Guilty Until Proven Guilty

[shira]

Guilty Until Proven Guilty

The uproar over Israel's actions aboard a Gaza-bound vessel proves that the world holds the Jewish state to an impossibly high standard. For their own sake, Americans should think twice about joining this flood of international condemnation.

BY DAVID BROG | JUNE 9, 2010




On the evening of April 28, 2003, a crowd of approximately 200 Iraqi civilians gathered outside U.S. Army headquarters in Fallujah to protest the occupation of their city. As tension grew, U.S. soldiers from the 82nd Airborne stationed on the building's roof began firing upon the crowd, killing at least 13 Iraqis and wounding more than 70. U.S. troops insisted that they fired only to defend themselves from gunfire coming from the crowd. The protesters claimed that they were unarmed and never fired at the soldiers.

The odds are that you have never beaten your breast or searched your soul over this incident in Fallujah. In fact, you have likely never even heard of this incident. And the odds are that you have never heard of the tens if not hundreds of incidents like it, in which civilians have been killed as U.S. soldiers fought in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past decade.

But the odds are overwhelming that you have heard -- repeatedly -- of an Israeli operation last week aboard a Gaza-bound ship in the Mediterranean. Israel's naval commandos, several of whom were beaten to within an inch of their lives, responded with lethal force, killing nine people.

The term "double standard" does not sufficiently capture this phenomenon. It's not just that the Israelis are being held to a different -- and immeasurably higher -- standard than the rest of humanity. Israel is now being judged in the absence of any objective standard whatsoever. As Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said last week, it seems that Israel is now "guilty until proven guilty."

more...
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/06/09/guilty_until_proven_guilty

[howard112211]

1. The US conduct of the Iraq war gets critcized day in and day out here.

So no, there is no "double standard" there. There was and is plenty of outrage. Look up the posts following the release of the "Wikileaks" video.

[shira]

3. Within the USA generally, and outside the USA there is a double-standard

Whether it's EU condemnation, the UN, etc.... outrage directed at the USA and UK for its conduct in Iraq pales in comparison to Israel.

[howard112211]

4. Show me a person in the US that criticizes Isreal but was for the Iraq war.

I bet such people are rare.

There were huge crowds protesting the Iraq war in the US and Europe. Against Israel, not even close.

[shira]

5. Come on, even here at DU the outrage WRT the Marmara dwarfs that of the episode in Fallujah

....mentioned at the beginning of the FP article cited in the OP.

The pure vitriol and hate on display here aimed at Israel for its actions the past decade dwarfs that which is aimed at the USA for its role in the deaths of 100,000 Iraqis. For some reason, the actions undertaken by Israel animates people here moreso than actions the US takes in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan where the destruction is 100x worse.

[howard112211]

6. Outrage usually happens when the outrageous moment is happening.

There was outrage when Fallujah happened. There was outrage about Abu Ghraib. There was outrage about Hadidtha and there was outrage about the recent Wikileaks video.

It lies in the nature of outrage that it does not last forever. It dies down as time passes. The Marmara event is fresh. In a few weeks it will have died down as well.

As for other examples, Iran etc., there is not much need for outrage there, because Iran is already an "outcast" on the international stage. Outrage generally happens when people see injustice. In the case of Iran, "justice" is being delivered from the highest level in form of sanctions. Moreover, Iran is not a democracy and does not get treated preferential in any way. So in some sense, Iran is already getting hit by the full force of collective "outrage" in the form of government actions.

I don't think it is very wise to ask people to hold Israel to the same standards as Iran or North Korea. If that were the case, that would mean no travel visa, no monetary aid, and international shunning.

edit: I think much of the outrage is not directed at the acts themselves, but at the unquestionably biased responses you get from the US media and government. When was the last time you heard US senators defending China's actions against Tibet?

[shira]

9. Drone attacks in Pakistan. Imagine the outrage if it were Israel. I rest my case.

[howard112211]

33. And close to zero posts defending drone attacks or advocating them.

And if, then usually by people who end up teh tombstone.

