Applying Jim Crow to Israel: An Open Letter to Secretary Rice

[Shaktimaan]

For surviving in a sea of Muslims, we have been constantly insulted, humiliated, discriminated against. We are -- because we are Jews, representing the Jewish State -- treated as less than human or, as their imams continually remind us in their sermons, "a race of pigs and monkeys."

As such, Madame Secretary, we have no faith in the possibility of a peace treaty in a year or even in ten years, maybe not in a hundred. Why? Because the Arabs, the Muslims in general, and the Palestinians in particular, are educating their people, their youth, to hate us, to dehumanize us, to demonize us, to deny our basic rights. The Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and parts of Mahmoud Abbas' own Fatah, defined all as terror groups by your State Department -- these are the local version of the Ku Klux Klan you remember from your childhood, with one crucial difference: they don't just want to keep us down. They want to make us dead.

Theirs is not a non-violent civil rights struggle, but a nationalist struggle to exterminate the people of Israel from the Land of Israel, primarily by violent means and, when necessary, political means using well-meaning people like you.

I need not tell you that our fears are not without justification, with Muslims the world over, and some non-Muslims as well trying to foment the idea of a world without Israel, without a Jewish state. And, sadly, you have to some extent thrown your lot in with them, by morally equating them and us, by saying that we are equally guilty of terror and incitement as the Palestinians, those who with their hijacking and kidnapping and suicide bombings invented modern terrorism and incite against us in their mosques, media and government statements.

http://web.israelinsider.com/views/12434.htm

[Ken Burch]

1. Any Palestinian would find it deeply insulting that Israel claims its Pals imposing the "Jim Crow"

So would anyone who actually took part in the U.S. Civil Rights movement.

You can't say "I'm a victim of Jim Crow" when YOU are the heavily armed occupying oppressor.

The truth is this:

Home demolitions are Jim Crow.

Throwing Palestinians off of land where they've lived for centuries is Jim Crow.

Destruction of ancient Palestinian olive trees is Jim Crow.

The claim that Palestinians never really lived in Palestine before 1948 is a segregationist Jim Crow lie.

There is NO way that Israelis can honestly claimed to be the discriminated against victims in the I/P dispute.

This "open letter" is simply an apologia for continuing the fascist Occupation.

There is no way continued Israeli hawkishness and force can make Palestinians change their tactics. History has proven this.

And in the Nineties, when the Palestinians were less violent, the Israelis mocked Palestinian moderation by building even more illegal settlements on stolen Palestinian land.

Using the term Jim Crow to describe Palestinian resistance to occupation and oppression is a mortal insult to both Palestinians and to the intelligence of the humane, decent progressive Israeli majority.

You should be ashamed to quote such reactionary, warmongering drivel in a PROGRESSIVE website.

Most Israelis and most Diaspora Jews would, I'm sure, be disgusted at that letter.

[Douglas Carpenter]

2. 70% to 80% of Palestinians and their leaders see it differently than the article above

Here is a poll from February 2007 Conducted by Near East Consulting of Ramallah"

"Support or opposition to a one-state solution in historic Palestine where Muslims, Christians and Jews have equal rights and responsibilities

"A survey that was recently executed by Near Eastern Consulting in Ramallah revealed that 70 percent of the Palestinians support the one-state solution <3>. The survey was held amongst 1200 randomly selected Palestinians in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Jerusalem"

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/surveys/all/p22/out_freq_q27.php

http://www.jai-pal.org/content.php?page=491

This result is in line with the survey amongst 520 opinion leaders. 67.5% of the interviewed Palestinian opinion leaders in the West Bank and Gaza Strip see the solution of the conflict in one democratic state in historical Palestine for all its citizens without discrimination based on religion, race, ethnicity, color or sex."

link:

""- Among the various scenarios proposed for self-determination, 'one democratic state in historical Palestine for all its citizens without discrimination based on religion, race, ethnicity, color, or sex (to be determined by a constitution and upon international safeguards and guarantees)' is the preferred scenario among the respondents (68 percent). However, only 16 percent support such a scenario and believe that it is feasible; 52 percent support it regardless of its feasibility.

- Almost an equal percentage support a two-state solution scenario (65 percent) where one is Palestinian and the other is Israeli (in reference to the 1988 Declaration of Independence and 242 UN Resolution. Indeed, it is the most realistic solution from the point of view of its supporters. Fifty-four percent of supporters believe that a two-state solution is feasible while 11 percent support this potential solution regardless of its feasibility.

