1st Gaza mall attracts thousands

[shira]

1st Gaza mall attracts thousands

Despite siege, new shopping center in Strip opened its doors last Saturday to enthusiastic crowds, offering international brands, much-needed air-conditioning. Mall's manager promises affordable prices tailored for local residents

Ali Waked
Published: 07.20.10, 16:24

While Hamas continues to demand a full lifting of the blockade, the Gaza market seems to be doing alright. Gaza Mall, the first ever shopping center in the Strip was opened last Saturday with masses storming the new attraction.

The two-floor compound, each stretching over roughly 9,700 sq. ft, offers international brands as well as much-needed air conditioning. Tens of thousands of shoppers from Rafah to Beit Hanoun have already visited the site within a matter of days, making the center Gaza's new craze.

"Not everyone comes to shop. There are those who are curious who just come to see the place and others who come for the air conditioning," one of the mall's workers said. Head of the mall's board of directors, Salah a-Din Abu Abdo, told Ynet the center attracts more and more visitors every day.

We make a point of providing attractive and competitive prices in order to take on the outside markets," he said. "Our goal is to develop a marketing and leisure culture among the residents of the Strip who for years have been subjected to a blockade. If profit was our only objective, than this investment would have been planned differently with more shops in other price ranges."

more...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3922441,00.html

I could've sworn Gaza wasn't getting any building materials for homes, but they have enough for a luxury mall? :shrug:

[aquart]

1. You object to them having some luxury in their lives? I don't.

And air conditioning is a wonderful thing. Makes people happy instead of mean and irritable.

I hope to God Hamas is getting massive kickbacks from this mall. I don't want anything to happen to it.

[shira]

6. No, the more luxury and less suffering the better. I'm against BS media reports of a humanitarian..

....crisis, no materials for rebuilding, etc.

The siege was eased only weeks ago, so it's obvious the mall was being built before the flotilla incident while the siege was still 'strict'.

All the following pictures show the same thing...
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001127.html

So what's really happening here? :eyes:

[Chulanowa]

8. Oh hey, there are more than four pictures

That kid so does not want to be in that fright wig, either.

Also, you might want to look up what "humanitarian crisis" means. I don't think you understand the term very well. Rampant cannibalism is not a prerequisite.

[shira]

12. Let's see if you can agree that if there's a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, it's worse in Turkey...

"Infant mortality is one of the most important indicators in gauging a humanitarian situation. And according to the data, Turkey is in worse shape than Gaza.

Infant mortality in Gaza is 17.71 per thousand; in Turkey it is 24.84. The Gaza Strip is in a much better situation than the global average, which is 44 infants per 1,000 births. It is also better than most of the Arab countries and several South American countries, and is certainly better than Africa.

Life expectancy is another important indicator. And here, life expectancy in Turkey is 72.23, whereas in the Gaza Strip it is 73.68, much higher than the global average of 66.12. In comparison, life expectancy is 63.36 in Yemen, 52.52 in Sudan and 50 in Somalia. These countries are crying out for international attention, for aid, for any rescue ship. But none come.

Regarding population growth, the Gaza Strip is ranked sixth, with a growth rate of 3.29 percent per annum. This may not be an indicator for quality of life, but it seems that the high rate of growth, along with the high life expectancy and the low infant mortality rate, attests to one thing: There is no hunger, no humanitarian crisis and tales of 1,001 nights from 1,001 human rights organizations.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=181118

Turkey's in worse shape than Gaza, right Ace?

[Chulanowa]

26. "Hey, look over there!"

Alright Shira, you want to play with numbers. First off, that fellow writing an op-ed for the Jpost needs to revisit his data. He got the life expectancy right, but he messed up the infant mortality rate (it appears he got his data from Wikipedia.) According to the World bank and the CIA fact book, the infant mortality rate in Turkey is actually 19.92. In the Palestinian territories, it is 23.6. This data is from the World Bank's World Development Indicators. In just the Gaza strip, it is 18.35 (according to the CIA world factbook; the world bank doesn't separate the West Bank and Gaza).

Now, here's a problem, Shira... Why are we comparing Gaza (or Gaza and the West Bank) to Turkey? They share a dominant religion, but there's not much else they have in common. Here in the United States, we usually compare our numbers to those people most similar to our own nation; usually Canada, sometimes the United Kingdom. We don't fly out to Guatemala to draw comparisons. It seems to me that comparing the Palestinian territories to Israel would make more sense. After all, in terms of environment, urbanization, even dietary preferences, Israel and the Palestinian territories aren't very different. Genetically, Palestinians and most Israelis are closer to each other than either are to the people of Turkey, as well.

Your author would never do such a thing though. Comparing Gaza / Palestine to Israel paints a terribly different picture than he's aiming for. Israel's infant mortality rate is 3.6. Its life expectancy is 81.

If Israel's population lost eleven years of life expectancy and infant mortality shot up by five hundred percent, are you telling me that it would just be another day at the office for you, Shira? Everything's fine, nothing to see here? Here in the states, we saw the infant mortality increase by two between 1995 and 2008, from 4.7 to 6.7. This was considered a crisis by the American medical establishment.

Now, perhaps you'd like to compare the Palestinian territories to the other Arab states, just to be fair to poor, beleaguered Israel, huh? Out of all the Arab states, only Iraq and Yemen have a higher infant mortality rate than the Palestinian territories. Yemen with 53, Iraq with 36. Yemen has been in the midst of a civil war since the 70's, and Iraq had the fun years of a genocidal warmongering tyrant followed by over a decade of sanctions apparently designed expressly to drive up the infant mortality rate, followed by a crippling and one-sided war from 2003-present. So they kind of have excuses for those kinds of numbers. Why then is Palestine #3 on the list of worst Arab places to be an infant? especially if, as you claim, everything there is sunshine and roses?

Now as for humanitarian crises... here's something to help you in understanding the term; http://www.google.com
It's a neat little tool. You type a string of words into the little box and hit "search" and it provides you with an offering of websites (and often images, videos, news, and whatnot) relevant to the string you searched for.
For instance, a search for "humanitarian crises" gives us numerous links. The top one is a Wikipedia entry that, while rather spartan, does convey the gist of what a humanitarian crisis is; "A humanitarian crisis (or "humanitarian disaster") is an event or series of events which represents a critical threat to the health, safety, security or wellbeing of a community or other large group of people, usually over a wide area. Armed conflicts, epidemics, famine, natural disasters and other major emergencies may all involve or lead to a humanitarian crisis."
We have a little news-video thing two selections below that that you may enjoy; Tom Gross tells us that "the media" is faking a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. You've already used him as a source several times, and he seems to frame most of your arguments for you, so I doubt you'd find anything new there, though.

Gaza - indeed, both portions of Palestine and Israel itself are regarded as a situation of humanitarian crisis by the Red Cross, due to the continual strife. It's simply at its most intense in Gaza due to the situation there; three years of blockade in a place that keeps getting bombed kind of makes already-present problems even more acute.

[shira]

28. Answer the question, please. Is Turkey in worse shape than Gaza?

Here's Al-Jazeera arguing Palestinians are worse off in the W.Bank than in Gaza...
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/201062916845576597.html

No blockade going on in the W.Bank, so what gives? :shrug:

======================

As for "hey, look over there" that's exactly what's happening when nations practicing GROSS human rights violations point the finger at Israel.

Most of Israel's harshest accusers are in that category. Take a look at the UNHRC with 70% of their resolutions being against Israel - and all their emergency sessions relating to Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel,_Palestine,_and_the_United_Nations#Claims_that_the_current_UN_Human_Rights_Council_is_anti-Israel

Not that you have a problem with that, I'm certain.

[Chulanowa]

38. No, Turkey isn't

It has a marginally higher infant mortality rate and a year less life expectancy. It's also more rural than Gaza and has a notably harsher climate. By every other rubric, Turkey is ahead of Gaza. It also has the benefit of not living under the guns of another nation (though with increased Israeli support for the PKK...).

And again, it is not a valid point anyway. For starters, there's really no basis of comparison between Turkey and the Gaza Strip. But more importantly, the logic of your argument is just fucking idiotic. Your argument is that because Gaza has a marginally lower death rate than Turkey, then there must not be a crisis situation in Gaza. Here's where that breaks down. By all standards of measurement - infant mortality, life expectancy, death rate, education, median age, environmental conditions, GDP both gross and per capita, Chad ranks below Sudan; So therefor there's no crisis in Sudan. Additionally, Afghanistan is far above either Chad or Sudan in all scales except education (where it's only marginally ahead). No problems in Afghanistan! And - oh boy - Iraq is over there, looking like fucking paradise next to Afghanistan. It really is the garden of Eden!

I could go through this all day, and end up making it look like Bangladesh is a top place to raise your family while Finland is the ass-canker of Satan himself. If your position is valid, then certainly mine is; Afghanistan is certainly worse-off compared to Iraq than Turkey is when compared to Gaza, so that must mean that Iraq is hunky-dory according to the logic you're using.

Of course, nobody is going to compare Peru to Mongolia, or Lesotho to Sweden, or Palau to the Isle of Man. Because there's no basis to compare them by. If you want to compare nations, you need to take a cluster of demographically and environmentally similar nations, otherwise your data is meaningless babble. Comparing Gaza or the west bank to Israel makes far more sense than comparing either to Turkey. Comparing them to Jordan, or Lebanon, or Egypt is also more valid than comparing them to Turkey. And yes, I suppose comparing them to Turkey is more valid than comparing them to Costa Rica.

The problem is, comparing Gaza to Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, Syria, the U.A.E., Kuwait, Bahrain, or even Iran doesn't get the result that you and the author want. And of course, comparing Gaza to Yemen or Iraq would be bad because you don't want to say that Gaza is comparable to two war-torn countries while trying to make the point that Gaza is just like Beverly Hills.

Really, you want to make the case for crisis in the West Bank? Well, okay. If you insist. I'm sure tomorrow you'll have forgotten all about it, though.

And your jabbering about the UN doesn't have relevancy to the topic. It's a red herring. But nice try :)

[shira]

41. Gaza should certainly be compared to other similar 3rd world dictatorships, especially Egypt.

Why does it make more sense to compare Gaza to Israel than Egypt?

And once again, as I've told you multiple times, I'm not claiming everything is peachy in Gaza. If you want to build and knock down strawman arguments, that's fine, but be aware there's probably no one who is pro-Israel who argues Gaza is paradise.

[Chulanowa]

57. I offered Egypt for comparison

I also offered Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Oman, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen as alternative comparisons. Except Yemen and Iraq, every single one of these nations is doing better than Gaza, and substantially better than the Palestinian Territories as a whole. Again, none of these nations provide the denialist narrative that you want to hear, so they've been ignored as candidates for comparison.

So why does Israel make an especially good comparison? Because as Israel's supporters are fond of pointing out, it's a pretty small geographical area. There's not a wide environmental variance between its locales; Haifa and Beersheba are pretty much the same, in terms of climate. The demographics are pretty much uniform as well. These are characteristics shared by Gaza; it's small, little environmental divergence in its locales, a largely urban populace that is demographically very similar to one another. And when you factor in that Gaza and Israel are basically the same place - part of this "tiny piece of land" the comparisons become especially valid.

And yes, you've told me this many times. I simply have no reason to believe you when you say it, Shira. You say lots of things, but what you actually do is what matters. You've also claimed to be anti-racist and a staunch critic of Israeli policy. You've never once demonstrated such tendencies, however. So when everything you post is denialist nonsense sourced back to blogs that are telling the readers that there are no problems in the Gaza Strip, your claims to the contrary look rather feeble.

[shira]

68. Compare conditions in Cairo, Egypt to Gaza.

Here's an Egyptian columnist who wrote recently about the Gaza siege...
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4427.htm

[Chulanowa]

77. Ah, MEMRI

How did I see that one coming?

"The report states: A kilo of watermelon in Gaza costs less than one Egyptian lira,"

Hold it, hold it; what the fuck is an "Egyptian lira?" Egypt's currency is the Pound (Gineih), divided into 1/100 units (Piastres; in Arabic, Qirsh) and 1/1000 units (Millième; in Arabic, Malleem).

now, I'm curious. I've known for a while that memri is a "make shit up" kind of operation that often has a very funny way of "translating" things, and really, i'd figure an Egyptian daily magazine would be able to get its country's currency right.

So I went looking for the article. I started of course, an the Ros al-Yussouf website. I searched each of their sections except "World Cup" and "Cartoons" for articles dated June 29, 2010. The article does not appear in any of them (google translate, if you're wondering, by the way).

well, okay, that's weird. So I search for the author on the site. Their search engine supports Roman characters (though the results are received in Arabic, of course.) "Egypt" of course received lots of results, as does "football." "Muhammad Hamadi" gets nothing; Okay, it could be that his name is Mohammad, or Muhamad or Muhamed or Hamaddi or Hamadey or any variation thereof; Arabic names don't always "work" with Roman characters (Ask Moamar, er, Muammar, er, Muhammar Kaddaffi, er, Qidafia, er, Ghaddafe)

So I go back to google and search for the guy. The first result for "Muhammad Hamadi" is a Lebanese terrorist convicted for the hijacking of TWA flight 847. Probably not the same guy, right? So, I search for "Muhammad Hamadi Ros al-Yusouf," figuring that hey, he's gotta have more than a few articles, right? Even if not, somebody's gotta know who he is.

