Chemtrail program on Discovery Channel just starting

[karlrschneider]

182 on Dish...for the tinfoilers.
:D

[magellan]

1. Thanks! I watched till the first commercial break

Interesting. I just can't sit in front of the tv for the next hour. Somebody please let me know what the tests at the end reveal.

[karlrschneider]

3. So far 20 minutes in, it seems to be fairly well balanced reporting.

...

[CatholicEdHead]

2. All overblown

They are CONTRAILS. The condensation stays depending on the relative humidity at that flight level. The more moist it is up there the longer they stays. There is no AERIAL SPRAYING.

[karlrschneider]

4. The amusing and ironic thing, though, is that many of the same people who

imagine it's some grand conspiracy also get hysterical about global warming which would actually be
-reduced- if they really were doing this. :eyes:

[texanwitch]

5. Sorry but there is aerial spraying.

Today in Houston we had nice blue sky, not a cloud in sight.

Then the planes came out, and it was not contrails.

The plane was below 32,000 feet.

The planes were making big X's in sky, and all these wierd looking clouds started to form.

This is has been going on for years.

[postulater]

6. What are they spraying and why?

[NoPasaran]

7. They're seeding the clouds with magic beans!

:scared:

[Blue-Jay]

30. magic EVIL beans!

:D

[NoPasaran]

44. The worst kind!

[karlrschneider]

9. They are spraying ASPARTAME to poison us all!!1!11!1!!

Im SERIES!!11!!11!

[texanwitch]

10. We don't know, could be anything.

Just watch the skies, you will see it.

The planes make big X's with whatever they are spraying.

Then the spray expands into weird looking clouds.

Contrails melt and disappear very fast, and the plane has to be 32,000 ft. or higher.

Today was not humid.

[karlrschneider]

11. I fly planes from zero up to 45,000 feet. I have generated contrails

at every altitude between those. Whatever your humidity on the ground is doesn't have anything to do
with what happens above. Any time a plane going north crosses the path of one going east and they're making contrails (many years ago we called them 'vapor trails') there will be an "X". Your 32,000 foot figure is ridiculous, arbitrary and silly.

[texanwitch]

14. I have planes fly over my house from the airport.

They fly low somethings, I can tell what airline it is.

There are no contrails coming from these planes.

Sometimes there are two planes working at the same time, flying damn close to each other.

I have seen grids made in the sky.

I am not going to try to change minds here, think what you want.

I do know the difference between a chemtrail and a contrail.

To many planes fly over my house from the airport.

[karlrschneider]

28. You said something like "then the planes came out"

I wonder if you even realize how silly that comment is? At any given moment there are probably
100 planes within 50 miles of Houston. Which airport, Hobby or Bush? Also, a plane can NOT make
a contrail if the temp is above freezing. It don't freeze in Houston much. I'm sorry, you're just
being completely paranoid/ridiculous.
:eyes:


(grids in the sky??? jeezus...)

[dogday]

77. I grew up on an air force base a SAC base actually

and used to see the trails made by the planes, but they quickly disapear... The ones over Houston are not like that... They seem to stay in the sky forever....

[sabbat hunter]

87. if they are low enough to tell what airline

then you will not get contrails. they have to be at an altitude where clouds will form due to temperatures.


if you are spraying at 45k feet then you will completely miss the target you are aiming at for "chem trails"

[Decruiter]

15. KarlS, answer me this?

I grew up watching jets, clouds and the weather everyday in my youth, in Southeastern Colorado. The trails the many jets left used to disappear pretty quickly.

Some trails left in the skies now do not go away anymore, why not? Have you really looked into this, Karl?

(I've read lots of your posts and I have the utmost respect for you.)

[karlrschneider]

23. I can only tell you what I do know. I lived in Roswell, NM in the late

1940s when Walker AFB there was active. They flew B-36 planes, long before there were any commercial passenger jets. They flew high enough to make a lot of contrails around there (they were called 'vapor trails' back then.) That's when I became interested in aviation and weather.

Some of them would be gone in minutes and some would hang around for hours. It all depends on the
upper level winds. The fact is, there are Ten times more high altitude flights right now than there
were even a decade ago. I don't want to get into what they may be doing to the upper atmosphere right now, that's a different discussion but just want to explain that in my opinion which I think has some
credibility as I'm a commercial pilot since 1963 and a graduate aeronautical engineer almost that long.

I didn't fly today, and I was out in the yard picking up broken tree limbs from the ice storm from a couple weeks ago and as usual was occasionally peering up at the sky. I also had my aviation radio turned on, listening to the comings and goings of the airplanes in and out of Tulsa, 30 miles away and
those passing through the area at high altitude also.

It's just something I do...hear them talking to air traffic control and being able to see them
'in the flesh', as it were. There were several contrails which I was able to directly identify
since I knew exactly which aircraft was overhead. I'd say 4 out of 10 were private planes (like I
fly) - Lear jet types (many people think there are only 3 kinds of airplanes: Piper Cubs, Lear jets
and 747s) ;-)

I really think there's a simple explanation for your observation. When the contrails disappear
quickly, you don't really 'think about' them...since they're so ephemeral (the upper wind blows them away) but when there isn't much wind up there, they just 'hang around' and so you tend to notice them.

The upper air currents around here were very weak today and there were several lingering contrails,
which as I mentioned, I mostly knew from where they came. :D

Anyway, I seriously doubt there's some secret cabal putting weird chemicals into my fuel tanks.
I'm pretty sure the engines would protest. We buy jet fuel from different sources every few days
depending on where we are. I also know the military gets theirs from the same refineries that our
suppliers do...if they're adding some funny stuff to it after they put it in the planes I would be
extremely surprised. I just don't buy this chemtrail stuff. Hope this helps.
ks

[all.of.me]

61. thank you.

well said. i don't buy it, either.

[donheld]

66. I'm on your side karlrschneider

I've been watching contrails in Denver my entire 47 years, ok I probably didn't watch very closely when i was a tot, but I have been watching for a very long time. Denver has plenty of air traffic on any given day. Some days contrails vanish quite quickly other days they hang in the air for hours. It's always been that way. Yes they criss-cross. That's because some planes go north some south some east some west. They're bound to criss-cross. I've even seen some days the sky was totally empty of contrails. I'm sure it's not because on those days there is no air traffic that day. There's air traffic every day. It's all, like you said, a matter of atmospheric conditions.