- Sixty-eight percent of the opinion leaders do not support a potential scenario to establish 'An Islamic State on all lands of historic Palestine (Jews and Christians to be treated as minorities of non-Muslim subjects enjoying the protection of Muslim state.' Likewise, sixty-two percent of respondents believe that such a solution is not feasible. "--------

--------------------------------------

However, in a straight up or down poll of randomly selected Palestinians living in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza which includes the idea of feasibility - the two-state solution clearly comes out on top:

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/more_palestinians_favour_two_state_solution

Polling Data - Aug. 2007

Some believe that a two-state formula is the favoured solution for the Arab-Israeli conflict, while others believe that historic Palestine can't be divided and thus the favoured solution is a bi-national state on all of Palestine where Palestinians and Israelis enjoy equal representation and rights. Which of these solutions do you prefer?

Two-state solution: an Israeli state and a Palestinian state
51.1

Bi-national state on all of historic Palestine
30.0%

One Palestinian state
9.8%

No solution
5.4%

Islamic state
2.3%

Others
0.5%

Don't know / No answer
0.9%

.

Source: Jerusalem Media & Communication Center
Methodology: Interviews with 1,199 adults in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, conducted from Aug. 16 to Aug. 20, 2007. Margin of error is 3 per cent.

link:

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/more_palestinians_favour_two_state_solution

.

[Douglas Carpenter]

3. it boggles my mind that people will use extremist racist hate sites

to spread anti-Arab racism and bigotry on this forum and think that is credible material.

That would be like using Stormfront or the writings of David Duke to build up anti-Semtic caricature.

Surely there are more credible sources that they can find to argue their points. Surely there are better tactics then playing on racist fear and hatred.

[Shaktimaan]

6. Excuse me.

But this site is not exactly the equivalent of stormfront, and I resent the association.

I posted this letter, not as an argument for or against anything, but to provide some context for how a liberal Israeli (originally from America) sees the conflict and the current state of affairs. I am not supporting or condoning his views, just presenting them, as I think that everyone can benefit by hearing voices from within both camps. This letter is not a racist screed, nor is it even anti-Palestinian. It articulates the fears of many people in Israel regarding the current peace attempts and America's role in them, something that I feel is entirely appropriate for this forum, regardless of whether or not you (or I) agree with his opinions.

Considering the often factually impaired drivel from virulently anti-Zionist sites that often gets posted here, I think you should chill out a bit on the accusations of my using racism, bigotry and hatred to argue a point. That goes doubly for the comment about "credibility."

[Violet_Crumble]

9. You can't see the bigotry in that ignorant drivel ?

I don't get how anyone could read it and not spot it. Just try reversing what this person has said and insert Jew instead of Muslim, and then I'd like to know if you still can't see it...

[Shaktimaan]

10. No, I can't.

But even if I could it wouldn't mean that I'm using racism to advance my own agenda. Seeing the value in posting this isn't saying I agree with it.

Look at it this way... not every Israeli is going to agree with this dude that Israeli Arabs should be transferred, or with many of his other opinions. But the fears he expresses seem to me to be fairly average, I would bet that many Israelis share at least some of his doubts about the peace process, and especially the players involved. However, if there is ever going to be a peace deal then these are the fears that will have to be looked at and addressed, because even if they offend, they do not spring from nowhere.

That said, I'd appreciate you showing me where he is actually bigoted. I thought he was obnoxious, and could be accused of generalizing, but didn't see him cross the line into racism IMO.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Here's where it gets really bigoted...

It's about halfway through the article. Here's two examples: 'I need not tell you that our fears are not without justification, with Muslims the world over, and some non-Muslims as well trying to foment the idea of a world without Israel, without a Jewish state.'

Why this is bigoted is because he's painting an entire group with a very broad brush. Wouldn't you consider it to be bigoted if someone were to claim that Jews the world over were trying to forment the idea of a world without a Palestinian state? I certainly would.

'We have no desire to rule over another people, but neither do we intend to allow that people or their cousins to destroy the Jewish homeland and end Jewish history, which is their clearly and continuously expressed intention.'

Yep, coz that's what the Palestinian people as a collective clearly and continuosly express, right? Of course they don't and it's another case of bigoted generalisation. If someone were to say that the clearly and continuously expressed intention of the Israeli people is to expel all Arabs from Israel and the Occupied Territories that'd be the same sort of thing. An entire people can't be judged based on the extremes within their own societies....

on edit: on reading through the article I noticed his claim that most Israelis do not support Israel leaving the West Bank and the creation of a Palestinian state there and that polls support his claim. I thought that polls showed pretty consistantly that a majority of Israelis support a two-state solution with Gaza and the West Bank making up the new state. So I think he's very wrong on his reading of polls...