The results are interesting. Nothing leads to the guy's article. What you find everywhere are the same - the exact same "excerpts" from the article that you provided from MEMRI. And no links. Nowhere is there any link to the article in question! In fact, if any source is ever cited, it goes straight back to MEMRI.

Additionally I find absolutely nothing about a journalist - or even op-ed writer named Muhammad Hamadi. if he indeed exists, the only thing he's ever written are the two paragraphs displayed by MEMRI.

Peculiar, no?

Just for completeness' sake, I tried several other search engines (dogpile turned into a shopping site? Wow) and got the same results. I was also completely unable to find the price listings from Hamas; in fact, searching for those gave me nothing but the same MEMRI article again!

Shira, you've been had. Why does this keep happening to you?

[oberliner]

90. Here is the original article in Arabic from Rose al-Yousef

http://www.rosaonline.net/Daily/News.asp?id=70677

The Google Translator does use pound rather than lira - otherwise it is not far off from the MEMRI translation.

Excerpt as translated by Google Translator:

The report says: A kilogram of watermelons in Gaza less than a pound of Egypt, while in Egypt more than two pounds, and reached a kilogram of tomatoes in Gaza less than a half pounds, while a kilogram of tomatoes in the Egyptian pound and a half pound, the price of potatoes in the Gaza Strip a half pounds per kilo, While the price of potatoes in Egypt two pounds per kilogram and a kilogram of onions in pounds Gaza, in Egypt and a half pounds, the pound, a kilogram of garlic in Gaza ten pounds, and in Egypt, 15 pounds per kilo.

<end of excerpt>

The author's name is translated via Google as Mohamed Hamdy and he has written numerous articles for Rose al-Yousef.

Here is a listing (in Arabic) of some of the many articles he has written:

http://www.rosaonline.net/Daily/Author.asp?ID=183

[Chulanowa]

92. Well holy shit

I bow before your google-fu.

[Chulanowa]

94. While i'm bowing to your google-fu, by the way...

How exactly did you pull that out ?I see the translated name is "Mohamed Hamdy" which, like I mentioned earlier, coulda been goddamned anything. I honestly was trying to find the thing.

I'm glad the article is authentic; I'm much rather read from the source, than an "except" carried by a hate site. Gives me the opportunity to see what else the article contains, if nothing else.

The article reveals that the prices compared are not only three years old, but hte (unsourced) Hamas article makes the point that it's comparing home-grown products in a place where supply is higher than demand, and a nation where demand is higher than supply. There's also the factor of transportation costs and overhead, and the plain possibility that Hamas is engaging in price-fixing.

I'm not going to go into the quality of the article. It seems to be claiming that the siege has made life easier for Gaza, but that could just be google translation not getting it right.

However, Egypt doesn't have anything to whine about, either. A kilogram of tomatoes in Egypt costs USD $0.08, according to this article, and a kilogram of potatoes costs USD $0.35. However, chicken and "meat" (I'm presuming beef; pork probably isn't a factor!) are both high above those in the United States; I take this to mean simply that Egypt does not have entire states dedicated to cattle. Still, a kilo of potatoes for thirty-five cents? Twenty-six cents for a kilo of onions? Goddamn.

It's enough to make a guy want to make a heap of skillet fries, isn't it?

[oberliner]

96. I found the article on the Rose al-Yousef website

I used Google Translate to translate the Rose al-Yousef website and found the article using the date supplied by the MEMRI version.

[Chulanowa]

97. I did the same thing, and never found it.

:shrug: What section was it under?

[oberliner]

99. It was under "Columns"

The sub-heading was "Diary of a Citizen."

I figured that since the MEMRI site referred to the author as a columnist, his article would probably be under one of the column categories.

[azurnoir]

9. another ProIsrael blog to "prove" there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza or propaganda

and here is an item you for some reason chose not to link

Last year, this website revealed to a Western audience pictures of the bustling, crowded food markets of Gaza that the Western media refuse to show you. Earlier this year, I reported the new Olympic-size swimming pool of Gaza (no shortage of building materials or water here) and the luxury restaurants, where you can “dine on steak au poivre and chicken cordon bleu”. (Over 300,000 people have viewed photos on that webpage since May, according to my website monitor.)

Now I want to draw attention to the fact that this morning, on the day that the EU again criticized Israel (but not Egypt) for supposedly oppressing Gazans, on a day when the BBC TV world news headlines again lead with a report about how “devastated the economy in Gaza is,” an impressive new shopping mall opened in Gaza (photos below, followed by a selection of other photos from Gaza).

Will those Western journalists who write stories about “starvation” in Gaza and compare it to a “concentration camp” report this?

Instead of reporting on the mall opening, the British-based international satellite broadcaster Sky News reported today “The humanitarian situation in Gaza remains dire.”

so what is UNRWA lying is that what we're supposed to believe or is it possible that maybe not every man wome and child in Gaza is poor

and here is a story on the pool from Maan

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=285242

your TGross website is right below that

but the question does remam where did the material come from hmmmmm

[shira]

13. No, this shows the validity of the claim that Gaza is a humanitarian "show".

....based on an industry of lies.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=181118

[azurnoir]

15. LOL except that your BS is not funny its disgusting n/t

[shira]

16. If it's BS, kindly explain why these positive situations in Gaza are routinely covered up.

How is it for 3 years, many people have been led to believe Gazans are starving when they're not?

[azurnoir]

19. The figures in your article are from the CIA factbook

did you not know that? so explain where thee CIA got its figures from, unless of course they are quite old and very possibly supplied by Israel

[shira]

20. You doubt any fact that doesn't fit the Israel-is-evil-all-the-time narrative.

[azurnoir]

25. wow did you realize that life expectancy is longer in Israel than the US?

81 years in Israel and 78 years US perhaps there is a reason to give Israel les aid we need it here

quick give Chuck Schumer a call :sarcasm:

[shira]

32. Israel must be putting something in those bagels to kill Americans before their time.

How else do you explain Americans not living as long as those Israelis?

:sarcasm:

[azurnoir]

35. ah yeah n/t

[Chulanowa]

40. Actually by your logic, it means that the US is in a deep humanitarian crisis

Deeper than Turkey for sure!

[shira]

42. And it's the Zionists fault, of course!

[Chulanowa]

59. How do you figure?

:popcorn:

[shira]

67. Why everything is the fault of Zionists! Duh.

[Chulanowa]

74. Do tell

:popcorn:

[polly7]

137. Chirp ................... nt.

[Jefferson23]

22. (1) Gaza’s Stunted Growth Problem

By THE NEW YORK TIMES

Marwa Farag, a research fellow with the Dubai Initiative at Harvard Kennedy School’s Belfer Center, flagged the following item:

A recent report published in the Lancet medical journal showed that “the trend for stunting among Palestinian children is increasing, and that there is a concern about the long-term effects.” The report shows that there are pockets in northern Gaza where the level of stunted growth among children reaches thirty percent. Stunting, which is caused by chronic malnutrition and affecting cognitive development and physical health, poses a serious threat to normal childhood development and may cause severe health problems for children in the future. The report’s conclusions that the main reasons for the ailing Palestinian health system are the occupation, the recent conflict in Gaza, and inter-Palestinian fighting stress the need for an honest assessment of the health situation within the context of broader Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.

Thus, the Israeli government’s dismissal of the report as “propaganda in the guise of a medical report” is disheartening. Measuring stunted growth among children represents objective health data collection. Regardless of partisan persuasions, the percentage of Palestinian children who now suffer from stunted growth remains ten percent. Dismissing the report as one-sided does not change the medical facts on the ground, which clearly indicate that the Palestinian population in Gaza is facing a dangerous and worsening health situation, one that certainly has implications on any future prospects for peace.

Link: http://www.thelancet.com/series/health-in-the-occupied-...

Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7924199.stm


http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/21/gazas-stunte...


(2) Gaza: Treading on Shards
Sara Roy
February 17, 2010

"Do you know what it's like living in Gaza?" a friend of mine asked. "It is like walking on broken glass tearing at your feet."

On January 21, fifty-four House Democrats signed a letter to President Obama asking him to dramatically ease, if not end, the siege of Gaza. They wrote:

The people of Gaza have suffered enormously since the blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt following Hamas's coup, and particularly following Operation Cast Lead.... The unabated suffering of Gazan civilians highlights the urgency of reaching a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and we ask you to press for immediate relief for the citizens of Gaza as an urgent component of your broader Middle East peace efforts.... Despite ad hoc easing of the blockade, there has been no significant improvement in the quantity and scope of goods allowed into Gaza.... The crisis has devastated livelihoods, entrenched a poverty rate of over 70%, increased dependence on erratic international aid, allowed the deterioration of public infrastructure, and led to the marked decline of the accessibility of essential services.

This letter is remarkable not only because it directly challenges the policy of the Israel lobby--a challenge no doubt borne of the extreme crisis confronting Palestinians, in which the United States has played an extremely damaging role--but also because it links Israeli security to Palestinian well-being. The letter concludes, "The people of Gaza, along with all the peoples of the region, must see that the United States is dedicated to addressing the legitimate security needs of the State of Israel and to ensuring that the legitimate needs of the Palestinian population are met." http://www.thenation.com/article/gaza-treading-shards


Sara Roy: Sara Roy is an American political scientist and scholar. She is a Senior Research Scholar at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard University.

Roy's research and over 100 publications focus on the Economy of Gaza and more recently on the Palestinian Islamic movement.<1> Reviewing her 2007 Failing Peace: Gaza and the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict, Bruce Lawrence writes that "Roy is the leading researcher and most widely respected academic authority on Gaza today."<2> She has also studied Palestinian politics and the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Roy


(3) Even Fox News is not characterizing the Mall as life is peachy in Gaza:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4287483/gazas-new-shopping-mall?playlist_id=86857

Text: snip* .." doesn't necessarily mean that things are looking up, " new Mall is not a sign of progress, unemployment still at 50%.
UN states majority of Gazan's live on $2 a day. No construction materials for rebuilding... A woman tells reporter she comes to the Mall
because she has no electricity nor air conditioning. So many live on such a low salary, not many will be shopping at the Mall."

(4) UNICEF

Occupied Palestinian Territory, Humanitarian Action Report 2010


Critical Issues for Children and Women

The Occupied Palestinian Territory is still reeling from the spill-over effects of years of conflict and from multiple political and economic crises in 2009, particularly in Gaza where January’s military incursions destroyed social services infrastructure and homes. Due to an Israeli blockade and an increase in restrictions on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip, families are increasingly finding themselves without reliable access to basic health and nutrition care services, safe drinking water or sufficient sanitation facilities, all of which are on the verge of collapse. The humanitarian needs of those living in East Jerusalem and the West Bank are also becoming more acute because of water scarcity as sources are closed off to establish settlements and military zones.

http://origin-www.unicef.org/har2010/index_opt.php





(5) The author of your OP, Ben-Dror Yemini, who claims there is only a "humanitarian show." In case no one is familiar with him, he wrote of Goldstone back in 2009.

GOLDSTONE IS THE CRIMINAL

http://www.mideasttruth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9409

[shira]

23. Statistics prove the situation is worse in Turkey, but no one claims a humanitarian crisis there.

Why is that?

:shrug:

Also, there's a malnutrition problem in Israel's hospitals....
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/nearly-half-of-israeli-hospital-patients-at-risk-for-malnutrition-1.260810

That's Hamas' fault, right?

[Jefferson23]

33. The situation is exactly what it is currently in Gaza via multiple

credible sources, period. As for Turkey, you'll need to write the author of the OP you posted and ask him why he did
not qualify his claims...perhaps that is because, he can't.

UNICEF



Turkey encouraged by UNICEF report on maternal and newborn health

snip* ANKARA, Turkey, 19 January 2009 – UNICEF’s flagship publication, ‘The State of the World’s Children 2009’, received a warm welcome in Turkey, where it was recently unveiled by UNICEF Representative Reza Hossaini.

This year’s report concentrates on the closely linked issues of maternal and newborn health. Over the last two decades, Turkey has achieved rapid reductions in its under-five and maternal mortality rates.

In his opening remarks, Mr. Hossaini congratulated the government and people of Turkey on their success.

“Unfortunately, lots of children and women around the world, confronted with war or with the cycle of poverty and disease, do not have the same opportunities and privileges as in Turkey,” he said.


