Israel begins building barrier

[Herschel]

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7070043%255E1702,00.html

"BULLDOZERS cleared land east of Jerusalem today as Israel moved ahead with the construction of a new segment of its barrier through the West Bank, shrugging off criticism from both the Palestinians and the US.

Israel says the planned barrier - 595 kilometres of fences, trenches, razor wire and concrete walls - is a defensive measure designed to keep Palestinians militants from crossing into Israel to carry out attacks."

Very good. Increasing her security is a good step.

[On the Road]

1. I *Wish* Israel Would Build a Wall

between Israel and Palestine, not between the part of Palestine they're trying to occupy indefinitely and the part they don't care about.

[StandWatie]

2. I wouldn't even care about that so much..

it's wrapping the wall around them on the Jordanian side that is truely villianous.

[rini]

3. Wall

I guess I didn't understand your posting. Is Jordon building a wall? A diagrm or map might help me understand what you are saying.

[Aidoneus]

5. ...

That red thing on the right side of Palestine Jail, and the dotted blue thing that continues south.

[rini]

7. wall

Thank you very much.

[The Magistrate]

6. The Totality Of the Project, Sir

Imagines a security zone on the near bank of the Jordan occupied by Israeli forces, that is similarly to be walled off from Arab Palestinian infiltration. It is not much publicized, but definitely on the "wish list" for this project.

[sushi]

28. So do I.

x

[rini]

4. Wall

A sad but necessary security need.

[LeftCoast]

8. I would be interested in hearing if even one Israeli lost their home

or business building this wall, or is it all just Palestinians who are being uprooted...

[jos]

9. I think the answer is obvious

The security rationale for the wall is a handy rationale for grabbing more land, only Palestinian land.

[sushi]

30. What do you think?

One guess.

[mmm]

10. Land Grab pure and simple

[rini]

11. Unfortunately

nothing in the Middle East is pure and simple. I wish this wall were not necessary but because of terrorism it is.

[StandWatie]

12. like it's that important

No way would you think walling in Jews in green line Israel was acceptable no matter how many acts of "terrorism" they committed and given the tiny percentage of people killed by terrorists it would be dismissed as a flimsy pretext driven by anti-semitism.

[sushi]

31. That wall is not the answer

pure and simple. I'm afraid you're wrong if you think that wall is going to stop terrorism. I'm afraid you're wrong if you think that wall is the beginning of true peace in Israel.

To be honest, with the current leaderships I think the two sides will never come to an agreement. Maybe if Shimon Peres, and his Labour Party, gets back in power..

[madrchsod]

13. if i remember

there once was a great wall built to keep the other tribes out. it was so large centuries later mankind could see it from space. so did the wall serve it`s master -no. in the 1930`s another wall was built to keep the invader out,that too failed because the enemy went around it.not understanding that walls do little good another one was built. for years people died to cross this wall. the wall became a symbol for the corruption behind it. then the people rose up and the that wall also fell. now another nation is building a wall to keep the enemy out and this wall too shall fail. to build walls against your neighbor means you don`t believe in peace but war. the soul of a people and of a country becomes a prisoner of its own wall. the folly of mankinds walls repeats itself over and over,and no doubt when we are all gone another nation will build another wall........

[StandWatie]

14. ..

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Building a wall

Doesn't mean YOU believe in war and not peace. It means you think YOUR NEIGHBOR believes in war and not peace.

The three instances of the walls include holding back the Mongol hordes and holding back the Germanic ones. Only in the case of Berlin was the wall designed to hold people in.

[chesley]

16. Good Fences make Good Neighbors

i think it was Frost. When you build a wall to keep them in, it's a prison. When you build a wall to keep them out, it's home.

[StandWatie]

18. You do know they are going to wall them in..

Without a doubt they could leave but no way in hell would they ever let them back in.

[chesley]

23. that's called

"walling them out". We seem to need a common terminology. "walling out" means you can't get in. "Walling in" means you can't get out.

[StandWatie]

35. very well then..

It will be "walling them in" although I assume there will be an airport or some mechanism to facilite them leaving the hellhole that will be created inside this ghetto with leaving left open only to whatever states might save them from starvation and death.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Since we're talking poetry...

"Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence."

Something that the Israeli govt hasn't considered...

but thanks for the tip. I'm about to make a really good neigbour out of the people next door by following Israels example and building my fence not on the property line, but right across their driveway and well into their property! I know they'll come to love me for it!!


Violet...

[StandWatie]

20. don't stop there..

bulldoze the house and seperate the family into a few cages and if any of them leave you lock the gate on it.

[chesley]

24. Sounds like

they tried to MURDER you to me.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Nope...