[Shaktimaan]

15. Here's where we differ.

I don't think that speaking about a nation or culture in generalizations is necessarily bigoted, especially when the generalizations are "generally" true. There's a difference between generalizing about Muslim's views on Israel and saying the same of "all Muslims." There's a point where being PC can prevent one from having an honest discussion rooted in reality. The fact of the matter is that there is a widespread movement within the Muslim world that considers Israel's creation a crime and wants to see it vanished. I believe it is fair to call this a generally held idea within the Muslim world.

Wouldn't you consider it to be bigoted if someone were to claim that Jews the world over were trying to forment the idea of a world without a Palestinian state? I certainly would.

Not so much bigoted as untrue. If you were to say that Jews the world over support Zionism, this is an equally broad generalization about a sensitive topic, yet since it is true I don't view it as bigoted. If we look at the kind of propaganda about Jews and Israel that's frequently taught, reported on or otherwise disseminated in the Muslim world, it becomes difficult to say that we can't generalize that many Muslims dislike Israel, IMO.

Same goes for the Palestinian comment. No, not all Palestinians want to destroy Israel, but there has always been a constant call for this exact thing coming from the Palestinian leadership, since Israel declared independence. So it is true to say that the Palestinians have expressed destroying Israel as a clear goal. It is no different than making a generalization about any national goal that one would consider positive. Say, in the 1980's, it was America's clearly stated goal to destroy communism. Sure, not ALL Palestinians want to destroy Israel, maybe even most of them don't right now, who knows? But within Palestinian culture, there has been a constant and often expressed desire to end Israel's existence. To a large extent, the I/P conflict helped define the Palestinian's national identity, the identity grew out of opposition to Israel. Knowing that, it becomes a little absurd to try and deny that the conflict, (and its issues) have become ingrained in the Palestinian identity. It's not for nothing that Palestinians HAVE been calling for Israel's destruction for decades.

Regarding your example of Israel wanting to expel all Arabs from the OPT, I would say that the problem with that isn't that it is bigoted against Israelis, (it's a generalization about Israel's national goals, not a statement about intrinsically held beliefs,) but that it isn't actually true. That isn't something which Israel has continually expressed as a goal.

Now if you said, "The Israeli people hate Arabs," then THAT would be bigoted IMO. That statement generalizes about the Israelis as individuals and not as a nation. Similarly the statement, "Muslims are anti-semitic" would be bigoted.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Two questions...

Now if you said, "The Israeli people hate Arabs," then THAT would be bigoted IMO. That statement generalizes about the Israelis as individuals and not as a nation. Similarly the statement, "Muslims are anti-semitic" would be bigoted.

How could you read that article and not see that he's saying that Muslims are anti-semitic?

Also, if saying "Muslims are anti-semitic" would be bigoted, does that mean someone saying "Besides, the Muslims in India could care less about the whole Arab/Jew thing. They hate the Hindus." would be kinda a bit that way as well? After all, it's making out that Muslims just have to have something to hate en-masse....

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Kick for Shakti... n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

13. Thanks for being honest about your perspective Shakti.

This is the problem in a nutshell:

"Because the Arabs, the Muslims in general, and the Palestinians in particular, are educating their people, their youth, to hate us, to dehumanize us, to demonize us, to deny our basic rights."

The writer of this needs a good long look in the mirror, and some "reality" counseling.

When the region's nuclear superpower feels like a weakling, what can anyone do? How many more arms before they feel strong? How many more dunams have to be sacrificed? How many more actual Jim Crow laws in place? How many actual apartheid walls? How many young men in jail? How many kids have to go to bed hungry?

People who hold this view need some serious psychological help. Israel's propaganda has had unfortunate impact on people today. It is mind boggling that anyone today can look at the modern state of Israel and see "oppressed" rather than "oppressor," "dehumanized" rather than "dehumanizer."

What percentage of Israelis and Israel supporters would you guesttimate honestly belive this (even if they wouldn't cop to it in polite company?)

[pelsar]

18. the percentage?....

to a degree..probably 80-90%......the idea that the Palestenains and arabs in general are taught to see the jew as "the other". We've seen enough videos from Hamas, enough discussions on various arab TV stations about us, to get the idea that in general were not "wanted" in this area. Even your posts make it clear that jews dont belong here and are no more than european colonialists......

