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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 08:53 AM
Original message
Israel over-reaches

Nadia Hijab, IMEU, Dec 31, 2008


What a New Year dawns for the Palestinians of Gaza. More Gazans have been killed in just three days than the entire year of 1988, during the first Palestinian uprising.

Death and destruction cloud history and context. Fact: Israel's punishment of Gaza predates the Hamas take-over in June 2007. It even predates the existence of Hamas.

Israel's siege policies began to take shape back in 1988 when it imposed a "permit system" in Gaza. It introduced closures in 1991 and institutionalized them in 1993. It sealed Gaza off by an electronic wall in 1994. Israel's punishment before and since has included mass home demolitions, air raids, and "targeted assassinations" - all illegal under international law.

None of Israel's measures have made its people safer. On the contrary, they have bred counter-violations of international law. It was in 2002 - after 35 years of occupation - that the first Qassam rocket was launched into Israeli territory.


Hamas now stands accused of refusing to renew the ceasefire by Israel, the Bush Administration, and even Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas.

This ignores the facts. Although the ceasefire largely held for five months, Israel actually tightened its blockade throughout this period. UN supplies were restricted and the UN was unable to maintain its usual reserves. With the complete sealing of the Strip in November, the UN, unprecedentedly, ran out of food.

Hamas is far from perfect but it is not stupid. It could not have agreed to another ceasefire that would maintain a starvation status quo. It wanted one that would lift the siege.


Israel chose instead to go for a coup de grace to bring Hamas to its knees when 1.5 million people lack food, fuel and medicines, and the world is busy with two big holidays.

But Israel may have seriously over-reached and, in the process, damaged its ability to achieve a final settlement of the conflict on its terms, presumably the main point of the assault given that a comprehensive ceasefire would have stopped the rockets.

How? For one thing, Abbas' term ends on January 9. This presents a major challenge to the legitimacy of the entire PA enterprise ushered in by the Oslo Accords. A unilateral renewal of Abbas' mandate will be difficult without the appearance of collusion with Israel.

Already, Palestinians in the West Bank have taken to the streets in support of Gaza. Demonstrators have been killed and injured by Israeli and PA fire - a further blow to the PA's legitimacy.

Israeli Jewish and Palestinian citizens have also poured into the streets, and clashes with police have been reported. The committee representing Israeli Palestinian political parties and civil society groups has called for a general strike and accused Israel of "acts of genocide." It also called for the PA to stop negotiations, for the Arab states to shut down their embassies, and for Egypt to break its siege.

The Israeli assault put Egypt on the spot. The image of Egyptian president Hosni Mobarak shaking hands with Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni just before the assault is still vivid. Egypt was already coming under criticism for the closure of its Rafah border with Gaza.

Now Egypt's troops have been forced to fire on Palestinians desperate to escape the Strip. Egypt is stuck. If it opens its borders, Israel may claim that Egypt has responsibility for the Strip. If it keeps them closed, it faces destabilizing popular anger.

Israel has also damaged its relations with its important ally, Turkey, which has quickly condemned the Gaza attacks as a crime against humanity and froze its mediation between Israel and Syria. Syria also suspended peace talks while Saudi King Abdullah called President George W. Bush to urge him to rein in Israel.

A Washington Post editorial drew attention to another goal, pointing out that Israel's efforts to focus international attention on the Iranian nuclear program have been overshadowed - an outcome Israel could have avoided by relaxing the economic blockade.

US credibility in the region, already low, took another hit with the Bush Administration's knee-jerk support of Israel's actions and the very visible use of US fighter planes in the Gaza attacks - violating America's own laws. Israel may find that, rather than presenting the incoming Obama Administration with a fait accompli, it may have made it harder for him to be as accommodating.

read on...
http://imeu.net/news/article0015233.shtml
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. another crappy article......same BS rehashed over and over
Let's see now, what's missing from this article?