My neighbours, just like those Palestinian civilians affected by this wall being built on Palestinian land, were just minding their own business trying to earn a livelihood and survive. Of course after I'm through with them, Israeli govt style, I'm pretty sure they'll want to murder me, so there goes yr 'good neighbours' theory...

Violet...

[sushi]

29. Very funny, if it wasn't so sad...

Maybe we could try it too. I could do with more back garden.

[newyorican]

17. Building the wall on your neighbors land...

means you believe in perpetual war.

[Herschel]

21. You again

Have you forgotten why the wall? To deter terror. It is built there to demonstrate the price of terror and strengthen Israel's position for the disputed territories.

[newyorican]

22. Yes, me again...

What purpose does a wall between the WB and Jordan accomplish?

[StandWatie]

34. you have created Transkei

I hope to god no one ever recognizes any of these abominations other than Israel.

[jos]

33. If that were the sole reason

There wouldn't be the land theft.

And if the Palestinian land is "disputed territories," so is the Israeli land. If a Palestinian made that statement, you'd have a fit. But you have no problem making the statement about the Palestinian land. See the problem?

[Herschel]

36. The security of the settlements must be considered.

Also with an eye for negotiation of borders.

[The Magistrate]

37. Security For The Inhabitants Of The Settlements, Sir

Would be much better contrived by their return to Israel proper, within the boundaries of that state prior to the '67 war. Indeed, that would be best for all concerned, and increase the security of not only the people of Israel, but of Arab Palestine as well.

[tinnypriv]

39. Where do you think the capital of this "Arab Palestine" is going to be?

Israel and the United States just gave the finger to the Palestinians and told them Abu Dis is off limits, never mind East Jerusalem.

[StandWatie]

40. nowhere..

because none of this is ever, ever, going to happen :shrug:

[The Magistrate]

50. The Boundaries Of Israel Prior To The '67 War, Mr. Priv

Did not include East Jerusalem.

The question of Jerusalem is indeed a deeply vexed one, and no solution is going to satisfy many people completely. The origional U.N. intention of an International City probably still provides the best framework for a workable compromise: each state might have an extra-territorial enclave within it, on the model of the old Peking Legation Quarter, to serve for its capital.

As has been suggested elsewhere, it is certainly possible no contiguous state of Arab Palestine may emerge from the present situation: that would be, to me, a most regretable outcome.

It does seem likely this wall will both be built, and become a defacto border, as it is currently projected.

[tinnypriv]

52. It was always the case that the Palestinians

Were never going to get all of East Jerusalem. There are just too many fanatics in Israel and the United States who would never give it up. But here is the significance of my comment:

Up until very recently, Israel's negotiating position was that some sovereignty over the Arab parts of East Jerusalem would be granted to the Palestinian state, but Abu Dis (slighty south and eastern), would be the actual capital - it would be renamed to fool the Pal population. The Parliament building is actually built there etc. Now, Israel has told the Palestinians two NEW things:

1. You're not having any of East Jerusalem.
2. You're not having Abu Dis either.

This backs up the US vote at the UN for the first time recognising the annexation of East J by Israel as legitimate.

How much clearer does it have to be? There will be no UN involvement or any of that nonsense - Israel is keeping it all, forever.

Facts on the ground, facts on the ground ecetera ecetera.

Instead of calling for the Palestinians to "surrender", you should instead be decrying this wall move east of Jerusalem as the biggest set-back for peace in years. And for that, the United States is 100% absolutely responsible.

BTW, as I'm sure you know. this has f*** all to do with "security", and the articles in Israel don't even PRETEND that. You see wailing about "demographics", but not much else.

[The Magistrate]

55. There Is Something To What You Say, Mr. Priv

This is an apt illustration of how each renewed spasm of violence serves only to diminish the prospects of the people of Arab Palestine. A settlement on the terms on offer before the current period of hostilities would have included signifigant portions of Jerusalem: what is on offer now does not. If fighting continues, prospects for satisfying the legitimate aspirations of the people of Arab Palestine will diminish further. Political leadership in Arab Palestine ought to have noticed this pattern long ago, and acted accordingly.

We are in agreement that much of this may be irreversible, and probably as well in viewing that as regretable. It is not my desire, Sir, to see a peace of victory in this matter, but rather one of compromise, that can be satisfactory to the mass of both peoples involved.

[Herschel]

42. We will disagree

Such a retreat would embolden terrorists and compromise Israel's position in land negotiation. There will be no such return.

[Darranar]

45. It won't embolden terrorists at all...

If they lose any support they might have within segments of the Palestinian population, the terrorists are doomed. Ending the occupation and removing the settlements would cause just that.

