'I want to be a shahid': Flotilla activist hoped for martyrdom

[shira]

In its latest effort to win back world opinion after killing nine pro-Palestinians in a mid-ocean raid on Monday, the IDF has released a video of a Gaza-bound activist declaring his wish to become a shahid, or Muslim martyr.

Israel intercepted a convoy of six boats in international waters some 60 miles offshore in the early hours of Monday morning. Commandos had been equipped with riot gear for what was supposed to be a routine operation against protesters challenging Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip.

Instead troops met stiff resistance and eventually opened fire. Activists have claimed their intentions were entirely peaceful - but the IDF, as well as some analysts, has drawn links between a Turkish charity group that funded the flotilla and al-Qaida terrorists.

The army on Wednesday posted this video on the YouTube website to support its claims:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSAxAj2KIdU&feature=player_embedded

Source:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/i-want-to-be-a-shahid-flotilla-activist-hoped-for-martyrdom-1.293953

[IndianaGreen]

1. Another IDF PR production

These fuckers never rest!

[shira]

3. LOL. How'd they fake this one? Do tell.

[azurnoir]

5. well it's so nice that IDF is ready willing and eager to grant his wish huh

would you have any other way shira?

[shira]

7. Are those the words of an innocent peace activist? Did Israel just set out to murder an innocent

....guy like that?

[azurnoir]

12. already answered that one see #6 n/t

[EFerrari]

9. No kidding. They are taking the whole country over a cliff with them.

I don't believe the government is in good charge of these people or they would never be allowed to put out garbage while the world is looking for a way to resolve this terrible incident.

[shira]

15. Yeah, it's terrible that Israel is exposing anti-humanitarian pro-Hamas activists for who they are.

[IndianaGreen]

22. Your posts read an awful lot like the spin by Squealer of Animal Farm

[EFerrari]

23. Justifying killing and not very well, either. nt

[shira]

49. No, you're trying to portray Israel murdering innocent, passive peace activists for no reason

[Chulanowa]

2. And?

Giving one's life for a cause is generally seen as an honorable way to go.

[shira]

4. And....are those the words of an innocent peace activist?

[azurnoir]

6. He said he was willing to die not willing to kill thats IDF's role

so yes shira

[Chulanowa]

11. Actually, yeah

he realizes that he could very well get killed while participating in humanitarian activism. He has accepted this and if it comes, he welcomes it. It becoems a desirable way to go, that he has given his life for a good cause.

The freedom Riders had the same outlook. After Kent State many peace activists did, as well.

But they weren't Muslims, so I doubt you'd try to cast them as sinister and evil.

[azurnoir]

13. Not here anyway n/t

[shira]

14. In the context of I/P, martyr = suicide bomber, etc.... not noble at all.

[Chulanowa]

17. No, that's in the context of your own prejudices

[frylock]

18. in the context of I/P, condemning the IDF's actions = jew hater

[B Whale]

21. That's your bigoted context. why equate a muslim aid activist

who with a suicide bomber?? ...oh thats right they're all the fucking same these muslims...get them out of judea eh? fucking hell!

[shira]

27. Definition of shaheed...

Part of Speech Definition
Noun 1. Arabic term for holy martyrs; applied by Palestinians to suicide bombers
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/shaheed?cx=partner-pub-0939450753529744%3Av0qd01-tdlq&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=shaheed&sa=Search#906
===========

Noun 1. shaheed - Arabic term for holy martyrs; applied by Palestinians to suicide bombers
Arabic, Arabic language - the Semitic language of the Arabs; spoken in a variety of dialects
martyr, sufferer - one who suffers for the sake of principle
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shaheed
===========

1. shaheed 18 up, 7 down
buy shaheed mugs, tshirts and magnets
A Martyr killed in the name of Islam. Often terrorists believe they will become shaheed if they go an kill some innocent people with a bomb strapped around their chest. A more accurate definition of a shaheed would be a person who threw himself in front of a gunshot pointed toward a little baby (regardless of faith) because to protect the innocent (among other things) is Islaamic
the person who grabs the suicide bomber and blows themselves up before the bomber could get on the bus
by shattershawdy Jul 28, 2005 share this
2. shaheed 18 up, 12 down
buy shaheed mugs, tshirts and magnets
The truthful one
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shaheed
==========


What's bigoted and beyond disgusting is the deliberate and malicious attempt to demonize and dehumanize Israelis/Jews, despite extremely strong evidence proving such baseless claims to be little more than attempts to revive old antisemitic tropes and canards like the blood-libel, Jewish control of the media, governments, etc.

[B Whale]

30. 2 key things. Firstly

firstly, why are you equating aid activists with suicide bombers (as you know many imam's around the world have ruled it as unislamic, and as you know, and as i know, (i'll declare an interest here for you, i lived and worked in turkey for a year...i'm english....and my partner is turkish) that turkey is not a place or culture nor has the religosity or theocratic commitment to suicide bombings in any way...

so, why is this "the Semitic language of the Arabs; spoken in a variety of dialects
martyr, sufferer - one who suffers for the sake of principle" less relevant than your suicide bomber analogy

Secondly.