Besides IMHO "Chem-trails" would be a really inefficient way of spreading any kind of chemicals around the country.

[lovuian]

22. Check out the Weather Modification Act that is suppose to be

voted on by Congress it may have already been voted

If Global Warming gets worse they will try Geoengineering

[Decruiter]

13. Hang tough, texanwitch.

Been watching them for a long time. You have fellow believers in North Texas.

:hug: :tinfoilhat:

[texanwitch]

16. Thank you Decruiter.

It was bad here today, the plane was really working.

I think this issue scares people, it scares me.

I stopped trying to change people minds about this along time ago.

All you can do is plant a little seed, and hope it grows.

[Decruiter]

18. Yep. Exactly..

I'm not so much scared as pissed off.

You do know Kucinich believes they are for real, or at least at one time he did.

[originalpckelly]

24. Listen tubenburbles, it's just water vapor that's been condensed and forms ice crystals.

Forget about it.

[karlrschneider]

31. Trying to explain basic science to tinfoilers is like teaching pigs to sing.

:eyes:

[originalpckelly]

33. Hey, these are our evolution "skeptics"

I think skepticism is always in order, but this is not skepticism. These people forward theories, yet have no evidence to back those theories up. If they just said we don't know, and it could be anything, I might go along with that, but not this BS.

[karlrschneider]

38. And yet some of these same people will go ballistic over global warming

which these so-called 'experiments' are supposedly being done to SLOW IT DOWN! They have 2 different
and contradictory takes on it. Good grief.
:eyes:

[lovuian]

69. We never said Bush was smart just desperate for a solution

and he went to scientists who thought they could manipulate the weather with chemicals or a big mirror in the sky

[MonkeyFunk]

70. But these scientists

do it all on the hush-hush? They don't measure their results and publish them for peer review and input?

Meteorology is already an incredibly complex field. Weather manipulation would be even MORE complex, and yet a handful of guys are doing it on the down-low? It doesn't make sense.

[lovuian]

72. Bush is not a brainiac and he can get a bozo scientist

look at whose running Fema Brown and katrina disaster ...he showed Horses for goodness sake he wasn't qualified

Look at the EPA ...Christy said the air at 911 was safe we got first responders dying of lung disease

if you guys want to trust a governmnent that lied about WMD you just go right ahead

:rofl: we will see we will see

[MonkeyFunk]

73. Nonsense

nobody's saying trust them on everything.

But the notion that a secret cabal of scientists is trying to influence our weather is a rather extraordinary claim, and as you know, to believe it would require some extraordinary evidence.

[lovuian]

74. Well since I can't go in the Pentagon and get the documents

I can only go by eye witness reports and water level data


so I guess you have all the evidence... and that makes you right

feel better

I'll just stay my little tinfoil self
and be my crazy little suspicous self

[lovuian]

48. I bet Al Gore thought the same thing when he talked about

global Warming all over the world
:rofl:

[SidDithers]

63. Why do you keep equating chemtrails with Global Warming...

do you seriously think that there's just as much evidence for chemtrails as for global warming?

Let me see your :rofl: and raise you a :eyes:

Sid

[lovuian]

71. LOL this is getting fun How do I equate chemtrails with Global

Warming

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=HAL20051020&articleId=1120

In the case of at least one geoengineering measure, by no means the most ‘outlandish’, namely: ‘Enhancing Clouds to Reflect Sunlight’, a mass of eyewitness evidence for all over the world suggests that, despite official denials, a programme serving some such purpose is not merely a proposal but a reality and has been under implementation on an immensely large scale for at least a decade.



How significant are official denials? Note that the Popular Science article itself admits that the US administration’s words about ‘proof that the planet is warming’ do not match its deeds. If untruthful official denial of global warming is possible, why should untruthful official denial of actually ongoing measures, supposedly to combat global warming, not similarly be possible?



2.



Geoengineering is defined as ‘intentional large scale manipulation of the global environment’, e.g. by altering climate with the primary intention of reducing undesired climate change caused by human influences. ‘Geoengineering schemes seek to mitigate the effect of fossil-fuel combustion on the climate without abating fossil fuel use; for example by placing shields in space to reduce the sunlight incident on the Earth.’ (Keith D.W. 1999. Geoengineering, Encyclopedia of Global Change, New York).

this stuff has all been in Popular Science NY Times and other news article
Where have you guys been watching contrails I guess or producing them
:rofl: Get out of the clouds and understand the PANIC these governmnents are in because Global Warming is happening at far rapid pace
islands are disappearing under sea level rise NOW not in 75 years
They are disappearing NOW

[muriel_volestrangler]

76. Since the reports of chemtrails started in the 1990s

I presume it's Al Gore and Bill Clinton you're accusing of producing them?

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/chemfaq.shtml

[vincent_vega_lives]

80. To kickstart Global Warming

Part of Al Gore's pre Inconvenient Truth release promotion scheme. :eyes:

[karlrschneider]

8. A couple of questions:

How do you know the altitude of the planes?
How do you know they were not contrails?
Why is a 'big X' significant?
And finally, what do you think is "going on"?

[texanwitch]

12. A plane flying 32,000 or more is very hard see.

A contrail is ice crystals, remember seeing films of B-17 bombers flying in WWII.

A contrail cannot form unless the plane is flying very high.

The chemtrail planes fly low, you can see them, the planes start very low and fly almost straight up.

Why make a X, I don't know.

Why this is happening, think about who running our government.

Why do we have a war in Iraq, maybe Iran.

Google chemtrails, there is lots of information out there.

All I can say is watch the sky, you will see it.

