Goldstone's UN inquiry team arrives in Gaza

[bemildred]

A UN team investigating possible war crimes in Gaza, led by Richard Goldstone, has arrived in the Strip on a week-long fact finding mission.

The four-member team entered from Egypt after Israel failed to grant visas, despite repeated requests by the UN.

The UN wants to investigate whether Israel and Hamas committed war crimes during Israel's three-week operation in Gaza in December and January.

Israel accuses the UN branch carrying out the mission of bias against it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8076690.stm

[shira]

1. this war crimes probe was ordered by the same UNHRC that praised Sri Lanka's killing and maiming...

...of tens of thousands of civilians, and of course, voted against having a warcrimes probe of the Sri Lankan govt.

Here's what Amnesty Int'l wrote of the UNHRC that ordered this Gaza probe:

“The Human Rights Council established a fact-finding mission which will now look at violations of international human rights and humanitarian law by both sides in Gaza. By not establishing a similar fact-finding mission for Sri Lanka, the Human Rights Council has demonstrated deplorable selectivity and double standards.”

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/sri-lanka-un-must-publicize-civilian-casualty-figures-20090529

[HamdenRice]

2. No reasonable, fact based, open minded person can think Goldstone is biased

Goldstone's record for objective human rights investigations is stellar. He is one of the heroes of the South African transition to democracy as a result of his forming, chairing and leading investigations of, the Goldstone Commission, the commission on political violence that evenly and objectively assigned responsibility for political violence to various political parties and factions in the lead up to the elections of 1994, and broke the story that there was a "Third Force" of agents provocateurs trying to derail the transition.

If you have any objective, fact based, sourced criticism of Goldstone, I would ask that you post it.

[Violet_Crumble]

3. I've yet to see one person explain why they think he's biased...

I've asked a few times and got nothing but dribble about how evil the UN is.

[HamdenRice]

4. In fact, I thought that was one thing that we all found common ground about a few months ago

Iirc, after some back and forth and links and explanations, I thought even those who normally criticize the UN HCR came to agree that Goldstone had a sterling reputation.

That's why I'm surprised at the post above.

[azurnoir]

5. imagine the "dribble" if Hamas had refused

to cooperate with the investigation or conversely the dribble that if the UNHRC had decided in favor of an investigation that such a ruling was "proof" that UNHRC supported terror groups over legitimate governments?

[shira]

7. hahahahaha

that was funny.

Hamas cooperating with the UN?

rrrrrright....so long as they're not asked any tough questions and they're allowed to dictate exactly what the leadership wants the UN to hear and see, they'll cooperate. If the UN insists on more, Hamas intimidates via knee-capping, kidnapping, etc.

but thanks for the laugh.

[azurnoir]

8. Be that as it may and we will not know till

the inquiries results are made public, Israel was offered the same privilege it refused. As to knee capping or kidnapping the UN team that would tend to "color" the outcome wouldn't it?

[Howardx]

6. you'd think...

the UN had assassinated an israeli leader or something!

[Scurrilous]

9. Gaza businessmen want compensation for war damage

Gazans tell head of UN probing committee they want Israel to pay for damage caused by IDF offensive

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3726018,00.html

<snip>

"Gaza businessmen on Wednesday demanded of a UN investigation committee that Israel compensate them for the damage sustained by their businesses during the IDF offensive in the Strip in January.

Judge Richard Goldstone, who heads the committee, met with the group of businessmen while on a tour of Gaza, during which he observed Palestinian homes that were damaged during the war. He also visited families who lost loved ones.

The men handed the judge reports on the damage and called on him to ask that Israel be placed on trial. The judge's affiliates said he expressed shock at the destruction in Gaza."

<snip>

"The UN committee began its investigation into whether Israel committed "war crimes" during Operation Cast Lead in Gaza on Monday.

"We have come here to see, to learn, to talk to people in all walks of life; ordinary people, governmental people, administrative people," Goldstone told reporters."

[azurnoir]

10. So it seems Mr Goldstone and his group are not being

"spoonfed" information by Hamas, it is truly disappointing that the government of Israel chose not to give its own citizens the chance to speak to the UN team and tell their own stories

[shira]

13. rrright, you keep on thinking that

let's see how many anti-Hamas reports there are from the common folk in this report. Betcha I can list more credible reports from Gazans that criticize Hamas than anything that will be released by the Goldstone commission.