Integrated programmes are working


The Ankara leg of the report’s worldwide launch was also attended by Minister of Health Recep Akdag, members of Parliament, public officials, academics, civil society representatives, UNICEF staff and journalists.

Among those who sent messages were Speaker of Parliament Köksal Toptan, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and four government ministers, including Minister of State responsible for Women and the Family Nimet Çubukçu and Minister of National Education Hüseyin Çelik.

Health Minister Akdag attributed the improvement in child and maternal mortality in Turkey to a range of preventive health programmes pursued “very actively and in a spirit of integration.”

Mother and child care


Turkey has allocated increased financial, human and physical resources for mother and child care, particularly in underdeveloped regions and rural areas. As a result, there have been fewer deaths among mothers and infants.

Dr. Akdag expressed confidence that the under-five mortality rate – 23 deaths for every 1,000 live births in 2007 – would fall to single digits within 5 to 10 years.

http://www.unicef.org/sowc/Turkey_47291.html

[shira]

34. People suffer everywhere, including within Israel. The question is whether the situation in Gaza...

...is truly as bad as advertised.

Israel starving Gazans?

Parallels to the Warsaw ghetto?

You think those are rational claims?

=========

Israel poverty:
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpovertychildrenyomkippur4831210.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCSaGn1kf58

Who's to blame for Israel's own humanitarian crisis? The government of Palestine? Hamas and Fatah militants? Is it a humanitarian crisis at all? :shrug:

[Jefferson23]

36. No, the Palestininan's are suffering a humanitarian crisis as stated

and supported by numerous credible sources. This is a direct result of the seige, that you wish to play the game of, "It's Not That Bad"

that is your choice, but keep in mind you have nothing to support your, "The question is whether the situation in Gaza...
...is truly as bad as advertised."

A poor choice of words, "as advertised", astonishing.

There is no question, it has been documented over and over again...but you already knew that, I believe.

As for Isarel, from UNICEF:


Under-5 mortality rank
167

Under-5 mortality rate, 1990
11

Under-5 mortality rate, 2008
5

Infant mortality rate (under 1), 1990
10

Infant mortality rate (under 1), 2008
4

Neonatal mortality rate, 2004
3

Total population (thousands), 2008
7051

Annual no. of births (thousands), 2008
140

Annual no. of under-5 deaths (thousands), 2008
1

GNI per capita (US$), 2008
24700

Life expectancy at birth (years), 2008
81

Total adult literacy rate (%), 2003–2008*
-

Primary school net enrolment/ attendance (%), 2003–2008*
97

% share of household income 2000–2007*, lowest 40%
16

% share of household income 2000–2007*, highest 20%
45

Definitions and data sources

Nutrition
to the top

% of infants with low birthweight, 2003–2008*
8

% of children (2003–2008*) who are: Early initiation of breastfeeding (%)
-

% of children (2003–2008*) who are: exclusively breastfed (<6 months)
-

% of children (2003–2008*) who are: breastfed with complementary food (6–9 months)
-

% of children (2003–2008*) who are: still breastfeeding (20–23 months)
-

% of under-fives (2003–2008*) suffering from: underweight (NCHS/WHO) moderate & severe
-

% of under-fives (2003–2008*) suffering from: underweight (WHO) moderate & severe
-

% of under-fives (2003–2008*) suffering from: underweight (WHO) severe
-

% of under-fives (2003–2008*) suffering from: wasting (WHO) moderate & severe
-

% of under-fives (2003–2008*) suffering from: stunting (WHO) moderate & severe
-

Vitamin A supplementation coverage rate (6–59 months) 2008, Full coverage ? (%)
-

% of households consuming iodized salt, 2003–2008*
-

Definitions and data sources

Health
to the top

% of population using improved drinking-water sources, 2006 total
100

% of population using improved drinking-water sources, 2006 urban
100

% of population using improved drinking-water sources, 2006 rural
100

% of population using improved sanitation facilities 2006 total
-

% of population using improved sanitation facilities 2006 urban
100

% of population using improved sanitation facilities 2006 rural
-

% of routine EPI vaccines financed by government 2008 total
-

Immunization 2008, 1-year-old children immunized against: TB, corresponding vaccines: BCG
-

Immunization 2008, 1-year-old children immunized against: DPT, corresponding vaccines: DPT1ß
98

Immunization 2008, 1-year-old children immunized against: DPT, corresponding vaccines: DPT3ß
93

Immunization 2008, 1-year-old children immunized against: Polio, corresponding vaccines: polio3
95

Immunization 2008, 1-year-old children immunized against: Measles, corresponding vaccines: measles
84

Immunization 2008, 1-year-old children immunized against: HepB, corresponding vaccines: HepB3
96

Immunization 2008, 1-year-old children immunized against: Hib, corresponding vaccines: Hib3
93

Immunization 2008, % newborns protected against tetanus?
-

% under-fives with suspected pneumonia taken to an appropriate health-care provider, 2005–2008*
-

% under-fives with suspected pneumonia receiving antibiotics, 2005–2008*
-

% under-fives with diarrhoea receiving oral rehydration and continued feeding, 2005–2008*
-

Malaria 2006–2008*, % households owning at least one ITN
-

Malaria 2006–2008*, % under-fives sleeping under ITNs
-

Malaria 2006–2008*, % under-fives with fever receiving anti-malarial drugs

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/israel_statistics.html#64

[shira]

37. Do you believe claims of Israel starving Gazans in Warsaw ghetto conditions are fair & rational?

[Jefferson23]

54. Find anywhere in the links I posted that there is such a correlation claimed.

There is no question of the humanitarian crisis as the abundant documented evidence supports, I stress this
one last time to you.

[shira]

55. There are many here who have claimed starvation and Warsaw ghetto conditions in Gaza

It's good to see you're distancing yourself from those absurd claims.

What do you make of Gershon Baskin, Nick Kristoff, and UN envoy Robert Serry saying there's no humanitarian crisis in Gaza?

[Jefferson23]

56. Oh for crying out loud, you're going to try and hold responsible

the posts YOU have made on this subject onto others??

The links I left for you on the subject are indisputable. I don't play the game of, It's Not That Bad.

[shira]

63. You've never seen claims here and in the OP-EDs about Israel starving Gazans in the Warsaw Ghetto?

If those 'links' are so indisputable, then what's the story with Gershon Baskin, Robert Serry, and Nicholas Kristof? :shrug:

[Jefferson23]

71. YOU are responsible for what you post, and attempting to use your

posts as an excuse for what someone else may or may not have done should be beneath you.

You own the thread you started about the Humanitarian Show, which has no substance, as was already pointed out to you through UNICEF. You continually question the humanitarian crisis and the reasons for it despite the documented evidence.

I see you are going to continue the game of It's Not That Bad regardless. You will have to write those individuals above and ask them
yourself what data they have collected that counters any of the links I posted for you.

At this point I doubt you can recognize a legitimate source, never mind accept one.

I'm not going to argue with you about this any further, it is pointless.

[shira]

72. Do your "legitimate" sources ever mention Hamas' role in denying aid to Gazans?

Here's a link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x327519#328571

The answer is no. Your sources don't mention Hamas' role WRT Gazans being denied food or medical aid.

Do you know why? Because they don't care that Palestinians suffer. If they did, they'd at least mention and then condemn Hamas. All your phony activist sources care about is bashing Israel.

Hell, if you and others here cared about Palestinians you'd also condemn Hamas, but you don't.

===============

Also, it's disingenuous of you to deny the claims of many here about starvation in the Warsaw like conditions of Gaza.

===============

Lastly, Gershon Baskin, Nicholas Kristof, and Robert Serry all say there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. They have NO REASON whatsoever to deny factual evidence. So what's their story?

[Chulanowa]

75. You need to get out from behind Baskin and Kristof

Just because you've learned how to spell their names does not mean that they agree with you. Baskin tells us that though there is plentiful food, it is not very nutritive (he points out that Gazans are quite malnourished and have a severe lack of protein) and that nobody can afford the stuff on the shelves because of massive unemployment in an already impoverished region. Kristof is even more harsh; reading his words on the situation in Gaza, one very truly gets the sensation that it is a humanitarian crisis, but that he is trying to be "diplomatic" in the way American reporters so often do when speaking of the Israel-Palestine situation.

It's hilarious that you're claiming that "legitimate" sources don't care whether Palestinians suffer... when you yourself are telling us that because there is a mall, there is no suffering. when you tell us that because a very different country has a marginally higher infant mortality rate, that Gaza is an Edenic paradise. That every problem - problems you refuse to admit, oddly - in the area is solely caused by the Gazans themselves.

And you call others deluded.

[shira]

70. Do your indisputable links on the Gaza crisis mention Hamas' role in denying aid to Gazans?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x327519#328571

I'm betting they don't.

Why is that? :shrug:

Your sources aren't very credible, now are they?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chulanowa]

39. This is why I posted the rense article

Because your argument that "there is no crisis," that your argument that "it's an industry of lies," your constant arguments that things are wonderful in Gaza, so wonderful that anyone who says otherwise is - again - part of the "industry of lies" who's agenda is to "defame Israel" or is supportive of Hamas...

is exactly fucking identical to the positions of the people who write things like that rense article, Shira.

"There was no holocaust. It's an industry of lies. Sure there were a few problems, but look, there were swimming pools and hospitals in Auschwitz-Birkinau! Clearly anyone peddling the holohoax myth is simply trying to defame the great nation of Germany, or is supportive of the ZOG conspiracy!"

The presence of a mall is no more evidence of things being hunky-dory than the presence of a swimming pool.

I'd like to think that it's simply a case of you grasping at any straws you can find, and hat you're just parroting this Tom Gross fellow because he's telling you what you already want to hear. But what he says is no different from what David Irving says, and his "Middle East Dispatch" reads like a one-man stormfront. I'm telling you you need to stop sucking this dude, lay down the "lol whut crisis lololololol!" argument, and maybe - just maybe - try use valid sources, rather than the sort that goes "All the media hates you and I'm the only one you can trust!" 'cause that's the first clue you're getting bullshit.

[shira]

43. You're still putting words in my mouth about life in Gaza being 'wonderful'?

If you've read Tom Gross's stuff, how can you seriously argue Israel has been starving Gazans in Warsaw ghetto-like conditions?

[Chulanowa]

58. I'm judging your opinions by what you choose to post

Don't want to be associated with the tripe you're posting? Then stop posting that tripe. Or maybe even stop treating it as unquestionable words from some divine being that must not be questioned.

I've read Tom Gross' stuff. I've also read David Irving's stuff. It's like the difference between Stephen King and Richard Bachman. Ahistorical denialist bullshit with a clear agenda in both cases.

[shira]

69. Can you point to even one post where I've written what you claim?

Also, it's kinda difficult to take your concern for Palestinian suffering seriously based on your answer to whether the UN and PLO were justified in killing the "build-your-own-home" program...

These people are legally entiled to their homes and property that are currently within Israel. Moving them somewhere else also happens to be a violation of international law. While I couldn't blame any Palestinians who took the offer, I also can't blame the PLO or the UN from discouraging it, any morethan I could blame AIM from discouraging tribemembers from leasing land at fifty cents an acre.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x261643#261945

That program would have taken suffering Palestinians out of the squalor of refugee camps into their own homes nearby. That you couldn't blame the PLO or UN for killing the program, meaning Palestinians should continue to suffer and be used as pawns so that they never forget the Palestinian "cause", speaks volumes about you.

You have no credibility at all WRT concern about Palestinian suffering.

You're all for it!

When you show some concern about the way in which the PLO, Hamas, and UN, Lebanon, Jordan, etc.. treat Palestinians, you can bet on being taken more seriously on the subject of Palestinian suffering. Here's some more reading for you on that....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x327519#328366

http://www.hudson-ny.org/1422/palestinians-in-arab-world

[Chulanowa]

78. It's smeared all over everything you've posted in the last two weeks, Shira

Really, learn to pay attention to your own context.

[Arctic Dave]

2. 9,700sqft? That's Hugh1!

Are shitting me, there are homes in my neighborhood that big.


Don't worry, I'm sure the shitbags running the idf are already planning to blow it up.

[Ozymanithrax]

4. For a third world country, that is not bad.

The Gaza is not the United States or a first world country with a population that will support vast malls.

[Chulanowa]

7. The IDF will not touch this

If you missed what's going on here... Shira's purpose in posting this is to back up his / her (Sorry Shira, I'm not sure) meme that life in Gaza is fucking fantastic and everyone should stop being at all concerned. This story is running all over the pro-Israeli side of the web, all with the same theme; "Look at the luxury the Gazans have! WHy do those anti-semite fuckers in the US think things here are bad, look, there's a mall!"

It's the same claim you'll sometimes see from the right here in the US; that because impoverished people in the US still have a color television, things aren't really bad at all for them.

