? The Arabs (I will NEVER acknowledge the fiction of this "Palestine" created by Roman oppressors who disappeared from history. The non-Israeli Arabs are living in a culture of death, how the hell can you negotiate with fanatics bent on our destruction?

< snip >

Rabbi Lerner responds

Every day I pray that you and people who share your perspective will someday come to realize that those of us who believe that Israel’s best interests for survival and peace lies with an open-hearted reconciliation with the Palestinian people are actually as much concerned about serving God, Judaism and the Jewish people as you. I hope that you’ll read my book Healing Israel/Palestine to see how one can understand the facts differently than you do. Meanwhile, I pray that your fervent energy will be directed toward building more love between and among peoples so that God’s house can become a house of prayer for all peoples!

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. He believes in a two state solution

if that is zionist for you, oh well caught, I am too them


Israel will not disapear from the map... not in the naer future

I know that is a fantasy many live for.

[Unvanguard]

62. Um, yeah, a two-state solution IS Zionist.

Indeed, most Zionists support it.

Do you know what the term means?

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Yep I do

and I can tell you that if you are thinking of the definition way back then... and today... it is not the same

IN fact, two staters are highly disliked by some in Israeli politics, but I am sure you knew that too


So we don't leave the Palestinians out of it, they are also highly disliked by the Palestinian Radicals... and in fact both have received death threats, but I am sure you knew that too

[Unvanguard]

66. No, the term means pretty much the same thing

except that perhaps in an earlier usage it was less explicit about the Jewish homeland in Palestine being a definite state.

Michael Lerner qualifies, as a supporter of the continued existence of the State of Israel and a supporter, though with sympathy for the Palestinians, of its establishment as a refuge for Jews in the first place.

I'm aware that two-staters are loathed by many in Israeli politics, but both the Israeli government and the Israeli population have been at least nominally committed to a two-state solution for a while.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. So your solution is for the disolution of the State of Israel?

lets get you on the record here

[Unvanguard]

70. Um, what?

I don't believe I've said anything about my personal views on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict here.

As an anarchist, I support the dissolution of every state. I am also opposed to the expulsion, oppression, or marginalization of any of the present inhabitants of Israel, be they Arab or Jew.

Not of that, of course, has anything to do with the meaning of the word "Zionist" and the legitimacy of its application to Michael Lerner.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. News to you

Lerner has busted his whole life trying to get progressive values and the respect of everybody in that region, whether Arab, Jew, Druze, or Palestinian... just as he's busted his life doiing the same here

Now anarchism is a nice theory, good luck wiht the social animal that is humanity.

[Unvanguard]

72. News to you

That had absolutely nothing to do with my post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Yes it did

Lerner IS a progressive, and he has lived a live centered on PROGRESIVE ideas.

And... International ANSWER kept him out, as well as others who are REAL PROGRESSIVES who have been at this far longer than they have.

[Unvanguard]

74. Yeah, I know Lerner's a progressive.

ANSWER had their own reasons for keeping him out, which, while probably unjustified, hardly seem to justify the accusations of anti-Semitism which have been leveled against it.

I really don't care all that much; I don't like ANSWER anyway. It's just that I don't like misuse of the term "Zionist" - for what it's worth, mostly because a lot of decent left-wing Zionists are unfairly villified by misunderstanding of its meaning.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Having experienced their antisemitism first hand

I hardly think those accuasations are unwarranted...

If it were only me, in my local area... bad apples and all that.

But is is not only me, or my local area.

;-)

[Moochy]

76. and to clarify

I only claim that those individuals holding the ANSWER sign and chanting "death to jews, death to israel" were hateful, racist pigs. How much more clear does a chant need to be to be called antisemitic?

Now, I don't think the founders of ANSWER, or their backers are aware of or condone that type of clear racism.. but who knows?

:toast: happy st paddys day!

[Moochy]

63. I'm not saying that he is zionist or not

I just like his writings about the situation in Israel.

The Zionist / Anti-Zionist labels are not very constructive terms to me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. No they are not

especially since they no longer mean a thing...