[azurnoir]

14. So seeing as how you've summed up

the Goldstone Commission well before it has finished its work and lets guess unless their numbers match IDF's and Halevi's you'll be here screaming Lies all lies you do not explain why Israel refused to let it's citizens speak to Goldstone's people or even Goldstone himself, why is that, do you think he'd lie about what he heard?

[Sezu]

12. That's because if they tried to get it from those who CAUSED

the war, Hamas, they would get shot.

[Scurrilous]

11. UN investigator 'shocked' by scale of destruction in Gaza

<snip>

"The head of a United Nations team investigating possible war crimes by Israel and Hamas during the Gaza war said Thursday he had been shocked by the scale of the destruction in the Palestinian areas.

South African Judge Richard Goldstone spoke at the end of a four-day fact-finding trip to Gaza, during which his 15-member team interviewed dozens of witnesses and visited sites damaged in Israel's three-week offensive against Hamas that ended Jan. 18.

His team hoped to visit Israel and the West Bank as well, but Israel has refused to cooperate, citing alleged anti-Israel bias by the U.N. Human Rights Council, the probe's sponsor.

Goldstone said he hoped Israel's refusal would not weaken the final report, due in early September, adding that it would not keep the team from investigating allegations against both sides.

"If we haven't dealt with facts that Israel would like us to deal with, I think we can hardly be blamed for that," he said.

The team announced Thursday that it will hold public hearings with the war's victims later this month in Gaza and Geneva."

more

[Scurrilous]

15. UN's Goldstone collects evidence from Israeli victims

<snip>

"Israeli witnesses of the country's assault on Gaza last winter testified before UN human rights investigators on Monday in Geneva.

South African Judge Richard Goldstone, a former war crimes prosecutor for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, headed a panel that heard from victims of attacks on southern Israel.

At one point, Goldstone comforted a woman who began crying during her testimony while describing injuries all over her body caused by a homemade projectile launched at Ashkelon during the assault, according to the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth.

Goldstone told her there was no need to apologize for breaking down during the investigation and added that his committee sympathized with her pain, calling her story important, the newspaper reported.

Ashkelon Mayor Benny Vaknin and a number of other Israeli residents and officials testified before the panel in Switzerland, where they were forced to travel due to Israel's refusal to cooperate with the probe.

Also in Geneva on Monday was the father of a soldier who was captured in a cross-border raid over two years before the Gaza conflict began in late December 2008. Noam Shalit had recently submitted a written statement calling for his son's release."

more

[varelse]

16. I still think it is a mistake for Israel to refuse to cooperate

Israeli victims of war crimes should not have to travel to be heard and should have equal opportunity to report their experiences.

[shira]

17. it wouldn't make a difference - here's the kind of testimony Goldstone is getting in Gaza

with a little influence from Hamas...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x279660#280105

=================

3 yrs ago, Israel cooperated and still got reports like these after Lebanon:
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/amnesty_and_hrw_claims_discredited_in_detailed_report

=================

so what's the point?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Neither Hamas nor IDF will not cooperate and the UN report is doomed from the start

When the report does comes out, the IDF will produce records and videos that show many specifics in the report is wrong, thereby discrediting it.

Hamas is already whining about its treatment in the recently released AI report and will do even less to cooperate with the UN.

Without serious cooperation, the lack of available evidence from Hamas and Israel its going to make it impossible for the UN report to be adequately accurate.

[azurnoir]

19. in the minds of those who already feel the IDF can do no wrong

the report is already discredited and those will be the only minds

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. Its not side taking its straight up logic..Its why most of the reports done on ME conflict are

useless. One side or both block serious inquiry and the result can not be accurate.

Its a repuke tactic to make things up when there is not enough data to support the conclusions. Most of us are better than that.

[azurnoir]

21. well it is good to know you recognize

Republican thinking that includes going along or declaring as expert and truthful the declarations of the military vs accounts made by people who may have been victims of that same military, and then declaring any dissenting opinion as ignorant, uninformed, dishonest, bigoted ect because it differs from the one you choose to believe

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. This is a situation where facts are hard to come by and everyone has a POV

AI and HRW have sullied themselves by reaching conclusions they can not adequately document and resorting to generalities. The Goldstone team will do little better. If form is followed, their report will be more detailed and easily derailed since neither side is giving them the data needed to produce an accurate report. There has been noise made along the line of "we gave them an opportunity to tell their side" but lack of cooperation is not an excuse for an unsupportable conclusions.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. No, it's side taking...