1. Israel should do nothing while allowing its civilians to be collectively punished by Hamas/PLO. Check.
2. Whatever Israel does is an over-reach, overreaction, disproportionate response....so what is proportional, legal, and effective to stop Hamas? Shooting rockets back indiscriminately over Gaza?
3. What if Hamas stops for real, for 6 months? Think the siege will loosen up a bit? History proves the answer is "yes".
4. Nothing about Hamas restricting its civilians from being treated in Egypt. Or setting up their military operations in schools, mosques, homes, etc.. purposely using human shields. Or bombing the crossings that would allow aid in.


All irrelevant points, right? :sarcasm:


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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I think you have that about right, Shira
Israel should take thousands of rockets raining on its cities and towns and do nothing.

Meanwhile, in the truce, Hamas, the murderous bunch of militant thugs, acquires longer range and more dangerous missiles.

Meanwhile, the Gazans are cut off because Hamas, a murderous bunch of militant thugs, has never cared for their welfare, and puts terrorism above all else.

Is it a wonder there is a war, and is it a wonder that the Palestinians are miserable?
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Israel Broke The Ceasefire First
Period. End of sentence. The attacks made by Hamas that Israel is using to justify the current bombings were clearly provoked.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Both sides violated the so-called cease-fire throughout the six month period
Hamas made it clear on the day of its expiration that it was not interested in renewing it by launching a barrage of rocket attacks against Israel on that day.

What exactly "provoked" the December 24th rocket barrage?
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Nope, Israel Broke It First.
Edited on Thu Jan-01-09 10:01 AM by wellst0nev0ter
There is no making the usual false equivalancies to this hard and fast fact.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. If you are asserting that as a fact can you support it with evidence?
Here's an article from the IHT from November that indicates violations on both sides:

Cease-fire in Gaza Strip unravels

JERUSALEM: Tensions between Hamas, the radical Palestinian rulers of Gaza, and Israel increased markedly on Friday after Hamas fired a barrage of rockets into southern Israel, sending 18 Israelis to the hospital with shock and mild injuries.

Hamas officials said the attack was revenge for the deaths over the past 11 days of 11 militants and the recent increased Israeli closure of Gaza crossings. They said that while they wanted to continue the five-month-old truce with Israel, it seemed to them that Israel did not and if that was the case, Israel would pay the consequences.

Israeli officials, who say they have been keeping the crossings into Gaza shut in retaliation for the rockets, thereby greatly decreasing the supply of supplies and fuel, said it was Hamas that was breaking the truce. Senior Israeli officials met in Tel Aviv on Friday and vowed not to back down from any provocation.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/14/africa/15gaza.php

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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
30. Even Your Article Says Israel Shot First.
Here's the contemporary account

Israeli Strike Is First in Gaza Since Start of Cease-Fire

JERUSALEM — Israel carried out an airstrike on Gaza on Tuesday night after its troops clashed with Hamas gunmen along the border in the first such confrontation since a cease-fire took effect in June.

Five militants were killed, Palestinian officials told The Associated Press.

An Israeli security force had entered Gaza to destroy a tunnel and fought with Hamas gunmen, killing one and wounding at least three, according to Palestinian hospital officials.

An Israeli military official, speaking on the condition of anonymity under army rules, said that the tunnel lay about 270 yards inside Gaza and was apparently intended for use in the abduction of a soldier or soldiers. The tunnel was ready for an “imminent” operation, the official said.

The Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Hamas, said in a statement that it had fired at least 10 mortar shells at the Israeli force. Several landed in Israeli territory, the Israeli military said.

Israel then launched an airstrike, in which four militants were killed, The A.P. reported.


And I don't believe having a pre-existing tunnel counts as a "violation.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. My argument is that there wasn't really a cease fire but rather a "period of calm"
The reason I argue this is because, firstly, there was no actual written agreement, and, secondly, because the two sides clearly had different ideas about what constituted a "violation" of the agreement.

Israel felt that it was still within its rights to strike in Gaza if they felt that it would prevent an attack against them and Hamas felt that it was within its rights to shoot rockets at Israeli civilians if Israeli forces took action against Hamas in that way.