[Vegasaurus]

19. (Even though many Israelis are on the third or fourth generation....still "colonialists") nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

22. You are so right. "Those damn movies. If Hamas would quit showing them

everything would be fine and dandy."

"we never try to kill civilians"

"We left them profitable greenhouses"

"Israel pulled out of Gaza and they should make a go of it"

"a land without a people for a people without a land"

"it was a most generous offer"

"there is no such thing as a palestinian"

"Palestinian schoolbooks (videos, sermons, you fill it in) teach them to hate us"

and, of course, Pelsar's classic (join in with me dear readers...)

"It's all EGYPT's FAULT!"

When you have suffered what these people have suffered -- land stolen, family members murdered, injured and tossed in jail for years on end, daily humiliation, education stoppages, unemployment and the lack of basic human rights, you don't need a freaking video to tell you what's what.

Nice try.

Apart from your attempt to disseminate more bogus propaganda, I am asking seriously, what percentage of Israelis share this sum-zero thinking?

(please note that i am not claiming this is racist stuff that shouldn't be published. I think it's probably pretty representative thinking, and to me, it shows exactly why Palestinians are damned if they do and damned if they don't.)

[Shaktimaan]

24. I have a question.

When you have suffered what these people have suffered -- land stolen, family members murdered, injured and tossed in jail for years on end, daily humiliation, education stoppages, unemployment and the lack of basic human rights, you don't need a freaking video to tell you what's what.

Then why do they make them?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

28. Dunno. Why do IDF soldiers extinguish their cigarettes on palestinian kids bodies? nt

[pelsar]

25. we remain "dehumanized".....

You asked to know what israelis feel that way and when getting an answer your reply is to negate those feelings....sort of saying, whatever those israelis feel simply doesnt count...

to clarify...your saying our viewpoint is simply irrelevant.......i guess its similar to the 1,000 of attempts at murdering israelis as being no more than "lame".
______

a simpler response as to why:
Since the establishment of the State of Israel a merciless genocide is being perpetrated against Muslims and/or Arabs.
The conflict in the Middle East, between Israel and the Arabs as a whole and against the Palestinians in particular, is regarded as the central conflict in the world today.
According to polls carried out in the European Union, Israel holds first place as “Danger to world peace
9/11 was caused by the zionists/israelis/jews
Kassams really dont count... continued attempts at murdering israelis is just considered "lame"
the jews have no history here
israelis need arab blood for passover....
______
I really could go on, but your own response really says it all

[Shaktimaan]

23. I would say that

it isn't that anyone looks at the modern state of Israel and sees it as being oppressed. Rather, they see Israel as a state who stands alone, surrounded by enemies who may never accept the Jews as "belonging" in Palestine. They have a sense that it is their military strength alone that ensures their continued survival and that by compromising their position of strength in any way they give an advantage to these enemies, who would show them no mercy if they ever had the opportunity to destroy them.

I felt that this letter was important because it opened a window into the psyche that drives some classic Israeli fears. The history of the Jewish people has been one of relentless persecution and exile, and the history of Israel has burned some hard lessons into the culture of Jewish Israelis. For decades, Israelis have been hearing one basic message from the Arab world, that they will press any advantage, use any ruse, violate any agreement, basically do whatever is necessary to rid the middle east of Israel. The fact that this message often takes the form of the worst kind of anti-semitic propaganda does nothing but reinforce the feeling that it isn't what Israel DOES that angers the Arabs but who the Israelis ARE that drives this unending commitment to anti-zionism.

You ask how many more arms before Israel can feel strong, etc. But it obviously isn't about military strength and it certainly isn't about punishing Palestinians. It is about seeking more than a modicum of temporary security for Israel. If something else worked better than having a strong military, or better than the security fence then Israel would be using that method instead.

But when Israelis see the anti-semitic propaganda that the entire Arab world feeds its youth, (NOT just the Palestinians, places that have never been affected by the conflict and people who have never laid eyes on a Jew), when this anti-semitism is not a reaction to oppression but a badge of honor worn for its own sake, and places like Iran hold conferences questioning the holocaust, they see their need for a strong military and policies that allow them to hedge their bets as entirely justified.

