Israel's U.S. ambassador: No one will dictate Israel's borders

[Tripmann]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-s-u-s-ambassador-no-one-will-dictate-israel-s-borders-1.320066

Israel's ambassador to the United States Michael Oren told reporters on Tuesday that Israel would not allow anyone to dictate its borders.

"Like Ben-Gurion, Netanyahu will not allow the United Nations, or any other organization, to dictate our borders. They will be determined through negotiations," he said in Washington during an event at the Chamber of commerce celebrating 25 years since the establishment of the Free Trade agreement between the U.S. and Israel.

In September, Israel entered into U.S.-sponsored direct peace negotiations with the Palestinians, which subsequently broke down in the wake of the expiration of a temporary Israeli moratorium on construction in West Bank settlements. As part of the negotiations, Palestinian negotiators have demanded the establishment of a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders.



In other words, thanks for the free country UN, now fuck off and mind your own business while we steal as much extra territory as we want.

So israels ambassador to the people moderating the peace process is talking like this, israels foreign minister is contradicting israels Prime minister at the UN, and israels prime minister refuses to stop illegally snatching palestinian land. I think we can see how serious the nethenyahu coalition is about peace.

The PA should go to the UN NOW for a resolution on the illegality of the settlements and to declare a state along the 1967 borders.

[GodlessBiker]

1. That's kinda funny, considering how the modern state of Israel was born.

[aranthus]

2. Why? Do you believe that the UN "created" Israel? n/t

[azurnoir]

10. the UN "merely" aided in Israel's birth

Jewish reaction

The Jewish Agency criticized the UNSCOP majority proposal concerning Jerusalem, saying that the Jewish section of modern Jerusalem (outside the Walled City) should be included in the Jewish State.<72> During his testimony Ben Gurion indicated that he accepted the principle of partition, but stipulated: "To partition," according to the Oxford dictionary, means to divide a thing into two parts. Palestine is divided into three parts, and only in a small part are the Jews allowed to live. We are against that."<73>

The majority of the Jewish groups, and the Jewish Agency subsequently announced their acceptance of the proposed Jewish State, and by implication the proposed international zone, and Arab State. However, it had been stipulated that the implementation of the plan did not make the establishment of one state or territory dependent on the establishment of the others.<74>

A minority of extreme nationalist Jewish groups like Menachem Begin's Irgun Tsvai Leumi and the Lehi (known as the Stern Gang), which had been fighting the British, rejected the plan. Begin warned that the partition would not bring peace because the Arabs would also attack the small state and that "in the war ahead we'll have to stand on our own, it will be a war on our existence and future".<75>

Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended to the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention November 29 (the date of this session) as the most important date in Israel's acquisition of independence, and many Israeli cities commemorate the date in their streets' names. However, Jews did criticize the lack of territorial continuity for the Jewish state.

Mehran Kamrava says Israeli sources often cite Jewish acceptance and Arab rejection of the U.N. partition plan as an example of the Zionists' desire for peaceful diplomacy and the Arabs' determination to wage war on the Jews. But he notes that more recent documentary analysis and interpretation of events leading up to and following the creation of the state of Israel fundamentally challenged many of the "myths" of what had actually happened in 1947 and 1948."<76> Simha Flapan wrote that it was a myth that Zionists accepted the UN partition and planned for peace, and that it was also a myth that Arabs rejected partition and launched a war.<77>

Chaim Weizmann commented on outside Arab interference with earlier partition proposals. He noted that Arab states, like Egypt and Iraq, had no legal standing in Palestinian affairs.<78> During the 1947 General Assembly Special Session on Palestine "The Egyptian representative explained, in reply to various statements, that the Arab States did not represent the Palestinian Arab population."<79> Avi Plascov says that the Arab countries had no intention of permitting the Palestinians a decisive role in the war or establishing a Palestinian state. He notes that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) could not carry out its decisions and could not count on local Palestinian support.<80>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

This page was last modified on 6 October 2010 at 01:29.

[aranthus]

11. There's nothing here to show that the UN aided anything.

Just the opposite. As Begin pointed out, the Jews had to stand on their own and win a war for their existence. If UN helped at all, then it did so in only a very small way. The French helped create the United States to a far greater degree than the UN aided Israel. That doesn't give the French a say in what the US does (they may have a say for other reasons, but not because they helped create the country).