As I have mentioned beforehand, a huge portion of the outrage is directed at the armada of people who swarm out everytime such an incident happens to rub it in everyones face how justified and legal and necessary it all is and how everyone who disagrees hates Jews.

Israel could have simply said "Sorry Turkey, we fucked up". Even the USA does that when it accidentally bombs civilians. Even when you think you are in the right, towards an ally this is usually a good gesture. Not Israel though. They boast about it all over the media, claim moral high ground and try to establish that those people on the boats were all Al Quaeda terrorists.

[shira]

35. No, it's an indifference to drone attacks and other major incidents worldwide that's the problem

Those who condemn Israel are usually FAR more animated and prone to exaggerate WRT Israel than on any other current events.

Look up the incident in the OP's very first paragraph. Compare the DU response here or world response in general to the flotilla incident (which has been overblown and exaggerated, given all that's known about the role of the IHH and all the video evidence). Compare also to N.Korea recently sinking a S.Korean ship.

In fact, within the last few weeks the Al Qaeda #3 leader was taken out by the US, along with his wife, kids and immediate family. Imagine Israel doing that. In fact, compare outrage here and elsewhere at that incident with Israel's alleged role in the Dubai killing of a known terrorist.

Come on now.

[azurnoir]

10. Your claim is false shira

I did an advanced search of DU in Lastest breaking and General discussion forums with the dates Nov7, 2004 to Nov21 2004 ie while it was happening and using the same time period that has passed since the Flotilla incident using the word Fallujah and came up a total of 841 threads. I think that represents quite a bit of outrage unless of course you will claim that DUer's were supporting US actions

[elias7]

13. Totally disingenuous and false

First, you've looked up a search period related to a mosque incident, not the incident shira refers to.

Second, <5% of the posts of that period with the search term "fallujah" are relevant to the incident.

Third, I don't see how "islamonline" as a news source compares to the mass coverage of the flotilla incident.

If you're going to make such a strong refutation, you should be less sloppy

[azurnoir]

14. perhaps you need to check your history

The battle of Fallujah took place in November and December of 2004, my search covered the first 2 weeks of that battle as to your claims of some "lslamoline" wtf are you talking about I did a DU advanced search on this site

[elias7]

30. I stand by my post

First, the battle of fallujah is hardly equatable with the incident the OP refers to, and hardly relevant to the flotilla incident.

Second, I did an advanced search with your terms and <50% of the posts were relevant, many from sources like "islam online" and other such massive media outlets, and most posts had only a smattering of responses. In general very tepid compared to the flotilla incident. (I do see that I made a typo of <5% earlier...sorry about that).

Again, I don't see how you make this comparison and legitimately say you have disproven the OP. I think a more compelling argument would be if you did a news search outside of DU (which only goes back to 2004 for searches) to evaluate how the media in general treated the Fallujah killings of April 2003 (the incident that the OP refers to) and the flotilla incident. I think the OP would bear up to that kind of fair comparison.

[azurnoir]

11. And yet more proof

I did the same search in General Discussion, Lastest Breaking, and Israel Palestine forums on DU using the Dates May31 2010 to June13 2010 and the word Flotilla as the parameters and came up with 572 threads guess your claim is demonstrably false

[shira]

15. Compare the flotilla incident to US drone attacks in Pakistan or the incident from the OP (post #0)

No contest, right?

[azurnoir]

17. From what time period shira ? 2 weeks back?

the drone flights have been going for a long time so the search would not be comparable you brought up a major incident and made false claims

[shira]

18. Try the major incident in post #0 (the OP).....how about an independent investigation into that one?

As for drones, try this...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17343

LAHORE: Afghanistan-based US predators carried out a record number of 12 deadly missile strikes in the tribal areas of Pakistan in January 2010, of which 10 went wrong and failed to hit their targets, killing 123 innocent Pakistanis.

If that had been Israel, can you imagine world outrage?

[azurnoir]

20. can we assume someone has already done this for you?