If Israel and the Jews are not oppressed today in the middle east it is only because this military and these policies exist. If we truly want the Israelis to relax their harsh policies and show the Arab world a face other than that of a soldier then their fears will have to be acknowledged and alleviated. If the Arab world continues to relish in demonstrating their belief that Israel is living on borrowed time, if every concession Israel makes for peace is held aloft as a symbol of Zionist weakness, if Israelis actually have to HAVE a fucking wall to prevent suicide bombers from blowing up local buses, then it will be a long time measured in young men jailed and hungry children before Israel feels secure enough to lower its gun.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

29. But Shakti

"For decades, Israelis have been hearing one basic message from the Arab world, that they will press any advantage, use any ruse, violate any agreement, basically do whatever is necessary to rid the middle east of Israel..."

Do those people not see that it is *Israel* who does this things, including massacreeing a village with women and kids to drive home its point?

Shakti, what I hear your writing is that Israel wants to BELONG. Can those people not see that if it wants to BELONG it must behave like a neighbor??

I'm not saying that attitudes would change overnight, but surely, you can see that the longer this goes on, the worse the atrocities, the less likely it is that Israel will ever "belong" among its arab neighbors?

I do not dismiss the long history of persecution against Jews. Not one iota. But Israel isn't the a defenseless weakling, awaiting the next pogrom. It can't behave that way when it's the worlds __th largest nuclear power. That's just insane.

I'm sure there is a psychological term for the kind of "projection" about which you write--when someone attributes their own characteristics to the other. Your descriptions DRIPS with dysfunction. Is that not evident to you?

In any case, the sum zero thinking that you describe is very sad indeed, because Israel will never break the Palestinians. I've shared the quote from Al=Jazeera: Israel has taken their food, water, livlihood, eduction, movement -- everything but their breath. They won't bow.

It will be interesting to see how far Israel goes, and how long before it stops thinking of itself as a moral nation.

[pelsar]

31. but do you....

I do not dismiss the long history of persecution against Jews

but you do seem to dismiss the arab attempts and continued threats against israeli jews as irrelevant (or lame)....be it localized ethnic cleansing, local massacres and continued attempts to kill israelis......

and to take your quote: the arabs and the Palestinians combined wont over run israel either....and it will be interesting to see just how low the Palestinians will go in their attempts to kill israelis...(though admittedly shooting children in the head at close range is pretty "hard to beat")....but then they dont claim any western morality do they.....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

33. Pelsar you know full well what I believe.

I think that the rocket attacks are means of violent resistance against ongoing occupation and siege, not acts of anti-semitism.

They're not shooting rockets at Sderot because Jews live there. If it diminishes your guilt to believe that, feel free.

These people believe that the only way to make you withdraw is to make it so painful to continue, that you have no choice. Hezbullah is the model, and the belief is that the price of continuing the occupation of South Gaza became too high and Israel withdrew. Your gov't's actions in South Lebanon bore out all that those extremists groups believed.

I believe that palestinians have a right to resist occupation by any means. I am clear that the evil of the 40+-year occupation (characterized by scores of thousands murdered, land theft, massive imprisonment, scores of thousands maimed, property destroyed, education interrupted, long-term denial of basic human rights) far, far, far outweights any resistance to it. I think those who focus on "wrong resistance" are barking up the wrong tree.

But be clear that I also think that non-violent resistance would far and away be the most effect means of ending Israel's brutal occupation.

My vision of resistance would be that every Palestinian would walk to the wall near their community or the Erez checkpoint, sit and say, we're not moving until you withdrawl. I envision every civilized nation joining in complete cultural, economic and academic boycott, I envision harsh economic sanctions, I envision world-wide divestment in Israeli owned business.

When Israel withdrawls and makes amends and reparations, when there are 2 viable states (or a single secular, democratic nation)... if there are attacks on Jews as Jews, I will lead the chorus of condemnation.

[pelsar]

35. you miss the point entirely

its not a matter of what you believe...its a matter of what the jews of sederot and of israel believe........if you cant (and i dont believe you do)......"walk in their shoes"...and continually deny their view point as "wrong" or irrelevant"....you'll never get peace.

I believe that palestinians have a right to resist occupation by any means.

..and that is why the israeli left has no confidence at all in the Palestinians...and why the Palestinians lives are so miserable and if history is any lesson, its going to get worse for them, be it at the hands of israelis or at the hands of their own leaders.....

gaza and lebanon were "easy" withdrawls as was the sinai, neither threatened the heart of israel......the westbank is different story......

btw if sederot was an israeli arabs village....do you honestly believe the jihadnikim would be shooting at them?