[Pavulon]

17. Combustion, physics, reality..

The wings of an airplane cause a drop in air pressure in the vicinity of the wing (this is partly what enables a plane to fly). This drop in air pressure brings with it a drop in temperature, which can cause water to condense out of the air and form a contrail but only at higher altitudes. At lower altitudes, this phenomenon is also known as "ectoplasm." Ectoplasm is more commonly seen during high energy manouvers like those of a fighter jet, or on jet liners during takeoff and landing, at areas of very low pressure, including over the wings, and often around turbo-fan intakes on takeoff.

Contrails and climate

Contrails, by affecting cloud formation, can act as a radiative forcing. Various studies have found that contrails trap outgoing longwave radiation emitted by the Earth and atmosphere (positive radiative forcing) at a greater rate than they reflect incoming solar radiation (negative radiative forcing). Therefore, the overall effect of contrails is a warming.<1> However, the effect varies daily and annually, and overall the size of the forcing is not well known: globally (for 1992 air traffic conditions), values range from 3.5 mW/m² to 17 mW/m². Other studies have determined that night flights are most responsible for the warming effect: while accounting for only 25% of daily air traffic, they contribute 60 to 80% of contrail radiative forcing. Similarly, winter flights account for only 22% of annual air traffic, but contribute half of the annual mean radiative forcing.

[karlrschneider]

35. Watch the sky??? I fucking WORK in the sky!

I can make a contrail on the fucking RUNWAY if the wx conditions are right.

And yes, contrails are mostly ice crystals...which is FROZEN WATER, one of the products of combustion!

Like when hydrocarbons are BURNED in an ENGINE.

You are seeing passenger jets fly STRAIGHT UP????? Can I buy some of whatever you're smoking?

Google Bigfoot, there is lots of information out there.

jeezusfuckingchrist...
:eyes:

[NoPasaran]

46. AIrcraft burn hydrocarbons; we're in Iraq to secure the hydrocarbons

Connect the dots people! Connect the dots!

[shance]

20. The Texas Weather Modification Act of 1967.

And of course the more recent Weather Modification Act of 2005, which is quite a controversial law, however it has been quickly swept under the rug.

[originalpckelly]

27. Of course, we all know that regular everyday contrails do have an effect upon the environment...

in fact it's even in the IPCC report on Climate Change.

[rman]

78. Sure, but why would one need a Weather Modification Act for that?

[lovuian]

37. Yes it was signed in 2005 Its the response to Global Warming

Junk scientists of Bush said don't worry about Global Warming
we will just fly barium and Alluminum into the air and it will reflect the sunlight back

I believe Texas and California are test areas

problem is what happens when the barium and alluminum get in our water system and air we breathe

The Bush government is scrambling trying to get out of the Global Warming Debacle

:rofl:

they are trying everything

[karlrschneider]

41. Not to defend the prick Bush and his cohorts (who should be in prison)

but there has been no aluminum or barium found in the atmosphere above nominal levels.
(And a lot of people have been looking for it)

[lovuian]

57. In California they found high levels of Aluminum & Barium

in the water levels over a large area

I think the Californians were onto their experimentation and then they started in Texas

just a theory

[shance]

51. No, the actual "reason" for the Weather Modification Act has absolutely nothing to do with Global

warming, other than perhaps to affect it as well in a less than forthcoming light.

The Weather Modification bill was passed under the radar with essentially NO MEDIA EXPOSURE.

Now that it has received a limited amount of criticism, concern and exposure, the sponsors of the Weather Modification bill and those profiting from such a measure are placing things on the Internet like it was not the secretive legislature that it most indeed was.

Its very vague and non specific on many counts however,

It has to do with allowing the manipulation of weather conditions and allowing the departments in Military to run exercises and to have oversight of such tests and experimentations with less regulation.

[postulater]

19. Anyone notice the delightful absence of contrails

in the several days of grounding after the 911 attacks? It was nice to be able to look up at the sky and just see the sky for a change.

[originalpckelly]

29. Interestingly, during those days climate scientists observed high ranges of temperatures...

which indicates that they have an effect on the environment.

But those are just water vapor condensed into water crystals.

[donheld]

67. I missed the contrails those days

I always have enjoyed watching the planes and their trails as they crossed the sky.

[lovuian]

21. Is the government playing with the environment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIAWWL4HQDg


There is a theory that placing sulfur in the upper atmosphere so that it will reflect

GeoEngineering

Barium Oxide and Aluminum

this could be the Bush answer to Global Warming

Weather Modification Act

Check it out people

[SidDithers]

25. I love contral threads...

I gotta admit that they're my most favourite threads on DU. It's my guilty passion.

That said, the gullibility of some people, even here, makes me worry for the future of the human race.

Sid

[KittyWampus]

32. Well it seems the discussion points to the possibility that there are now HUGE numbers of planes

spweing exhaust into our upper atmosphere. Way more than there was when I was growing up.

Is it healthy to be putting that much filth into our atmosphere on a daily basis along with all the car pollution?

[SidDithers]

34. Well, at least you recgonize it as exhaust...

and I agree that it's not wise to be directly putting that much crap into our upper atmosphere.

Sid

[lovuian]

39. Gullibility thats quite a word it can go both ways

Lots of people don't believe there is Global Warming

but time has a way of changing how we look at things
especially when you see the ice caps melting at rapid pace

Make no mistake Island nations are in fear of their future survival

5 years ago Gore was made out as Gullible ... Now he is nominated for nobel peace prize

Open Minded people is a gift

[SidDithers]

40. But there's science behind Global Warming...

chemtrails only exist on the internets.

Sid

[lovuian]

42. So you say

Theres people still thinking there is WMD in Iraq

[SidDithers]

45. I guess I must have missed the peer-reviewed articles...

confirming the existence of chemtrails and identifying their chemical composition.

Sid

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SidDithers]

60. Try to stay on topic...

I ask for the science behind chemtrails and you give a link to rense. Freakin rense!

So, once again. Peer reviewed articles about chemtrails, please.

Sid

[lovuian]

68. climate Change and Geoengineering

You ask I provide

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=HAL20051020&articleId=1120

Describing a meeting in the White House in September 2001 organized by the US President’s Climate Change Technology Program to discuss ‘Response Options to Rapid or Severe Climate Change’, the article frankly admits that ‘while administration officials were insisting publicly that there was no firm proof that the planet was warming, they were quietly exploring potential ways to turn down the heat.’