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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Written Agreement Or Not, Different Ideas Or Not, Israel Struck First
Period end of sentence. I'm glad we agree on at least that point.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. That is just not accurate - Israel did not strike first.
Rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel on June 24th, just five days after the beginning of the so-called cease fire.

There were subsequent "violations" on both sides over the intervening six months.

Again I argue that the cease fire was not really a cease fire but a period of relative calm.
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Islamic Jihad Claimed Responsibility For That Attack
You still can't find any violations by Hamas militants, who they pledged that agreement with in the first place.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Still a violation of the cease fire agreement
When they agreed to the truce, Israel insisted that Hamas halt all fire from Gaza, and said that they will hold it responsible for actions by smaller groups.
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GSPowner Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. LOL you're funny....
In what way did Isreal break it first?...if you say by not lifting the blockade your going to have to do better. That is a JOINT blockade with Egypt.
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. November 5th "provoked" it,
and the air strikes since then haven't helped.

Hamas Reacts to Israeli Incursion With Mortar Fire

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/middle_east/july-dec08/mideast_11-05.html

The violence began late Tuesday when Israeli forces entered Gaza to destroy what the army said was a tunnel being dug near the border to kidnap Israeli troops, reported the Associated Press.

Israeli defense officials said under condition of anonymity that they had discovered a 300-yard tunnel several days ago and concluded it was going to be used for abductions. Hamas is believed to still be holding an Israeli soldier that militants captured in a cross-border raid more than two years ago.

After the incursion, Hamas gunmen battled Israeli forces, killing one Hamas fighter and prompting mortar fire at nearby Israeli targets.


UN official says Israel responsible for breaking truce with Gaza

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051211.html

Palestinians in Gaza believed Israel had called a 48-hour lull in retaliatory attacks with Hamas when Israel Air Force warplanes launched a massive bombardment of militant installations in the Gaza Strip, a UN official said Monday.

Karen Abu Zayd, commissioner of the UN Relief and Works Agency which helps Palestinian refugees, raised the possible violation of an informal truce in a video press conference with UN reporters from her base in Gaza.


"I think they saw that Hamas had observed the truce quite strictly for almost six months, certainly for four of the six months, and that they got nothing in turn - because there was to be kind of a deal," Abu Zayd said.

"If there were no rockets, the crossings would be opened," she said. "The
crossings were not opened at all."


Any more questions?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Hamas announced on December 19th that it would not renew the cease fire
Your PBS link refers to Hamas launching mortar attacks against Israel in early November after Israel destroyed a tunnel in Gaza that they said was going to be used to kidnap Israeli soldiers.

That would be both sides violating the cease fire in November.

The UN representative cited in the second article you linked to indicates that Hamas only observed the truce for "four of the six months".

Actions taken on November 5th did not provoke a response on December 24th.

Hamas retaliated for November 5th on November 5th.

The rocket barrage on December 24th - Hamas made it clear several days earlier that the cease-fire was over:

"The calm ends on December 19 and Hamas’ position is against renewing the calm,” said Fawzi Barhoum, a spokesman for Hamas.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5367679.ece



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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Israel said the tunnel was to be used
to kidnap Israeli soldiers, not PBS, and then used that as an excuse to violate the cease fire. I believe the Palestinians now hold one Israeli soldier, as a left over from the Lebanon debacle, that hardly makes the case for these tunnels being used to kidnap Israeli soldiers.

So, Hamas took two months to reign in an undisciplined, loosely organized force, but they did succeed in doing so. The Israeli incursion of November 5th, coupled with no reciprocity along the lines of opening the borders and ceasing the collective punishment, would have made up my mind for me what I would do after the agreed cease fire expired with no new talks and no positive action on the border closure, if I were in that situation.

The sad fact is, the more Israel does to undermine the leadership the less control there will be to exert on the followers, you know, the guys firing the rockets. I would have to believe they know this, and are counting on this to happen. That begs the question, why? Could it be they know the rockets are totally ineffectual as a threat to Israel, but completely effective as an excuse to invade?

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. The "they" in that sentence was in reference to Israel not PBS
I apologize that I did not make that clear.