[Vegasaurus]

36. Good luck with that world wide divestment of Israeli owned businesses

guess people don't need medical imaging, much of the computer chip technology or any of the other high tech advances made by Israel.

Let's see that divestment.

[Violet_Crumble]

40. I didn't realise Israel was the only place that produced high tech gadgets n/t

[Vegasaurus]

32. Change overnight?

What a joke.

Arabs have NEVER allowed Jews as their neighbors, ever. Think that what change? How?

Even when Jews lived in Arab countries, they were persecuted, killed or forced to live as dhimmi.

What makes you think there would ever be a change, when the efforts to kill as many Jews as possible is celebrated as national lore, when suicide bombers' mothers are thrilled that their sons died as martyrs, and will go on nationalwide TV to celebrate their deaths?

[Violet_Crumble]

39. What a load of garbage...

Arabs have NEVER allowed Jews as their neighbors, ever. Think that what change? How?

Gosh, the Israeli-Arabs of Tamra in Israel would disagree with that. And I think the Jewish woman I read about who lived there with a family would disagree just as strongly. Not to mention Israeli-Jews like Amira Hass who have lived in the Occupied Territories. Facts help to stop people from making absurd and blatantly untrue absolutist comments that are usually aimed at demonising an entire group of people...

I doubt you have any clue as to what the Palestinian people think, and yr attempts to paint them as a bunch of raving antisemites is pathetic...

[Shaktimaan]

42. That's in Israel, right?

V, she was speaking in general. Take it for what it is, the entire Arab middle east is devoid of Jews. Sure, maybe there's a few families whose neighbors don't mind them somewhere in Morocco. But the "Arabs" as in "the Arab states" have a sad history of intolerance when it comes to other non-muslim cultures within their midst.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. It's in Israel, and I didn't spot it exluding Israel from what it said...

I'm sorry, but since when do Israeli-Arabs not qualify as Arabs?

Also, I've asked you some questions further up in the thread. Will you be answering them?

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Nothing bigoted about saying the Palestinian people are 'raving antisemites', right?

Let me guess. The Palestinians make you say such hateful things about an entire group of people?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

37. Shakti,

PM me if you ever respond to this.

[Shaktimaan]

4. Quick question...

did you actually read the linked article in its entirety, or just the snip I posted here? Because it was not comparing Palestinian resistance to "Jim Crow Laws" at all.


But besides that...

If home demolitions are Jim Crow, what are synagogue demolitions?

Is throwing Jews off of land where they've lived for centuries somehow different than it being done to Palestinians?

I am unaware of anyone saying that Palestinians did not live in Palestine before '48. If they didn't live there, how would this person explain all of the Israeli Arabs?

Why are the olive trees specifically only Palestinian?

The occupation is many things, but fascist is not one of them.

Israeli actions certainly can make Palestinians change their tactics. For example, have you seen many suicide bombers lately?

And FYI... in the 90's, Palestinian terrorism increased exponentially from previous years. They were in no way, "less violent."

Lastly, I am not ashamed to have posted the letter, because I read it and did not misunderstand it.

[Douglas Carpenter]

5. the "open letter" article completely rejects the two-state solution or any solution

except increased expansion and land confiscation and increased repression, The website completely rejects the two-state solution or any solution except increased expansion and land confiscation and increased repression.

I just wish that those who are against a peace settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians would admit it. And stop lying about.

[Shaktimaan]

7. I certainly missed that.

I saw it as criticizing the idea of a Jew free Palestinian state while Israel allows Arabs to be citizens. He is arguing (as I see it) either for a Jewish presence in any Palestinian state or the transfer of Israel's Arabs.

Again, I am not providing this as an articulation of my own views but as a way to increase understanding of "the other's" fears and justifications. And I certainly hope your last sentence does not refer to myself.

[Douglas Carpenter]

11. If the settlers wish to become citizens of a new Palestinian state and

the settlements actually end all racist discrimination against Palestinians and the Israeli state accepts the return of approximately 450,000 diaspora Palestinians (which equals approximately the number of illegal settlers now living in Occupied Palestinian Territory) to live inside Israel as Israeli citizens - that would be one thing and might possibly be a point of negotiations. I don't think (just my opinion) that most Palestinians would have a major problem with it.

If one is thinking more idealistically (some would say utopian) and believes that any Israeli citizen (including recently arrived diaspora Jews) and any Palestinian citizen (including recently arrived diaspora Palestinians) should be able to live wherever they want between the Jordan and the sea -- that might be negotiable as well.