In March 2001 President Bush had withdrawn US support from the Kyoto Protocol. This meeting therefore represented something like a US counterproposal to Kyoto, an ‘alternative approach to climate change’.



Some years ago Edward Teller, in his ‘Sunscreen for Planet Earth’, made a similar ‘alternative’ proposal.



The physicist and economist David Keith, who was present at the White House meeting, is quoted in the article as saying ‘if they had broadcast that meeting live to people in Europe, there would have been riots.’



Anyone can see what the ‘geoengineering’ proposals were simply by reading the relevant article in Popular Science.



For those for whom that is difficult, the proposals included: 1) underground storage of carbon dioxide, 2) wind scrubbers to filter carbon dioxide from the air, 3) ‘fertilization’ of oceans with iron to encourage growth of plankton, 4) petrification of carbon dioxide, 5) deflection of sunlight from the earth through the use of a giant space mirror ‘spanning 600,000 square miles’.



One point worth mentioning at least in passing is that, apart from the question of how effective these measures would really be, all these highly oil-dependent ‘solutions’ to problems largely caused in the first place by burning fossil fuels, are being prepared for a world that is beginning to run out of oil. (!)



In the case of at least one geoengineering measure, by no means the most ‘outlandish’, namely: ‘Enhancing Clouds to Reflect Sunlight’, a mass of eyewitness evidence for all over the world suggests that, despite official denials, a programme serving some such purpose is not merely a proposal but a reality and has been under implementation on an immensely large scale for at least a decade.



How significant are official denials? Note that the Popular Science article itself admits that the US administration’s words about ‘proof that the planet is warming’ do not match its deeds. If untruthful official denial of global warming is possible, why should untruthful official denial of actually ongoing measures, supposedly to combat global warming, not similarly be possible?
more...

You guys need to catch up with the rest of us... your still on jet exhaust and we are ahead of you with "intentional manipulation of
global environment...

I'll just agree to disagree

[SidDithers]

75. Don't see anything about chemtrails in there...nt

Sid

[lovuian]

53. I bumped up a You Tube News Program from California

where they have been monitoring levels of Aluminum and Barium in the water system and the levels rose

Who would tell us
the EPA

thats the same EPA who told the rescue workers at 911 that the air quality was OK

and now thousands are dying of lung disease

Ya I'm laughing
gullibility :rofl:

[SidDithers]

62. I always get my research from youtube...

:eyes:

and what does any of that have to do with jet exhaust?

Sid

[lovuian]

65. The You tube news was from a TV station who showed

The Scientists have told you that they have been suppresed by this administration
and you get your information governmnent handed... Stay in the dark

but if you watched the news report by journalist
you would see


that increase abscence of children at school because they were sick Increased eye infections a yellow substance found and the results were INDETERMINATE but it wasn't biomaterial and increased water levels over a large area in aluminum and barium

all grafts and professional people

then you get a Governmnet official sayin they were Contrails BUT expect geoengineering in the future because of the Global Warming Crisis...

and that the Congress just passed quietly the Weather Modification act

Ya thats what there talking about whats in that Jet Exhaust... aluminum and barium to reflect the sun rays

They are in panic mode trying to stop Global Warming of which Bush scientists to this day DENY

[rman]

79. There's also science behind weather modification

And US government chemical experimentation on the population is well documented.

Yet still many people think the government would never do such things to 'their own people'. :eyes:

[DemoTex]

26. Damn you Karl!

You must be bored to toss out such bones to the true mad-dogs. I long since quit trying to explain contrails to the DU tin-foilers.

From high upon the vapor trail,
Mac


"Bondo Lead to Bondo flight; spray on at my command 3 .. 2 .. 1 .. SPRAY!"

[SidDithers]

36. You realize you're only encouraging them with that sig line...

:)

Sid

[DemoTex]

50. Encouraging them? No. Mocking them? Yes.

"Bondo Flight, Bondo Lead. We've been spotted by astute tin-foilers on the ground. Spray off on my command 3 .. 2 .. 1 .. OFF! HEY! HEY! United 757 at FL 350, I SAID SPRAYERS OFF!!"

[karlrschneider]

55. And well done, sir!

:D
:toast:

[karlrschneider]

49. LOL..hi Mac. Yeah, bored pretty much nails it. :D

Hey, get this...went for my phys this morning - the doc has the flu. (He's a pilot too) said
"You're way too healthy for an old fart" :D

(We're good friends, we can say stuff like that to each other) :rofl:

[DemoTex]

58. Like Tom Wolfe said in "The Right Stuff" ..

There are two ways to come out of the flight surgeons' office: Well or Grounded. Glad you are healthy and re-stamped for another year. I have been considering going in for a 3rd Class or Sportsman so that I can fly my buddy's J-3 or gliders.

My last logged landing was 9/8/2001 as a MD-80 captain at PIT. I went in for a FAA 1st Class on 9/10/2001, and busted on B/P. On 9/11, before I saw my internist and went on a hell-scripted trial of about twenty B/P meds, my B/P hit 220/110 (but so did most American's).

I haven't missed flying until very recently. Now I miss it like an addict misses his fix. It's all because of my friend and his newly re-built Cub. He has rebuilt several J-3s and Aeronca 7ACs, and has won awards at Osh Kosh. He tires very quickly of the finished product, and moves on to another basket-case. He has offered me this pristine J-3 for $30K (OBO) to keep it close while he tackles a war-bird.

[karlrschneider]

64. How things have changed. My very first hour of dual was in a J3.

I paid $4 an hour WET to rent it! When I think of all the bungled opportunities...I had the PT22 which you know about, bought for $1500 in 1963, it pains me to think what it would be worth now and my friend
at Harvey Young airport bought a P-51 for twelve grand about then (yeah it was big bucks for those days but my god try to find one now for under a mil)...he offered it to me for what he paid but of course no way could I come up with that kind of money. I guess the flying bug is cyclical, I got sick of it when I had to go every day, then I quit completely for a few years but couldn't stay away. Now I just take the occasional gig that's mostly sitting on the right side working the radio :D But I do have use of
a B58 Baron when I want but have to buy the gas and that ain't cheap these days. Sigh.