"deliberate and malicious attempt to demonize and dehumanize Israelis/Jews, despite extremely strong evidence proving such baseless claims to be little more than attempts to revive old antisemitic tropes and canards like the blood-libel, Jewish control of the media, governments"

Who exactly are you accusing of this...because it better not be me my friend, nor the thousands of campaigners for palestinian rights. People who do this, i agree are disgusting, and are generally far right fascists, religious fascists, or general all round zelots or terrorists. Why are you muddying the waters, who is dehumanizing jews here? It is a massive accusation to make and one that you should use with exceptional care, lest you denigrate the memories of those on the end of real dehumanizing!

[shira]

34. IHH is pro-Hamas, so it's extremely likely they use shahid WRT Israel/Palestine in the same way

Looks like the 3 dictionary definitions support that view.

As to the second point, how else do you explain all the OTT irrational madness and hysteria over this incident?

Piracy.

Murdering of innocent peace activists.

Starving Gazans.

All evidence to the contrary is a lie, somehow, even if it can't be reasonably shown to be.

=========

Or do you not recognize this as OTT hyperbole, exaggeration, etc..?

How would you label the situation if all this hysterical vitriol were aimed at Hamas, Iran, etc... similar to what JihadWatch and other far right extremist websites publish on a daily basis?

:shrug:

[B Whale]

35. I would happily level vitriol and

and complete denunciation at Iran and Hamas. Why do you equate concern for the palestinians, disgust at the killing of peace activists and a disgust at a supposed democratic state behaving in such and contemptible way for international law, its allies and human life with support for Iran and Hamas.

Its a classic straw man position. for the record i think Hamas' ideology is disgusting and despicable and i think the iranian regime is one of the most odius and unhinged regimes on the planet. I hate them...but would you equate, for example, my support of the green revolutionary movement in iran with....say....invasion of afghanistan or the CIA like the iranian regime tries to do with its opponents?...


furthermore, you specifically used the phrase dehumanizing of jews. and we both know you didn;t use that phrase lightly, or without some though and knowledge behind the phrase. why did you use that phrase? and do you honestly believe that's what people like me believe in?

[shira]

37. First, I didn't equate concern for Palestinians, etc.. with support for Iran/Hamas.

I equated the OTT irrational, hyper-criticism of Israel to far RW extremist OTT irrational, hyper criticism of Iran/Hamas.

Do you truly not see way OTT, irrational, frothing-at-the-mouth examples of lunacy here WRT Israel?

If this same pathological vitriol were voiced by RW extremists at Palestinians, Iranians, etc... how exactly would you label those 'critics' who say they're concerned about human rights?

[B Whale]

39. i'm wondering where you would put someone like me in

amongst that, because i am hypercritical of the iranian government, yet love the iranian people (except the lackeys and apologists for the extremist government).

And if iran or hamas had done similar, there would be world outrage also....furthermore i think you can probably see what a bizarre situation it is comparing a supposed democratic civilised country with hamas or iran. Hamas are classed as terrorists by most the west, if their leaders step out of gaza they will be arrested or assasinated!

...and the reason people get so mad is becasue this behaviour is sanctioned and supported in the main by their own governments. If britain was in support of hamas or iran you would have civil society rising against the sickening hypocrasy andinjustice of it....they are not, yet they support and fund israel.

Israel is not a terrorist organisation, nor is it a fascist theocracy, such as the iranian regime. It needs to be held to higher standard....but....and but, we all know it comes down to one thing and one thing alone that spawns it all.

The occupation. It must end!

[shira]

40. Let's start slow....

Do you believe those who attacked the IDF with knives, stun grenades, and metal pipes can be considered examples of innocent peace activists who should be invited on future flotillas to Gaza with other more "passive" pro-peace humanitarians?

[B Whale]

45. I almost stopped reading when you started with

'lets start slow'. Attempting to patronise someone you are debating with is not usually a good sign that you have a strong case but never mind. Also, you haven't answered any of my questions, you just keep answering with counter questions, but i'm very happy to continue much the same (but i would appreciate if you look at my questions i've answered throughout the exchange and answer a couple)

So, i'll answer you directly. Should they be invited on to future flotillas is your question. That's entirely up to whoever organises it, but if they are 'passive pro-peace humantitarians" then maybe they would invite them on saying strictly no resistance if we are boarded, however if they organise a flotilla aimed at getting aid to Gaza, and that is their priority, to feed people in gaza, then why not. they are prepared to resist illegal boardings. Resistance, passive, with bodies or with club handles has a very long history, my judgement is that they defended themsleves, they resiststed and i certainly shan't judge them badly for it.