[Moochy]

68. And just a point I wanted to make re: ANSWER

A very trusted friend of mine has reported similar bullshit antisemitism first-hand with ANSWER events in SF.

I think that there is some inexcuseable allowance of antisemitism within that group, since the chants he described should have been shouted down by the organizer's leadership, IMO. There were other anti-war groups there shouting at them from what my friend described.

Anyways thought I'd chime in with that 2nd hand anecdote, confirming what you described.

I think an organization with the name ACT NOW to STOP WAR and END RACISM needs to do better on the last two letters.

Cheers

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Yes,. yes thdy do

cheers

It is St paddy's day after all

:toast:

[Lilith Velkor]

77. On 9/30 there was going to be a World Bank/IMF protest

After 9/11, the anti-corporate globalization crowd hooked up with some real hardline commie bastards, and ANSWER was the result.

Those guys are creepy. I bet the Moonies are involved.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. That explains it partially, thank you

but CONTRIELPRO like operation is even more likely... when you have two groups like this come out together infiltration is oh so easy.

After all the IMF folks are anti BFEE as you can get, and add to that some old time marxists (not as bad as the Leninist) and you are ready for quite the operation.

(and yes if you are going to nitpick there is a difference between Marxists, Marxist Leninist and Stalinists and poor Marx is probably doing summersaults in his grave)

[Scurrilous]

79. These guys are so clever...

....they even protest themselves.

:sarcasm:


PRESS RELEASE on June 1 Emergency National Anti-War Conference

June 2, 2002

600 ANTI-WAR ACTIVISTS ATTEND JUNE 1 EMERGENCY NATIONAL ANTI-WAR CONFERENCE IN NEW YORK CITY

Over 600 activists with International A.N.S.W.E.R. met yesterday in New York City and announced plans for a mass June 29 demonstration at the FBI's Washington D.C. headquarters to protest John Ashcroft's domestic espionage program that targets political organizations, mosques and community groups.

A.N.S.W.E.R. -- which stands for Act Now to Stop War & End Racism -- was one of the central forces behind the 100,000-strong March for Palestine April 20th in Washington, D.C. The activists who planned this demonstration came from around the country Saturday for an all-day, anti-war conference opposing Bush's war policies that threaten Iraq, Colombia, and the Philippines, back genocide against Palestinians, and take money from people's needs and funnel it to the Pentagon.

A special section on the conference's Opening Plenary entitled "Emergency action plan to fight back against the FBI and Ashcroft" featured Mara Verheyden-Hilliard and Carl Messineo, attorneys and co-founders of the Partnership for Civil Justice. "Today we have launched a national fightback movement to stop John Ashcroft and the FBI from bringing back the very worst features from J. Edgar Hoover's reign over domestic intelligence," stated Mara Verheyden-Hilliard, also a member of the A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition steering committee.

"Ashcroft's changes have been presented as an innocuous update of FBI procedures," said Verheyden-Hilliard. "This has become the preferred method of presentation by Ashcroft as the Justice Department shreds the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights.

"These changes, however, are much more insidious than simply allowing the FBI to surf the web," Verheyden-Hilliard continued. "They are a full-scale revival of Cointelpro, the notorious government infiltration program which reached its peak in the 60s and was aimed at Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement."

"Ashcroft is facing a growing and powerful anti-war, anti-racist movement that won't be easily intimidated," said Larry Holmes, co-director of the International Action Center, also with A.N.S.W.E.R. "We're not going to let Ashcroft, the FBI, Bush and his right-wing gang -- with the complicity of the Democratic Party and Congress -- tear up the constitution, open up a war on political dissent, and stop the very necessary movement against his war-mongering, pro-rich madness."

Later in the day -- after a reportback from A.N.S.W.E.R.'s medical and legal delegation that just returned from the West Bank and Gaza -- conveners announced plans this summer for mass public inquiries entitled Commission of Inquiry hearings on U.S.-backed Israeli war crimes against the people of Palestine.


http://www.actionsf.org/anspr020602.htm:sarcasm:

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. Read on CONTRIELPRO, serrious

you really need to educate yourself on how that one went down

[Lilith Velkor]

81. I remember that one

There weren't very many white people at those protests back in '02.