There are changes afoot in the physical exam venue, keep an eye on that...there's a pretty significant push to permit self-certification on medicals for some of us. Kinda like eliminating the code requirement for hams, I guess ;-)

We shall see. Take care of yourself. We need you around here.

[Wiley50]

43. Hey Karl! How's It Goin' My Okie Bro?

I know the diff btw Contrails and Chemtrails

But that's not why I kicked the thread

Just wanted to say Golly Howdee to ya!

And if I should happen to get the Powerball
Can You come pick me up in a Gulfstream IV
and help me blow my first hundred grand or so?

( Although my TX buddy Tom would have to rub it in
if he reads this post. Maybe he won't)

[karlrschneider]

52. Hell yeah! You buy the G-IV, I'll drive it for free for ya!

:D

Uh, you might have to cough up a few grand extra, i don't got a type in it yet. heh heh

BTW, I got the powerball Wed. night! No other numbers though...a whole 3 bucks. :-)

[Wiley50]

54. I hit The PB for $36 A couple of weeks ago

It's Gotta be an Omen!

BTW
How Big are you rated in?

[karlrschneider]

59. I actually have only 3 type ratings

L-18
DC-3
MU-300

Haven't flown the Lockheed or the Douglas for 15 years or so...I normally fly the MU-2 which doesn't require it or as 2nd pilot on one of Hardesty's Lears - I'm semi-retired but do a fair amount of
substitute flying when somebody needs me. :-)

[helderheid]

56. missed it but rec'n anyway!

[SocraticTruths]

81. My Observations of the Show

This is my first post at Democratic Underground. I have been at the big chemtrail forums the last year but have come to the conclusion that those have all been infiltrated by disinformation. My goal is to make DU my home for chemtrail posts. I do not wish to step on the toes of the 9/11 crowd,but this is the only place here for me to post. I also think that it is time for this subject to make it to mainstream forums. The forums devoted to chemtrails simply have too much tinfoil by association happening. Even if good things are posted there, I believe that such truths become useless, buried under the tinfoil and other bs.

The only good thing I have to say about that show is that this subject has finally been somewhat addressed by national television. Paul Moyer of KNBC Los Angeles has delivered a couple 5 minute reports. There has been some sporadic news articles through the years. Now I have always wondered why the Discovery Channel or some of the others have never covered this. We get Big Foots, Bermuda Triangles, JFK, et al, but never chemtrails. I have always found this to be a striking fact. If someone has wondered about why certain aircraft have been mucking up the skies, they have had to go to the internet. And then when they do, they are given plenty o'reasons to think this is a crazy conspiracy theory.

It is not a crazy ct. Something changed almost ten years ago that has never been explained.Now all of a sudden people like Minnis are non-challantly passing this all off as being a result of increased air traffic.To have proper chemtrail research it will take at least about 5-10 sincere people to flesh it out. That is my goal here at DU. The old school arguments of debunkers are no longer accepted. They used to say that this was a crazy hoax, that people were suffering from clouditis.Now with the BBC show on global dimming, now with even Minnis saying that aircraft are reshaping the atmosphere, the old school angle is seen for the smarmy debunking that it was. Now is the time to get the truth out to the masses. It is now time for the real chemmies to step up to the plate.

I could go on and on, but since this is my first post, I will just focus in on my observations of the show. I think that the show was ultimately flawed for two basic reasons. One, because of the focus on jet fuel. Two, because the show kept mentioning global warming as being the key reason why such a program would be in place.

The chief assumption about the jet fuel fails to acknowledge the many inventions that have been produced for "contrail/fake cloud" generation. Also, the military refused to allow the show to test their jet fuel. I do believe that additives could be put into jet fuel as part of the program. However, sulfate specifications have been applied to commercial jet fuel. The mucking up of the skies does appear to have sulfates as a lead ingredient. What many may not realize is that the military does not have to comply with such specifications. I am not surprised that the military would refuse to offer their jet fuel for sampling. I am a bit surprised that they didn't supply some fake version of their fuel. I believe that the testing on the commercial fuel is evidence that the commercial aircraft are not involved. There are many on chemtrail forums who are really debunkers or worse in chemmie clothes. They are astroturfing that all aircraft are involved. Based on my observations, this couldn't be farther from the truth, and this is one of the reasons I do not believe that chemtrail forums are for real. It is easy to discount the orbs/aliens, population culling, mind control, biological innoculation, and chembuster theories. Yet when the so-called logical chemmies are astroturfing that all aircraft are involved, that is where I draw the line.

The second point I wanted to make is that all the emphasis on global warming now appears to be a strawman argument. Spraying has been observed at night. Such spraying keeps the solar radiation in, making the planet hotter. Also, if the chemtrails were to stop global warming, they apparently aren't working. And even if it is some type of Frankensteinian approach to combatting global warming, such a strategy has been argued to be best done in the stratosphere. What we have been witnessing is occuring in the troposphere.

It was telling to me that the show made no mention of the ozone holes. It is fairly well established that this is a huge problem which can only heal itself in 50-100 years. While the Montreal Protocols were a solid and necessary approach, it will take many, many decades before it is safe to spend much time outside in the sun. There was also a study done which showed that sulfates placed in the troposphere are very effective in attenuating the harmful effects of uv-b radiation.

This is my theory based on much research into this. I believe that chemtrails are all about the Frankensteinian management of the atmosphere while promoting the status quo of destroying the atmosphere. C02 takes many centuries to work itself out. These Frankenscientists and their corporate/military bosses are all about continuing the status quo. It would take a FDR like new deal to address the symptoms of the planet's duress. Their goals are to play God all in the name of profit.

I think that global warming is real, but that the program has accelerated this. I believe that "they" may even be doing this on purpose. Get everyone in a huff over this, and then they think they will get a blank check to "save the day". The problem with this being portrayed as good for us is that if it were, it would not be covert. These buggers in my honest opinion are up the creek trying to hurdle social and legal implications. Now, I do believe that much of what they are doing now can help "them" with their future plans to geoengineer the planet. So in a way this does have something to do with global warming. More important to them however is to keep the pig profits and continuous wars.