Well stun grenades has been disproven (apart from the IDF using them) and a disputed report of one knife wound i believe to an IDF soldier and i've seen pictures of someone else holding a knife, so i shan't dispute it, but the main resistance i'm sure you can agree was people with metal bars and wooden staves.

( an aside....many of these people can't be invited onto future aid ships to feed the palestinians because they were repeatedly shot in the head from close range.)

And finally we obviously disagree as to who attacked who. If you wanna 'start slow' don;t load your questions so much. Now i would appreciate it if you could answer at least one of the questions i've put to you in the last few posts. any one....otherwise we're not really debating at all are we.

[Chulanowa]

41. Actually, that's exactly what you did

You equated being a martyr to a cause, with being a suicide bomber. You equated someone willing to lay down his life to help another, with a terrorist. Simply on the basis that the fellow is a Muslim.

[Recursion]

26. Actually, no, that's not what "shahid" means

Learn the language before you start saying crap like that.

[shira]

28. see #27 and also...

Do you realize that Palestinian suicide bombers are praised as shahids by Hamas, Fatah, etc.?

As well as Palestinian children who are used as human shields?

[Recursion]

29. Are you aware of all the different ways that word is used?

And, by the way, I'll trust my knowledge of Arabic over Webster's dictionary entry for "Shaheed" (sic)

[EFerrari]

47. Do they all look alike to you, Shira?

:sarcasm:

:puke:

[LeftishBrit]

44. Not necessarily at all

In the context of I/P, or any other context, suicide bombers may consider themselves as martyrs, but martyrs need not be suicide bombers!

[azurnoir]

46. sthat is what your hoping to push isn't it?

that's the image but this time it's a fail unless of course IDFnaDesk has an upcoming vid of one of these guys with a bomb belt, nothing would surprise me

[B Whale]

19. This guy knows what the IDF is like. In case you haven't noticed they regularly kill

innocent people, murder some might say!

[shira]

8. 3 flotilla fatalities 'dreamt of martyrdom'

Before boarding the Marmara, Ali Khaider Benginin told his family he dreamt of becoming a shahid. Turkish press reports two other slain flotilla participants expressed similar wish.

A Dutch activist arrested on flotilla suspected of ties with Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898109,00.html

[B Whale]

20. HA HA. so this guy has been on 3 flotillas to gaza. Each time he says he was hoping to

be shahid?....ok, so by the israeli logic then (ie look at the other boats bla bla), why wasn't he killed the other times? or any time?.....was it the murderous actions of the israelis on this boat?...cos thats the logic of the israelis

This in fact shows that some people hope for martydom in the line of what they believe, yes. However, as you well know that has a very widened meaning in islam and does not relate strictly to suicide bombings, terrorism etc.

This guy, saying he has hoped for shahid each time he sets out on a voyage is talking of his resolute faith, not an intention to kill idf soldiers, as you well know he has been on several voyages before. He is hoping for an honourable death if one comes and the fact he repeatedly makes these voyages without getting shot in the head (but with the same intentions) blows your point out the water

Lie, spin, smear, repeat repeat repeat!

[EFerrari]

10. Justifying killing, that's all this is. Shame on the IDF.

[Catherina]

16. No greater love hath man than to lay down his life for his friends

Martyrs, dead at the brutal hands of IDF thugs.

[lumpy]

43. Mahatma Gandhi comes to mind.

v

[activa8tr]

24. Unfortunately, Shira, you are not making any allies with this kind of

material.

The facts are what the facts are. We all have to live with them, 9 people are dead, not one of them Israeli.

Start another 50 threads with all the propaganda material you find,( true or false, it doesn't matter).
The facts are that the world, and even many Israeli citizens think the IDF went too far, and caused too much deadly damage to have helped the cause of Israel in this instance.

Try to learn SOMETHING from this, and find a way to help bring peace and prosperity to ALL the people in that part of the world.

[shira]

31. I agree that facts don't matter to useful idiots, true believers and haters

Doesn't excuse all the malicious libel and uncalled for and extremely passionate vitriol against the Jewish state.

[LAGC]

33. Jewish state?!

Last time I checked there were other people besides just Jews residing in that region that Israel now calls its home.

[Chulanowa]

38. No, they're not really people

Just ask Shira or any of the other perennial defenders of Israel around here.

[frylock]

42. *irony alert*

[howard112211]

48. I'm going to bed....

I'm tired of this...

[Recursion]

25. Err... "shahid" also means "witness", as in "witness to the world"

Oddly enough, the Greek word μαρτυρος ("martyr") literally means "witness" also.

Apparently this is Recursion's night to have fun with his laptop's character map.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tripmann]

36. More propaganda filth

to justify the execution of inncent poeple.

And was this 1 of 600 people on the boat, one of the people who was swinging poles at the IDF??

Was he one of the people who was shot in 'self defense' at 18 inches distance in the back of the skull?

Another stain in the annals of DU.