One is free to believe Israel or not - the only point is that both sides violated the cease fire at the time for reasons they felt were justified.

It's fine that you agree that Hamas was justified in deciding not to renew the cease fire for the reasons you described, but that does not change the fact that they did in fact make that decision and did launch a barrage of rockets against Israel to make it crystal clear what their position was.

I certainly dispute your claim that the rockets are "totally ineffectual as a threat to Israel". They have, unfortunately, been quite effective in terrorizing the residents of Sderot and Ashkelon.

Here is an article about a study from July:

Study: Most Sderot kids exhibit post-traumatic stress symptoms

Between 75 percent and 94 percent of Sderot children aged 4-18 exhibit symptoms of post-traumatic stress, says Natal, the Israel Center for Victims of Terror and War.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/945489.html
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Yes the both violated the cease fire
if the cease fire was worded that neither side would retaliate for incursions onto their territory. I haven't read the cease fire agreement but I find it hard to believe either side would sign onto that.

19 Dead Israelis from rockets in six years. That is it. I wouldn't bother firing one if it were me.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/30/israel-hamas-gaza

I wonder if anyone will bother checking the surviving children in Gaza to see what rate of PTS they have, or better yet, even if they do, who will care?
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GSPowner Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. The blockade is a join one with Egypt so should they also be blamed?
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Absolutely.
Egypt has allowed the tunneling activity to go on and that has provided some basics to get through.

I think Egypt knew this would eventually blow up in Israels face. The only thing guaranteed is change.

Egypt is in no hurry to part with the checks from the US, and they know we would stop sending those checks in a heartbeat, unlike the lump sum check Israel gets.
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Fozzledick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
36. Use of Big Lie technique noted
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. Show Me The Proof That Hamas Struck First After June
Before making your biased judgements.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Huh?
1. Collectively punished? You're kidding right?

2. Is Israel's response proportionate? No one could possibly argue that with a straight face. Shootig rockets indiscriminately would no doubt kill far fewer civilians.

3. Maybe Israel should withdraw completely from the West Bank and Gaza - back to the UN partition lines. Then your point would be cogent.

4. I agree. Hamas should allow aid to civilians, assuming this report is accurate. I have seen no reports on bombing crossings to prevent aid from entering Gaza. What military operations have been set up in schools, homes? If true, that is terrible but Republican militia often set up shop in schools and even sympathetic churches in the Spanish Civil War. mIt's not exactly unheard of in warfare.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Back to UN Partition Lines?
Not the 1967 Green Line, but the 1947 UN Partition Plan line? Are you serious?
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Why does Israel have a right to more than that?
There is no international legal basis for more.

Will you dismantle all settlements including the suburbs ringing East Jerusalem? If so, maybe other boundary negotiations are possible. :-)
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. The current State of Israel is recognized by the United Nations
There is no international legal basis for Israel giving away territory that is recognized by the UN as being part of Israel.

International law calls for Israel to withdraw to the Green Line not to give up half of its territory.

Even the Saudi Peace Plan that was endorsed by the Arab League does not call for Israel to withdraw beyond the 1967 Green Line.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. The Israel recognized by the UN
is not the one at the Green Line. By the way the Green Line is not the 67 border. The Green Line is the 49 armistace border.

The Saudi Peace Plan is irrelevant. Israel comes nowhere near to agreeing to it or implementing it.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. What are you talking about?
The Green Line is the 67 border - i.e. the border that existed until 1967 (from 1949). You can call it the 1949 border if you want to. There is no difference between the two borders.

The Israel recognized by the UN is the one that exists inside of that border.

In any case, I've never heard of anyone calling for Israel withdrawing to the borders outlined in the 1947 Partition Plan that was never implemented.


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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. I thought you meant the post 1967 war border
We are on the same page.

As a practical matter, Israel will get the Green Line and probably more if there is a two state solution. But that does not mean Israel is entitled to that amount of land. And no party has been more obstinate at the negotiating table. So why not start at the partition border?