I have read some good threads here in the past on chemtrails. I believe that the few of us can get the ball rolling here at DU, and as the word spreads, more and more people will join in and help. I am not averse to debunkers. I am one obviously from the tinfoil by association argument made above. But I don't think it is worthwhile to interact with any debunker whose intent is to label this as crazy. I believe that there are fake believers and fake debunkers. The chemtrail forums are full of them. The chemtrail forums are not the place to go to figure this out.

I'll leave you all with one crazy quote from Colin Powell from 2002. What does it all mean Basil?

Colin Powell: "We are committed not just to rhetoric and to various goals, we are committed to a billion-dollar program to develop and deploy advanced technologies to mitigate greenhouse-gas emissions."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2002/09/05/a1_5.php

[wildbilln864]

82. Moderators, please...

this has nothing to do with September 11th! Shouldn't it be in the "Skepticism, Science and Psuedoscience" forum? Just wondering!
:hi:

[SocraticTruths]

83. I see your point, but.....

I won't say but, but, Clinton, because I am a progressive and not a wingnut, but this is where it seems the chemtrails are allowed. I thought I read where DU wants all "conspiracy theories" in this Sept.11th section.

I have been lurking at this place for about a year. I like writing on forums but have no forum home any longer. I was at chemtrail forums, but those just make me feel queasy now. Plus, I wish to bring a non-tinfoil approach to chemtrails. I feel your pain, but on the other hand, why shouldn't those who believe in conspiracy theories other than 9/11 feel that this section shouldn't highlight 9/11 so much? I think they should turn this into two sections. Obviously, there are a lot of folks interested in 9/11, and I said earlier I am not trying to step on your toes. Maybe there could be another section for the rest of us.

Now while I empathize with this feeling that we are in the "dungeon", I still think it is nice that DU allows us to post at all. It seems that many websites like Daily Kos are the problem with their complete censorship. If I am wrong about that, my apologies go to that website.

[SidDithers]

84. Skeptics is a group, for donors only...

this is a forum, open to all memebers. That's why all the nutbar shithattery gets dumped in here.

Sid

[SocraticTruths]

85. DU is clever......

not to allow ad hominen attacks in the main forums. Does this mean that I can call whatever you post about "nutbar shithattery" too?

I am new here. Is there an ignore button? Is that what a lot of people do, because there is nothing to be gained by interacting with such nasty people.

[SidDithers]

86. Sure ...

as long as you don't call me a nutbar shithat, you can call my ideas and opinions whatever you like.

Sid

Edit: and the ignore button is that little person with the red x, at the top of my post. Feel free to use it, if your sensibilities are too delicate to engage in free discussion.

[SocraticTruths]

88. OK, your writing not you comes across as wingnut disinfo

I would never think to call you an asshat, but your words are the kind that they write. You can play semantics all day, but the truth is a bunch of you are posting a lot in this section as debunkers and the only aim seems to be to portray myself and others as that goofy term you came up with. You are acting no different than any of the paid wingnuts who we the people know all about. We know all about the disinfo and trolling. Now, I wrote a fairly long post on the subject at hand. If you don't have anything to say on that, then maybe yourself and others who belittle with no facts should go away. The bottom line is that it makes no sense for people like yourself to be posting on things you find to be so silly. If you want to call my writings asshat shittery or whatever you said, then I will simply point out that your writings have all tghe trademarks of a paid, disinformation agent. I am not talking about you personally of course, unless you want to admit to something, but if you don't have anything of subastance to post on this topic then I believe there is an acronym on the internet called stfu. So either dscuss what I wrote or the topics at hand or stay off the threads or at least find a way to keep that phrase you wrote about me and others out of your posts. You're just playing semantics to cover up your troll like behaviour. Too many of you like to belittle others for the fun of it.

So you have anything to say on my post about this thread's topic? Do you have anything to offer? Why are you in this dungeon? Why not go to the other sections of this forum before others might think your writings represent those of a paid diinformation cretin. I'm not talking about you of course. It's all about about your two sentence posts adding nothing to anything but ridicule and disruption. And if you and others continue, surely I will start using that ignore feature. Tell your writings to stop being such a wingnut. This website is for democratics and progressives. Your writings are full of asshatness.

[SidDithers]

89. You're free to say whatever you want about my writings...

As far as the thread topic, here's my opinion, which I've written in other chemtrail threads. You're new here, so you may not have seen the other threads.

There is no evidence for Chemtrails.

Now, those who go about believing that the government is poisoning them through spraying from high altitude jets deserve all the scorn and ridicule that they get. Their opinions are completely faith-based because they have not, ever, posted supporting scientific peer-reviewed evidence of their claim.

If you want to believe in chemtrails, more power to you. But please don't expect us to take anything else you may have to say seriously. The belief in chemtrails is so indicative of a woo-woo worldview, and shows such a tremendous lack of critical thinking, that almost anything posted by a chemtrail believer is suspect from the beginning.

Now, excuse me, I'm off to cash my "paid disinformation cretin" cheque.

Sid

[SocraticTruths]

90. Unless you have something to add but ridicule, your writings are a waste of time.

"As far as the thread topic, here's my opinion, which I've written in other chemtrail threads. You're new here, so you may not have seen the other threads. There is no evidence for Chemtrails."



That's not the topic of this thread. The title here isn't If you don't believe in chemtrails, please make ridiculing remarks about anyone who is curious why the skies are getting mucked up by specific aircraft. I asked if you had anything to say about the Discovery Channel special or on my long post on it.



"Now, those who go about believing that the government is poisoning them through spraying from high altitude jets deserve all the scorn and ridicule that they get. Their opinions are completely faith-based because they have not, ever, posted supporting scientific peer-reviewed evidence of their claim."




There's no need to keep astroturfing that debunkers believe that chemmies think we are being poisoned by the evil NWO. The chemtrail forums have been infiltrated with the woowoos and tinfoil by association disinfo agents. This is about Frankensteinian geoengineering. The fake believers and fakes like Minnis and Wigley do deserve scorn for their outrageous ideas. But you are not playing fair by disrupting this thread's topic. You are not playing fair by generalizing about anybody interested in discussing that show or other chemtrail topics. There is plenty of evidence that chemtrails are real. You astroturfing that there is no proof is no proof that there is no proof.