[StandWatie]

46. scratch that..

[The Magistrate]

51. Then There Will Be No Peace, Mr. Herschel

Such intransigence in regard to lands overrun in '67 is a mirror to such intransigence on the question of repatriation by the other side: insistence on either is, in fact, insistence on prolonging the current conflict, as in each case, the other side is bound to refuse agreement to the proposition, which therefore could only be imposed by a peace of victory.

As regards land, there is really, at bottom, nothing to negotiate. Everything outside the Green Line boundary, excluding East Jerusalem, is part of the origional Arab Zone created by the U.N. partition of '47. The Palestine Authority would be well within its rights, just as the Yushiv was in '48, if tomorrow it declared the existance and independence of a sovereign state of Arab Palestine encompassing all land once part of Mandatory Palestine and beyond the Green Line, again excluding East Jerusalem, regardless of its present inhabitants in cases where these are Israelis resident on lands either purchased or confiscated from Arab Palestinian owners.

The nearest thing to a neccessary question for land negotiation is some corridor connecting Gaza to the Jordan valley, in compensation for which some small adjustment might be made for Israel in the Green Line boundaries. Israel may well desire, as well, to negotiate some some further adjustments to that line in exchange for mineral land in the Negev. But neither of these questions are fundamental to the question of legal status in the lands overrun in '67: Israel has no legal claim to a particle of those, and holds them by no right save that of conquest. No sophistry can alter that, and as some here might eagerly point out to you, that is a field and an expertise familiar to me.

[Herschel]

53. However

Israel has come into pocession of territory as the result of defensive wars. Land beyond the Green Line is very much in dispute and the ultimate settlement will most certainly be for an Israel greater than the Green Line. I suggest to you peace will indeed be difficult, no, impossible, if the Palestinians do not recognize the Green Line is a boudary of the past, never to return. The settlements and Israeli political realities make such a retreat unthinkable.

[The Magistrate]

54. Not Good Enough, Mr. Herschel

There is no dispute whatever about the status of the lands outside the Green Line: they are unequivocally no legal part of Israel. Whether a war is defensive or aggressive or simply conducted for the exercise and sheer sport of it makes no difference to the inadmissibility nowadays of conquest for conveying legitimate title. Israeli political realities do not make the removal of settlements impossible: only a small claque demands them; the great mass of the people are indifferent to or opposed to them, and can be led to what is best for their nation by leadership disposed to do so.

[Darranar]

44. Completely agreed.

n/t

[jos]

38. Killing two birds with one stone wall?

So to speak.

[Herschel]

41. Agreed

Very good.

[newyorican]

25. The Aparthied Wall

will turn the remaining palestinian lands into the worlds largest open-air prison system. The land outside of the wall is annexed *immediately* and never to be returned.

The Eastern wall, in particular, is a defacto annexation of the entire WB and cuts the Palestinian population off from the rest of the world. Over 35% of the land including water and agricultural resources are also on the "wrong side" of the wall. The only option for Palestinians will be to leave. Their choices will be if they leave walking or in a coffin.

This is ethnic cleasing on a grand scale, but also on the installment plan. It's also behavior from a so-called nation-state that I want nothing at all to do with. It's time to divest and disengage.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dudeness]

32. I do not enter into I/P debate very often

as it seems to invoke often irrational, vitriolic debate from all protagonists..that is not be unexpected due the events that have and are occurring..to me the building of this wall will not only segregate Israeli and Palestinian but will only further divide opinion outside of the region..thus further diminishing already remote chances of a peaceful political settlement..

[Darranar]

43. Anyone have data...

on how many Palestinians are going to be greatly and negatively effected by this? I've already seen how many settlements are enclosed within the "security barrier."

[tinnypriv]

47. Probably in the tens of thousands

If it expands east to Jericho, which it is going to do of course.

Get this for a joke: the wall is going to run less than 100 metres away from the Palestinian parliament building in Abu Dis. If current plans are accurate, it will also cut the neighbourhoods near to that off from it and they'll end up being effectively inside Israel.

All this in "secret" of course. I think that must be a code-word Israel uses so that no newspaper actually explains the significance of what Israel is doing. Not one western source has even mentioned the little tit-bit about the Parliament for instance.

[sushi]

48. Wish I knew

but here is an interesting read.

http://www.yellowtimes.com/article.php?sid=1533&mode=thread&order=0

I'm totally disgusted.

[StandWatie]

49. all of them..

Ruining a few more farms and cutting people off from travel is routine in the West Bank. The real suffering will come when the thing is complete and the people inside are locked in.