[shira]

30. Having fun knocking down strawman arguments?

No one is arguing life in Gaza is a vacation, only that it's nowhere remotely similar to the Warsaw ghetto, etc.

Be honest.

One routine claim was that Israel was starving Gazans. True or not?

[Chulanowa]

45. Actually that's exactly what you keep arguing, Shira

Your articles are always guaranteed to be puff pieces about how awesome Gaza is. Now it has A Mall to go with The Restaurant. I hear that there's even A Swimming Pool! WOWEE! it's like a motel in Hoboken! On the very rare occasions you post anything regarding problems in Gaza, it is exclusively an effort to "prove" that everything wrong with the Gazans is exclusively the fault of the Gazans themselves. They make us hit them, and they need to stop hitting themselves, too, the dumb backwards savages. And your sources are invariably blogs that could make Glen Beck blush with how overt and open they are with their bigotry and hatred.

So, you don't get to tell me to be honest, Shira. You have waived that privilege.

And after a little more reading, I do agree that Gaza is not directly comparable to the Warsaw ghetto. That comparison is best served by the west bank towns and villages that Israel is walling up and pointing guns into. Gaza is more like Ciskei or KaNgwane.

Was Israel starving Gazans? No. That was an emotional appeal and, as you clearly demonstrate, didn't make the case. However, Israel did restrict foodstuffs - "putting the Gazans on a diet" was the phrase used, I believe. Why? It's a military blockade, and Israel's stated goals was to keep weapons out of the hands of terrorists. So why prohibit so much food from entering? Does Hamas have plans for a custard-based weapon? While curry can have some impressively explosive effects on the human body, I don't think that it's of the sort Israel needs to be worried about. Further, why forbid the import of seed to Gaza? I can understand barring chemical fertilizers given the stated goal of the blockade, but seed and organic fertilizer like manure were also prohibited. If there's a way to weaponize barley and mulch, I'd love to know about it. Israel also prevented Gazan fishermen from going out more than five miles - and okay, there's a blockade on and, ignoring for the moment that the blockade was illegal, I can understand not letting boats out past a certain point.

Net effect? Israel makes Gaza dependent on Israeli good will to eat. This isn't a problem, if we believe that Israeli good will is perpetual and unflagging, I suppose. But considering that the Israelis are the cause of the situation necessitating Gazan dependency on their good will in the first place... Basically the victim is dependent on the abuser, which has a whole host of bad ramifications beyond "OMG THEY'RE STARVING!"

Now, your turn.

Hamas is capable of destroying Israel, true or false?

[shira]

46. No, it's really not.

To answer you, Hamas for now is no threat to destroy Israel anymore than Al Qaeda can destroy the USA. But the fact of the matter is no country on earth would take thousands of rockets without defending itself. AFAIK, you're against Israel defending its citizens from Hamas attacks. They should just 'take it'. Israel sinned with the settlements, occupation.... so Israelis don't deserve to be defended from Hamas' terror. If I'm wrong, you can simply provide at least one realistic measure Israel could take against Hamas' terror, without harming Palestinians. I'll wait.

Gershom Baskin and Nicholas Kristoff can in no way be described as hateful Rightwing dittoheads of Glenn Beck. Why do you think they claim there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza? Are you just smarter than they are? :shrug:

[Chulanowa]

61. Israel doesn't defend its citizens, is the thing.

Why should it? Israel's political leaders directly benefit from these attacks. Let's not pretend that Israel's leaders are some sort of saintly breed of politicians, above and beyond the rest of their ilk around the world. Israel's leaders - even the "moderates" like Livni, are hawks. They're deeply tied to the military, and the industries around that military. They are elected for their "hardline" stance against "terror" and "the Arab threat."

The rockets sail over the border, a Jew dies... and the poll numbers for those militaristic "hardliners" go up. If they respond by hammering Gaza with missiles, their numbers soar! Of course, smashing Gaza with hellfire missiles isn't going to stop the rockets from getting fired, in fact it usually provokes a greater response. Even if it doesn't these hardliners get to keep their inflated poll numbers. And let's face it; the more rockets are putting potholes in Israeli dirt, the bigger the check from Washington will be. Ergo the better cut those same politicians can get of it.

Helping this is the fact that the rockets themselves are not terribly dangerous. Eleven people have been killed and thirty-odd injured in the last decade by rocket attacks. That's counting the Second Intifada, and the response during OCL. Now I'll grant, that's forty-odd people too many. The point is that these weapons are low-risk. Therefor it's safe for politicians to let them keep coming in; they do more good than harm to those all-important careers, after all. So long as the Jews of Israel are scared, all the better for the "hardliners." If the occasional Israeli does or is injured, well, that helps those poll numbers, too.

If Hamas were using actual dangerous weapons - say, suicide bombings, katushya rockets, or even heaven forbid, actual missiles - I imagine that the leaders of Israel would make an honest attempt at defending Israeli lives; those sort of weapons are too high-lethality to benefit politicians. If ten suicide bombers kill eighty people in the span of three months, then whoever is running the show in Israel has about two weeks to do some massive heavy lifting, or he's out on his ass.

So do I think Israel should defend itself? Of course I do. I have no interest in seeing anyone dead on either side. What I see, though, is that Israel doesn't know how to defend itself. It knows how to enact reprisals, but that's a different thing, and is of no good in terms of defense (it's usually counterproductive, in fact). That is, you can't lob hellfire missiles into Gaza after a rocket attack and call it "defense," it simply doesn't work. The problem is that Israel is not fighting a state army here. Trading fire doesn't do any good. When it attempts a land assault as it did in 2008, it goes piss-poor because for all their technological advantage, it seems that the Israelis are still trained to fight the 1948 war.

The one thing that has actually proven to have any effectiveness in halting or slowing the attacks, is speaking with the people responsible. Go to a table with whoever the spokesputz for Hamas is, and offer a deal. This worked during the 2005 colonist pullout, and it worked during the 2008 cease-fire. In both cases, Hamas stopped firing rockets and went after those who continued. Whether anyone in Gaza would take a deal from Israel after the last time is doubtful. However it's what has shown effectiveness in the past; more so than beating the Gazans across the head has ever accomplished.

And please, spare me the silly "That wasn't really a cease-fire!" argument. How stupid do you think the Israelis are, really? Gotta be pretty fucking stupid to agree to a "not-really-a-cease-fire"

Do you believe that Gershon Baskin and Nicholas Kristof (can you spell their names correctly, at least?) know more about humanitarian crises than the International Red Cross? By the by, Baskin points out that while there is no starvation, there is a severe problem with malnourishment in Gaza, primarily a lack of protein. He points out that Israel has breached the Movement and Access Agreement and the Agreement on Rafah and thus is primarily to blame for the situation with smuggling and tunnels. He also notes that with 70% unemployment (in a spot of the world that has a $600 per-capita GDP, no less) there is simply nobody who can afford the necessities.

Kristof insists that the "siege of Gaza" is "morally bankrupt," "a case of collective punishment," and insists that it "encourages extremism" and opines "If the U.S. and Israel had formed a Joint Commission to Support Hamas Extremists and Bolster Iranian Influence, they could hardly have done a better job." Baskin agrees with him on this notion, that the siege - Baskin uses that term as well, liberally so - has done nothing but help the very people Israel says it was trying to hurt.

Of course, once you realize that Israel's politicians are quite interested in maintaining Hamas as a paper tiger for their political advancement, that makes more sense.

However, Shira, I was not talking about Gershon Baskin or Nicholas Kristof. In fact I don't think I've ever seen you source from them - and if you ever did I'd be fucking floored, since they disagree with you on every angle. I was talking about your frequent use of Tom Gross, who's MEMRI Lite operation seems to wallow in your preferred flavor of denialist muck

[shira]

65. Rrrright.

1. So Israel can do nothing to prevent the rockets other than beg Hamas to stop for awhile. Nevermind that at the end of 2008, Hamas made it clear they wouldn't negotiate another Tahdiyah (calm). Therefore, Israelis should just "take it" and wish Hamas would stop. Great plan there, Ace.

2. Baskin, Kristof, and UN Envoy to the Middle East Robert Serry agree with Tom Gross about there being no humanitarian crisis. What they claim, as bad as it is, doesn't amount to a humanitarian crisis. That's the whole point.

[Chulanowa]

81. Yes, very right

Likud and the rest of the Israeli right (of which Labour is seeming more and more a part of every passing day) get elected on the blood of Israelis. It's no different than how Republicans are regarded as "strong on defense" by a large number of Americans.

1) Yes, Hamas did make it clear that they would not renew the cease-fire on December 18, 2008. They made this decision because on November 16, 2008, Israel violated that cease-fire. That's a crucial factor that you have decided to leave out, Shira. Israel fired missiles into Gaza City and bombed Rafah while under the auspices of the cease-fire. What's more, Israel had acted in poor faith; Hamas upheld its end of the agreement, halting its own rocket attacks and stamping down on those who persisted, until as of October, only one rocket went over the border. September saw three shots over the border; two of these were fired from the Israel side into Gaza. For the two weeks of November that the truce stood, there were no attacks. This is the conditions that Israel demanded of Hamas; In return, Israel would relax the borders, and open crossings. Israel did neither, not even a little. Of course Hamas did not renew the agreement; the agreement was completely worthless, because Israel would not respect it.

2) Yes, I know it's your whole point. The International Red Cross disagrees with two journalists and a UN envoy, however. Both of those journalists perfectly describe a situation of humanitarian crisis, but choose to not call it one. You seriously want to tell me a malnourished bunch of people suffering 70% unemployment with a GDP per capita of $600 and living under the very real possibility of either Israel or Hamas killing them for supposedly working for "the other side" is not a crisis situation? Of fucking course it is, Shira, and if it were anyone but Palestinian Arabs, you would freely admit so. In short, your point is bullshit, and what you are doing is no different from what Israel was doing at Oslo, when it refused to allow the term "Occupied Palestinian Territories" to be used - despite the fact that Israel was obviously occupying them.

"Yes, that's exactly what it is, but let's call it something nicer!"

It's not a homocide, it's a murder-death-kill! And those are doubleplus ungood!

[oberliner]

82. Both Israel and Hamas violated the cease fire on that day

Israel and Hamas both respected the terms of the cease fire to the same extent.

After the violations of the cease fire committed by Israel and Hamas on the date you mentioned, they both went back to observing it for the remainder of the six month period.

I don't see how what resulted from Hamas deciding to end the cease fire is better than what would have resulted from them deciding to renew it for another six months.

Of course, if Hamas had decided to permanently and publicly renounce violence against civilians, there may have been positive results.

[Chulanowa]

86. Your title is not true

Your first sentence is an untruth.

The second sentence is a falsehood.

The third sentence is just ignorant.

The fourth sentence is easily turned back onto the Israelis.

I think you should leave this sort of thing to Shira, Oberliner. You're not very good at pushing the propaganda. if you really wish, I could expound on my statements here; Or you could just google it and educate yourself, thereby saving me some time.

[oberliner]

87. Hamas militants fired more than 35 rockets into Israel today, hours after the Israeli army

Hamas militants fired more than 35 rockets into Israel today, hours after the Israeli army killed six people in the Gaza Strip in the first major exchange of fire since a truce took effect in June.

The violence came after the Israeli army said its forces had uncovered a tunnel 250 metres inside Gaza that it said militants planned to use to abduct Israeli soldiers.

Israel launched airstrikes that killed five people and shot dead a gunman during an incursion into the enclave yesterday, saying it had done so after militants attacked soldiers who had gone to destroy the tunnel.

Israeli rescue services called the rocket barrage that followed, for which Hamas claimed responsibility, "massive".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians-egypt

I am not sure where you get your information from, but both Israel and Hamas broke the cease fire on the same day and both went back to respecting the cease fire afterward until December when Hamas decided to end it - and did so with a barrage of rocket attacks on the day following the end of the cease fire.

You can throw out words like falsehood, untruth, and ignorant, but anyone who wishes to look up what took place can do so and draw their own conclusions.

I do agree with you that Israel also could have made choices that would have yielded different results. I hope that you agree that the same is true for Hamas.

Hamas obviously cannot control what Israel does, but they do (and did) have quite a few things that they could have done that were completely and entirely in their own hands.

Had Hamas decided to reject violence against civilians permanently and publicly, a bold "outside-the-box" way of thinking for them, there might have been a positive outcome emenating from that choice.

[Chulanowa]

89. "Hours after the Israeli army killed six people in the Gaza Strip"

Key word is "after"

Also worth mention; Israel had already killed 19 Gazans prior to this. No Israelis were killed from the other direction.

Also worth mention; Israel was not meeting its side of the deal.

Also worth mention; Hamas reconsidered their position of not renewing the agreement on December 23, four days before Israel went bugnuts on Gaza.

End result;
Palestinian casualties - 1,417 deaths, 5,303 wounded, over 50,800 displaced, 4,000 homes destroyed.
Israeli casualties - 13 dead, 518 wounded, 0 displaced, 0 homes destroyed.