"If you want to believe in chemtrails, more power to you. But please don't expect us to take anything else you may have to say seriously. The belief in chemtrails is so indicative of a woo-woo worldview, and shows such a tremendous lack of critical thinking, that almost anything posted by a chemtrail believer is suspect from the beginning.

Now, excuse me, I'm off to cash my "paid disinformation cretin" cheque."


Keep on with the astroturfing. Whatever. Your writings are nothing but lame attempts at obfuscating, disrupting, and making ad hominen attacks. I think members should put your writings on ignore, and that lurkers should simply stroll by the shit you post.

[greyl]

91. You should get used to the idea of being disagreed with in

about another 11 posts.

[SidDithers]

92. Members don't put writings on ignore...

they put posters on ignore, which you are free to do.

"There is plenty of evidence that chemtrails are real."

Really. In which journal may I find this peer-reviewed proof?

I think that may have been the unanswered question that I also asked upthread.

Sid

[SocraticTruths]

93. I will stop responding to you or anyone else if there is any needless ridiculing.

I will be looking forward to interactions with any sincere debunkers, although I am more interested in working with those already aware of the situation. There is plenty of evidence of geoengineering and aspirations for doing so, yet proof of chemtrails as you request will not be forthcoming. This is because nearly all scientists find most geoengineering ideas to be grotesque in nature. There is probably proof of frankenscientist peer reviews, but such writings would be classified under that fake security clause nonsense. As for your picture, I'm sure you could have found a better one, one more difficult to explain. Do you have an explanation for what changed in the late 90s? Even Minnis acknowledges that planes are mucking up the skies. Chinese aerosols and African dust may be your best bet. Obviously, the tinfoil by association has worked to a great extent. That is why I cam up with the critical review of the Discovery Channel show, the topic of this thread.

[SidDithers]

95. You have an explanation for that picture?...

I'd love to hear it.

How hard could it be to prove those lines in the sky are something other than contrails? Has nobody in the pseudoscientific research field ever thought of flying up and sampling them? If they were anything other than jet exhaust, then it should be simple to identify what other chemicals are present, and to show increasing concentrations of those chemicals as the researcher got closer to the "chemtrail".

Has nobody tried to take samples? And I don't want to hear about ground sampling, there's no way to link the whatever is found to its source.

Sid

[SocraticTruths]

97. Ignore Time

I liked Second City Television with Eugene Levy, John Candy, Andrea Martin, but your writings serve only as a distraction. I was hoping maybe you had a comment on my post on the show or on the show itself, otherwise people find the old school debunking to be ludicrous tripe. I am interested in chemtrails and in other peoples' opinions/ research / ideas on them.

It's all on film and in photos. No way this can be covered up. Everyone will know about chemtrails over the next years unless the Frankenstein nonsense ceases. So maybe you can find some other "chemmie" who cares what you think. You had nothing to add on my long post on the actual topic of this thread. That says it is now iggy time.

[SidDithers]

102. So, nobody has tried to take samples?...

I, too, am interested in chemtrail research. The truth is that I simply haven't found any.

Sid

[SidDithers]

107. .

Sid

[SidDithers]

104. kick...

'cause I just loves me them chemtrailers!

Sid

[SocraticTruths]

94. Why for Global Warming? Ozone Hole Protection Makes More Sense.

I haven't seen much spraying the last month here in Bostonia. A similar stoppage seemed to take place around the time of the Moyer reports. Geonengineering proposals to combat global warming have been around for a while. You had the Teller plan. Benford wrote a big article on it.


Gregory Benford | November 1997
Climate Controls:
If we treated global warming as a technical problem instead of a moral outrage, we could cool the world.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/30433.html


Crutzen's plan is to geoengineer in the stratosphere. What we are seeing in beind done in the troposphere. There also is a net warming effect from the aviation emissions. It appears that "they" are trying to accelerate the global warming in search of a blank Frankensteinian check to play their atmospheric chemistry games.

I think that it makes more sense that the reason we see the spraying being done in the troposphere around the sun is to radiatively forcing the uv-b rays. I think spraying has been done at night because they thought it would be less obvious. Whenever they are too blatant, more and more people start asking questions and spreading the word. I also feel in my gut that they are trying to make the global warming worse.

Frankensteinian UV-B radiation aerosol mitigation makes the most sense to me for what we are witnessing. Here is some info from a "respectable" scientific source that backs this up. I think another sign that this is the reason for what we are currently seeing is that we never hear about this too much as a theory for the chemtrails. Finally, I wrote before that it is harmful to be out in the sun too much. The problem however is that we need the sun to get our vitamin D.

http://sedac.ciesin.columbia.edu/ozone/rtm/uvsens.html
4. Boundary Layer Ozone Sensitivity
Ozone in the troposphere and particularly in the boundary layer play an important role in surface UV budgets. Brühl and Crutzen (1989) indicated the disproportionate role that tropospheric ozone plays in UV-B absorption; more scattering events in the lower atmosphere due to greater molecular and aerosol scattering effectively lengthen the ozone path length in the troposphere, thus making a given quantity of ozone in the troposphere more effective in attenuating UV-B than an equal amount of ozone in the stratosphere.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

96. Welcome to DU.

Nice to have another person arguing using logic, as opposed to the loony bunko theories spewed by the OCT's. :hi:

[SocraticTruths]

98. Thanks

Thanks for the nice welcome. I am looking for logical chemmies also. I have read some of the threads here before and there were some really good posts. The more photo and video links the better so newbies can see what we are talking about. They might have been inside all day. It really can take a good one to two hours to see what "they" are up to. These are not commercial airlines, and it doesn't take that many of them to get the skies all mucked. I just think people were kind of put in a malaise from all the disinfo crazy Rense/ Chemtrail Central, etc. type bullcrap. I kind of trust Will Thomas. I know he's selling books off of it, but he is a writer. A lot of that science material on geoengineering is in pdf's and hard to locate in search engines or for some reason the links are gone. I think the plan was to round us all up at Rense and Tom Flocco, all that crazy conjecture. It's been a tinfoil by association thing in my honest opinion.