But what you cannot have and will not work is either the status quo of settlements and infrastructure, much less the expansion of settlements and infrastructure incorporated into Israel operating by and for Israelis only dividing up and dissecting the West Bank into nonviable cantons. Already the new massive road and other infrastructure systems which connect throughout the West Bank, around Jerusalem and in the Jordan Valley have effectively cantonized the Occupied Palestinian Territories into disjointed population centers in which a viable and contiguous and independent state is becoming or some even believe already has become improbable. Just as almost no one imagines Maale Adumin or Gilo and other major settlement blocks on Occupied Palestinian land to be removed or turned over to Palestinian sovereignty -- it is only a matter of time before the massive expansion throughout the Jordan Valley and a the rest of the West Bank that all the road systems and infrastructure which cuts up and dissects the Occupied Palestinian Territories into disjointed and non-economically viable population centers will likely be similarly institutionalized.

[Shaktimaan]

27. curious...

and the Israeli state accepts the return of approximately 450,000 diaspora Palestinians (which equals approximately the number of illegal settlers now living in Occupied Palestinian Territory) to live inside Israel as Israeli citizens

why this part? you seem to be suggesting that if Palestine has to take some Jews within its borders, then Israel should have to take an equal number of Palestinians. what is the point of that?

since the settlers have been living in a specific place from before the establishment of a Palestinian state, (from the time when this land was de facto unclaimed territory), if they were willing to give up their israeli citizenship for a Palestinian one, then what right does Palestine have to evict them, or to even put conditions on their remaining in their homes?

In other words... if the settlers abandon their Israeli citizenships, then don't they have the same right to live there (presumably within a new palestinian state), as any of the Arab Palestinians do?

[LeftishBrit]

8. I'm sure you didn't realize this; but Reuven Koret is VERY far right

He says in this article that he does not think there could be a peace treaty in the next 100 years. But this particular article doesn't give all his views. This is someone who thinks that Sharon and even Netanyahu weren't right-wing enough; who votes for parties to the *right* of the Likud.

Here is an article from a couple of years ago:

www.http://web.israelinsider.com/views/htm8123

Excerpts:

Nyet, Nyet, Yvette?
By Reuven Koret March 27, 2006

...

My relative silence perhaps can be traced to the trauma of 10,000 Jewish citizens brutally expelled from their homes, fulfilling the betrayal of the electorate that voted in Ariel Sharon in 2003 against Mitzna, who advocated unilateral withdrawal. All of those who voted for Sharon, or who celebrated his victory, were made to look like fools. Fool us once, shame on you. Fool us twice, well....

I wasn't fooled, because I didn't vote for Sharon. I endorsed Sharansky's immigrant party, and then Sharansky up and joined Sharon. Shame on me.

I have not been completely silent. In November I called for the need to reinvestigate the Rabin assassination, since the evidence had become overwhelming that Yigal Amir did not act alone and was just a pawn in a far-reaching conspiracy, a coup that brought Peres, blissfully briefly, to power. ....


So here we are, less than two days before this somnambulant election. The nation walks like sleepwalkers to a cliff, and most seem quite content -- with iPods and earbuds implanted -- to plunge merrily to their demise by surrendering and abandoning high ground, an ever-increasing Arab birthrate, and a steadily deteriorating Jewish belief in the justice of our cause, our right to exist in our homeland. The willingness to accept the insult of daily rocket attacks is just one more sign that we as a nation are losing our will to survive and fight for our rights.

I have another confession. Last election, though I endorsed Sharansky, since I admired and respected him as a man, in the end I voted Benyamin Elon's National Union party. When I was in the voting booth and those little blue papers were spread around me, I decided that I was going to vote for a man and a party with whom I most resonated ideologically. I was an early protester in the Zo Artzenu anti-Oslo protest movement. I blocked roads with Beni Elon. I locked arms with him. I stood for what he stood for.

Beni Elon had created a kind of manifesto on what he believed. I don't think he has changed very much in his views, and the Arabs now seem to be validating his perspective. Beni Elon says that there cannot be two sovereignties west of the Jordan. He argues that the capital of a Palestinian state is destined to be in Amman. As Hamas and fundamental Islam takes over the "Palestinian Authority" and brings the idea of a two-state solution into disrepute, it is becoming clear that there is no living with such a state and such a people, at least not at close quarters....

.....
But I am not sure I can vote for Beni Elon, even if he is one of the few people in the Knesset I can respect, for his morality, eloquence and the courage of his convictions.