With your posts in the sub-thread below, and your propagandizing here, it would seem you view a palestinian's life as being worth about 1/10 that of an Israeli, Oberliner.

If I may, I would call your equation of the two to be "obscene"

[oberliner]

95. So they did both break the cease fire on the same day

I am glad you are no longer disputing that.

I am not sure what you are saying I am equating that is obscene exactly, but I guess you are trying to make a point with respect to my comments about your comparing certain villages in the West Bank to the Warsaw Ghetto under Nazi Germany.

A Palestinian life is worth just as much as an Israeli life. I have no idea where you would get the sense that I believe otherwise. I most certainly do not.

The invasion of Gaza by Israel is something I completely opposed and continue to believe should absolutely not have taken place.

The loss of innocent civilian life, especially of very young children, was especially condemnable.

That being said, Hamas could have made some different choices as well, such as making a public commitment to renounce violence against civilians.

[ConsAreLiars]

100. You can't be as dumb as you pretend. (Well, you might be.) The one who hit the other first is

the one who broke the law. The one who murdered six without being hit first is a monster by most standards. Not yours, of course. The one who attempted to retaliate ineffectually on the same day is not equally guilty just because both actions happened on the same day of the calendar.

You are every day becoming less a mirror and more a clone of that overtly deluded and irrational one which shares your tribalist loyalty.

[oberliner]

106. The first violation of the cease fire came from Gaza not from Israel (and it was in June)

It would be better if we could stick to a discussion of the facts rather than resorting to comments about "tribalist loyalty" and such.

Your perception of this conflict as evidenced by the language that you use when discussing it demonstrates that you are as locked in to your own particular loyalties with respect to these issues as anyone.

[ConsAreLiars]

118. The history is not as you try to present it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#June_2008_Attempt_at_easing_restrictions

The UN recorded seven Israel Defense Forces (IDF) violations of the ceasefire between June 20 and June 26, and three violations by Palestinian groups not affiliated with Hamas between June 23 and 26.<32> On December 18, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, reported 185 Israeli violations during the lull period.<33> The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center reported a total of 223 rockets and 139 mortar shells fired from Gaza during the lull, including 20 rockets and 18 mortar shells before November 4.<34> It noted that "Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire" until November 4, when the ceasefire was "seriously eroded."<35> Rocket fire decreased by 98 percent in the four and a half months between June 18 and November 4 when compared to the four and half months preceding the ceasefire.<36> Hamas denied responsibility for the rocket fire during the lull. Human Rights Watch reported that while Hamas security forces demonstrated an ability to curb rocket fire, while some people detained for rocket firing were released without explanation.<37>

The sources:
32 ^ FACTBOX-Israel, Palestinians trade blame for truce violations Reuters. 26 Jun 2008
33 ^ "Official Statistics About the lull Zionist Violations From the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades Information Office" - "إحصائية رسمية صادرة عن المكتب الإعلامي لكتائب القسام حول الانتهاكات الصهيونية للتهدئة". Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades Information Office. 2008-12-18. Archived from the original on 2009-01-17. http://www.webcitation.org/5dt4cwxFw. Retrieved 2009-01-17.
34 ^ "Summary of rocket fire and mortar shelling in 2008". Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center. 2009. http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf. Retrieved 2010-06-04.
35 ^ Six Months of the Lull Arrangement Intelligence Report Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center (IICC) December 31, 2008
36 ^ Summary of Rocket Fire and Mortar Shelling in 2008. (pdf) Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center. Retrieved January 14, 2009. pp. 5-7. Drop in rocket fire calculated from data provided in report.
37 ^ BRONNER, ETHAN (2008-12-19). "Gaza Truce May Be Revived by Necessity". New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/world/middleeast/20mideast.html?scp=2&sq=Ethan%20Bronner%20December%202008%20gaza&st=cse. Retrieved 2009-02-12.


And what happened on Nov 4, 2008 that ended the ceasefire? As reprinted at: http://www.rightsidenews.com/200812313157/global-terrorism/six-months-of-the-lull-arrangement-intelligence-report.html

Six Months of the Lull Arrangement Intelligence Report
from IICC
Wednesday, 31 December 2008 02:38

December 31, 2008

Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center (IICC)


4. An analysis of the situation on the ground indicates two distinct periods:

i) A period of relative quiet between June 19 and November 4 : As of June 19, there was a marked reduction in the extent of attacks on the western Negev population. The lull was sporadically violated by rocket and mortar shell fire, carried out by rogue terrorist organizations, in some instance in defiance of Hamas (especially by Fatah and Al-Qaeda supporters). Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire. The IDF refrained from undertaking counterterrorism activities in the Gaza Strip, taking only routine defensive security measures along the border fence. Between June 19 and November 4, 20 rockets (three of which fell inside the Gaza Strip) and 18 mortar shells (five of which fell inside the Gaza Strip) were fired at Israel .

ii) The escalation and erosion of the lull arrangement, November 4 to the time of this writing, December 17 2: On November 4 the IDF carried out a military action close to the border security fence on the Gazan side to prevent an abduction planned by Hamas, which had dug a tunnel under the fence to that purpose. Seven Hamas terrorist operatives were killed during the action. In retaliation, Hamas and the other terrorist organizations attacked Israel with a massive barrage of rockets. Since then, 191 rockets and 138 mortar shells have been fired. The attacks have been continuous and some were carried out by weapons not previously used, such as 122mm standard Grad rockets and 120mm mortar shells. Hamas has been directly involved in the attacks in cooperation with the other terrorist organizations.

5. During the second period a new dynamic was created which replaced the former relative calm: Hamas and the other terrorist organizations extended their attacks (rocket and mortar shell fire, IEDs and light-arms fire), the IDF operated to prevent attacks within the Gaza Strip (Israeli Air Force attacks, firing at terrorist squads within the Gaza Strip near the border), the terrorist organizations responded with barrages of rocket and mortar shell fire to retaliate for their losses and continued daily sporadic fire, in response to which Israel closed the border crossings, exerting pressure on Hamas and the Gaza Strip residents.

[oberliner]

121. Wikipedia link is riddled with problems (as most Wikipedia articles are)

Several of the footnotes have links that don't work. The ones that do work do not support the information contained in the article. And the last sentence of the paragraph you cited is nonsensical.

In any case, rockets were fired from Gaza before the November incident, in violation of the cease fire.

Hopefully that basic fact is something, at least, we can agree on.

[ConsAreLiars]

123. Wow, you are in complete denial of reality mode.

I guess you have to be.

The article cited is from a rabid anti-Palestinian source within the Israeli hierarchy, as should be obvious from the language used.

Hamas agreed to cease all rocketing, and to suppress such acts by others outside their organization. They completely complied with those terms of the agreement, before the IDF murdered what the Guardian initially reported as si8x and the later anti-Palestinian report from Israel put at seven.

(edit typos)

[oberliner]

127. Why would you cite a "rabid anti-Palestinian source" ?

Seems like a poor choice, especially since "Cons are Liars" as your name tells us.

In any case, there were rockets launched from Gaza into Israel within a week of the cease fire. That is very well documented.

If you deny that, then it is you who is in denial of reality mode.

[ConsAreLiars]

129. That was one of the sources providing the facts you refuse to face.

The same facts are also available from several other sources. I thought a source which shares your views about the Palestinians might, against the odds, penetrate your delusional denialism when it comes to the issue of who killed first after the ceasefire began. I didn't expect that it would. I expected exactly what your "reply" provides. Not addressing the facts, just changing the subject. You are very transparent, you know.

[oberliner]

131. Speaking of refusing to face facts

Will you acknowledge that rockets were fired from Gaza against Israel six days after the cease fire was implemented?

Or is that a fact you refuse to face?

[shira]

128. Denial of reality is your Modus Operandi...

Not only did Hamas violate the "ceasefire" (actually a tahdiyya or 'calm') within hours of it being implemented in June 2008, it was Hamas who decided not to renew it in December 2008, opting for war against Israel...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x250119#251934

It's also obscene, but hardly surprising, that you would argue Israeli defensive retaliation to Hamas rockets (or tunnels dug into Israel for kidnapping) count as 'violations' while Hamas' deliberate targetting of civilians during that time was self-defense and therefore does not count as ceasefire violations.

[ConsAreLiars]

124. Anyone using Wikipedia should "trust but verify" as with any source. None meet the

standard of infallibility, and all get manipulated by professional liars. I recall Israel has begun paying to get its spin on the web, and the reichists in the US have been busy for decades doing that same task. Wiki at least has a community-ombudsman function in place, while most other outlets have a chief accountant.

As for the Links being broken, they all worked for me, other than the sublink to the above-cited bigot site which took me to the main page instead of the quoted article. But the article was correctly linked in the first source cited.

In short, you are lying about the links being broken, or whatever ISP you are using is blocking you and giving you false information when you do a search or hit a link. Pick one.

(edit typo)

[oberliner]

126. What happens when you click on the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades link?

It was footnote 33 in your original, but it now appears to be footnote 34.

[Chulanowa]

101. That's actually exactly what I'm disputing, Oberliner

As ConsAreLiars said more, ah, prosaically, the person who shoots first is the one who violates the cease-fire. If the other parties shoot back, then that's simply retaliation. Your argument seems to be that the Gazans should just, as Shira put it, "take it." That may not be your intent, but it sure is the message you're ending up with here, by claiming the victims are just as guilty as the aggressors.

Yes, Hamas could have made different choices. However, they - along with the rest of the Palestinians - have very limited options. In this case they had the option to "take it", or they had the option to retaliate. They chose to retaliate. Previously they had chosen not to. As Shira has asked regarding Israel, how much do they have to take before it's okay for them to start doing something about it?

Hamas could, as you say, renounce all violence against civilians. This is a "warm 'n' fuzzy" talking point, of course, and doesn't bear weight very well. It's sort of like the whole "recognize Israel's right to exist" in that regard. There really is absolutely nothing Hamas could do that would actually help them in any position. They are the "official enemy," and as such even if they they all their weapons into the sea and all converted to hare krishna, they would be accused of polluting the sea to poison Israeli bathers and trying to mask their terrorist nature while laundering money for more weapons (presumably for the sea-pollution scheme.)

We saw this immediately after the Israeli breach of the 20078 cease-fire, when magically, mysteriously, it was "suddenly discovered" that it wasn't really a cease-fire! No, it was a hudna, or a tadiyah, or some other scary-sounding Arab word meaning "lull in violence" or something! See, SEE?!?! it was all a plot by Hamas, and the poor helpless guileless Israelis couldn't help but fall for it, and thus were totally justified in breaking the agreement! This argument - and that is exactly the argument seen around here from several "eminent personages" - is ludicrous on its own. But then they got pissed when Hamas announced it wasn't renewing the -it-wasn't-a-cease-fire-anyway. Kafka couldn't write this.

Basically, no matter what Hamas does or says, its opponents are going to bullshit their way into justifying killing Hamas and Gazan civilians anyway. Did you see the beartrap the PLO caught itself in when it renounced violence? Same deal. They renounced violence, went political.. .And nothing htye ever did was right or remotely good enough. They kept having restrictions, sanctions and threats dropped on them. They were told to combat the terrorists, their police did so, then they were told to reduce their police forces because they were too "brutal" (I.e., they were about as hardcore as the Chicago PD) and groups like Islamic Jihad and Hamas made the most of the decreased police presence, and then Israel responded by lobbing hellfire missiles... very often into police posts. The PLO basically fell apart because of this, and many other turns of being bent over the barrel.

Now, I do want to say, I don't think hamas should be targeting civilians. And that firing uncontrollable weapons towards a generally populated area is de-facto "targeting of civilians." I simply don't think renouncing that is going to help them at all. They'd get to feel morally righteous while Israel finds new ways to justify killing them and their citizens. But since Hamas already feels morally righteous, they have nothing to gain, really.

I also don't think Israel should be targeting civilians. And given that Israel actually has targetable weapons and still ends up with piles and piles of dead Arabs in its hands, it would seem to me that they are as much in need to make that commitment as Hamas is. Or maybe they need to start firing kassams from their apache gunships, instead of hellfire missiles. it'd be safer and poetically ironic..

[oberliner]

105. Rockets were fired from Gaza 6 days into the cease fire and Israel did not retaliate

The first violation of the cease fire came from the Palestinian side and it occurred on June 24th.

Rockets 'violated Gaza ceasefire'

Israel has declared that a rocket attack by Palestinian militants on the southern town of Sderot was a "grave violation" of a six-day-old truce.

No injuries were reported after at least two rockets were fired from Gaza, the first since the agreement came into force in the Hamas-run territory.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians-egypt

The incident in November took place because Israel believed that Hamas was in the process of making a tunnel to capture/kidnap Israeli soldiers on the border (a la Gilad Shalit). Four Israeli soldier were injured and one Hamas militant was killed in that initial skirmish.