I am betting so, could not guess who it would be either but these attacks happened during all of January not just a 2 week period so fail

[azurnoir]

21. There 333 threads on drone attacks in January HOWEVER

while there are more Flotilla threads and comments a goodly portion of those are supporting Israels actions not so I would believe in the case of the drone attacks

[shira]

22. For that one incident you want to compare, I pointed to the OP in #0. What of that one?

[azurnoir]

24. lol still trying? n/t

[shira]

still obfuscating?

[azurnoir]

25. Post 0? n/t

[shira]

26. In the OP, first 2 paragraphs.

[azurnoir]

27. I came up with zero- using the criteria Fallujah, Iraq, and Bush

separately and the time frame of 4/29/03 to 5/13/03 so there is either a glitch in the advanced search function or no one discussed any of those topics Iraq, Bush, or Fallujah in that time period on the General Discussion or LBN forums take your pick

[shira]

28. see if you can find any DU threads about that incident and let's see the comments

[azurnoir]

29. As I already said I could not find any on that incident or Iraq or Bush

for the prescribed time period

[azurnoir]

31. The DU archives have been temporarily disabled

which may be why one can not find any threads

[shira]

2. Israel, human decency, common humanity (by Eve Garrard)

Fintan O'Toole thinks that Israel regards itself as 'exempt from the demands of common humanity' (via Z Word Blog). Iain Banks thinks that 'simple human decency' means nothing to Israel (see this normblog post).

Two well-known writers, very anxious to tell the world that Israel lacks humanity. Israel's not like the rest of us, the rest of the human family. Compared to other nations, it's inhuman. It doesn't recognize what everyone else knows about, the simple requirements of being decently human. It ought to recognize these things, it isn't hard to do so, since they're so simple; and most other people do, since they're part of common humanity.

Leave aside the sinister provenance of that claim, and let's just consider it on its own.

Turkey has killed between 30,000 and 40,000 Kurds in the last 30 years; it occupies North Cyprus; it blockades Armenia and denies its own historical genocide. But Israel lacks simple human decency.

Sri Lanka, at the same time that Israel was fighting in Gaza (around 1300 dead) killed about 25,000 of its own civilians in the course of repressing an insurgency. But Israel thinks it's exempt from the demands of common humanity.

Sudan has killed something in the order of 200,000 people in Darfur, with countless rapes and tortures alongside. But Israel lacks simple human decency.

Iran rapes and tortures and murders its own dissidents who ask for democracy; it hangs young gays, it oppresses women. But Israel thinks it's exempt from the demands of common humanity.

<snip>

Now, here's one especially for Iain Banks: the USA and the UK initiate a war in Iraq in which more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians are killed. But Israel thinks it's exempt from the demands of common humanity.

France trained and armed the Hutu genocidaires who killed around 800,000 civilians in the Rwanda genocide, and continued to protect them even as they lost power to the incoming Tutsis. But Israel lacks simple human decency.

more...
http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2010/06/israel-human-decency-common-humanity-by-eve-garrard.html

[Tripmann]

7. LOL!

"LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!!"

[FarrenH]

8. ^ That

[Jefferson23]

12. David Brog:

snip* David Brog is the Executive Director of Christians United For Israel (CUFI), an American pro-Israel Christian organization, and author of Standing With Israel: Why Christians Support the Jewish State. An American Jew, Brog is an active proponent of stronger Jewish-Christian relations, particularly with regard to support of Israel.

Mr. Brog worked in the United States Senate for seven years, rising to be chief of staff to Senator Arlen Specter and staff director of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Prior to his time on Capitol Hill, Brog served as an executive at America Online and practiced corporate law both in Israel and the United States. Brog is a graduate of Princeton University and Harvard Law School.<1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brog

Christians United for Israel

snip* Christians United for Israel (CUFI) is an American pro-Israel Christian organization based that defines itself as "a national grassroots movement focused on the support of Israel"<1> and supports its existence through passages from the Christian Bible.<2> Operating under the leadership of John Hagee, it provides a national association through which churches, parachurch organizations, ministries, and individuals in America promote pro-Israelism financially and politically.