[azurnoir]

13. so the proposal of a Jewish state had nothing to do with it, if you say so n/t

[aranthus]

14. I didn't say that it had nothing to do with it.

I said that it had very little to do with it. Would Israel have been created without the Partition Resolution? Almost certainly. Would it have been harder to do? Perhaps a little. UN resolutions are good for propaganda, which the Israelis could use. That's about it. The UN didn't partition anything, create anything, give anything to anyone, or authorize anything. It can't.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. There's a very recent thread where another DUer was claiming the UN created a Palestinian state

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=335016&mesg_id=335266

We agreed in that thread that while the UN doesn't create states, after a new state has declared its indpendence, recognition by other states definately helps the legitimacy of the new state...

[aranthus]

20. You're correct on all points.

However, it is ultimately recognition by individaual national governments, and not the UN that counts. support at the UN doesn't hurt, and can have helpful propaganda effects, but I don't think that it is decisive.

[azurnoir]

18. If it was so little then why this

Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended to the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention November 29 (the date of this session) as the most important date in Israel's acquisition of independence, and many Israeli cities commemorate the date in their streets' names. However, Jews did criticize the lack of territorial continuity for the Jewish state.

[aranthus]

19. Because anyone can post anything to wikipedia without providing a source.

There's to citation for this statement in the Wikipedia article. That being said, it is probable that many Jews at the time believed that the Partition Plan represented world recognition of the Jews' right to a state. That doesn't change the facts on the ground. It doesn't mean that the Partition Plan had much, if any, practical effect.

[azurnoir]

21. so are you claiming the statement is a lie you seem to speak out of both sides -again

your title line says one thing and then you qualify it in the post, do you like others here seem to think that "leftists" only read the title line?

[azurnoir]

12. delete wrong place n/t

[aranthus]

3. He could have said anyting, and you still would have written:

"In other words, thanks for the free country UN, now fuck off and mind your own business while we steal as much extra territory as we want."

By the way, do you really believe that the UN "gave" Israel to the Jews?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aranthus]

5. No, it's just that you're so consistent in your attacks on Israel,

and what you wrote didn't follow from what the Ambassador actually said. So it seemed clear that it didn't matter what he said. In any event, do you really believe that the UN "gave" Israel to the Jews? I'm pretty sure that the Ambassador doesn't believe that,so once again you're putting words in his mouth when you claim that he meant, "thanks for the free country UN, now fuck off and mind your own business while we steal as much extra territory as we want."

[Tripmann]

7. So, you can paraphrase what I haven't typed, but I can't paraphrase stuff thats already been said?

:rofl:

[aranthus]

9. Where did I paraphrase you?

Didn't you write, "In other words, thanks for the free country UN, now fuck off and mind your own business while we steal as much extra territory as we want."
Didn't you mean to attribute that to Ambassador Oren? If not, then why even write it?

And yes, you can't paraphrase what someone says by way of completely mistating what they said. At least you can't do that and be considered honest or serious.

So enough deflection. Do you believe that the UN gave Israel to the Jews (which is the obvious assumption behind your "paraphrase" of the Ambassador, or not?

[Tripmann]

15. We all know the story of how israel came to be. Its just a pity having a country isn't enough

[whosinpower]

6. Do you honestly think the UN would do this?

Doing so would require a UN military force reside in the West Bank. I am not sure the UN could accomplish this....it would mean war. Without a military force to enforce the borders....what would this change?

The US would not agree to this.....

While I agree that the peace process/settlement is not moving at all like we would like it to see - for both parties, I am unconvinced that this action would materialize into something that would force the parties back at the table.

There is another way around this....Abbas could say that the PA will acknowledge the jewish state of Israel after all the final negotiations are complete....and the settlements must unilaterally, completely and totally halt until all final status negotiations are done. No timeline. No partial 60 day freeze....no building at all until everything is done, ratified, signed, sealed and delivered. In this way - Netanyahu must bend, and so must Abbas.

[damntexdem]

8. Certainly not decency nor international law.

The Israeli government and rightwing whackos are doing their level best to ensure that the only viable solution would be to destroy the state of Israel. That would be a tragedy, but it is a tragedy that has been and continues to be created by Israeli governments.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

16. Translation: Israel will dictate Palestine's borders. N.T.