Soon thereafter, Hamas launched 35 mortars into civilian areas in southern Israel (such as the city of Ashkelon). An Israeli strike on the rocket-launchers followed that Hamas attack, killing five more Hamas fighters.

After this exchange of attacks, both sides returned to observing the cease fire until it expired.

[ConsAreLiars]

119. Again, more alternate reality and , uh, convenient forgetting.

Repeated from my post #118:

The UN recorded seven Israel Defense Forces (IDF) violations of the ceasefire between June 20 and June 26, and three violations by Palestinian groups not affiliated with Hamas between June 23 and 26.<32>
...
32 ^ FACTBOX-Israel, Palestinians trade blame for truce violations Reuters. 26 Jun 2008

As usual, ignoring some facts and misrepresenting others may be the way you choose to "argue." Better than the screamer, but half-truths are not facts any more than ad hominem yelling.


For example, you appear to cite a Guardian article to the effect that "The incident in November took place because Israel believed that Hamas was in the process of making a tunnel to capture/kidnap Israeli soldiers on the border (a la Gilad Shalit). Four Israeli soldier were injured and one Hamas militant was killed in that initial skirmish."

While there was ellegedly a tunnel being dug and an attack by the IDF, the actual article says something quite different than what you claim. Here is what the article you site actually says:

Hamas militants fired more than 35 rockets into Israel today, hours after the Israeli army killed six people in the Gaza Strip in the first major exchange of fire since a truce took effect in June.

The violence came after the Israeli army said its forces had uncovered a tunnel 250 metres inside Gaza that it said militants planned to use to abduct Israeli soldiers.

Israel launched airstrikes that killed five people and shot dead a gunman during an incursion into the enclave yesterday, saying it had done so after militants attacked soldiers who had gone to destroy the tunnel.

Israeli rescue services called the rocket barrage that followed, for which Hamas claimed responsibility, "massive".

[oberliner]

120. Guardian article

Guardian article citation:

Israeli troops crossed into the Gaza Strip late last night near the town of Deir al-Balah. The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away. Four Israeli soldiers were injured in the operation, two moderately and two lightly, the military said.

One Hamas gunman was killed and Palestinians launched a volley of mortars at the Israeli military. An Israeli air strike then killed five more Hamas fighters. In response, Hamas launched 35 rockets into southern Israel, one reaching the city of Ashkelon.

"This was a pinpoint operation intended to prevent an immediate threat," the Israeli military said in a statement. "There is no intention to disrupt the ceasefire, rather the purpose of the operation was to remove an immediate and dangerous threat posted by the Hamas terror organisation."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

That is pretty much exactly what I summarized.

Also I left out a link to the BBC article that sites that initial violation of the cease fire from Gaza in June:

Israel has declared that a rocket attack by Palestinian militants on the southern town of Sderot was a "grave violation" of a six-day-old truce.

No injuries were reported after at least two rockets were fired from Gaza, the first since the agreement came into force in the Hamas-run territory.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7470530.stm

[ConsAreLiars]

122. The words you "cite" are definitely in the article I accessed via your link.

Skipping the photo at the top, here is the whole thing, complete with typo, as seen at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

Hamas fires rockets after Israel kills six in Gaza

* Reddit
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* Rachel Williams and agencies
* guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 5 November 2008 10.23 GMT

Gaza strike Israel A man sifts throught rubble after Israel's overnight operation Photograph: Marco Longari/AFP

Hamas militants fired more than 35 rockets into Israel today, hours after the Israeli army killed six people in the Gaza Strip in the first major exchange of fire since a truce took effect in June.

The violence came after the Israeli army said its forces had uncovered a tunnel 250 metres inside Gaza that it said militants planned to use to abduct Israeli soldiers.

Israel launched airstrikes that killed five people and shot dead a gunman during an incursion into the enclave yesterday, saying it had done so after militants attacked soldiers who had gone to destroy the tunnel.

Israeli rescue services called the rocket barrage that followed, for which Hamas claimed responsibility, "massive".

An Israeli police spokesman told Reuters the rockets had landed in southern Israel, causing no damage or injuries. The army said its operation did not violate the truce, but was a legitimate move to remove an immediate threat to Israel from Gaza.

A senior military official said the tunnel had been dug from inside a Gaza home, illustrating that Hamas was using civilians for cover.

"We don't have any intention of breaking the truce, we are working to isolate this threat," the official said.

Hamas also insisted it had not broken the truce and was acting to prevent an Israeli incursion. Taher Nunu, a Hamas government spokesman, said the organisation considered the airstrike a violation of the truce.

"This is a serious breach of the truce understandings reached through Egyptian mediation," he said in an email to reporters, according to Reuters. "We consider this the most serious in a string of breaches."

Hamas' claim of responsibility for the attacks is the first such announcement by the Islamist group since an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire with Israel came into effect on June 19.

There has been sporadic mortar and rocket fire since, but nothing on the scale of today's salvo.

Palestinian officials said they had been informed by Israel that all commercial border crossings with the Gaza Strip would remain closed today in response to the rocket attacks. Text

You may want to squint really hard and focus your concentration so you can read the large type at the top:

Hamas fires rockets after Israel kills six in Gaza

You say one killed then rockets then five more, all inside Gaza. The article you link says six then rockets.

Although killing 6 in breaking a ceasefire is worse than killing only one in terms of human suffering, killing even one broke and definitely ended the agreement. None of the very few rockets fired by anyone inside Gaza had even resulted in the need for a bandaid during the period in question. The Israeli government and IDF responded to the fact that Hamas had kept to the cease-fire predictably. They broke it.

That murder spree was intended to break any pretense of a truce, and intended to cause a reaction, and intended to give the knee-jerk dittoheads some blah-blah nonsense to mouth like trained automatons when the long planned mass murder called OCL began.

[oberliner]

125. That's why I provided a link to an updated version of the Guardian article with more specific detail

Here it is again:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

This article was published several hours after the initial report in that newspaper that you continue to reference.

Relevant passage:

Israeli troops crossed into the Gaza Strip late last night near the town of Deir al-Balah. The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away. Four Israeli soldiers were injured in the operation, two moderately and two lightly, the military said.

One Hamas gunman was killed and Palestinians launched a volley of mortars at the Israeli military. An Israeli air strike then killed five more Hamas fighters. In response, Hamas launched 35 rockets into southern Israel, one reaching the city of Ashkelon.

[ConsAreLiars]

130. Again, that link goes to the article I quoted,

The one with this headline:

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen

I guess your argument is that although the IDF committed the first murder, and then five more (the bigot site says 6 more), that did not break the cease fire.

OK, whatever. You are as irrational as your colleague the screamer.

[oberliner]

132. You may have missed something

I wrote that both sides broke the cease fire on that day, so I don't know where you get that I am arguing that the IDF did not break the cease fire.

[ConsAreLiars]

133. A contract or agreement is broken by the one that first violates the terms.

It is no longer binding at that point. The two sides may try to maintain a truce or other agreement even if there is a rough start.

From my first post in this thread:

"The one who hit the other first is the one who broke the law. The one who murdered six without being hit first is a monster by most standards. Not yours, of course. The one who attempted to retaliate ineffectually on the same day is not equally guilty just because both actions happened on the same day of the calendar."

As for the rockets, The agreement was that Hamas would stop and would also take action against any outside their ranks within Gaza who fired rockets. They complied completely with those terms. No Israeli was injured by the 19 or 20 that were shot off before the IDF murdered 6 Hamas members on Nov. 4. Those of the faction opposed to Hamas were caught and punished.

As for who committed the first lesser, non-lethal infractions, that was Israel as well.

Repeating the information from an earlier post, since your ability to comprehend/retain facts which contradict your preferred conclusions seems to be seriously impaired:

Repeating from the wiki post I made (#118):

"The UN recorded seven Israel Defense Forces (IDF) violations of the ceasefire between June 20 and June 26, and three violations by Palestinian groups not affiliated with Hamas between June 23 and 26.<32> On December 18, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, reported 185 Israeli violations during the lull period.<33> The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center reported a total of 223 rockets and 139 mortar shells fired from Gaza during the lull, including 20 rockets and 18 mortar shells before November 4.<34>"

Fact: The Israelis were the first violators, but the truce held.
Fact: Hamas kept to its bargain re: Rockets.
Fact: The IDF killed many Gazans during the truce and when those acts failed to provoke Hamas into retaliatory violence they killed 6 (or 7) in one day.
Fact: Only after the truce was broken by those murderous acts did Hamas attempt to respond with (ineffective) attempts to harm Israels.
Fact: Israeli's leadership got the intended result. A pretext. A cover story that seemed to its acolytes and dittohead rightists to justify the pre-planned massacres and destruction that followed.

Incidentally, you claimed first that the Wikipedia article was riddled with errors and broken links. I replied the links worked and the sources were available for further validation. Then, rather than pointing out any errors you backed off and claimed that one link was broken. Again, a desperate attempt to divert the discussion with another fabrication or insult. The link you falsely claimed to be invalid was this one: http://www.webcitation.org/5dt4cwxFw . Anyone who clicks it will go to a page offering a download of a file called enthakat_thdeaa.zip. Unzipping that file will get a 5 times larger file called enthakat_thdeaa.doc, which can be viewed by anyone. Reading it is another issue, but getting it is easy.

Your tactics are pathetic. Your mask is transparent. Your supremacist ideology is apparent in almost every post. Your inability to think about or honestly discuss the facts is something you might want see as a defect rather than a skill.

(edit an incomplete sentence)

[oberliner]

134. Your "facts" are not facts

Your first fact, that the Israelis were the first violators, is not true. You keep ignoring what occurred on June 25th - which is the first time the cease fire was violated - and it was violated from the Palestinian side, not the Israeli side.

From the AP:

JERUSALEM - Palestinian militants fired three homemade rockets into southern Israel yesterday, threatening to unravel a cease-fire days after it began, and Israel responded by closing vital border crossings into Gaza.

Despite what it called a "gross violation" of the truce, Israel refrained from military action and said it would send an envoy soon to Egypt to work on the next stage of a broader cease-fire agreement: a prisoner swap that would bring home an Israeli soldier held by Hamas for more than two years.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2008/06/25/palestinian_rockets_threaten_truce/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+World+News

Are you willing to accept this fact?

You second fact is also inaccurate.

Hamas did not keep to its bargain, as you claim. Rockets were still fired from Gaza (although in far fewer numbers).

Your Wikipedia article states that Hamas "denied responsibility" for the rocket fire during the lull.

If there was no rocket fire, why would Hamas need to deny responsibility?

Also mentioned in the Wikipedia article you are so enamored of, Hamas released those who fired rockets without explanation.

You also continue to mischaracterize the events of November 4 as "murders" which implies something very different from what actually took place.

I assume you don't believe that Hamas was actually building a tunnel in an attempt to kidnap Israeli soldiers (even though this is something that they had done previously with enormous success). Am I correct in that assumption?

[ConsAreLiars]

135. You seem to insist that real facts are incompatible with your belief system. Your selectivity

is, of course, your only recourse.

Fact one: "The UN recorded seven Israel Defense Forces (IDF) violations of the ceasefire between June 20 and June 26, and three violations by Palestinian groups not affiliated with Hamas between June 23 and 26."

Fact two: "The UN recorded seven Israel Defense Forces (IDF) violations of the ceasefire between June 20 and June 26, and three violations by Palestinian groups not affiliated with Hamas between June 23 and 26."

Fact three: Fact: The IDF killed many Gazans during the truce and when those acts failed to provoke Hamas into retaliatory violence they killed 6 (or 7) in one day. During that period no Israelis were injured.

Fact four: Only after the truce was broken by those murderous acts did Hamas attempt to respond with (ineffective) attempts to harm Israels.

Fact five: Israeli's leadership got the intended result. A pretext. A cover story that seemed to its acolytes and dittohead rightists to justify the pre-planned massacres and destruction that followed.

As for what Hamas was doing, less is known about that than the facts that the IDF had been "terminating" (you prefer that?) people in Gaza throughout the whole of the cease-fire. My guess would be a tunnel, but I've seen no evidence one way or another. Maybe you have some?

The fact is that the "assassinations" (you prefer that?) were carried out within Gaza, not within Israel when the alleged kidnappers emerged from the alleged tunnel while attempting some sort of nefarious or scary action. If a tunnel was being built and had been discovered, that would have been a rational and politically advantageous PR opportunity. If the goal was to finally destroy the truce in PR preparation and grooming of the gullible for a mass slaughter of Gazans, the action they actually took would be the preferred one.

And thanks for acknowledging that your assertion that the Wiki article paragraphs I citied were full of falsehoods and broken links and then just one bad link (which wasn't). Shows honor and a willingness to learn.

Oh wait, you didn't.