Executive Board
Pastor John C. Hagee, Founder and National Chairman, CUFI
Gary Bauer, President, American Values

David Brog, Executive Director, CUFI

Shari Dollinger Magnus, Associate Director, CUFI
Bishop Keith A Butler, Founder and Pastor, Word of Faith International Christian Center
Pastors Mac & Lynne Hammond, Senior Pastors, Living Word Christian Center
Michael Little, President and Chief Operating Officer, The Christian Broadcasting Network
Pastor George Morrison, Senior Pastor, Faith Bible Chapel<10>
Prior to his death in 2007, Rev. Jerry Falwell sat on the Executive Board. In early 2008, he was replaced in his seat by his son, Jonathan Falwell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians_United_For_Israel

[shira]

16. Shoot the messenger? How is he wrong?

[EFerrari]

19. Why is this horrible right wing crap being posted to DU?

[shira]

23. Since when is Foreign Policy "rightwing"?

[Jefferson23]

32. David Brog and Hagee are not right wing to you I guess, ok.

snip* Yet these same friends were completely unaware of the destruction wrought by America's armed forces in Fallujah less than two years after the April 2003 incident described above. The U.S. Army destroyed nearly one-fifth of the city -- and damaged far more -- in its effort to crush the insurgency that had taken root there.

Many of my friends are horrified by Israel's blockade of Hamas-controlled Gaza. Yet these same people never once questioned the United States' blockade of Saddam-controlled Iraq throughout most of the 1990s. They have no idea that America's enemies protested the U.S.-led blockade of Iraq in terms almost identical to those they now use to protest Israel's blockade of Gaza. In his 1996 fatwa declaring war on the United States, for example, Osama bin Laden claimed that "more than 600,000 Iraqi children have died due to lack of food and medicine and as a result of the unjustifiable aggression imposed on Iraq." In 1998, bin Laden again cited the blockade of Iraq and the "over 1 million" Iraqis the United States had killed there.

Who do you think he is referring to, someone on DU?


"The term "double standard" does not sufficiently capture this phenomenon"

So where is Brog calling for an international investigation?

[whosinpower]

34. Millions

Literally MILLIONS of people worldwide protested against the Iraq invasion. This author does not even make mention of that fact. Perhaps if Israel also voiced its dissent, perhaps this protest would of gained more credibility in the eyes of this author.

There was a loud public outcry over the Fallujah incident. Perhaps, because Israel did not voice any dissent - the author views it as silent consent. If memory serves me correctly - the Iraqi government forbid any mercenaries under the Blackwater name from working within the state after that horrific event. To suggest that there were no consequences is disingenuous, even if those consequences were not at the same level as the violation.

There was a loud public outcry over Abu Ghraib. Rumsfeld stepped down. People were fired. Perhaps because Israel did not voice dissent, the author views this as silent consent. And make no mistake - the public shame and anger at this, Fallujah and the Iraq invasion have led the GOP to a catastrophic failure at the polls - Obama won handily and overwhelmingly. Bush remains one of the most unpopular presidents of all time. To make matters more clear in terms of right wing leadership - the United States enjoys one of the deepest recessions in history. Obama inherited not one, but two unresolved wars, an economy broken and now an environmental disaster that makes the Alaskan disaster seem like a drop in the bucket.

If THAT is the standard that Israel so desperately looks to for its own policies, then it's destiny is not a happy one. Netanyahu seeks to insulate himself against criticism for his own political survival. But his own political survival is not tied to Israeli survival - as much as he would loudly and vociferously scream. That is what right wingers do. They cannot think beyond their own prejudices. And they cannot and will not face the consequences of their actions. Instead, they will desperately try to portray "the whole world is against us - look at us - we are just poor victims of anti-Semitism."

"waaaah - it isn't fair. The US gets to obliterate 1 million iraqi's, and we can't kill 16 guys without public condemnation."

News flash for you - if you think that the US is not in trouble, militarily, economically, and as a world power - then you trully are not paying attention. Then again, that is what happens to self absorbed victimhood reflection.