I am not sure I can forgive him for not fighting enough for Gush Katif and Samaria. He and his colleagues, in the end, went like sheep. They did not march to the Gush, as they promised. They did not sufficiently struggle for the homes. They lost heart and they did not lead. They played fair and they played by the rules. And look where it got them.

Beni Elon is a unifier, a mensch. He wants a strong and unified right. For that, even as he discovered he was suffering from cancer, he exhaustively sought, and eventually signed, a deal with the National Religious Party, which was even more cowardly and ineffectual when it came to defending the citizens to be expelled. And in making the deal with the NRP, Elon sacrificed a key plank of his party's platform, which calls for the transfer -- a euphemism for expulsion -- of Arabs (with compensation, leave "voluntarily", etc.) from west of the Jordan River to its east, to join the majority-Palestinian nation there.

So how could Beni Elon accept expulsion of Israeli Jews and give up the idea that expulsion of Palestinian Arabs, bent on destroying the Jewish State, is a moral and necessary act?
......



LB: I'm afraid I wouldn't trust this man further than I could throw him!

[LeftishBrit]

14. sorry; made a mistake in the link

It's:

http://web.israelinsider.com/views/8123.htm

though I don't recommend reading it if you value your digestive system!

[Ken Burch]

16. Also, in the same link the man announces he was an early protestor in an anti-Oslo movement

Thus marking himself as a reactionary and an opponent of any settlement the Palestinians could ever possibly support(it goes without saying they could never be expected to accept anything SHORT of Oslo).

[Englander]

17. He does like to "spell it out", doesn't he?

Like Ann Coulter, or Richard Littlejohn;

Child Sacrifice, Palestinian Style
by Reuven Koret (November 13, 2002)

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2110

Time to face Mecca
By Reuven Koret September 14, 2001
http://www.israelinsider.com/views/articles/views_0133.htm

Transfer, now and then
By Reuven Koret October 29, 2001
http://www.israelinsider.com/views/articles/views_0182.htm

Disengaging from delusion
By Reuven Koret April 18, 2004
http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=ViewsPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Article%5El3530&enZone=Views&enVersion=0&

[TomClash]

20. I actually find this very amusing

I don't find the ranting and raving of this lunatic very interesting, or the ME history lesson, which is the Israeli version of Ahmadinejad on Central Europe circa 1933-45, but I do find the indirect attack on the US amusing; "We shall be forced to overcome the Arabs, and the Persians, and if necessary we shall be forced to overcome you and your masters, if you insist on forcing us into a situation of existential vulnerability." Good luck with that - Trident II's deliver their payload from the Mediterranean in about seven minutes. What a clown.

[msmcghee]

21. I thought I had clicked on "redstatepatriot.com" there for a minute.

I've seen posts from you and many other DU'ers ridiculing any criticism by the US of Iran's warlike or nuclear intentions as hyperbolic propaganda intended to support Bush's burning desire to bomb them. This when Iran's leadership has repeatedly bragged about how they could take us on in any military confrontation and that Israel would be wiped from the earth in any military conflict with them.

But here, an Israeli citizen writes an open letter trying to explain to Condoleeza Rice what the world looks like to a Jew from inside Israel. Remember, Rice is the hated Bush's Sec of State - a "warmonger neocon" - who has been smeared and trashed relentlessly across DU forums for 7 years.

But, it seems that macho war-talk about nuking other nations can become acceptable on DU under certain conditions.

"Good luck with that - Trident II's deliver their payload from the Mediterranean in about seven minutes."

I would think any talk about nuking another nation, would be seen as unacceptable and repugnant on DU - even when the target of that talk is a sworn enemy of the US. But I guess if a Jew says something about defending Israel - then hell, it's time to start talking about deliverin' some payloads. Fuckin' A. :thumbsup:

[LeftishBrit]

30. I hope you find it similarly amusing and clownish...

when conspiracy theorists imply that the American government *is* controlled by Israel.

Of course America *is* a far more powerful country than Israel - which makes these conspiracy theories utterly loony!

As for Koret, he is a far-RW fringe-nut who is (fortunately) way outside the Israeli mainstream.

[TomClash]

34. I would agree

I have repeatedly said that Israel had little or nothing to do with the Iraq War. I think Israel has strong influence on US foreign policy in the ME and sometimes that is not in the interest of the United States. That influence has been obtained in part by campaign contributions, in part by lobbying and in part by policy. But to say Israel controls the US government is a big stretch.

[bemildred]

26. "your masters"?

Did he really mean to say that to Condi?