But I'll try to put up a few links, maybe next thread or here we can find a way to ignore the debunkers and start to put the pieces together that we do know.

[SocraticTruths]

99. Weather Modification Bill

I could have sworn this bill has been shelved. Anyone have the info? They are so secretive about all this but the words from this bill are revealing, just like when Kucinich put the word chemtrail into a bill a few years back.

http://www.theorator.com/bills109/s517.html
109th CONGRESS
1st Session
S. 517

To establish the Weather Modification Operations and Research Board, and for other purposes.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
March 3, 2005

{excerpts}
Mrs. HUTCHISON introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation

------------------------------------------------------------------------

A BILL

To establish the Weather Modification Operations and Research Board, and for other purposes.


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,


SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.


This Act may be cited as the `Weather Modification Research and Technology Transfer Authorization Act of 2005'.


SEC. 2. PURPOSE.
It is the purpose of this Act to develop and implement a comprehensive and coordinated national weather modification policy and a national cooperative Federal and State program of weather modification research and development.




(4) WEATHER MODIFICATION- The term `weather modification' means changing or controlling, or attempting to change or control, by artificial methods the natural development of atmospheric cloud forms or precipitation forms which occur in the troposphere.

{End Excerpt}



Why the troposphere? Is that because that is where the chemtrails are??????

[SocraticTruths]

100. It's as if some "chemmies" want to portray the Frankensteinian geoengineering as kooky tinfoil

I have heard that Scott Stevens has in the past set forth ideas about Japanese mafias involved in weather wars. I have just come across an update by him.

A Shift of Focus Published on 03 March, 2007
http://www.weatherwars.info/index.php?news_id=80&start=0&category_id=8&parent_id=8&arcyear=&arcmonth=

Scott Stevens' quotes:

"Something much larger and more important than the manipulation of the environment is already upon us, and will soon overtake those souls who remain unaware of its grandness.

The Shift of the Ages has begun. The spiral of this epoch of time has nearly reached its completion."


"What percentage of global warming is induced by man’s use of the atmosphere as a dumping ground for waste, as the CO2/global warming camp would have us believe, and how much is a natural part of the processional cycle?"

"Discoveries of ET DNA intermixed with human DNA. Your ability to change your own DNA with focused intent and emotion. This is very cool stuff! "

" For all those who fear they won’t get their dose of weather information, all of that will still be included. I  feel, however, that the obviousness of the weather manipulation is now so great that I need/want to shift focus to the next issue which is far more important and also will so deeply affect each and every one of us.
 

Stick around--it is about to get very exciting for those who hunger and choose to DO SOMETHING to bring on a better world for everyone."




The tinfoil by association marches on.

[seemslikeadream]

101. Could anyone post pictures of chemtrails

pre, let's say 1990?

[SocraticTruths]

103. That's the working psy-op

There is one internet character who is notorious for posting such pictures and claiming that they look the same as chemtrails. There was one "chemmie" at a site I was at who did the same thing. You have this running astroturf that chemtrails are the result of contrails mixing with industrial pollution.

The end results of the chemtrailing can appear as sulfate haze. If one looks at a volcano erupting, they can see a similar colour. There was a problem in America a bit back called acid rain.

But evidently due to concern over this, sulfate specifications were placed on aircraft emissions.
The military are the only people exempt from these rules. I can try to track down this information. I have seen documents showing this to be true.

[SocraticTruths]

105. A website which may help those new to this topic:

http://www.airapparent.ca/


A critique of the show by:
By Dr. Stephen C. L'Hommedieu, D.C.
March 4, 2007
NewsWithViews.com

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL CHEMTRAIL COVERAGE
http://www.newswithviews.com/public_comm/public_commentary47.htm

[SocraticTruths]

106. All Aircraft Are Not Involved!!!!!!!!!!

I've been off-line a bit, it felt good. Today was another sick bombardment by non-commercial aircraft here near Boston. Even the corner grocer knows something is up. He doesn't think it is anything bad, in fact he seems to think it is just military rookies and whatnot having fun in the skies, and that they have different fuel. The military does have different, classified fuel. They wouldn't cough any up for the Discovery Channel. I think the fuel is involved, but that so are contrail generating inventions. There should be a gap between the plane and when contrails start. These planes, I am not seeing any gap.

Anyway, even the old corner grocer guy says he does see these certain planes mucking up the skies. When it comes to doing anything about it, he sounds cynical, like what are we the people gonna do, call up some alphabet group and tell them we think there is some type of illegal geoengineering going on above us? I am not so cynical. The psy-ops try to make it seem that this is a crazy thing, thinking there are chemtrails. But the truth is right above us. Anyone who doesn't think something fishy is going on above us, I am sorry, but they fit the definition of blind sheep. This will eventually become public. It only won't if for some reason it just stops. Then it will be in the history books eventually, just like with the fascists today. Gonzales, Bush, Cheney, Viet Dinh, Condolizard, Rumsfeld, all these stooges might escape jail, but eventually they will be acknowledged as the cretins they are.

You'd think someone other than Paul Moyer of KNBC Los Angeles would do news reports on this. That Operation Mockingbird must be a real bitch.

There are friggin too many people in the media, wherever who are sick cowards unwilling to look beyond their own material existence and try to bring the truth to we the people and then to the power.

None of these people have any guts. Even Olbermann just comes up with the Murrow style of exposing after it has been exposed. The only reason we love Olbermann is because none of the others even do this Olbermann minimum.

Steve Biko got the job done. Mandela. Mother Theresa, Lady Di, Howard Zinn.

I hate the chemtrails. If it was for the common good, it would be legal and out in the open. But they are not good for us or the planet, so they play some psy-op game, put millions into fake internet postings.

Just remember good people. They are having trouble hurdling social and legal implications. Most people know it is getting strange in the skies. No crazy internet psy-op can continually cover up for their crap activities going on above us.