In another current thread, you stated that while Israel wouldn't cooperate with the UN investigation, the IDF would debunk the report after it's released. Sorry, but to think that the IDF are ones who have the *truth* and can go round debunking everything definately does reek of sidetaking...

btw, I gave you the opportunity to back up yr persistant claim there's 'not enough data to support the conclusions' when it came to the AI report, which unlike the UN report yr already rubbishing, has been released. In return all I got was really vague stuff that had nothing to do with missing data, and also a bit of a protest that AI are so wrong to even question things...


While it might be a tad hard for you to explain where there's not enough data to support the conclusions of an investigation that hasn't yet been completed, I know I'll be waiting eagerly for yr balanced take on the report when it is released!

[varelse]

22. I thought Hamas had already agreed to cooperate

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Both sides are to the degree that it helps them, but it will not matter

The IDF is not allowing access to tactical information which would explain why and with what a particular attack made. They are also withholding combat videos and other real time records. However, Siderot residents are freely available as are pictures of the damage, dead, and wounded there.

Hamas has few such records and many of those were destroyed early on in the attack. What they do provide is civilian witnesses.

There really is no hope of a valid report coming out. The UN team is too small and the schedule too tight. Everyone is following a script and the long term results predetermined.

[Violet_Crumble]

29. Wrong, The Israeli govt refused to cooperate....

Israel is not cooperating with the investigation at all. Hamas agreed to cooperate early on, and if you have any information from a credible source showing they've changed since then, I'd like to see a link to it...

It looks very much like you've predetermined the long term results by saying there's no hope of a valid report coming out. While you've said that about just about every report that would be critical of Israel, it is possible for a report to be valid if it contains criticism of Israel. The two aren't the mutually exclusive things you appear to believe they are.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. The only data either side is providing is what they want to show

All Hamas has provided eyewitnesses. Israel is allowing them all over Sedirot. Neither is providing tactical documentation.

Without the tactical traffic and records of the IDF it is impossible to ascertain WHY a target was attacked and in most cases with WHAT. Even WHEN is going to be hard for most of them. Without that kind of data, the only truly sure statement that can be made is the building is in ruins. Without the tactical records of Hamas its not possible to determine if there were "dual use" facilities, where munitions were stored, and where booby traps were placed. Its a giant game of Clue and the investigators have almost none of the cards.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. So yr claim that Hamas refused to cooperate is false...

I've asked you twice now for links to backup that claim you made, and seeing nothings been forthcoming, it's clear that it was a false claim.

Cooperation in an investigation does not, as you claim, mean solely handing over tactical documentation...

[Scurrilous]

25. UN investigator: Gaza war report will be balanced

<snip>

"A United Nations report on Israel's offensive against Hamas in Gaza at the start of the year will be fair, balanced and unbiased, Israel Radio quoted the head of a team of UN investigators as saying on Saturday.

Richard Goldstone made the pledge during an interview with Channel 1 that was aired Saturday, Israel Radio said, in which he noted that the report would also deal with the 2006 abduction of Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit by Gaza militants.

Goldstone, a South African judge who prosecuted war crimes in the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, added that he had initially declined the UN's request that he lead the investigation, according to Israel Radio.

The judge only agreed to head it after the president of the UN Human Rights Council assured him that the report would be balanced, he said."

<snip>

"The UN team's final report on the conflict is expected to be released toward the end of September."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1099332.html

[shira]

26. yeah, as balanced as the AI and HRW reports - great

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Balanced != Accurate

Both sides are not being forthcoming so the report will be flawed to start with. His prior statements to the effect of "We gave them a chance to tell their side" is unacceptably weak.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Well, Israel doesn't look good at all by not cooperating...

It tends to stink of guilt and having something to hide. Nothing unacceptably weak about it at all. Israel refused to cooperate with the ICJ when it came to the case about the wall, and then had the nerve to insist the case was invalid as Israel hadn't given them information that was needed. If this sort of obstructionist behaviour is acceptable to you when it comes to Israel, are you also okay with it being done by other countries that are being investigated? btw, I would like an answer to that question as I asked it a while back and you ignored it...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. Looks bad to whom? It will not change anyones opinion, regardless of their POV

Both sides are only showing what supports their side. Not the first time this dance has been done either. Cooperation is not required nor mandated for any nation or person in this investigation or any others.