[oberliner]

136. I appreciate your response

With respect to the Wikipedia page you linked to, I wrote that the Wikipedia link was riddled with problems (not errors). The problems included several footnotes that have non-working links (not just in that paragraph - which had one non-working link for me, but in the entire entry), working links that do not support the information contained in the paragraph, and a final sentence that does not make sense (possibly due to the inclusion of an extra word).

In any case, people are free to do their own research and determine what they believe occurred during the time frame we are discussing and which actions they feel may or may not have been justified.

I reiterate my personal feelings, that Israel's invasion of Gaza should not have happened and I was completely opposed to it at the time.

I was always opposed to Hamas's decision to end the cease fire with a barrage of rocket attacks on the day after the six month term had expired.

My hope was that, in spite of the violations of the cease fire that occurred on both sides, cooler heads could've prevailed and a way of maintaining the degree of calm that existed ought to have been found.

What happened instead, I am sure we can both agree, was not good for anyone.

[oberliner]

48. Which West Bank towns and villages are comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto? nt

[Chulanowa]

60. Bi'lin, Al Walaja, and Qalandiya just off the top of my head

Do a little research, chuckles. Feigning innocent ignorance is unbecoming on you.

[oberliner]

64. An average of 3,000 people per month died of starvation in the Warsaw Ghetto

About 100,000 of the 400,000 residents of the Warsaw Ghetto died of starvation and disease over a 2 year period.

An additional 250,000 were deported to death camps and murdered.

Over the course of three years, approximately 350,000 of the 400,000 residents of the Warsaw Ghetto died of starvation/disease or were killed in extermination camps.

Comparing the conditions in the villages you named to the conditions of the Warsaw Ghetto under Nazi Germany is obscene.

[Chulanowa]

79. You're making a common mistake

"Comparing" is not the same as "equating," Oberliner. I do not equate the two, simply note the valid comparison.

However, you raise an interesting notion, with your use of numbers.

650,000 Jews died as a result of Warsaw. You won't find me arguing about this.
nearly ten times that number of Jews were murdered during the Holocaust; again, another number you're not going to find me disputing.

You say that, because of these numbers, comparing the conditions is "obscene."

There are 1,644 people in the walled-in village of Walajeh.
There are only about four million Palestinians.

No matter what's visited on them, it's numerically impossible for Palestinian numbers to match those suffered by the Jewish people of Europe during the Holocaust; ergo, no matter what is done to them, drawing any comparison between the suffering of the two peoples is eternally going to be "obscene," isn't it? Because of "the numbers" it will be eternally impossible to admit that walling up entire towns and villages is a bad thing, and has very clear parallels to the Jewish and Roma Ghettos of Europe.

What's obscene, Oberliner, is that you are using the suffering of the Jewish people to justify the suffering of the Palestinians.

You tell me; If Mordechaj Anielewicz were to see Bi'lin, or Walajeh, or any of the others, what do you think he would say? If you were to put Dawid Moryc Apfelbaum into the midst of one of these towns, what do you suppose he would do? Could you honestly imagine Henryk Iwański supporting the notion of putting whole towns behind nine meters of concrete?

[oberliner]

91. It is not a mistake

Let me respond to your points, and I ask you to at least take the time to consider my response before dismissing it.

Nazi Germany conducted a program of systemic state-sponsored extermination of millions of people including six million Jews, among which were approximately 90 percent of the Jews of Poland.

With respect to the Warsaw Ghetto, thousands died every month and thousands more were sent to death camps and murdered. The result was that approximately 90 percent of the residents of the Warsaw Ghetto died of starvation/disease or were killed.

When you draw a comparison between Israel's actions with respect to a West Bank village and Nazi Germany's actions with respect to Warsaw, you are making a link between the Israeli government and that of Nazi Germany.

Since we are all aware of the massive genocide and extermination campaign carried out by the government of Nazi Germany, any comparison to that regime is going to carry with it the weight of that knowledge and understanding.

If you reflect on the realities of life in the Warsaw Ghetto, the significant monthly loss of life due to starvation, and the eventual deportation of its residents to death camps, I hope that you can understand why a comparison with one of the West Bank villages you mentioned is obscene.

Many people and organizations do an outstanding job of pointing out the unfair injustices related to the Israeli occupation, specifically with respect to the way the separation barrier has cut off entire villages from the rest of the West Bank, and the numerous checkpoints that have made life a nightmare for so many Palestinians, to say nothing of the evictions and home demolitions.

The point can be effectively made without resorting to trying to link the government of Israel with Nazi Germany.

[Ozymanithrax]

3. After the mall they can drink coffee by the beach, but the women can not smoke... n/t

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x328077

Since Egypt ended their own blockade, it seems free market "capitalism" is gong to take off in the Gaza.

http://blog.taragana.com/politics/2010/06/07/declaring-gaza-blockade-a-failure-egypt-says-it-will-keep-its-border-open-indefinitely-41952/

[Chulanowa]

5. I share your puzzlement

Considering that Israel's been very up-front about not letting building materials into Gaza, this is very strange indeed.

Additionally the only carriers of the story are dedicatedly pro-Israel outlets and blogs, with a single FOXnews blog also mentioning it. There appear to be only four pictures, period.

I noticed that the official website is hosted in Scranton, PA... but considering the Palestinian National Internet naming Authority is hosted in Miami, I guess that's not too very odd.

Head-scratcher.

Taken at face value though, I suppose now the one point five million Gazans have a mall. I wonder if the restaurant will open a franchise there?

[azurnoir]

10. the mall lookes as though it was rehabed from existing buildings

to me that does not take much in the way of materials

[shira]

11. and your evidence for that claim is _______________?

Regardless, if this mall can be built so can homes.

Even mud homes that last 100 years...
http://www.irinnews.org/photogallery/Gaza_mud_brick_houses_Mar2010/index.html

[azurnoir]

14. my evidence is your photographs

which clearly show that the exterior is not new construction and the link only backs that up
only the simple minded would believe that the materials if any that went into this mall would house the 50,000 that IDF left homeless during OCL or that one mall in a population of 1.5 million is proof of anything

[shira]

17. So you have no evidence. Just your opinion. Got it.

[azurnoir]

18. the pictures you posted are evidence enough n/t

[shira]

21. Well of course your unsupported opinion is evidence enough, for you. No surprise there.

[azurnoir]

24. your own pictures support my claim did you not look before you posted? n/t

[shira]

31. Looks like the mall is put together with string and glue to me.

Now which sources can you point to, or what evidence do you have to support your claim?

Any at all? :shrug:

Also, look at these mud homes. Does it look like mud to you, recycled building, string and glue? How can you tell?
http://www.irinnews.org/photogallery/Gaza_mud_brick_houses_Mar2010/index.html

[Chulanowa]

62. Question, about the mall photographs

These are the pictures of the mall's grand opening, yes? I see lots of people; Possibly around two hundred covered in the whole sequence of shots. I see lots of merchandise on the shelves.

Where are the shopping bags?

Lots of people, lots of stuff to buy... and apparently no bridge over the gap between the two. The article does say that lots of people are showing up just for the sights and the air conditioning. But you'd figure someone would be lugging around a bag from GazaGAP or whatever (Bath and Baklawa?) If these are promo photos, the the owners are going to want to go "Hey, people are buying my stuff!"

But it doesn't look like anyone is buying anything.

70% unemployment. $600 GDP per capita. People are showing up at a cramped "mall" just to sightsee and enjoy something as basic as air conditioning.

There's this town in North Korea. I can't for the life of me remember it's name (call me culturally insensitive, but everything in Korea sounds like the Teletubbies named it). In this town there's a tea shop. It's got a huge selection of tea, from all around the world. In the back it has a wide range of liquors, also from around the world. Loose tea, bag tea, instant teas, even. Brandies, wines, even American whiskey. It's got great amenities; lots of tables, comfortable chairs, a fireplace, very highbrow, bed and breakfast kind of feel to the place. It's a store that wouldn't be out of place here in the Seattle area. Of course... nobody can afford any of these teas or beverages in this town. It's fucking North Korea, you're lucky you can afford that nitrogen-oxygen mixture you inflate your lungs with at regular intervals. The only reason this tea shop exists is for the North Korean government to demonstrate to the rare tourists that North Korea has a magnificent tea shop, and that the situation in North Korea are actually very good, despite the "lies of the imperialist American media." It's part of the official tour, in fact. So despite the fact that most of the town is equal parts moss and rust, there's a magnificent tea shop, with a lovely young lady who works there and never, ever sees anyone unless there are approved tourists, who will happily (desperately, perhaps) serve you any tea you wish, and play a game of ping pong with you. She has no name, she's just "the tea girl." And you're meant to come away with the notion that, hey, North Korea's an alright place!

[shira]

66. Yes, the owners of shops in the mall just opened for business knowing there wouldn't be any.

:eyes:

[Chulanowa]

73. The photographer just happened to miss everyone shopping?

:shrug:

Oh well. At least they have a swimming pool in their little camp, right?

[oberliner]

76. This website has some additional photos of the Gaza mall

Included are photos of people buying things and carrying shopping bags.

http://safaimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/LATEST-NEWS/G0000iykpQWXOCgU/I0000dqo.AF61Lq8

Photos 282-289.

[Chulanowa]

80. That's better

Gazans seem to make great use of available space; that place looks immense. Not bad for 9700 square feet.

[oberliner]

83. Not sure what you mean by your comments

Are you suggesting the photos are fake? Are you being sarcastic?

[Chulanowa]

85. Nope.

I'm saying they're making great use of space.

Sometimes, Oberliner, a cigar really is a cigar.

[oberliner]

88. It would appear that we agree

I noticed that too - I apologize for thinking you were being snarky in some way.

[polly7]

44. ??? at the support Israel t-shirt pop up before I could read your link.

9700 sq. feet is not a 'luxury mall', it's one floor of a McCain home.

How does it compare to the 'luxury malls' in Israel?

http://www.israelmalls.net/mallresults.asp

This is a lame attempt to promote the falsehood that life isn't miserable, hunger-filled and horrible for the 1.5 million trapped in despair in the Gaza prison.

"The collapse of the Gaza economy has led to a dramatic increase in poverty. An ICRC household survey conducted in May 2008 showed that, even then, over 70 per cent of Gazans were living in poverty, with monthly incomes of less than 250 US dollars for a family of 7 to 9 members (1 dollar per household member per day, excluding the value of humanitarian assistance which they may receive). Up to 40 per cent of Gaza families are very poor; with a monthly income of under 120 dollars (0.5 dollar per household member per day). On average, each person who does work – whether as a paid employee or running their own business – has to support their immediate family of 6-7 people and a few members of their extended family.

This increase in poverty has taken a heavy toll on the population's diet. Many families have been forced to cut household expenses to survival levels. Generally, people are getting the calories they need, but only a few can afford a healthy and balanced diet. Poor families often substitute cheaper alternatives such as cereals, sugar and oil for fruits, vegetables, meat and fish. For tens of thousands of children, this has resulted in deficiencies in iron, vitamin A and vitamin D. The likely consequences include stunted growth of bones and teeth, difficulty in fighting off infections, fatigue and a reduced capacity to learn."

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/palestine-report-260609

How many Gazans will be able to use this 'luxury mall' when 4 in 5 depend on foreign aid just to survive?

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01

[oberliner]

47. Your links are out of date

Israel Eases Gaza Blockade, Will Allow In All Goods Except For Weapons

JERUSALEM — Israel's government decided Sunday to draw up a list of items banned from Gaza limited to weapons and materials deemed to have military uses and said the easing of the three-year-old blockade of the Palestinian territory would be implemented immediately.

The list of banned goods replaces an old list of allowed items that permitted only basic humanitarian supplies for the 1.5 million Gazans. Under the new system, the government said practically all non-military items can enter Gaza freely.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/20/israel-eases-gaza-blockade_n_618716.html

Gaza economy seeing limited recovery

Washington – Israel will transfer NIS 100 million to Gaza banks, which are suffering a cash shortage following an economic upswing in response to an eased Gaza blockade, Ynet News reported Wednesday.

http://palestinenote.com/cs/blogs/news/archive/2010/07/21/gaza-economy-seeing-modest-recovery.aspx

[polly7]

49. The information in them is still relevant.

No thanks to your Huffpo link, I just read another opinion there implying the 'luxury mall' shows Gazan children really aren't suffering from food deprivation and poverty.

'Limited recovery' ........ well, I should hope so. It really couldn't have gotten much worse. Any idea how much this 'limited recovery' has improved the lives of Palestinian children who make up nearly half the Gazan population? 'Your links are out of date' might mean something if you had current figures for the information posted in them, and how much this limited recovery has changed the numbers?

Pardon me all to heck if I don't take the Israeli gov'ts word as gospel that 'practically all non-military items can enter Gaza freely'. I'll believe that when I see evidence of it actually happening.