You like to duck questions and issues, just like the Israelis. Since you brought it up, are you prepared to accept the Saudi Peace Plan? And please no Barak/Dennis Ross type answers.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Ok, sorry about the misunderstanding
I don't like to duck questions and issues - I try to respond if I have a response.

Personally, I support the Geneva Initiative as the best foundation to a solution to the I/P conflict.

http://www.geneva-accord.org/

I think it is more comprehensive than the Saudi Peace Plan which does not address some of the more contentious issues.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. Suicide bombings predate Qassam attacks
Edited on Thu Jan-01-09 09:26 AM by oberliner
This piece makes a point to note that Qassam rocket attacks did not begin until 2002 as a means of showing that Israel's actions in Gaza did not make Israel safer.

Not mentioned is the decade-long history of suicide attacks that Hamas engaged in against Israel prior to 2002.

Omitting that fact makes Israel's actions in Gaza over the past decade to appear to be completely based on nothing.

You can certainly object to Israeli policy, but to leave out any mention of this history is disingenuous.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Violent military occupation predates Qassams by 35 years and suicide attacks by 28 years.
Edited on Thu Jan-01-09 09:39 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Terror attacks by Palestinian Arabs against Jews predate the occupation by 35 years
Without question, the occupation should end and a Palestinian state should be established.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. You are better than that Oberliner.
Edited on Thu Jan-01-09 10:07 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
Guess those '48 Palestinians DESERVED to be driven out, huh?

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Nobody deserved any of the horrible things that happened in the 1940s
It was a pretty awful time for a lot of people.

But not to get off track, I just think the article leaves out the Hamas suicide attacks to the detriment of her argument.

Her argument would be stronger if she at least acknowledged that those attacks did actually happen and had something to do with Israeli policy.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. not all the palestinians were driven out
but no, the ones that were indeed driven out did not deserve that. Neither did the jews who lived in arab countries deserve to be driven out.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. What about other terror attacks?
Like the bombing of the King David Hotel, the 1939 attacks in Haifa, Deir Yassin and so on.

Someday Israel will need the occupation to end - or its existence will be irrelevant.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. King David Hotel bombing was against the British colonial occupiers
One of the few things Jews and Arabs were united about in those days was that the British had to go.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. So what? It's still terror nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. The difference is Menachem Begin was involved
and has to be let off the hook somehow.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. The Military Headquarters Of An Occupying Power, Ma'am
Is a clean hit for a liberation movement. And a much trickier target than most such have ever attempted to tackle, let alone struck to good effect.

The Sternists did some things that are well beyond the pale, but this was not one of them.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. And how was Deir Yassin a military target? Or the scores of incidents in Haifa? Or Al Aqsa?
It seems to me there are two standards: one for Palestinians and one for Israeli jews. And please spare me the "military intent" v. "civilian intent" argument - it is a red herring in asymmetrical warfare meant only as a futile attempt to sustain Israel's moral superiority, squandered long ago.

I'm sure the families of the dozen or so jews killed at the King David Hotel really considered it a "clean hit."
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Since, Sir, You Declare At the Outset Your Wish To Dispense With Actual Military Considerations
It is hard to see where there could be either profit or wholesome amusement in pursuing the matter with you....
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. No need to respond then, is there?
I'm sure you are quite capable of finding other ways of amusing yourself . . . sir.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
51. It was a military target
not a civilian one.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. Like Deir Yassin? Or the Haifa attacks in the 30s?
No one is innocent.
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. No Suicide Bombings in 1999 and 2000
And that was without the Great Wall of Israel and the PA was best able to exert their authority. Terror attacks only resumed after the the peace talks failed.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
24. Sometimes I think only a new generation will resolve this. Here's a statement
from a group of refuseniks, issued yesterday:

Israeli Military Refuseniks
Wednesday, December 31, 2008 :: Staff infoZine
"The people being bombed in Gaza are not citizens of anything and that's the crux of the problem: they are stateless people and that needs to end."