Goldstone has a serious problem on his hands. He has to go into some specificity to have any credibility but there is not adequate detail available. Also any factual deviation will get pounced on by either side as appropriate. The honest thing for him to do would be to declare that insufficient information is available and to have the UN pressure both sides for details on certain tactical events. However, given that an publication date has already been announced and the minimal size of the team, its not going to happen. So much for intellectual integrity.

That one should completely open themselves up to investigation if they have nothing to hide or that refusing a search or otherwise refusing to aid in an investigation of yourself is indication of guilt are bad cliches in the US legal system. Tales of such abuse is all over DU. No one in their right mind accepts those arguments, though the cops keep trying them since they know some will knuckle under to that kind of BS. A nation's rights in that area should be at least as strong as a citizens. That may not be true where the people are subjects and whose basic rights are not adequately protected.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. To most folk. See, most haven't already made up their minds like you have...

Both sides? You've already been told that Hamas is cooperating while Israel isn't, so why ignore that, which is what you seem to have done in yr first paragraph....

No, Goldstone doesn't seem to have a serious problem on his hands. Yr not involved in the investigation, so you don't know what details are being investigated or what's happening. You don't have any idea what information is available or not, and you don't know what the results of the investigation will be. Not sure why yr acting like it's wrong that a release date for the report exists (if it even does. could you please provide a link to prove it as you've supplied me with incorrect info before). I've had some involvement in big-arse investigations (for want of a better name) here, and there's always a completion date set at the start. There has to be or it'd go forever...

Oh-kay, so according to you, Sarah Palin had nothing to hide and was doing totally the honest thing when she refused to cooperate with the investigation into Troopergate? Indonesia wouldn't have ever looked like it was hiding something if it had refused to cooperate with an UN investigation into its treatment of the East Timorese? Sorry, but that's totally screwed up thinking. A state with something to hide and which has done the wrong thing is going to refuse to cooperate with any outside investigation because then they control the dirty laundry and do a PR clean of it before showing it off in public, which is what Israel has done in this case with its joke of an investigation into its own conduct...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. Actually most people already have a POV and don't care one way or the other about these reports

Goldstone's problems are not unique. This is a road well traveled and the pattern is clear. Its a repeat of prior ones with no changes to the pattern. Its not limited to the middle east.

You said that refusing to cooperate makes one looks guilty. I pointed out that is BS, at least in a nation of free citizens and most in the US understand that. I understand that is not the way in other places with lesser freedoms. However, sovereign nations are the epitome of free citizens and the only practical reason for any nation to cooperate is if it thinks it will gain from it. The UN and NGOs are routinely ignored by all parties for things like this since they are perceived as having an agenda cannot even influence public opinion let alone the conduct of nations.

The Israeli after action analysis would be for internal use only and is used to determine how to do things better next time. It never going to be made public. Not the same as a UN investigation, thought it would be based on much the same information.

The only thing I have made up my mind on is that the report will not be based on accurate information since critical data is being withheld by both parties. It could sing the praises of the IDF or recommend war crimes trials down to the E-1 level, it would not matter, its still going to be flawed. Its a case of N equations and >N unknowns. Prima facie, it can not be determined adequately.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. You really should stop projecting yr own attitude onto most other people...

You don't know what most people do or don't think and shouldn't pretend to do so. There's only been one or two people in this thread who have come to a foregone conclusion about this report that hasn't even been released yet, and yr one of them. And as you stated in another post that the IDF will debunk the report when it's released, it's blatantly clear that yr 'issues' with this investigation are driven totally by yr attitude that the IDF are beyond reproach and Israel is getting picked on, etc....

Yep, refusing to cooperate makes Israel look pretty damn guilty. You can call it BS, but seeing as how you aren't able to explain why this only applies to investigations involving Israel and not other countries who refuse to cooperate with investigations, calling it BS looks just as lame as Israel's refusal to cooperate. Also, yr still trying to make out you have some sort of inside knowledge of the investigation and what information is contained in it. Maybe you should do what everyone else is doing and wait for it to come out before passing judgment?