[oberliner]

50. Agreed

But there has been some progress made since the recent easing of the blockade. Some of the actions called for in your ICRC link have been implemented by Israel in the last month.

The ICRC and Amnesty International, however, are both calling for a full lifting of the blockade in all respects, not just the "easing" that Israel has agreed to of late (though they acknowledge that the recent steps are welcome changes).

[polly7]

51. A full lifting of the blockade is the only acceptable outcome.

The damage done already done to these people, especially the children, under occupation is horrible. No society can be self-sustainable and healthy under military occupation.

[oberliner]

52. Gaza is not under military occupation

The Hamas government rules in Gaza without Israeli involvement.

There are, in fact, no IDF forces or Israelis of any kind in Gaza.

That said, Israel and Egypt do control access points into and out of the territory and have been engaging in a seige/blockade since the Hamas takeover which, I agree with you, ought to be lifted, or at the very least, even more drastically eased.

[polly7]

53. True, not occupation. A case of fingers faster than brain here.

Imprisonment enforced by a foreign military would be what I should have wrote.

[Jim Sagle]

84. Excellent news.

[shira]

93. The new Gaza Museum / Cultural Center with Restaurant

http://www.almathaf.ps/

[azurnoir]

107. more about the museum

Al-Mathaf’s current facility is located on 1,200 square meters of a 4,500 square meter plot of land and represents the first phase of development. Al-Mathaf has been open to the public since August of 2008 and its current facilities include the museum showroom, restaurant-café, terrace, green outdoor gardens, and children’s courts.

http://www.almathaf.ps/en-about.php

As of mid-August, Al-Mathaf awaits the reopening of Gaza’s crossing points, which continue to be closed. Its museum has yet to receive about 325 major articles to be shipped back from Geneva where they are on exhibit at the Museum of History and Art. The restaurant awaits all the equipment and silverware it needs in order to operate properly, and the entire establishment awaits several goods and services that have been held up by the continuing closure. However, in a way, Al-Khoudary’s diligent collection of materials and antiquities that were needed to build and fit Al-Mathaf enabled him to finish construction under crippling circumstances and, thus, circumvent the long-time siege of Gaza. Knowing Jawdat and how seriously he works, it will only be a short time before Al-Mathaf actually opens.

http://www.thisweekinpalestine.com/details.php?id=2565&ed=157&edid=157

The museum was planned to be sponsored by UNESCO, and to be funded by a board of Palestinian trustees. It receives scientific and technical support from the Museums Division of the city of Geneva.<2>

The New York Times describes the museum building, made partly of stones recovered from old houses, old railroad ties and marble columns discovered by Gazan fishermen and construction workers, as "stunning".<1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Museum_of_Archaeology

[ConsAreLiars]

98. Apart from the idiocy of suggesting that some place selling luxury goods is "proof" of

anything about the general living conditions of the population or how they have changed since the policy of collective punishment was intensified, apart from that extraordinarily stupid example of blind tribalism and denialism, you might want to quit reading now since a visitor posted something rather different about that place:

"I found out about the Gaza mall. Yes it exists. The goods in there are very expensive and it's not a real mall, barely bigger than a little supermarket. It has 4 sections, one sells vegetables grown in Gaza, the 2nd section sells clothes and shoes, a 3rd section is like a huge supermarket with things brought to Gaza through the tunnels, and the last sells electric materials, TVs, stereos... The owners are very rich people in the Gaza Strip. Most of the stuff being sold are either made in Gaza, or brought via tunnels. And there are no thousands visitors, when I went there, I saw about 15-20 people only."

From: http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/the-gaza-shopping-mall-reality-and-hasbara

(edit typos)

[shira]

102. The new mall, museum/cultural center shows Hamas investing in what it believes is important

Billions of dollars in aid over the years have been used for purposes other than homes and infrastructure (like weapons, luxury items, assorted corruption). Like any other country, elites get or remain rich as they screw the poor. Gaza is no different.

These new structures prove there is cement and concrete available for housing the unfortunates who still remain in tents.

Mud houses are just as good too...
http://www.irinnews.org/photogallery/Gaza_mud_brick_houses_Mar2010/index.html

[azurnoir]

108. how many times will you post the same link? n/t

[shira]

111. About mud houses? What's Hamas' holdup in building more?

Oh yeah, they have better things to spend their hard earned cash on...
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.palpress.ps%2Farabic%2Findex.php%3Fmaa%3DReadStory%26ChannelID%3D75544&sl=ar&tl=en

[azurnoir]

114. so an article concerning Hamas investigating corruption within its ranks

is proof of??????????????????

[shira]

115. That's not Hamas investigating itself, and it shows Hamas spends money as they wish

...not necessarily in order to help Palestinians who still live in tents, or to address water/sewage concerns, etc.

[azurnoir]

116. still trying to "misle" from your link

Sources close to the Office of the movement's political in Damascus for "politics", said yesterday that members of the Bureau, led by Khaled Meshaal, held in recent weeks, emergency meetings several with a view to develop a plan to address the state of corruption prevailing in the Gaza Strip, which appeared in its ugliest forms through periodic reports received by the Office Damascus about what is going on

[shira]

117. the article about Hamas corruption was from media loyal to Abbas n/t

[shira]

103. The Gaza Grand Palace Hotel

http://www.grandpalace.ps/

Check out the "photo gallery".

[azurnoir]

109. did Hamas build this too?

Grand Palace Hotel: Grand Palace hotel Gaza

they have a good service staff, nice suite with a direct beach view, colored tv with international channels, delicious food.

great beach view, air condition.

* Add to Your Trip Planner
* Related To: Budget Travel, Business Travel, Romantic Travel and Honeymoons
* Written August 17, 2004

http://www.virtualtourist.com/hotels/Middle_East/Palestine/Gaza_Strip/Gaza-1865919/Hotels_and_Accommodations-Gaza-BR-1.html

[shira]

112. Goes to show rich and poor sections exist in every country. n/t

[shira]

104. The Gaza Aldeira Hotel

http://www.aldeira.ps/en/main.html

Check out the "tour".

[azurnoir]

110. quite a tour there for this hotel

And despite all the trouble and difficulties of life in this war-torn strip of land, business is thriving. The motto of the 22-room Al Deira Hotel is "your home in Gaza."

Opened in May 2000, just a few months before the second intifada, or Palestinian uprising, it was an inauspicious time to open a business here. According to the larger-than-life general manager Samir Skaik, it hasn't gotten any easier.

"It's getting harder. We don't understand ourselves how we have managed to do it sometimes," Skaik said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/story?id=5211097&page

[shira]

113. Surprising that the evil Israelis didn't blow this up during OCL, isn't it? n/t

[polly7]

138. It probably won't take too long. And yes, it would be just as evil as

every other building they've bombed, bulldozed ... some with people inside, some not. I don't exclude anything at all when it comes to their sense of entitlement and brutality towards a people with no real means to defend themselves. Hopefully we'll see a Security Coucil some day with equal representation of the two.

[shira]

139. Do you think it's state policy for Israel to bomb civilians and civilian buildings...

....which serve no military purpose - as though Hamas isn't firing from there, etc?

[shira]

140. Hamas is preparing to create the largest mall in Gaza!

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ar&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fpnp.net%2Far%2Fnews%2F61865_%25D8%25AD%25D9%2585%25D8%25A7%25D8%25B3_%25D8%25AA%25D8%25B3%25D8%25AA%25D8%25B9%25D8%25AF_%25D9%2584%25D8%25A5%25D9%2586%25D8%25B4%25D8%25A7%25D8%25A1_%25D8%25A7%25D9%2583%25D8%25A8%25D8%25B1_%25D9%2585%25D9%2588%25D9%2584_%25D8%25A8%25D8%25BA%25D8%25B2%25D8%25A9%21.html

Gaza - Firas Press: Detect and Works Minister in the deposed Hamas government Yusuf forgotten that his ministry is preparing a project for a shopping mall on an area of 44 dunums heart of Gaza City, is the largest of its kind in the Gaza Strip.

Mansi said in a press statement that it had been officially received the land brigades in Gaza and remained a fraction of the building of national security, and some studies and charts for the next phase after the demolition process initiated by the ministry to implement the first phase of the implementation phases of the project. "

He added that he "will be distributed in the area of land so that the brigades are allocated spaces for gardens and a huge shopping mall and Thagakip centers and corridors of the underground and on the sides."

[azurnoir]

141. Isn't that the same area that Israel refused to allow UNRWA to build schools in

thanks for proving Israel's claims that it was a Hamas training center false

[shira]

142. I have no idea what you're going on about in your conversation with yourself....

....but this goes to show that the economic situation within Gaza can't be as bad as advertised.

Otherwise, shop owners in this new big mall are stupid for opening businesses and selling goods no one can afford.

[azurnoir]

143. well seeing as how you replied the "conversation" is no longer with myself as you put it

but I digress and really I am surprised surprised you did not know about Israel's refusal to allow UNRWA to build a school in Gaza City for the safety of the children of course but to further inform

Exclusive: 'No' to UNRWA school ‘near Hamas base'

The United Nations Relief and Work Agency asked for permission to build several schools in the Tel al-Hawa neighborhood in southern Gaza City, according to details obtained by The Jerusalem Post.

The request was submitted to the Defense Ministry in line with current Israeli policy to approve international projects in Gaza after they have received the approval of donor nations and the Palestinian Authority.

Since Israel eased the blockade on the Gaza Strip in July, the office of the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories has approved 70 international projects – including the renovation of a sewage treatment plant, the construction of 151 housing units and eight new schools.

But when the Defense Ministry received the UNRWA request for the new schools and checked their planned location, defense officials said they were alarmed to discover that the UN had planned to build the schools adjacent to a Hamas military installation.

<snip>

The Defense Ministry contacted UNRWA and asked if it was aware that Hamas maintained a military installation nearby. The answer the Defense Ministry received was “yes,” according to Israeli officials, with UNRWA acknowledging that Hamas had allocated the land for the schools.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=192368

how thoughtful to have only the safety of Gaza's children in mind, it is not like Israel would ever deny Gaza's young people a chance at education

well except

UNRWA response to Jerusalem Post article

25 October 2010

Dear Sir,

UNRWA response to Jerusalem Post articleYour story of Friday, “No to UNRWA school near Hamas base”, should have been headlined “No to UNRWA schools replacing former Hamas base”.

The Israeli authorities are denying UNRWA permission to build two schools in a heavily built-up residential area of Gaza City allegedly because the site of the proposed schools is next to a Hamas installation. This is completely false.

In fact there was a pre-Cast Lead Hamas base at the site in question (a former Palestinian Authority security base) which was completely destroyed by Israeli air strikes in Cast Lead. When UNRWA subsequently, and with the support of the local community, made plans to build the two new schools and secured the site, Hamas removed the last makeshift shack they had established adjacent to the area.

<snip>

Again, I provide photographs of the site totally destroyed by the Israeli military as well as photos of the surrounding areas clearly showing them to be residential. I challenge Mr Katz to provide UNRWA and your readers with the exact address and current photographs of the alleged “Hamas military installation”. If he fails to do this, he must stand guilty of being used by his IDF sources yet again of purveying falsehoods about UNRWA’s humanitarian work in Gaza; work which, as I have argued many times in these pages, is in Israel’s interests.

http://www.unrwa.org/etemplate.php?id=832

now I became curious about you piece on the new Gaza mall so I Googled the title and first up was this it is from a site I'm not sure you would familiar with or approve of, but it is somewhat clearer than the Google translation of Arabic

New Mall Planned for Gaza

Hamas has announced that a new mall will be built in the Gaza Strip. Yusuf Mansi, Minister of Housing and Public Works of the Hamas government in the Gaza Strip, told Gaza-based news agency Safa on Thursday that his office is currently on a plan to build a new mall. The 44-acre mall will be located in Gaza City and will be the largest shopping center in the Strip, said Mansi.

The mall will be built on land that was established in 1929 by the British Mandate as the region’s military headquarters, and as of 1948 served as the headquarters of the Egyptian military governor. Beginning in 1967 the same land served as headquarters of the Israeli military governor until the establishment of the Palestinian Authority in 1994, which turned the place into its security headquarters. The area was bombed by the Israeli Air Force during Operation Cast Lead in December of 2008 and was almost completely destroyed.

According to the report, a decision to destroy the security headquarters was arrived at already in July 2008 by Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyah.The demolition by Israel only caused the preparations for new construction on the land to speed up. Several months before the Gaza war, a workshop was held to discuss the proposed development plans. The workshop was attended by representatives from universities and municipalities as well as by investors. During a recent cabinet meeting held on October 26, the Ministry of Housing and Public Works was given the task of taking over the area and conduct research in preparation for the execution of the building plan. Mansi told Safa said that contacts are being made at the present time with potential investors, and in any case the intention is to rent the commercial space and not sell them.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/140470

seems those plans have been on the drawing board for awhile