Washington, D.C. - infoZine - Jesse Bacon ( [email protected] ) is one of the "Shministim" -- high school seniors who refuse to enter the Israeli military process. She said today: "I'm proud to refuse to serve in an army that claims to be for humanity and defense but hurts people on a daily basis."

She recently wrote: "I first went to prison on September 23 and served 35 days. ... By the time you read this, many of my friends will be in prison too: in for three weeks, out for one, and then back in, over and over, until they are 21. The reason? We refuse to do military service for the Israeli army because of the occupation.

"I grew up with the army. My father was deputy head of Mossad and I saw my sister, who is eight years older than me, do her military service. As a young girl, I wanted to be a soldier. The military was such a part of my life that I never even questioned it."

Bacon is a board member of the group Jewish Voice for Peace, which, among other things, is launching a campaign to support the Shministim. www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org

http://www.infozine.com/news/stories/op/storiesView/sid/32830/
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Yep, it will take generational change, and real political leadership.
Some problems can't just be fixed, you have to outlive them.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Or, thinking outside the box like these people. They're just down the road
from me, come to find out. They're having a conference call today.

“This past year the Rebuilding Alliance was recognized by President Jimmy Carter, Congresswoman Barbara Lee, and Vice President of the European Parliament, Luisa Morgantini! Our work is made possible by our small staff, an energetic board, and teams of volunteers that edge into the hundreds.”

http://www.rebuildingalliance.org/index.php

It looks like they work with Combatants for Peace and Jewish Voice for Peace.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. More likely to get less killing that way, for sure. nt
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. You are more optimistic than I sir
The separation Of Palestinians from Israeli's that occurred and still exists during the second intifada has created a different reality for Israeli youth one where Palestinians are something they see on TV and then usually as the enemy and Palestinian youth in the OPT have mainly contact with border police, IDF, and settlers also the enemy, neither of these separate reality's bode well for future peace

The real two-state solution

Born a few months after the outbreak of the first intifada, my daughter grew up in a very different environment than I did. She has never met a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza. Now 19, she has seen our Palestinian neighbors only on TV, and views them as aliens. She is much more familiar with American brand names and sitcom characters than with the people who live 15 miles east of her Tel Aviv home.


http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/26/two_state/

I have posted this before some months ago
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Me? Optimistic?
:rofl:

That is a good piece.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Damn, Sir...
With any luck, someone may complete your day by showing up to call you naive....

"An optimist thinks this is the best world possible. A pessimist knows it."
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Ah sir the
separation between the possible and the probable, and I said that bemildred was more optimistic than I am on this subjectthat is not a hard standard to beat so to speak
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Well, you might be right, about our relative gloominess.
I think these things do end, sometimes, gradually.
But that piece you posted is not a good sign.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
49. What's scary is to look at the young generation on the Palestinian side.
Look at what they are growing up in. All they will know is extreme subjugation, imprisonment, hunger. I don't think that's going to result in a generation of peace seekers.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. All Of Which, Ma'am, Could Have Been Avoided By Competent Political Leadership
Leadership less wedded to strugglicious delights....
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Too bad Bush and his Israeli buddies shot that down, huh?
Life is so much easier when there's "no partner for peace..."

How whine-alicioius!
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. That Fellow Came Rather Kate To the Party, Ma'am
This has been going on for a very long time, and the mistakes been repeated with unchanging and metronomic regularity over decades.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. Can you make your point in plain English please?
What's been going on -- the US overturning free and fair democratic elections in Palestine?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. No One Has Overturned An Election, Ma'am
Edited on Thu Jan-01-09 11:17 PM by The Magistrate
Hamas still holds its Ministry.

The Hamas government has simply embroiled itself in open hostilities with a power much stronger militarily than it is; governments which do this are generally regarded as foolish and incompetent, and sometimes find their careers cut short by force majeur.....
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. They sure tried, Magistrate. They have made it nearly impossible for the winners of the election
to govern.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #49
63. Yes. It's unfortunate that Bush was in office when Hamas was elected.
A competent president could have helped encourage a transition from arms to government. Instead, BushCo did everything possible to make that development impossible.
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