[Scurrilous]

85. The Real Movement And The Media Movement

The Real Movement And The Media Movement

by Lou Paulsen

February 17, 2003

A Touch Of Lerneritis

<snip>

"The U.S. anti-war movement that appears in the headlines and feature stories of the corporate media is not the same thing as the U.S. anti-war movement that actually exists in real life.

The real-life movement is composed of hundreds of thousands of people across this country, women and men of all nationalities and backgrounds and sexual orientations, of the working class and the middle class and even a few bourgeoisie, and of all political backgrounds to the left of Dick Cheney's.

We organize rallies, we charter buses and ride on them together, we talk with each other like civilized people. We do the mundane ordinary things of movement-doing. We make signs, we copy leaflets, we put up unskilled-looking websites or even good-looking ones if there is somebody on hand with some skills. We appreciate each other's work. And we get together at the same time and place and shout down the war.

We do these things rather unhindered by the fact that some of us are churchgoers and others are long-time Marxists and others are Al Gore Democrats, by the fact that some of us are anti-imperialists and others are pacifists and others are merely horrified by this particular illegal war of conquest. Some of us recognize the need to oppose war and occupation and sanctions in all their forms; others have not gotten to that stage. But is not a secret to any sector of us that the other sectors are on the bus. It is not a tremendous sacrifice for us to get along with each other. We get along with our relatives at holiday dinners, even the irritating ones; we get along with our co-workers; we can get along with the other people in our unions, our churches, our college classes. And we get along with the rest of the people on the bus, or in the meeting, or at the demonstration, who share with us a sincere opposition to this war."

<snip>

"The media-story movement is quite different. For one thing, it's about one tenth the size of the real movement. Where the real movement brings out hundreds of thousands, the media-story movement brings out 'tens of thousands' or even 'thousands'.

Furthermore, the media-story movement is always divided, racked by rifts, seeking for its soul. In the media stories the coalitions are at war with each other like the ancient Greek city-states. The media are at pains to pick out which are the "extremists" and which are the "mainstream" and to speculate on the outcomes of the supposed wars among the coalitions, just as they speculate about the threatened holocaust in Iraq, or on a football game.

The media-story movement is sick. It is always being diagnosed by pundits-of-the-movement, people who are not in the movement but who are incessantly writing and speaking about its supposed problems and inadequacies and diseases. The pundits-of-the-movement never find the movement to be too timid, overly patriotic, or too narrowly focused. They invariably diagnose the movement as suffering from the disease of left extremism. They 'expose' communists and pro-Palestinians and anti-imperialists and unpatriotic people for the edification of the readers of the Washington Post or the New York Times. They grimly point to speakers on the podium who make links with other struggles and other wars, in Palestine, Colombia, the Philippines, Vieques, Korea, or the oppressed communities here in the US, or who read the words of imprisoned revolutionary Mumia Abu-Jamal, and they declare that the movement cannot grow and recruit 'normal people' until that cancer is excised."

more

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Interesing I still remember the antisemitism

at the single and last demonstration organized by ANSWER I atended.

After taht I will ONLY attend those NOT organized by them... yes, it is that simple

[Behind the Aegis]

87. It is all in your head!

Don't you know that anti-Semitism is just a "boogeyman?!" Don't you know that the good people on the "left" would never engage in Jew-hate?! (I have to say "Jew-hate" lest the conversation devolve into how anti-Semitism is about "Semites" and not Jews.)

For the daft...this is called :sarcasm:. Fortunately, nadinbrzezinski is not one of the daft, but one of the ones with "eyes wide open!"

[mahmoud al_hazen]

88. Int'l ANSWER is a conservative intel-mining op?

Lots of tinfoil, but the implications are interesting. Usually a greedy hegemon-American is just that though.